I have found LED headlight bulbs to fit D2

[PhilipA]

While looking on Ebay I found some LED headlight bulbs that looked like they would fit in the confined space of a D2 so I took the punt and bought them.
They certainly are bright and the LED position is the same as QH bulbs so they have a good low beam cutoff. I noted that the same bulbs were sold by another mob in Germany.

I have shown below the installation and what the beam looks like. please note that the installation shot shows them upside down as the wire input should be to the bottom. The beam shots have flared badly as to the eye they have the LH upward cutoff on low beam.
The bulb has an Oring seal so the rubber boot is not necessary or possible to fit. So far they look great but I have yet to take a drive but they are brighter than my 130/90s.
109415

109416

109417

109418
Regards Philip A
Here they are.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/151710869810?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[stevo]

Will be interesting to see what they are like on the open road, let us know please.

[discorevy]

^^^x2. Also interested to know if oncoming traffic flash their lights at you when your on low beam although this shouldn't happen with effective cutoffs . although refractive light etc..

[loanrangie]

Impressive output for 2 little LED's.

[PhilipA]

Impressive output for 2 little LED's.
Despite the box there are actually 4 leds in each bulb.
2 on top for low beam and 2 on the bottom that are added for high beam.
Regards Philip A

[PhilipA]

Well I went for a drive and didn't get flashed from a line of traffic coming the other way.

The lighting tends to be a bit patchy, however and I will have to find a wall with a flat surface to see if the alignment is OK as I think the RH light is too far to the right. I noticed a bit of reflection from signs on the right side of the road but not really much. The cut off is not as defined/ consistent as with stock bulbs though they do have a defined left shift on low beam. I looked at the traffic coming the other way and the light didn't seem to reach high enough to dazzle drivers

They certainly put out the lumens on high beam although the 6000K colour temperature tends to wash out colours etc.
Regards Philip A

[Roverlord off road spares]

What happens at pink slip time, do you sneakedly pull them out for the inspection. Also are they ADR approved?

[PhilipA]

They don't usually check but AFAIR they are e marked as they are sold in Germany , and they are really strict over there with a yearly ADAC check.
Regards Philip A

[loanrangie]

They don't usually check but AFAIR they are e marked as they are sold in Germany , and they are really strict over there with a yearly ADAC check.
Regards Philip A

But the listing states not for use on Audi,Merc, BMW,VW so that rules out most of the DE vehicles.

[PhilipA]

That is because of the bulb failure feedback on those cars.
The German site sells resistors that emulate Q H bulb wattage.

Regards Philip A

[Roverlord off road spares]

I get a few emails every month from Chinese LED manufacturers wanting us to import their stuff, when I ask for the ADR approval they play dumb .
The prices they are asking means the reseller could make a killing.

I can just imagine getting sued for selling a non compliant light, if it was proven it caused the death of another road user. A risk I'm not prepared to take.

[Pippin]

I put in a pair of Narva H4 60/55W Intense Maximum Legal Blue (ADR approved) which give me all I need on country roads a big improvement on standard so why bother trying LED's.

[PhilipA]

Well I can tell you that the high beam of the LED bulbs is MUCH brighter than even 130/90 bulbs which are MUCH brighter than premium 60/55s . IMHO they are a much better proposition than HIDs that some run and are cheap. They also have instant start up, and take only 40watts total. They reduce the necessity to place light bars or spotlights on the front.

The "improved " bulbs you are referring to give just a little more light than stock bulbs, the major difference being light temperature ( Kelvins). I have them in my Jazz, after having tried them in my Disco. Even the manufacturers concede this with the Osram specs for lumens being the same as stock bulbs.

The low beam at the moment is quite patchy but still bright, although the cutoff is good enough that I have not been flashed even in Sydney in Friday night traffic, and if I were going to be flashed it would happen then I assure you. I have yet to see if this can be improved with a re aim.

When you state that those bulbs are good enough for you, please consider that as you get older your night vision deteriorates greatly and old codgers need all the light they can get.

Regards Philip A

[d2dave]

please consider that as you get older your night vision deteriorates greatly and old codgers need all the light they can get.

Regards Philip A

No argument from me on this.

[loanrangie]

Thanks for the writeup, they do look like a good proposition and comparable in price to upgrade bulbs.

[Pippin]

Well I can tell you that the high beam of the LED bulbs is MUCH brighter than even 130/90 bulbs which are MUCH brighter than premium 60/55s . IMHO they are a much better proposition than HIDs that some run and are cheap. They also have instant start up, and take only 40watts total. They reduce the necessity to place light bars or spotlights on the front.

The "improved " bulbs you are referring to give just a little more light than stock bulbs, the major difference being light temperature ( Kelvins). I have them in my Jazz, after having tried them in my Disco. Even the manufacturers concede this with the Osram specs for lumens being the same as stock bulbs.

The low beam at the moment is quite patchy but still bright, although the cutoff is good enough that I have not been flashed even in Sydney in Friday night traffic, and if I were going to be flashed it would happen then I assure you. I have yet to see if this can be improved with a re aim.

When you state that those bulbs are good enough for you, please consider that as you get older your night vision deteriorates greatly and old codgers need all the light they can get.

Regards Philip A

Hi Philip,

I must admit that I almost reached for my credit card for the LED's as I'm no spring chicken either. I just need a little more confirmation that they are OK and better.

Thanks
Nick

[worane]

X 2 wot Pippin said.
from another 'old codger'

[Grumbles]

x 3.

[DrDeath]

For what it's worth, I'm a mostly nocturnal dweller and driver and becoming a bit of an old codger myself, so lighting is very close to my heart. So I checked around exhaustively last year for good quality H4 LED's for my D1 and I got a good quality pair and installed them all quivering for action.

This is what I discovered ... things may have changed, and I would also like the brightest lighting I can get, but I concluded that LED's (and HID's etc) are unnecessary and ever so naughty ...
LED low beam was beautiful, amazing white light, much more diffuse spread, without the diffraction irregularities of halogens.
No defined cutoff to protect oncoming drivers, pedestrians, drunks, grandad, bats, UFO's etc - bit concerned.
High beam was about 0.1% brighter. Checking the current into and out of the power supplies revealed no significant increase - 2 bits concerned.
The adverts and packaging cited "dual beam" (?) 1800/2400 lumens, in such a way as to make everyone think they were 4200 lumens on high beam - 3 bits concerned, and even a bit confused by now.

Had a yarn to the (very respectable wholesaler to the trade) retailer who was as surprised as I was and rang the importer/distributer with me there ... "of course they don't put out 4200 lumens, that'd infringe the ADR's and be illegal. The high beam is limited to 2400 lumens total" - 4 bits concerned and a bit narked by now.
Turns out the high beam part of the (sealed) power supply is 'tuned down' to keep them 'sort of legal' (I'll explain later). So, great low beam, but with virtually no extra oomph on high - straight from concerned to 5 bits narked.
Didn't pass go, but the retailer apologised and happily gave me my $200 back.

Hot on the scent of the mystery, I availed myself via Messrs DuckDuckGo and Yahoo of a copy of the ADR's for automotive lighting ...
There's strict limits in light types/power/outputs for all vehicles.
LED's, HID's and higher wattage halogens are illegal in any vehicle which was not built with them standard. Part of this seems to be due to reflector designs not limiting direction and glare for other people (pedestrians, road users, grandma etc), the other is purely power/light output.
There seems to be no clear limit however on the power or light output of 'additional' lighting, as long as it's connected via a switch via the high beam circuit (or reversing switch/mech).

A few bike forums I've come across mention otherwise genial and good natured Enforcement Officers taking the opportunity when pulling over bikes to check and defect recalcitrant LED-using bikers off the road then and there. Don't know how car drivers go.

Design-wise, no after market LED systems I've seen have solved the heat dissipation problem (most tending to use dicky little office grade computer fans and very insubstantial heat sinks), and just like Landy diesels, LED's have a drastically reduced life when run even a little bit hot (I'm an electrical nerd too).

So, it turns out that the reason we have the 55/60 watt halogens, and manufacturers and retailers all try hard to get more light out of that limited power (vis a vis the copious varieties of headlight bulbs in any auto shop) is the ADR's.

I've been running 90/100 halogens in my vehicles since well before Harry Butler swapped his Landy for a wheelie walker, and I'd run 90/130's if the headlights could take the heat. Turns out of course that any illegal or unsafe mod such as higher spec bulbs void your insurance in a crash, which the insurance companies are probably well on top of.
Turns out also, that brighter low beams are not necessary - who needs intense lighting in heavy traffic or built up areas, and who wants low beam out of the city or in slow, rough terrain ?

Ideal setup in my now obviously increasingly immodest opinion is: good low beam with optional outrageously terrifying high beam (read additional lighting blutacked on the front). The conclusion that I've drawn is that I do like a brighter low and high beam, but that I can use any amount of LED lighting on high beam (who'd want the trouble of HID since LED's came of age?) - and LED spotties are made for purpose, with sound mechanical and thermal construction. Something like 20,000 lumens now hangs off my front end, orders of magnitude better than any number of halogens, and I don't blind anyone.

It's also notable around rural areas like mine that lots of people are using retrofitted LED's now - really hard on the eyes for an olding codger like me, so that's another reeeeeally good reason not to go the retro-LED route IMHO ... just sayin' like ... lots of these people just don't appreciate the power of their lighting. It completely swamps oncoming lights, so you can't tell if someone's coming over the hill or around the bend towards you. I learnt very quickly not to use my LED's anywhere near built up areas, often even between rural centres 100km apart, depending on if there was more than a mere smattering of oncoming traffic.

Edit: I'm absolutely on your side Philip, but they just don't tick the boxes. All the sets I checked out last year had very similar if not exact same construction/manufacture/manufacturer. Have you been able to tell if the high beams are much brighter than low beam mate ? I note the label says "2500/3000" lumens, which makes me very suspicious that just like all the sets I investigated, they've dumbed down the high beam to a few lumens to make the total 3000 lumens, rather than what you and I would rightly expect to be 5500 lumens.

Hope some of this rambling is useful, coming up to 0700hrs, must go to bed ...

[PhilipA]

I have found the opposite with the ones I bought.

The low beams are patchy but have a pretty good cutoff, enough so that I am not flashed. The LEDs are positioned opposite each other while in a QH bulb the elements are staggered so this may have an effect.

However the high beams are really strong, which makes me wonder how they will be on the open road, regarding reflections from signs.

I have a dark stretch near my home and they are certainly bright there.

I wonder if the ones that dazzle you are HIDs as these are noted for flare. In any case regardless of the cutoff if a factory set is coming towards you over a rise they still dazzle you.
Regards Philip A

[gavinwibrow]

Thanks Dr Death - might be an as old codger as me - and Philip. I bought a set on your info, but have yet to fit or try them.

[DrDeath]

"I have found the opposite with the ones I bought.
The low beams are patchy but have a pretty good cutoff ... The LEDs are positioned opposite each other while in a QH bulb the elements are staggered so this may have an effect.
However the high beams are really strong ...
I wonder if the ones that dazzle you are HIDs ... regardless of the cutoff if a factory set is coming towards you over a rise they still dazzle you.
Regards Philip A"

Edit (sorry, I mucked up your quote Philip, and can't work out how to fix it)

My exhaustive and obsessive work with all sorts of LED's and halogens and headlights over the years suggests that the element design isn't the source of the spread pattern so much as you're being lucky enough to have a better headlight (luminaire) design, that gives the LED's a more defined spread Philip - I'm a bit envious.
I'm pleased you've got a good high beam output too (mine were virtually no difference, they kept the low beam element connected, and added just enough current (a small fraction of an amp) to the high beams to make you think they were on, but no significant road lighting) - maybe they haven't dumbed down your high beam element, and the high beam side 'fits in' well with your particular luminaire design.
You're quite right also about being dazzled by any type of light. The very yellow light of factory and aftermarket halogens doesn't blind me like LED's and HID's though. And it's easy to tell HID's as they take ages to die out, and it's only very rarely I cop a dose of them. My less than humble opinion is that there's increasing numbers of LED's being used (understandably, as they beat the others pants down), and it's these that cause problems. I'm a culprit myself, as despite my efforts not to use my LED spotties unless I'm well away from traffic, houses, unmarked photographers and international aircraft, I occasionally give some poor bugger a flash, as my LED's are so bright I haven't been able to see them coming.
Oh, another related concern: the ADR's specifically address 'daytime running lights' - the small lights we've seen introduced on modern vehicles as a safety measure - the ADR's mandate that they are switched via the lighting circuit, so that they must go out when the headlights are switched on. I see increasing numbers of people driving around now however with nifty looking little LED 'running lights', but they don't switch them off with the headlights, so they remain on and blaring most uncomfortably and dangerously into oncoming eyes.

Anyway, LED's are orders of magnitude better than the other options, and I'm very pleased you seem to have scored a decent set, and have decent luminaries to mount them in. Still a bit norty in the eyes of the lore tho, and I do prefer my LED's as options, due to their sheer amazingly obscene light quality and quantity. And I reckon manufacturers have got miles to go before they sort out some decent heat sinking for aftermarket LED's, and that the current crop are doomed to a quite short life because of it. I hope I'm wrong though and you've scored yourself a superb lighting setup that's going to last til we're all gone to that great Solihull playground in the bush ...

Extra edit: when considering lighting, 1000 lumens LED is very roughly similar to 100 watts halogen.
So, given an average LED spottie puts out from 5000 to 10000 lumens: it is so easy to put up 20 X 100watt halogens on your front end.

Extra, extra edit: sorry, just occurred to me that putting 2 x 2500 or 3000 lumen LED headlight elements on the front of a vehicle is equivalent to using 5 or 6 x 100 watt halogens as a low/high beam ... much too bright for safety or comfort no matter how they're mounted or aimed I spose, especially when we remember the ADR's mandate 55/60 watt halogen (or equivalent) as the absolute maximum light energy output.

Don't know what the answer is for us chronologically advanced beings Philip ...

Hope some of that's useful for us old codgers anyway ...
Regards,
Adrian

[Jazzman]

If you would like a good reliable set of LED replacement globs for your D2, I cannot recommend these enough. Ebay specials do not compare.

Also Qikaz 4X4 and camping are a great company to deal with.

D2 - H4

Low Voltage H4 LED Conversion Kit 12/24V (http://www.4x4andcamping.com.au/low-voltage-h4-led-conversion-kit-12-24v.html)

D2a - H7

LV0883 - LED H7 Headlight Conversion Kit Low Voltage (http://lowvoltage.net.au/p/8715634/lv0883---led-h7-headlight-conversion-kit-.html)

You will notice these do not have a cooling fan, instead they have a heat sink. The reason is the cooling fans have proven unreliable in this application. The H7's in the link show a braid wire heat sink, but this is the old design. The H7 in fact have the same heat sink as pictured in the H4 link.

[DrDeath]

There's no doubt that Lumileds are a good quality chip. I'm sorry to say, but after much research, these ones are very typical of the oft berated evilbay type product, and in fact can be found in several guises and brands on that very marketplace.

Unfortunately a lot of luminaire manufacturers use good chips like Cree and Lumileds, then mount them in pretty ordinary or even shoddy luminaires.

And alas, both of these are also still illegal under the ADR's.

I also note the H4's are advertised as low/high beam, but have only 1 light output rating (4000 lumens), which again makes me suspicious that the 'high beam' is not much brighter than the low (perhaps by only supplying the high beam with a tiny current to make it look like its on, or sharing the same current between the hi and lo beam chips).

That's not necessarily a problem if the headlight design lifts and throws the high beam well, but I still don't like manufacturers misrepresenting their goods. And 4000 lumens on low beam is still equivalent to about 4 x 100watt halogens.

If you track these luminaires back to the importer then the run of the mill mass producing mainland asian manufacturer, you find a current rating of 2.1 Amps. This means the chips are consuming and producing about (2.1A x 12V) 25 Watts worth of heat. And once again, they only provide one current rating, not two, as they should if the the dual beams are at all valid.

With current technology, 25 watts of power in is likely to produce in reality only about 1250 to 2500 lumens out (contemporary consumer products produce about 500 to 1000 lumens per 10watts with current LED technology, allowing for losses and construction imperfections). So the manufacturers/importers/retailers again spaketh porcine.

In any case, the mounting has to dissipate at least 25watts of heat, which is a hell of a lot in solid state electronics like LEDs. If the high beam is higher rated (which in my experience it won't be), then it may even have to dissipate more (50watts?).

It's akin to having a 25watt soldering iron solidly and permanently connected to the module - a lot of heat, which has to go somewhere before it cooks the chip. 70 degrees might be considered an absolute maximum working temp for these chips, and even that temp significantly reduces their life and reliability. And these poor little things, just like their vast numbers of cousins, are mounted within a nice comfy, smallish space, with absolutely no air movement around them. The only way out for the 25 watts of heat is via the aluminium billet it's mounted on, then straight out the back trouser leg .... which in this case seems to be covered in a thick, cosy plastic thingie (though it could be a heat transferring plastic, but not likely at the quality and price). I would suggest that the thick cosy insulating plastic thingie dramatically ups the temp inside, but helps to make things feel all cool and rosy for us poor unsuspecting customers on the outside.

In summary, they're still illegal, produce maybe 200 watts (poss 400) each halogen equivalent output, are built along some fairly shonky lines, and their advertising is dishonest.

Reasonable quality, built for purpose, not too expensive LED spotties will give you about 2500 lumens (250w QH equivalent) for your 25 watts with a much more solid and reliable construction and no road or legal tensions.

Sorry to be the bearer Jazz, but it wouldn't be right to not say anything. Anyway, I hope I'm utterly wrong, and they give you many years of good and reliable service mate.

And I'd welcome any feedback from any electrickal engineers if I've made any significant blues in the figures.

Cheers

[DrDeath]

Whoops, sorry, posted it twice somehow.

[Jazzman]

They have been great so far. Also easy to install. Mate has the Low Voltage H4's in his patrol the H7's are in the Subaru and the H7 Ebay specials are in my D2a.

The H4 has a 8 chips in it. 4 for low and 4 for high. The low beam has a shield on one section. It is hard to explain but you can tell by looking at them they project the light differently between beams. Perhaps this explains why the rating is the same for low beam and high beam. There is a mechanical difference not an electrical difference between beams.

To be honest i didn't get mine for their brightness. I got them because i'm sick to death of paying an extraordinary price for halogen bulbs that do not last. I don't really care they don't pass ADR's. They 100% do not blind other road users.

I do agree manufactures are pushing the limit of the heat sinking. Lets assume they are not pushed so hard they are going to fail prematurely. The only issue is than whether they are bright enough, i can tell you from my experience they are. Regardless of Lumens and Watts. By the way Watts and Heat are not the same thing.

What are we discussing hear? If you want bright lights turn you high beam driving lights on. This is not what low beam lights are for.

I can tell you these Low Voltage brand units are far superior to the ebay units I purchased first, that are currently still running in my D2a.

[nismine01]

Right, I bought a set and fitted them, haven't driven at night yet.

Daytime, I found reflection off road signs on low beam and on my sighting wall there seems to be no cut off to the right. It is virtually a flat bottomed V of light.

I'm going to get SWMBO to drive down the road and back while I drive towards her. If there is a problem I have an idea to remedy it.

I can't argue about the high beam, ultra bright and a long range driving light beam.
I also can't argue about the light output, I don't know the legal technicalities.

Regards

Mike

[PhilipA]

Daytime, I found reflection off road signs on low beam and on my sighting wall there seems to be no cut off to the right. It is virtually a flat bottomed V of light.

If you are talking about the ones I bought to start the thread, just be sure that you installed them right way up. They can be installed upside down.

The inlet wire should be on the bottom not the top.

Regards Philip A

[DrDeath]

The H4 has a 8 chips in it. 4 for low and 4 for high. The low beam has a shield on one section. It is hard to explain but you can tell by looking at them they project the light differently between beams. Perhaps this explains why the rating is the same for low beam and high beam. There is a mechanical difference not an electrical difference between beams.

To be honest i didn't get mine for their brightness. I got them because i'm sick to death of paying an extraordinary price for halogen bulbs that do not last. I don't really care they don't pass ADR's. They 100% do not blind other road users.

The only issue is than whether they are bright enough, i can tell you from my experience they are. Regardless of Lumens and Watts. By the way Watts and Heat are not the same thing.

What are we discussing hear? If you want bright lights turn you high beam driving lights on. This is not what low beam lights are for.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[I cannot get the hanga these quotes]

You're absolutely right Jazz, the hi/lo beams are made via mechanical means. That's to enable them to work with our OEM headlight luminaires which are designed for switched dual filament lamps that also have shields around them. They have to switch to utilise the appropriate reflecting surfaces. The ones I bought unfortunately kept full current to the low beam array and just added enough trickle to the high beam array to make the eye think they were full on when viewed directly (ammeter and road test unearthed the scam ... ah, I mean the reason for the poor high beam). I just flagged that for peeps to watch out for.

I share your disappointment around the short lives and high costs of halogens too. That's the major reason I change any vehicle filament lamp I can find to LED's (I had both my halogen low beams fail at once a while ago - about $50 and it took ages to track it down, as it never occurred to me that could happen). I share some of your regard for the ADR's too - I've run 90/100 halogens forever. Just mentioned them in light of Roverlord's comments around legal and insurance risks. In the name of objectivity, honesty to myself and balanced info for any interested parties though, the ADR rules exist for very good reason - to ensure sensible and safe vehicles and driving conditions. And it's important for people to know they can be fined or incarcerated if they're unlucky enough to be interviewed at a uniformed roadside pit stop or to have caused a crash, injury or death. And ultimately, two 3000 lumen low beams are roughly equivalent to 6 x 100watt halogens poking people in the eye, no matter what type or quality of luminaire you house them in - hence the ADR's.

You're dead right about heat and watts too Jazz. However in electronics the two terms are frequently associated with each other as they're a very useful and accurate ready reckoner. For eg, lamps, heaters and air conditioners are rated in watts consumed/transferred. When designing and calculating heat production and dissipation in components such as solid state devices like transistors and LED's etc, we relate voltage, current, watts and heat. Heatsinks and other thermal entities such as peltier coolers/heaters etc are commonly rated in degC/W (degrees Celsius rise/fall in temp per watt input). Therefore a headlamp LED rated at about 3000 lumen output at 30 watts consumption is taken to produce about 30 watts worth of heat (very little of the energy it converts is emitted as light).

And it seems we also absolutely agree that low beams do not need to produce lots of light - which is why I still get a bit toey with a pair of LED low beams producing the equivalent of about 6 x 100watt quartz halogen lamps, no matter how good the luminaires they're mounted in ...

I researched, I wanted 'em badly ... I researched, I bought 'em, I installed 'em ... I fiddled and twiddled and researched ... I realised the error of their ways ... alas poor Yorick ... in the interests of objectivity and balanced info I thence did holdeth mine hard earned lessons up for all to see ... and alas, 'twas hard indeed 'pon us hordes of LED lovers languishing lazily late in the lunar loop ... 0300hrs - better go to bed !