Rope for extension straps.

[alien]

OK brains trust, would this be acceptable?
I did a recovery on the weekend winching from below where putting a rope through snatch blocks would have been ideal.
I had to run an extension strap through a shackle to do the job.
(Actually we used 2 trees and 50mtrs of other straps to do the job).
The 20mt extension strap is now a throw away item and needs to be replaced.
This has me thinking if I could use the existing supplied synthetic rope from the TJM 12'000lb winch as an extension rope?
I'm happy to put a new rope on the winch and I could the also use the spare sheath over the top for weather/sun protection.


So what are your thoughts?
What's the best way to finish off the standing end if I do this?
When being halved is a shackle acceptable or better to use a snatch block for a bigger arc?




Let the discussion begin :)


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Tank]

OK brains trust, would this be acceptable?
I did a recovery on the weekend winching from below where putting a rope through snatch blocks would have been ideal.
I had to run an extension strap through a shackle to do the job.
(Actually we used 2 trees and 50mtrs of other straps to do the job).
The 20mt extension strap is now a throw away item and needs to be replaced.
This has me thinking if I could use the existing supplied synthetic rope from the TJM 12'000lb winch as an extension rope?
I'm happy to put a new rope on the winch and I could the also use the spare sheath over the top for weather/sun protection.


So what are your thoughts?
What's the best way to finish off the standing end if I do this?
When being halved is a shackle acceptable or better to use a snatch block for a bigger arc?




Let the discussion begin :)


http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/109911d1465127921-show-us-your-deefers-image.jpg
The smaller the arc that the rope has to travel around the more damage is done, most snatch blocks are too small IMO, but are much better than around a tree or shackle, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

The smaller the arc that the rope has to travel around the more damage is done, most snatch blocks are too small IMO, but are much better than around a tree or shackle, Regards Frank.
Something important I failed to mention in the scenario by Alien (OP) is the amount of friction involved, a well designed snatch block with a greasable shaft for the pulley wheel will add about 5% to the load and that is repeated for every pulley wheel in a setup.
The friction generated by running through a shackle could be equal to anywhere from 1/2 to double the original load.
If Nylon (Dyneema) rope were used it would probably destroy the rope with friction generated heat,
Sometimes we don't have a choice and have to do things outside the box, but it would be advisable to inspect any equipment used for damage and discard if need be, Regards Frank.

[alien]

Something important I failed to mention in the scenario by Alien (OP) is the amount of friction involved, a well designed snatch block with a greasable shaft for the pulley wheel will add about 5% to the load and that is repeated for every pulley wheel in a setup.
The friction generated by running through a shackle could be equal to anywhere from 1/2 to double the original load.
If Nylon (Dyneema) rope were used it would probably destroy the rope with friction generated heat,
Sometimes we don't have a choice and have to do things outside the box, but it would be advisable to inspect any equipment used for damage and discard if need be, Regards Frank.

Running the strap I had through shackles is why it is now in the bin.
As you said sometimes we have to do things outside of the box, as long as it's safe.

[XDrive]

The scenario you have described would be well within the capabilities of your existing winch rope, if you wished to use this as an extension and replace the winch rope with new synthetic rope.

If you need to 'cut off' the existing crimp on the end, which usually has a fitting for a bolt to pass through in order to secure the end of the rope to the drum, you can cut this off. You can then splice the rope in a normal splice, using part of your existing 'protective sheath' in the eye area of the splice.

This would then leave you with sufficient length to pass through a pulley block if required, either for a change of direction or other purposes.

Using a shackle as a roller, will destroy rope or straps as this is clearly not what the item was designed for. However, as in most recovery type situations, we need to improvise and whilst this clearly does not mean we have to cut corners on safety, we can improvise and as you have already mentioned, if we extract the vehicle and all is safe we can then discard any item which is deemed no longer 'fit for purpose' and if we need to replace these items then replacing them with something better or more appropriate may be the go.

Recoveries are rarely ever 'textbook' and so being able to recognise and limit any potential danger, whilst still being in a position to extract a vehicle is in essence what we are trying to achieve.

I undertake Recovery / Winch courses and learning to understand loads and the danger involved is as important as learning to use your equipment and adapting to various scenarios. The emergency services are always training and during the course of this training items of equipment will be removed from service, in order to make them think outside the box as items can malfunction or fail at any time. This is something which is sadly lacking in a lot of training courses.

In a perfect world we would never get stuck and if we did we would have all the right equipment all the time. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

Happy to discuss this further

Regards

XDrive

[DeeJay]

Probably worth a mention.
I'm pretty happy with myself as I just made up a synthetic "d" shackle from part of a broken length of synthetic rope I found in the bottom of a boghole up at Narbethong. Got a hell of a fright as it felt like a snake !!
I see they can be bought but there are tutorials on YouTube, so I had a go. Hopefully this will be better than sticks or rolled up newspaper when joining extensions.

Synthetic 10mm Winch Rope Recovery Soft Shackle Grey Blue Saftey SK75 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Synthetic-10mm-Winch-Rope-recovery-soft-shackle-grey-blue-saftey-sk75-/131777886084?hash=item1eae92f784:g:2iAAAOSw-RRXCzN5)

Cheers, David

[Tank]

Running the strap I had through shackles is why it is now in the bin.
As you said sometimes we have to do things outside of the box, as long as it's safe.
Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you have to do it this way, don't run it over the shackle pin, depending on which direction the pull is from you may , due to friction, undo the pin from it's thread, has happened before and resulted in a fatality, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

Probably worth a mention.
I'm pretty happy with myself as I just made up a synthetic "d" shackle from part of a broken length of synthetic rope I found in the bottom of a boghole up at Narbethong. Got a hell of a fright as it felt like a snake !!
I see they can be bought but there are tutorials on YouTube, so I had a go. Hopefully this will be better than sticks or rolled up newspaper when joining extensions.

Synthetic 10mm Winch Rope Recovery Soft Shackle Grey Blue Saftey SK75 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Synthetic-10mm-Winch-Rope-recovery-soft-shackle-grey-blue-saftey-sk75-/131777886084?hash=item1eae92f784:g:2iAAAOSw-RRXCzN5)

Cheers, David
How does that work? Do you pull the knob bit through the loop, if so what stops it pulling right back out, Regards Frank.

[alien]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that if you have to do it this way, don't run it over the shackle pin, depending on which direction the pull is from you may , due to friction, undo the pin from it's thread, has happened before and resulted in a fatality, Regards Frank.
I used the biggest shackles I had and kept the pin on the tree truck protector.
It did cross my mind the pin would undo if not done this way.
I can see how easily it could be done wrong for those who aren't focused.
I had 3 folk with little to no recovery experiance so I was constantly rechecking any work that was done.

[Barefoot Dave]

How does that work? Do you pull the knob bit through the loop, if so what stops it pulling right back out, Regards Frank.
Frank, when the rope is placed under tension, it compresses and stops the knot pulling through.

[crash]

Using a shackle as a roller, will destroy rope or straps as this is clearly not what the item was designed for.

XDrive

I would have to question this: Yes it may be true but why do all of the winches with synthetic rope run Hawse fairleads then? From what you have just stated if I were to use my winch and run the winch line not straight and it has to be at an angle being guided by the "hawse fairleads" that my winch rope will have to be thrown away after my winching episode.
A winch strap I can see it being more damaged than a rope as the rope is smaller and round and is designed to deform where a strap is more flat and would have to be folded in 1/2 to fit through a D shackle.

[XDrive]

Crash

I personally do not like or use a 'hawse fairlead'. Hawse Fairleads were designed with two varying 'camps of thought'

One camp was of the opinion that using synthetic rope on a 'roller fairlead' would result in the rope, when under tension, falling between the gaps in the rollers and either jamming the roller or cutting the rope. This has since been proven incorrect and many people actually still use roller fairleads with synthetic rope, myself included. You can buy 'poly rollers', which are a snugger fit, thus eliminating the gap even more, if so desired. Rollers should also be inspected carefully for any 'burrs' which may be present if cable has been used previously on the rollers as this may affect the synthetic rope.

The second camp was more of an aesthetic look, as more and more people wished to have a flush mount look to the vehicle, some manufacturers also 'pushed' for this to be the norm and sited reasons such as no protrusions beyond the face of the bar etc.

Some hawse style fairleads are well manufactured and take into account the radius and also make sure that the back of the hawse is not sharp etc. Others are manufactured in an inferior manner and have little regard for any of these issues. Poorly fitting hawse fairleads are also common as the opening of the hawse does not line up with the opening on the bar and therefore the rope is dragged over a sharp object behind the hawse, contributing to the wear on the synthetic rope.

The amount of friction and therefore heat which is allowed to transfer from the hawse to the rope when winching has stopped, also contributes to the degradation of the rope. Some manufacturers discourage the use of a hawse on synthetic rope for this very reason. Particularly when the rope is used at an angle.

I have seen a hawse fairlead, which had a 'gouge' in the corner that I could comfortably fit my little finger into, which was the result of one winching session, done at an angle. The rope itself also showed district 'feathering'.

'Bunching' or squeezing rope or straps into areas that are not correctly sized, such as shackles, pulley blocks and the like is one way to damage and in some cases destroy equipment very fast. As has been mentioned earlier, taking into account the correct sizes as well as radius in regards to synthetic rope and cable is something which unfortunately is overlooked when it comes to a lot of recovery equipment and recovery situations and leads to premature failure of equipment and in some cases damage to equipment, property and people.

Training, in the correct use of equipment, is also sadly overlooked. People are happy to spend vast sums of money on their vehicles and equipment and are very reluctant to spend any money on learning how to drive their vehicle correctly or use the equipment correctly.

Regards

XDrive

[Don 130]

How does that work? Do you pull the knob bit through the loop, if so what stops it pulling right back out, Regards Frank.

Frank, have a look at this video. It will explain it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP74FE4p8to

Don.

[Tank]

Frank, have a look at this video. It will explain it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP74FE4p8to

Don.
Thanks for that, quite interesting, at the end of the video another video came up demonstrating the superior strength of Dyneema rope. They used 3/8" dia steel rope which had a number of Bulldog clamps forming the sling eye and guess what the steel rope broke at the clamping point of of the last (toward centre) clamp. Bulldog clamps should never have been used as they weaken the wire rope at the clamping point.
I reckon that if they had of used a proper spliced eye on the wire rope it would have not failed as easily, and the fact that the wire rope did not part, only unwound some outer strands. Whereas the dyneema rope totally snapped and recoiled violently. A great bit of False advertising, nothing against dyneema type ropes but why cant they compare like with like, Regards Frank.

[alien]

This is becoming an interesting discusion.

Ree the rope shackles-
Would there be any reduction in the rating of any shackles made of Dyneema?
If joining 2 straps or Dyneema to a strap would the smaller diameters involved be an issue?
(I'd expect the rope would have thimbles each end.
Straps would have the normal flat sections of thier loops)

[roverrescue]

Just to quickly add into the thread
I use dyneema a lot
Lots of long range 200m plus recoveries

To make a loop for winch hook or shackle tie a bowline
It will be able to be untied with a little loving
I have tied a bowline in mid section of rope at times when needed

Obviously not as high breaking strain as splicing but on 12mm rope a bowline will not fail
And if it does ... Re tie and re think your recovery dig more high lift and pack out etc etc your load is too high

S

[Tank]

Just to quickly add into the thread
I use dyneema a lot
Lots of long range 200m plus recoveries

To make a loop for winch hook or shackle tie a bowline
It will be able to be untied with a little loving
I have tied a bowline in mid section of rope at times when needed

Obviously not as high breaking strain as splicing but on 12mm rope a bowline will not fail
And if it does ... Re tie and re think your recovery dig more high lift and pack out etc etc your load is too high

S
I have never used Dyneema rope before, but I can imagine that a Bowline or any other Knot (bend or sheet) designed for natural fibre rope would slip and fuse under the friction of slipping.
Nylon ropes are banned in the Rigging industry for that reason as well as stretch and rebound (not Dyneema), esp, in blocks and tackles, most rigging knots, which were developed for sailing ships and Hemp and Sisal type ropes rely on the fact that their surfaces offer a lot of friction and use that fact to work properly.
Heat generated by friction is a killer for Nylon and Dyneema type ropes, I have busted Nylon rope when used in a truckies hitch, you will notice when you tie a truckies hitch with Nylon that you need 2 sheep shanks to stop the loop slipping and unravelling.
When I was head rigger at Cockatoo Island in Sydney I used to build my own specialist slings and we had an accredited test facility, so I have loaded and broken many wire slings, there really is not much flyback as stretch is minimal, usually the wires in the outer strands snap, gradually (Gives a warning unlike chain or nylon), and when individual strands break they unwind (each strand consists of a number of individual wires), they do not fly back to anchor points they unwind and not at a speed that requires a high speed camera to see, all this happens slowly compared to Dyneema that parts with no visible or audible sounds, (except for the tails of the break breaking the sound barrier, you know that loud crack) and springs back to each end, I know this stuff is light and it won't cut you in half, neither will wire rope unless you are stupid enough to be straddling it and are deaf and blind. My point is that wire rope is not as dangerous as some of these experts in 4WD magazines are making out and that wire rope is much more versatile and physically surface area strong.
I have recovered vehicles in areas where Dyneema rope either would not have done the job or survived intact after the job, whereas wire rope comes through to fight another day.
I have used the 15 ton hydraulic winch on my truck to crush 4 cars (2 bottom and 2 top) down to the height of one car, with no apparent damage to the wire cable.
Point is Dyneema is ok if you nurse it and maintain it (that's if you want it to last) and only occaisonly use it, I have an inbuilt mistrust of Nylon type ropes, Dyneema included and I can't see a scenario where I would use it over conventional rigging gear, to each his own, Regards Frank.

[roverrescue]

Frank I think you said it all
" I have never used Dyneema rope before"

I have been using it for near ten years
I still use the first rope I ever bought
Yes it is frayed and tattered but it still works fine
I have broken rope perhaps five times, it just falls to ground
Good sign to reduce loads so more digging jacking etc etc

In both 10mm, 12mm and 14mm dyneema Bowlines work fine do not slip or fuse and can be undone? I have done it more times than I can be bothered counting

I carry 100m to 200m of rope on bush trips ... Try that with your beloved steel ropes !

Steve

[Tank]

Frank I think you said it all
" I have never used Dyneema rope before"

I have been using it for near ten years
I still use the first rope I ever bought
Yes it is frayed and tattered but it still works fine
I have broken rope perhaps five times, it just falls to ground
Good sign to reduce loads so more digging jacking etc etc

In both 10mm, 12mm and 14mm dyneema Bowlines work fine do not slip or fuse and can be undone? I have done it more times than I can be bothered counting

I carry 100m to 200m of rope on bush trips ... Try that with your beloved steel ropes !

Steve
Try dragging a Disco 2 over eco drains with your dynemma rope, many a time I have had to tow from a good 100m away with the wire rope dragging over the tops of at least one eco drain.
I'M not saying Dyneema rope doesn't have some good points, but it's the bad points that rule it out for me, that's why I have never used it, not because I'm biased about it, it simply would not work for the uses I put wire rope to, with no problems and I have never broken wire rope in over 40 years, so it is horses for courses, Regards Frank.

[roverrescue]

Happily
Your 45kg of 100m of wire rope
Vs less than a kg of 100m of dyneema

It might scuff over a drainage ditch but it will be okay

Your living in the past tank ;)

S

[Tank]

Happily
Your 45kg of 100m of wire rope
Vs less than a kg of 100m of dyneema

It might scuff over a drainage ditch but it will be okay

Your living in the past tank ;)

S
Maybe, but I know my wire rope will do the job I require of it, Dyneema would let me down first and every time. I could just imagine using a crowbar to lever Dyneema rope out of the folds of a crushed car and ever being able to use it again, no problem for the wire rope. If you think Dyneema can stand up to the punishment wire rope can take, then it's you living in a dream world, Regards Frank.

[roverrescue]

All good frank
But it does amuse me that you flame someone for using the wrong size pulley block or a shackle oriented vertically instead of horizontally however you are more than happy to run your sacred do not kink or twist me wire rope around car bodies to the crush them?

I'm sure if I am ever in the situation of needing to do some demolition work I'll come up with a plan

I thought we were discussing recovery? Oh and yeah I have moved a few dumped vehicles from trails (using dynema) but I didn't see the point in crushing them?

S

[Tank]

All good frank
But it does amuse me that you flame someone for using the wrong size pulley block or a shackle oriented vertically instead of horizontally however you are more than happy to run your sacred do not kink or twist me wire rope around car bodies to the crush them?

I'm sure if I am ever in the situation of needing to do some demolition work I'll come up with a plan

I thought we were discussing recovery? Oh and yeah I have moved a few dumped vehicles from trails (using dynema) but I didn't see the point in crushing them?

S
The 16mm wire rope on the scrap truck is not used for recovery (it's too slow) and it has no kinks or broken wires even though it has a hard life.
My point is there are no situations in recovery that I would hesitate to use my Disco winch wire rope for, but there are many I wouldn't/couldn't use Dyneema type rope.
As far as shackles having the pin Vertical so as the shackle can align itself with the line of pull, well that's just commonsense, I've seen what damage a shackle can do if it is not used as designed, people have died, as far as using Dyneema rope, no problems, just not for me. you seem to have success with it, I'm not telling anyone to not use it, but it does help to know it's limitations, Regards Frank.

[NavyDiver]

I have never used Dyneema rope before, but I can imagine that a Bowline or any other Knot (bend or sheet) designed for natural fibre rope would slip and fuse under the friction of slipping.
Nylon ropes are banned in the Rigging industry for that reason as well as stretch and rebound (not Dyneema), esp, in blocks and tackles, most rigging knots, which were developed for sailing ships and Hemp and Sisal type ropes rely on the fact that their surfaces offer a lot of friction and use that fact to work properly.
Heat generated by friction is a killer for Nylon and Dyneema type ropes, I have busted Nylon rope when used in a truckies hitch, you will notice when you tie a truckies hitch with Nylon that you need 2 sheep shanks to stop the loop slipping and unravelling.
When I was head rigger at Cockatoo Island in Sydney I used to build my own specialist slings and we had an accredited test facility, so I have loaded and broken many wire slings, there really is not much flyback as stretch is minimal, usually the wires in the outer strands snap, gradually (Gives a warning unlike chain or nylon), and when individual strands break they unwind (each strand consists of a number of individual wires), they do not fly back to anchor points they unwind and not at a speed that requires a high speed camera to see, all this happens slowly compared to Dyneema that parts with no visible or audible sounds, (except for the tails of the break breaking the sound barrier, you know that loud crack) and springs back to each end, I know this stuff is light and it won't cut you in half, neither will wire rope unless you are stupid enough to be straddling it and are deaf and blind. My point is that wire rope is not as dangerous as some of these experts in 4WD magazines are making out and that wire rope is much more versatile and physically surface area strong.
I have recovered vehicles in areas where Dyneema rope either would not have done the job or survived intact after the job, whereas wire rope comes through to fight another day.
I have used the 15 ton hydraulic winch on my truck to crush 4 cars (2 bottom and 2 top) down to the height of one car, with no apparent damage to the wire cable.
Point is Dyneema is ok if you nurse it and maintain it (that's if you want it to last) and only occaisonly use it, I have an inbuilt mistrust of Nylon type ropes, Dyneema included and I can't see a scenario where I would use it over conventional rigging gear, to each his own, Regards Frank.

Sisal type???? we never used sisal under any load. Manila you meant I assume.

I use Synthetic on my winch and have a spare for an extension now. Much longer and much lighter than the straps I have. I splice all my ropes to my copy of The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship which does have some synthetic knots and splices.
Not me but a splice example you might likehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTM_BTq0qXY

[cuppabillytea]

Sisal type???? we never used sisal under any load. Manila you meant I assume.

I use Synthetic on my winch and have a spare for an extension now. Much longer and much lighter than the straps I have. I splice all my ropes to my copy of The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship which does have some synthetic knots and splices.
Not me but a splice example you might likehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTM_BTq0qXY

I don't think Frank was suggesting that Sisal rope be used for load bearing. I think he was referring to it's frictional qualities only. I am sure you know full well that that is why it is used so commonly for lashing.

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

I'd look at how the snatch block was used. Instead of running the extension strap though the block, maybe you could have run the strap between your anchor point and the block. I've done it like this, and I had to run a second strap from the snatch block to a tree off to the side to put the angle of the recovery the way I needed it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/930.jpg

[Tank]

I'd look at how the snatch block was used. Instead of running the extension strap though the block, maybe you could have run the strap between your anchor point and the block. I've done it like this, and I had to run a second strap from the snatch block to a tree off to the side to put the angle of the recovery the way I needed it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/930.jpg
Nice drawings, better than mine, but you are not gaining a Mechanical Advantage by what you have sketched, except for the fact that you have twice the length of wire off the drum which gives you more pulling power. As we all know the maximum pull generated by the winch is with only one layer on the drum. with each consecutive layer of rope on the drum the pulling power of the winch diminishes, to the point that a fully loaded winch drum will only be rated at half or below it's advertised pulling capacity.
I would have in that situation, if I was able to get in front of the stuck vehicle, which you may not have been able or possible to do.
Attached the snatch block to the stuck vehicle and winched towards yourself (to advantage) and halving the load on the winch, there is a very interesting Pod Cast on 4x4 Earth on "16 4wd myths busted", part on snatch blocks starts around 37 minutes and goes to around 40 minutes, plenty of other interesting stuff as well, I will post up the Link, Regards Frank.

Link to Pod Cast: http://ec.libsyn.com/p/6/0/4/60415bce26cc1378/16_4_wheel_driving_myths_.mp3'd13a76d516d9dec20c3d 276ce028ed5089ab1ce3dae902ea1d06ce803fd3c9557852&c_id=12032659

[Tank]

Sisal type???? we never used sisal under any load. Manila you meant I assume.

I use Synthetic on my winch and have a spare for an extension now. Much longer and much lighter than the straps I have. I splice all my ropes to my copy of The Admiralty Manual of Seamanship which does have some synthetic knots and splices.
Not me but a splice example you might likehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTM_BTq0qXY
Sure is a lot easier than splicing 5/8" 7 strand IWRC, couldn't understand why he didn't fit a thimble to the eye, the clevis pins on those hooks are very small and most winch Dyneema ropes that I have seen break, break at that point on the clevis pin. If a thimble is not used I would just make the eye and fit a decent size shackle with a pin with some girth.
My point about synthetic rope is that most of my winching is in recovering broken down or stranded vehicles in the high country behind Moruya, where I live.
Tuesday night I had to drive up to the top of Mericumbene FT to rescue a bloke and his son in a "Holden Captiva", amazed he got so far (almost to Mongamulla turnoff) from the DRY Creek Camping area and FT.
When we got to them we found that he had torn the guts out of all of his bash plates, tore his fuel tank to pieces, tore out the t/shaft centre bearing, the underside of this SUV looked like it had been chromed.
Because it was an Auto and we couldn't get to the front half shafts the front axles were winding up and causing drag, plus that these ****boxes weigh nearly 2 Tonne and he had 1/2 tonne in the back it was a nightmare to tow.
A fair few times I had to winch him up over some Eco Drains and the wire cable was digging grooves 45cm deep through the tops of some of the real steep ones.
Ended up stuffing my winch when the young bloke guiding the cable back onto the drum didn't bother because it was too hard (it really was) and the cable bunched up on one side of the drum and jambed and busted the steel bar cross bars which then jambed the drum against the bent in side plates and broke the driveshaft from the motor to the gearbox, so a new winch is on the way. My point being there is no way that you could have dragged Dyneema rope over them Eco Drains like the wire cable did.
So it's horses for courses, Dyneema got it's place, but not in the hard core stuff I put my winches through, Regards Frank

[Not_An_Abba_Fan]

My suggestion was to avoid running the strap through the snatch block so you wouldn't damage the strap, nothing to do with mechanical advantage or anything else.

[Tank]

My suggestion was to avoid running the strap through the snatch block so you wouldn't damage the strap, nothing to do with mechanical advantage or anything else.
I understand what you were saying and I wasn't suggesting you did anything wrong or out of the ordinary,just adding some suggestions and dangers to be aware of, Regards Frank.