Coil and airbag combos

[Judo]

Our first trip in the County also meant it was the first time we'd put any decent weight in. RTT and camping gear left the rear end pretty low and it felt too soft going over bumps. Too easy to hit bump stops IMO.

I will try and ID the rear springs, but fair to assume they're fairly soft - maybe the OE which is now without boge leveller too.

I love the idea of air suspension but full spring to air replacements will have to wait.

For now it's a matter of which spring/airbag combo is the way to go.....

Speaking to Airbagman, there are 2 options:

1. Standard coil assist: 400kg / 30psi
2. High pressure coil assist: 800kg / 60psi

Unloaded vehicle sits level.
We must be over 400kgs with fully loaded vehicle.

So do I just buy the 800kg airbags kit and give it a go with my current springs?

Or do I go 400kg airbags for next trip, then maybe still swap springs to something medium to HD as well?

Everyone raves about air suspension, does using soft springs and high pressure airbags get me closer to the dream? Or is it not the same thing?

Finally, does anyone know in VIC whether airbag helpers need to be engineered? I know full replacements do, but I'm praying that I can get away without engineering for helpers?

Options welcome! :cool:

[manic]

A big sag with RTT and camping gear = time for new springs, no? Perhaps try a new pair on rear with a slightly higher rating, your old ones might be knackered.

I tour with same kind of camping weight attached to a 90 and it holds up well. Terrafirma +2" medium duty rears. Have only hit bump stops when getting caught out on fast dirt roads. With above set up the ride is harsh unloaded, but it is a 90 so less forgiving. I have some soft springs and takes me about 30mins to swap rears.

Interested to hear about bags.

[benji]

The heavy duty air springs may be a good option.
If your happy with the ride when empty, then I wouldn't be changing it.
My cousin has just got the 30psi bags for when towing his camper. With little weight in the back of the car is still not quite level. ... though a noticeable improvement.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[steveG]

Measure up the wire diameter and number of coils and that will give an idea of what is already in it. If you could easily pull one to measure free length and then compare with measured installed height and a quick drive over the weigh bridge to get an actual weight would allow you to calc it properly but any info is better than nothing for a start.
Helper bags don't require engineering AFAIK.
I've got a few sets of springs here that you can play with if you want to come for a drive.

Steve

[Judo]

Well I slept on it and have also realised the 30psi and 60psi bags are actually the same airbags, but the high pressure one comes with a protective sleeve and the cost is not much different. So I'm going to purchase the airbags and install them with the extra protective sleeve in existing springs and see how much pressure I need to level a full vehicle.

Worst case I end up with different springs to keep the airbags at a lower pressure and retain an extra protective layer on the airbags.

[steveG]

Just be aware that they aren't an air spring and you don't load the vehicle up and then pump up the bags to raise it. You either need to pump them up before loading, or load, pump, and drive a bit so everything settles.

Steve

[Judo]

Thanks I didn't realise it was quite like that, but I guess there in-lies some differences between full air and helpers. No big problem though, the intention is not to raise and lower other than once before a trip.

Hoping to get away Queens bday weekend with the airbags in so I'll decide if I need to try different springs after that. :)

[Holmesy68]

Be careful. I am currently arguing for warranty for my bent chassis in 2013 130DC. In the absence of any cause both the dealer, Bundaberg Motor Group, and Landrover are scratching for someone or something to blame. They have pointed to non genuine accessories, namely air bags and an aluminum tray.
The tray weighs about 250kg, the tinnie on top 80 odd kg. In the back I had an outboard, 2 empty engels and fishing gear. I was towing an off-road van, ( Australian Off-road Camper, Quantum) with a ball weight of 170kg connected to a non genuine Hayman Reese towbar, another issue. I was informed that it was overloaded. How they reached that conclusion without weighing it I don't know.

[copba]

I've got polyair bags in the back of my 110 Defender, they work well in levelling out the rear with a big load. For normal driving lightly loaded I run about 5 psi in them, when I first put them in I noticed a very slight harshness, but I don't notice it now and it rides well empty.
The most pressure I've had in them was about 20 psi (I think the max is 30 psi) and that was with the car completely full and a trailer on the back when I was moving house. I drove 4000 km like that, and they worked great. I think they lose a little air over time, so just check the pressures occasionally, I noticed mine was drooping a little on the drivers side rear with the heavy load, turns out it had less air than the passenger side bag did :o

[DeeJay]

Be careful. I am currently arguing for warranty for my bent chassis in 2013 130DC. In the absence of any cause both the dealer, Bundaberg Motor Group, and Landrover are scratching for someone or something to blame. They have pointed to non genuine accessories, namely air bags and an aluminum tray.
The tray weighs about 250kg, the tinnie on top 80 odd kg. In the back I had an outboard, 2 empty engels and fishing gear. I was towing an off-road van, ( Australian Off-road Camper, Quantum) with a ball weight of 170kg connected to a non genuine Hayman Reese towbar, another issue. I was informed that it was overloaded. How they reached that conclusion without weighing it I don't know.



Have you read this yet??


UNSEALED 4X4 ISSUE 023 (http://www.unsealed4x4.com.au/issue023/?utm_source=ActiveCampaign&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Toyota+HiLux+vs+Nissan+Navara&utm_campaign=Unsealed+4X4+Issue+023+-+Send+002#205)

[steveG]

Be careful. I am currently arguing for warranty for my bent chassis in 2013 130DC. In the absence of any cause both the dealer, Bundaberg Motor Group, and Landrover are scratching for someone or something to blame. They have pointed to non genuine accessories, namely air bags and an aluminum tray.
The tray weighs about 250kg, the tinnie on top 80 odd kg. In the back I had an outboard, 2 empty engels and fishing gear. I was towing an off-road van, ( Australian Off-road Camper, Quantum) with a ball weight of 170kg connected to a non genuine Hayman Reese towbar, another issue. I was informed that it was overloaded. How they reached that conclusion without weighing it I don't know.

Don't think it will be an issue for Judo as his is a County so well out of warranty ;)
Also, I've yet to hear of County that has had chassis issues, but there are definitely a few 130's around that have.

For your sake I hope your tray was mounted in accordance with the landrover document or they've probably got something to use.

Out of interest, where did it bend?

Steve

[Judo]

I would love to claim a few things on warranty right now. :D

I'm curious what driving you have done in the lead-up to the chassis bending? Hard off-roading, or just highway?

Also, I agree with the article above. I'm not looking to use the airbags for a way to overload the vehicle. Less weight is always better and I intend to get over a weight bridge at some time to make sure I'm not out of control. :)

[numpty]

A couple of weeks ago I installed Firestone Coilrites in my 130, complete with outer kevlar sleeves. This will allow pressures up to 60 psi :o

I am experimenting with tyre pressures and bag pressures at the moment so no definitive opinion one way or the other. As the vehicle is a camper and loaded with most of it's stuff all of the time, bag pressures around 25 to 35 will probably suffice.

[Holmesy68]

Thanks for article Deejay. The issue with Tojos bending to me is also the fact that they have leaf springs on the rear. If you install airbags in that situation
You have created another load point on the chassis that it wasn't designed for. Defenders are coil sprung, so the airbag is acting on the the same point on the chassis as the spring it is replacing, shouldn't be a problem if, as the article says, you keep within your vehicles GVM. My problem is, I was well and truly below the GVM.
The LR "assistance" line refused warranty from my first call stating that it must have been the result of an impact. There is no damage to the vehicle other than a bent chassis.
This conversation went on for 3 days while I was "stuck" at l
Lawn Hill NP ( not a bad spot to be stuck ) when finally the operator said " you probably need to talk to Land Rover". I said that I thought I was and he said, no this is just a call centre. I nearly fell over.
Really long story short, in the absence of a clear reason the dealer told me it must have been overloaded. They had the vehicle delivered to them from Cloncurry with everything I had been carrying and they didn't weigh it. Their reasoning now is only I know how it failed and I must be keeping something from them, so again, it's my fault.

Has anyone been through something similar.
My Tojo owning mates say go insurance and get it written off and buy something better. Typical.
I really want my Defender back, without the fold in the chassis. Sad thing is, I haven't had the chance to really test it off-road.

[Holmesy68]

The chassis bent right behind the cab. Where the chassis transitions from about 180mm to 140mm and the the rear shock mount is.

[Judo]

Just be aware that they aren't an air spring and you don't load the vehicle up and then pump up the bags to raise it. You either need to pump them up before loading, or load, pump, and drive a bit so everything settles.

Steve
I installed my Airbag Man (Firestone) airbags today with the high pressure sleeve as well. The high pressure sleeve is a royal PITA to install although I didn't dislocate the spring. (Would recommend that next time!)

As for your comment on height adjustment Steve - no idea what you mean! Connect the compressor to the valve, pull the trigger and up she goes at light speed! Add or remove air and up and down the vehicle goes...

I've got the RTT on and a decent amount of gear still (maybe 1/2 our camping gear?) and 15psi makes it pretty level, maybe even slightly high in the rear.

Short test drive and definitely less body roll with height up top now. Feeling good about it so far. Will give them a proper test in a few weeks. :)

Also, found a sticker on my rear springs - King Springs. I reckon 17mm and 8 turns. Yellow. Now I just need to find a data sheet for them...

[roverrescue]

Few topics in this thread ....
First inner Spring assist bags, in my experience these transform a 130. Remove the inner coil and run 110 bags inside the main coil. Honestly meh to the whole only air them up when unloaded ... They just work. My old 130 with empty tray I ran zero ish to 5psi and it handled less harshly than the inner Spring setup. With a couple of 44s in the tray plus 500kg of miscellaneous stuff and 30psi ie GVM all is well with the world.

Now with a newer 130 it's my first and likely only suspension mod...

Regarding holmsey bent chassis ... That's a can o worms!

As mentioned above how is the tray fixed to chassis. If it is hard mounted plus 170kg ball weight levering on tow hitch ... The only flex in the system is the point of bending ....

130 tray mounting it is critical to allow chassis flex...

S

[Holmesy68]

I changed my profile picture for your viewing pleasure.

[numpty]

Went away for a few days from Tamworth to the coast (Indian Head) last week.

Not sure what the 130 weighs, but under 3 tonne anyway. Seemed to ride quite nicely with 45psi in rear tyres and 30 psi in the bags on mainly bitumen roads.

Might go and get the vehicle weighed and I'll do some more experimenting in coming weeks.

Perry.

[roverrescue]

Holmesy
Do you have any pictures of how the tray is mounted to the chassis?
S

[DeeJay]

Also, found a sticker on my rear springs - King Springs. I reckon 17mm and 8 turns. Yellow. Now I just need to find a data sheet for them...

If colour codes are universal, you have standard springs. LRA has a chart.



Coil Springs (http://www.lrautomotive.com.au/contents/en-us/d665.html)

[DiscoMick]

Found a table of spring rates here which may interest you (or not):
PART (http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Spring_rates.html)
110 rear non-levelled appear to be 330 lb/in.
Interestingly, these numbers may not be identical to those in the table posted in the previous post. No idea why.

[Holmesy68]

I'll try to dig out some photos. Vehicle in Bundaberg and I'm in Rocky.

[Holmesy68]

Roverrescue,

These are as good as it gets until my solicitor tells me LR are going to fix it.

The tray is solid bolted to longitudinal rails which are bolted to cross members with teflon spacers which are bolted to the vehicle cross members at the appropriate 4 locations.

The tray is about 1800mm long.

Holmesy

[roverrescue]

Holmesy,
Truly I feel for you and wish you all the best with your legal resolution. I would be thinking your solicitor should be talking with the tray builder as well as LR ... That tray substructure "appears" unyielding ... Depending on how well it was attached to the chassis and I presume the answer is "very well" ... The tray builders have induced a stress point right where it bent. The usual MO for 130 failure from way back when is for the front mount points to tear away from the chassis as the chassis tries to flex (load from tow hitch magnifies that flexing)
If the front mounts are super solid and can't tear away the force will go somewhere....

Your loads are not excessive ... The problem is not going to have been overloading ....

S

[Holmesy68]

Thanks for the feed back. Will keep it in mind going forward if I am get too pigheaded.

[Chenz]

I put King Springs and Airman airbags in the rear of my 130 2009 Puma. While getting this done I also had double shocks fitted. With my Trayon Camper weighing 450kg dry then adding the extra XXXKg that SWMBO loads in the change in the ride is incredible.

I can run it up to 40psi when loaded then when back in town with the camper off drop it right down to about 10psi

The shot below shows the setup. Happy to discuss further if required.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/923/rBuqUM.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnrBuqUMj)

[steane]

I installed my Airbag Man (Firestone) airbags today with the high pressure sleeve as well. The high pressure sleeve is a royal PITA to install although I didn't dislocate the spring. (Would recommend that next time!)

As for your comment on height adjustment Steve - no idea what you mean! Connect the compressor to the valve, pull the trigger and up she goes at light speed! Add or remove air and up and down the vehicle goes...

I've got the RTT on and a decent amount of gear still (maybe 1/2 our camping gear?) and 15psi makes it pretty level, maybe even slightly high in the rear.

Short test drive and definitely less body roll with height up top now. Feeling good about it so far. Will give them a proper test in a few weeks. :)

Also, found a sticker on my rear springs - King Springs. I reckon 17mm and 8 turns. Yellow. Now I just need to find a data sheet for them...

I will be interested to hear how you go off-road with the airbags. I had real issues with the things stopping the springs from compressing fully and preventing the shocks from working effectively. Result was plenty of crashing and banging in certain types of terrain. Only way to prevent it was to remove the valves and fully deflate them. Pulled them out after the last trip across the Simpson and went from 270lb to 320lb springs. Airbags now sit on the shelf with three sets of barely used springs, but the sussy now works well, sits flat when loaded and doesn't have a harsh ride.

[Holmesy68]

Cheng,

In my brief experience, that suspension set up would melt their tiny brains. Don't get me started.:censored:

Out of interest, how much overhang do you have from the end of the chassis to the end of the tray?

[Judo]

I will be interested to hear how you go off-road with the airbags. I had real issues with the things stopping the springs from compressing fully and preventing the shocks from working effectively. Result was plenty of crashing and banging in certain types of terrain. Only way to prevent it was to remove the valves and fully deflate them. Pulled them out after the last trip across the Simpson and went from 270lb to 320lb springs. Airbags now sit on the shelf with three sets of barely used springs, but the sussy now works well, sits flat when loaded and doesn't have a harsh ride.
Aiming to get away 11-12 June. I'll report back.

[manic]

I had real issues with the things stopping the springs from compressing fully and preventing the shocks from working effectively. Result was plenty of crashing and banging in certain types of terrain.

That's been my concern when looking at bags. It still don't get it. If you are trying to avoid your vehicle bottoming out on the bump stops, adding bags will make your suspension bump stop a lot earlier, except the bump stop is now the bag. I'm sure its a more cushioned stop but wouldn't a wild bump on a dirt road smash you into those bags hard and early, well before the spring has done enough compression to take enough force out of it?

As I said before, the rear springs on a defender are easy to swap. If you have some chassis stands: Jack up the axle, stands under chassis, remove wheels, drop axles to full extension, remove springs, replace.

It depends how you use your vehicle day to day but you could whack in some tough springs before a big trip and return to soft springs when you get back. Not quite as fast as inflating an air bag but better for the ride, certainly offroad.

My 2 cents on Holmesy's 130. I'd say that the tray extends past the rear cross member too much for it to take much weight back there. I would be reluctant to hang anything beyond the chassis rear cross member. The amount of leverage the back of the tray would have on the chassis rails is clearly enough to apply frightening amounts of force.

I would only see the chassis failure as a Land Rover issue if it happened on an approved tub/tray. Who ever built and bolted the tray on should have established a weight limit for the tray and if you can prove that you were under that limit, they are liable for the damage. Good luck with it, hopefully your back on the road with a fresh one soon.

[Chenz]

Cheng,

In my brief experience, that suspension set up would melt their tiny brains. Don't get me started.:censored:

Out of interest, how much overhang do you have from the end of the chassis to the end of the tray?

720mm. My camper has all the weight - water tank, fridge, stove storage aux battery etc. up front near the headboard of the tray.

I had the guys at Tip Top use the most heavy duty tray they had and mounted it so as the weight was as evenly distributed as possible.

I have had this setup go cross country west east across the Simpson off-track over spinifex hummocks and crossing 000s of dunes of all sizes and the ride was great compared to my old 200 Tdi 110

[frantic]

The only argument I can see lr using is what another poster said about weight past the rear x member. If they can say you had 400-500 or more kg positioned past the rear ( 170+ for trailer, 60 for outboard, 50 for boat and 1/2 the slide ??kg )and only 200 in front, along with no limits by the tray manufacturing company they may try and get out.

[Holmesy68]

I have just received a response from LR solicitors. The argument hasn't got that technical yet. They are saying that I have non genuine non approved accessories fitted including ARB bullbar, Safari snorkel, etc etc.
They are no where quoting weights and measurements. They did however mention that the tray extended past the rear axle. It would be pretty short if it doesn't.
The battle goes on. :soapbox: