Engine swaps

[jason young]

We have just got a 1963-66 109 series 2a pickup for my son's first car.
It has a 4cyl petrol motor.
I am a little concerned that it will be a little gutless for him on the highway especially when overtaking.
He will be on p plates so I understand that in qld he can't drive a vehicle with a modification plated engine.
As the series 2a 109's had a 6 cylinder option, is it ok to swap a six in without a mod plate?
What other choices/options are out there?

[gromit]

To 'swap in a six' means bulkhead modifications (the 4-cyl & 6-cyl bulkheads are different)
Some parts for the 2.6 are getting difficult/expensive to source plus they were never a popular engine. Some have experienced problems with exhaust valves and the fuel consumption isn't fantastic.
Wouldn't changing the motor capacity mean a mod plate was needed ?

The 4 cylinder could be modified to get more power (cam, extractors etc.) but a bigger issue may be the brakes......

Colin

[Cannon]

My son & I did a '69 2a SWB with a 2.25 for his first car.

I prepared him early by telling him that driving a Series Land Rover is all about enjoying the journey & the scenery because you will not be flying passed it. :)

Sit in the left lane and let the other cars do the overtaking.

With this in mind I drove it to Victoria for him while he was training at Puckapunyal and had the best 2.5 days on the road I've ever had.

At no time was I holding up traffic & did have to overtake a few times, but forward planning and patience is the key.

Just slow down & enjoy the ride. :)

BTW he absolutely loves it.

[JDNSW]

I tend to agree with Cannon. The performance should be quite adequate for a P-plater, particularly if mostly pretty much unloaded. Provided it is kept in tune and good condition.

While this engine will keep going while very neglected, driving performance will be a lot better if it has both carburettor and ignition in proper order, ignition timing correct, valve clearances correctly set, brakes (including handbrake) not dragging, and fitted with suitable tyres that are properly inflated.

As a new driver, the son needs to be aware that this needs a lot more regular maintenance than modern cars if it is going to remain safe and reliable. Specifically, I would ensure at least weekly checks for brake fluid leaks (single circuit brakes!) and monthly checks for brake adjustment, loose U-bolts, tie rod end boots damaged, as well as at least weekly checks on engine oil, coolant and tyre pressure. This in addition to regular servicing.

If desired, the easiest way to increase the performance is to upgrade the engine. Most will allow the head to be skimmed for increased compression, and freer flowing exhaust and carburettion will increase maximum power, at some cost to flexibility and low down performance.

A worthwhile improvement to the brakes is to fit six cylinder (wider) brakes, and slightly more complicated, vacuum assist. Converting to dual circuit is possible, but involves significant panel work.

Hope this helps,

John

[Homestar]

As Colin mentioned, the 2.6 isn't a straight bolt in and it really is an enthusiasts engine now - I'm currently rebuilding one as I like them and can live with their idiosyncrasies, but they are VERY expensive to rebuild and finding one that doesn't need rebuilding would be quite difficult as they are getting uncommon to find these days.

IF you can find them, rings and bearings alone will set you back over a grand and if you wanted to rebore it new old stock oversize pistons are around $300 EACH!

See where this is going? I'm doing all the work on mine myself apart from machining and it's going to cost over $6,000 to get it running, but will be a completely new motor. They run sweet, and you can coax extra power and torque out of them fairly easily (but again, very expensive) which makes them really nice to drive, but they are still thirsty for what they are and require much more maintenance.

If your not happy with the power of the 4 pot, maybe a diesel conversation to a 200 or 300TDi would be better - which ever way you go, if you want to keep it legal, you'll need it engineered.

[sheerluck]

..... maybe a diesel conversation to a 200 or 300TDi would be better - which ever way you go, if you want to keep it legal, you'll need it engineered.

And the engine answers back does it? :lol2:

[QRS40]

I personally think having a not very powerful car is a good thing, for a p plater...
I have a S1 currently running a Holden 186, I may consider a swap if you still want to go 6cyl, im happy for my S1 to go back to a LR 4cyl.. PM if interested.

[jason young]

I personally think having a not very powerful car is a good thing, for a p plater...
I have a S1 currently running a Holden 186, I may consider a swap if you still want to go 6cyl, im happy for my S1 to go back to a LR 4cyl.. PM if interested.


Thanks, but from the few posts on this discussion I think we will stick with the 4 cylinder for now.

[debruiser]

I have no idea about p-plater laws. BUT i just completed a 200tdi with R380/LT230 conversion to my 1975 series 3 SWB. It goes pretty good with plenty of power. I got a 0.7 fifth gear and 1.22 trans, running on 33's and still on 4.7 diffs I can cruise at 100km/hr 2200rpmish however I dont think i would attempt an overtaking manoeuvre at or above that speed. I'm in QLD, and it walked through engineering (although I did spend a massive amount of time trying to make it look at stock as possible).

I can't comment on fuel economy yet because I haven't done extended highway work with it. As I said I've only JUST completed it; got it on the road last friday.

[cafe latte]

I would have loved a series Landy as my first car. My dad promised me a series 2a, but it never came. Buying your son a modern car he will learn nothing, but having an original series 2a with the stock standard 4 pot he will learn a lot. No it wont be the fastest car in the world, but having attended a few car accidents recently that is a very good thing indeed especially for a P plater. I cant think of a better car actually for a new driver.
Chris

[chaybra]

I have a holden 161, not that powerful and has all the bits ready to bolt in...because i just removed it from my 66"

its in melbourne tho

[ezyrama]

I have a holden 161, not that powerful and has all the bits ready to bolt in...because i just removed it from my 66"

its in melbourne tho

66", is that a series 0.5 ? :p

[Rhodi]

Hey Debruiser, was the 200tdi out of a defender or disco or have you left the turbo off it?

Cheers

[jerryd]

Hey Debruiser, was the 200tdi out of a defender or disco or have you left the turbo off it?

Cheers

The discovery motor will drop straight onto the series chassis engine mounts and it's better to use the defender turbo / manifold. So I'm led to believe :)

[chazza]

Defender manifolds are difficult to find, but the good news is that a 300tdi manifold fits the 200tdi with minor modification and the turbo clears the chassis,

Cheers Charlie

[debruiser]

The discovery motor will drop straight onto the series chassis engine mounts and it's better to use the defender turbo / manifold. So I'm led to believe :)

Sorry... havn't checked this thread for a bit!

As Jerryd stated....

Disco 200tdi motor drops straight in! Use the engine mounts from your 2.25, I've used HD diesel 2.25 engine rubbers on the engine AND gearbox. I did have to remove the battery tray - but then again I've dragged the engine forward 100mm and up 50 or 60mm to fit in the R380/LT230 combo into a shorty and still have a rear prop shaft! Quiet happily his also puts the gear lever in the right location! I moved the battery under the passenger seat, although I have seen photos on the web where they have retained the original battery location (think they just modified the battery tray).

I also took manifolds and turbo from a defender 200tdi and bolted that straight on. It was a bit of a faff fitting my 3" exhaust.... customised the dump pipe, then run the exhaust out into the wheel arch BUT you wouldn't have to do that... I dont have a pipe bender so was just using pieces of bent tube to make the exhaust.

Depending on how original you want it all to look, you could retain the oil bath filter I guess, but I went with a 200tdi air filter jammed in where the cab blower normally goes then stuck a defender snorkel on the side there so I have minimal pipework. As far as the radiator goes, you could run stock location rad OR get a defender rad bracket and have the stock intercooler there too, It'll all start getting nice and cosy in the engine bay at that point if your retaining the series bonnet. But definitely doable - google! I didn't bother with the series bonnet; I used an ex-mil bonnet and a defender grill, I also used a larger IC so placed that in front of the rad jammed as far forward as I could. I'm currently running a separate oil cooler but I'm thinking of using the 300tdi rad oil cooler.... when I get round to getting the right fittings to connect it up. Having the rad forward gives me plenty of room to work on the engine without pulling the rad out! (yes I'm trying to make maintenance easier)

I'm not sure if you'll have room to use the standard cooling fan from the disco - I seem to remember someone saying that it is in a very wrong location.... so thermo's are the way forward, but learn from my mistake and get quality ones, those ebay cheap jobbies are RUBBISH! I have a good one on the IC blowing, and the cheap rubbish pulling behind the rad. The cheap one needs changing out for a quality one.

Originally I had the 200tdi bolted up to a series box, it seems a very common setup over in the UK, but my box ended up being complete rubbish so I decided to upgrade. When the roadworthy man came to look at the car with the series box in it, they thought it was standard turbo diesel, I could have passed it off as a factory engine. THAT is how easy the swap is. if your interested my R380 has the 0.7 5th gear, LT230 has the 1.2 ratio and I'm running 4.7 diffs and 255/85r16s (33's) So 80km/hr is about 1800rpm, 100km/hr is roughly 2200rpm.

When you read all that and think "gee, that all sounds hard" remember that I'm a qualified teacher, I have no mechanical background, just tinkering in the shed. The conversions probably took me 10x longer than someone who knows ANYTHING but I got there in the end.

[Rhodi]

Thanks Debruiser, a good write up! :BigThumb:

[gromit]

OP said he was going to stick with the standard motor.


Colin

[debruiser]

OP said he was going to stick with the standard motor.


Colin

Yes he did Colin.... Rhodi asked the question.... :angel:

[gromit]

Yes he did Colin.... Rhodi asked the question.... :angel:

My bad, thread had moved on from OP's question. That'll teach me to read through all the posts.......

Colin

[debruiser]

My bad, thread had moved on from OP's question. That'll teach me to read through all the posts.......

Colin

No worries.... I've been caught out like that too! :)

[jason young]

Sorry... havn't checked this thread for a bit!

As Jerryd stated....

Disco 200tdi motor drops straight in! Use the engine mounts from your 2.25, I've used HD diesel 2.25 engine rubbers on the engine AND gearbox. I did have to remove the battery tray - but then again I've dragged the engine forward 100mm and up 50 or 60mm to fit in the R380/LT230 combo into a shorty and still have a rear prop shaft! Quiet happily his also puts the gear lever in the right location! I moved the battery under the passenger seat, although I have seen photos on the web where they have retained the original battery location (think they just modified the battery tray).

I also took manifolds and turbo from a defender 200tdi and bolted that straight on. It was a bit of a faff fitting my 3" exhaust.... customised the dump pipe, then run the exhaust out into the wheel arch BUT you wouldn't have to do that... I dont have a pipe bender so was just using pieces of bent tube to make the exhaust.

Depending on how original you want it all to look, you could retain the oil bath filter I guess, but I went with a 200tdi air filter jammed in where the cab blower normally goes then stuck a defender snorkel on the side there so I have minimal pipework. As far as the radiator goes, you could run stock location rad OR get a defender rad bracket and have the stock intercooler there too, It'll all start getting nice and cosy in the engine bay at that point if your retaining the series bonnet. But definitely doable - google! I didn't bother with the series bonnet; I used an ex-mil bonnet and a defender grill, I also used a larger IC so placed that in front of the rad jammed as far forward as I could. I'm currently running a separate oil cooler but I'm thinking of using the 300tdi rad oil cooler.... when I get round to getting the right fittings to connect it up. Having the rad forward gives me plenty of room to work on the engine without pulling the rad out! (yes I'm trying to make maintenance easier)

I'm not sure if you'll have room to use the standard cooling fan from the disco - I seem to remember someone saying that it is in a very wrong location.... so thermo's are the way forward, but learn from my mistake and get quality ones, those ebay cheap jobbies are RUBBISH! I have a good one on the IC blowing, and the cheap rubbish pulling behind the rad. The cheap one needs changing out for a quality one.

Originally I had the 200tdi bolted up to a series box, it seems a very common setup over in the UK, but my box ended up being complete rubbish so I decided to upgrade. When the roadworthy man came to look at the car with the series box in it, they thought it was standard turbo diesel, I could have passed it off as a factory engine. THAT is how easy the swap is. if your interested my R380 has the 0.7 5th gear, LT230 has the 1.2 ratio and I'm running 4.7 diffs and 255/85r16s (33's) So 80km/hr is about 1800rpm, 100km/hr is roughly 2200rpm.

When you read all that and think "gee, that all sounds hard" remember that I'm a qualified teacher, I have no mechanical background, just tinkering in the shed. The conversions probably took me 10x longer than someone who knows ANYTHING but I got there in the end.




Thanks for your info, very useful
Does the 200tdi bolt up straight onto series 2a gearbox , is an adapter needed, what flywheel and clutch combination is used?


cheers


Jason

[debruiser]

Thanks for your info, very useful
Does the 200tdi bolt up straight onto series 2a gearbox , is an adapter needed, what flywheel and clutch combination is used?


cheers


Jason

No worries!

My understanding is that a 2A g/box is the same as a 3... so I'm going to say yes BUT there are 4 extra bolts on the 200tdi that really need to be added (along bottom). No adapters needed.

I was using a series clutch on the 200tdi flywheel. Probably best to use a diesel clutch though....

A wealth of info can be found here: "200Di" diesel conversion for Series Land Rovers - by Glencoyne 4x4 (Thetford) (http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/200di2.htm)

and here: http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/200tdiconversion.htm

not trying to fob you off! Just sharing resources, this is how I plucked up the courage to do the conversion myself! :D


EDIT: Just remembered. depending on what accessories you are running on the 200tdi, you may have to buy/make a new alternator mount, I used the series mount and added a block under it to stand it off so that the fanbelt could run the water pump and the alternator. You can buy the standoff bits from glencoyne if you're not up to the challenge. I think it depends on if you want to retain the series alternator or move up to the 200tdi unit. I'm using a 200tdi alternator. Have a read of the glencoyne site, he covers everything.

[chazza]

In addition to tapping the the holes on the 200tdi flywheel housing, so that it can be bolted to the series box; it is also necessary to mark and drill for a dowel to locate the gearbox in the correct position.

When I did mine the holes on the Disco flywheel housing had to be drilled to increase them by 1mm from memory,

Cheers Charlie

[debruiser]

In addition to tapping the the holes on the 200tdi flywheel housing, so that it can be bolted to the series box; it is also necessary to mark and drill for a dowel to locate the gearbox in the correct position.

When I did mine the holes on the Disco flywheel housing had to be drilled to increase them by 1mm from memory,

Cheers Charlie

You've done one as well chazza? NICE! Did you retain the turbo? Does it go pretty well for you? I've converted to and R380/LT230 combo so I have little fear of killing gearboxes... It goes pretty good... if only I had power steering and disc brakes!

[jerryd]

^^ Do you have any pics of the installation to share ??

I've got a 200tdi motor sitting in the garage waiting to go in, I've already prepped the Series Gearbox ready. I just need a kick up the bum to start the conversion :D

I think the wiring side of it is putting me off :confused:

[Blknight.aus]

^^ Do you have any pics of the installation to share ??

I've got a 200tdi motor sitting in the garage waiting to go in, I've already prepped the Series Gearbox ready. I just need a kick up the bum to start the conversion :D

I think the wiring side of it is putting me off :confused:

what wiring? if you're coming from a 2.25D its one wire for the fuel cut solenoid.

If you've got a either of the petrols all the wiring is in place you just need to move it around a little and depending on if you have the push button start series (yes all you new luxobarge owners the shed class did it back in the 50's and 60's) one wire for the startermotor.

The draw from the TDI starter isnt massively more than petrol starter so you dont need to upgrade the wiring just to get you started but its worth doing for longevity reasons.

Total wiring requirement for a tdi is

2 wires for the alternator unless you want a tacho then its 3 and the wiring from any of the series engines is in the right spots already for any of the alternator equipped engines
1 for the fuel cut solenoid
1 for the Low oil pressure (and the one from the series is already in the right spot
2 wires for the startermotor, 1 the main feed and 1 for the signal wire.

[debruiser]

Photos... gee... there is my build thread:

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/183428-nicks-1975-series-3-swb.html

or for a sample....

here is 200tdi a bolted to a series box with a sals diff:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/354.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/DSC_0003%20copy_zpsak0wtagv.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/355.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/DSC_0006a1_zps7wanqnuq.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/356.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/DSC_0003copy2_zpsce3615b3.jpg.html)

Here is a 200tdi, R380/LT230 jammed into an 88" with a sals diff.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/357.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/12576210_10156436619525147_646258428_n_zpsklcq4qcx .jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/358.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/20160106_132238_zps7glffuxz.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/359.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/DSC_0012%201_zpsrkclgxrz.jpg.html)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/360.jpg (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/debruiser/media/1975%20S3%20SWB/DSC_0010%202_zpsdqy30xte.jpg.html)

[chazza]

You've done one as well chazza? NICE! Did you retain the turbo? Does it go pretty well for you?

Well the problem is I have been diverted onto a kitchen renovation and the S3 project is gathering dust.

Yes it has a turbo and the intercooler is set up on an angle above the steering relay; that way the panels don't need changing and the radiator can sit on top of the front cross-member.

I just have to plumb the oil cooler pipes to the heat-exchanger; do some wiring; finish the PCV plumbing and it should be ready to start.

The rest of the car needs work though and it is unlicenced,

Cheers Charlie