Tensioner snapping off the mount TDV6

[koffeetemple]

Hi Folks

Recently i had the tensioner snap off its mounting on my 2007 Disco3 2.7l TDV6 which has caused potential early death to my motor. I want to know if this is common and has anyone has Land Rover admitted to it being a fault.
I have attached a PDF file with photos of the issue

Thanks for your help

Damien

[Grentarc]

I am guessing you have not too long ago had the timing belt replaced?
This usually happens when the oil pump housing is not replaced with the updated version (and the original is reused) when the belt and tensioner are replaced.

[sheerluck]

Common, no. There are a number of examples here and the UK, but as for getting Land Rover to admit it's a problem? No such luck.

Have you recently had your belts changed?

[shanegtr]

I wouldnt say its a common failure, however it is certainly a known problem within the various Disco forums.

[LRD414]

Recently i had the tensioner snap off its mounting on my 2007 Disco3 2.7l TDV6 which has caused potential early death to my motor. I want to know if this is common and has anyone has Land Rover admitted to it being a fault.
Have a look at these Disco3 threads. One includes a poll and of the 61 respondents 39% had not yet changed the timing belts when the mount failed.
The other (very long) thread suggests that LR sometimes assisted with partial costs.

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Cam belt tensioner mount failure survey (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic80001.html?vote=viewresult)
DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Cam belt tensioner mount broke!!!!...... (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic57636.html)

Cheers,
Scott

[sheerluck]

Though just to point out, it was LR UK that would sometimes contribute.

[justinc]

This is the reason I always replace the oil pump on all pre 2009 engines/ vehicles. If the customer refuses to do this then it won't be me that will be fitting his timing belt. .... 😕☺

Jc

[PerthDisco]

Thanks to this forum I changed the oil pump housing at the time the belts were done on my MY08. I had to force / cajole / beg the Indy LR shop to do it as according to him he had never heard of it.

When you take in any research or info off the web they absolutely hate it I have found.

The new part has the same part number as the old I believe which is evidence enough of a sneaky admission of guilt.

When I picked up the car I looked at the old part with the mechanic who noted the significant difference in the design. According to him though the boss would not mandate this for other cars booked in ahead of mine for same job.

A fair part of the fault probably lies in over-torquing but who would ever take responsibility for that?

[howie]

I have my my08 booked in at a dealer for the belts and other stuff to be done. Talked to the workshop forman about said oil pump issue, never heard of oh wait one time early on it happened once , engine failure, but not know because it was a procedure issue . So from what I can gather a over tension ? Or something similar. A long story short all the independent shops I talked too all said replace it. So got one for them to fit just have to push the point for them to fit it maybe. My 2 bobs.

[kodakman7]

I had the unfortunate event last year of.the tensioner bolt itself failing about 5 mths after we did the belts and tensioner ourselves. It is a 2006 car and only.75k on it at the time. Boss on the oil pump is fine, but tensioner bolt sheared at housing level..... same result.though.:'(

Sent from my E5823 using AULRO mobile app

[PeterOZ]

Thanks to this forum I changed the oil pump housing at the time the belts were done on my MY08. I had to force / cajole / beg the Indy LR shop to do it as according to him he had never heard of it.

When you take in any research or info off the web they absolutely hate it I have found.

The new part has the same part number as the old I believe which is evidence enough of a sneaky admission of guilt.

When I picked up the car I looked at the old part with the mechanic who noted the significant difference in the design. According to him though the boss would not mandate this for other cars booked in ahead of mine for same job.

A fair part of the fault probably lies in over-torquing but who would ever take responsibility for that?



I had same issue, tried to get my indie LR people to do the housing when I got my belts replaced. Asked them serveral times about it and each times was told I'd be wasting my money as they had never seen one go.


Now interestingly about 12 months after the timing belts were replaced they also fitted a new alternator for me. I'd assume this tensioner has to be re-adjusted which would further stress the flange/housing?


Last Sept the engine beat itself to death when this tensioner bracket failed. Cost me $13k for a low km Territory engine. Indie LR would not come to the party in any way, shape of form.


I now get my work done by a different LR Indie closer to Brisbane City area.


It is now such a known issues globally, I am surprised there has not been a class action against LR, how many people just in Australia have had to fork out for a replacement engine? Anywhere between say $12k and $25k a pop!!

[justinc]

Alternator replacement doesn't require the tim8ng belt to be touched at all.

Jc

[Thinkbig]

I had same issue, tried to get my indie LR people to do the housing when I got my belts replaced. Asked them serveral times about it and each times was told I'd be wasting my money as they had never seen one go.


Now interestingly about 12 months after the timing belts were replaced they also fitted a new alternator for me. I'd assume this tensioner has to be re-adjusted which would further stress the flange/housing?


Last Sept the engine beat itself to death when this tensioner bracket failed. Cost me $13k for a low km Territory engine. Indie LR would not come to the party in any way, shape of form.


I now get my work done by a different LR Indie closer to Brisbane City area.


It is now such a known issues globally, I am surprised there has not been a class action against LR, how many people just in Australia have had to fork out for a replacement engine? Anywhere between say $12k and $25k a pop!!

Although I sympathize with your engine drama last year, I think I need to stick up for the LR indie that you originally used.

I recall your original posts back in August last year when your engine went. I have cut & pasted your comments at the time:

1st Post from 1st August 2015:
Was advised I could or could not do the housing. Think it was additional $1200 and as I was pressed for cash I elected to not have that replaced.

I suspect that is what has let go.

2nd post from 1st August 2015:

I'm not sure if exact amount but it around that number.

I had a partner at the time who was totally $$$ fixated so spending another $1200 really set her off 😡
She is gone so don't have that annoyance.

They did advise to do it and I had read on here and disco3 site about it

Always wiser in retrospect. I just hope not too much other damage was caused.

Motor was turning over freely so guess that is encouraging.

Onto the tilt tray tues and wait to find out the $$$ so I can talk to the bank!!

I have used this indie for several years now and they have been fantastic and I don't believe they deserve to be bagged out when they did advise you at the time to do the housing.

[PeterOZ]

Note I did not mention the name in the post but you delighted in dragging out an old post. I did ask them serveral times if the housing needed to be replaced.


Each time was told they had never seen one go and not to waste my money!!


So no I won't stick with them thank you very much!! :censored:

[PeterOZ]

arrogance of some people astounds me. Yet another keyboard warrior!

[Disco-tastic]

arrogance of some people astounds me...

Me too...

[PeterOZ]

interesting that instead of people trying to help each other here all they want to do is attack when you comment on something or have an opinion.


Keep up the great work lads, you must be proud of yourselves.

[PhilipA]

I wonder if anyone has tried welding a new bit onto the block.

Seeing that it is an inert piece of the block it should be possible to rebuild the mount.
I have seen an old Aston Martin block where the steps for the wet sleeves were rebuilt so I wonder whether it can be done once the block is stripped.

Maybe not possible economically on a built up engine , but geez you could get a lot of specialist welding done for 10K.
There must be quite a few blocks sitting around in workshops.

Regards Philip A

[sheerluck]

Not sure what you are trying to get at there Philip, as the part that breaks is part of the oil pump housing, not the block. It's the upper left (as you're looking at it, between two bolt heads) of the nice shiny bit in the centre of this picture from when I changed mine
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110184&stc=1&d=1465946645
There's not a lot of space to weld a new mount in directly to the block (and the block is compacted graphite iron, I've no idea how easy to weld that is)

[PeterOZ]

... and with no timing belt to keep the moving bits behaving themselves the engine beats itself to death ... broken valves, pistons, con rods etc


Its a very nasty & expensive outcome due to very poor LR design on the housing and / or gorillas using a torque wrench - so I have read here.


LR put out a beefed up housing and some repairers insist that the housing must be replaced if it is the older style housing when the belts are done. Based on what I have now read and my own experience I totally agree and wish I had insisted too. Anyway I now have a very low km territory engine in mine. <15,000km

I still think LR have a case to answer to with the number of dead engines as a result of this tensioner bracket failing.


attackers in 3, 2, 1 ... :angel:

[sheerluck]

... and with no timing belt to keep the moving bits behaving themselves the engine beats itself to death ... broken valves, pistons, con rods etc

And it then becomes more expensive than it is worth to do a rebuild


Its a very nasty & expensive outcome due to very poor LR design on the housing and / or gorillas using a torque wrench - so I have read here.

Just to be pedantic, the engine is Ford/PSA in design, not Land Rover. Only the sump and baffling is designed by LR to fit the D3/D4/RRS, to match it's off road duties.
The engine is built in a Ford factory.


attackers in 3, 2, 1 ... :angel:

No attacking here! :D

[PeterOZ]

yup I know its a Blue oval hiding behind a Green oval!! :o


Still think that given LR put out a replacement oil pump housing that it should have been a recall or at the very least replace the housing when the belts are done.


When mine was coming off lease I approached LR dealer about getting the belts repalced and they were insistent that the belts were not on the service schedule and did not get replaced, I asked them that several times over a few months.


Indies have told me the opposite and that of course the belts must be replaced at 80,000 I think it is.


Surely LR have a case to answer with all the destroyed engines as a result of this bracket failing??


Can I put my hard hat and boxing gloves away now? :D

[Grentarc]

It is not just Land Rover housings failing either - quick Google showed that the Citroen 2.7 HDi suffers the same problem. I don't think the housing was a LR initiative, but rather a Ford/PSA part that superceded the original one which of course filtered down to JLR.

[sheerluck]

It's true Justin, there have been failures in the other brands that use the engine, however, they have not been as numerous as in the D3/D4/RRS.

There has been much discussion on Disco3 about the reasons why. The survey that was conducted on Disco3 found that the majority of failures (approximately two thirds of cases) was after the belt change service. So why would an engine fail that has run without issue for 7 years or 150,000km? The extra tension of a fresh belt, and new tensioner, on an aluminium part that has been heated and cooled thousands of times over it's life perhaps?

But also, the TDV6 in the D3/D4/RRS is the heaviest vehicle that it powers, by several hundred kilos. And on top of that, large numbers of owners use their vehicles to tow. So it goes from powering a car weighing 1500kg, to pulling something with a GVM of 6.7tonnes!

As for a recall, I would highly doubt it would ever happen. For a kick off, they don't have a recall in the UK, where the market is a little larger, and hence more sensitive than Australia. Secondly, most of the vehicles that this failure is happening to are 7 years old, and have dropped out of the dealer servicing network.
Those with a good dealer relationship may stand a chance of getting some sort of assistance from LRA, but given that LRA seem to be a little more "hard nosed" than their UK equivalent (and this is based on anecdotal evidence, rather than personal experience), your chances may well still be low.

[PhilipA]

Just goes to show how wrong you can be without seeing the actual issue.
I always thought that the block was alloy and a bit was broken out by the pump failing.
So the block should still be good and the damage is to the Pistons from valves hitting.
I saw a while ago that there were rebuild c
Kits becoming available in UK.
Regards Philip A

[Ean Austral]

I think if the part that screwed into the housing was just an idler pulley the part would last the life of the vehicle BUT the tensioner is spring loaded and absorbs some of the harmonics so the fatigue eventually over comes it.


I fitted the upgraded housing but you could likely use a NEW old style housing when replacing the timing belt and it would last till the next change.


I changed mine at 132,000ks but it was 8 yrs old so the belt was due. A friend crack tests metal and I got him to look at mine and he couldn't see any cracks with his machine , but it wasn't a chance I was going to take.


Cheers Ean

[sheerluck]

Just goes to show how wrong you can be without seeing the actual issue.
I always thought that the block was alloy and a bit was broken out by the pump failing.
So the block should still be good and the damage is to the Pistons from valves hitting.
I saw a while ago that there were rebuild c
Kits becoming available in UK.
Regards Philip A

There are repair parts finally becoming available at a less unreasonable price than they were. A set of main and big end bearings can now be had under $800, where previously they were Lotto win money.

You could now replace all crankcase internals (excluding crankshaft), valves, rockers, seals and gaskets for about $3300 in parts. And with labour and machining on top, and it's probably still a better bet getting a Territory engine.

[Narangga]

I fitted the upgraded housing but you could likely use a NEW old style housing when replacing the timing belt and it would last till the next change.

Cheers Ean

I had wondered that Ean but decided not to try...

[Ean Austral]

I had wondered that Ean but decided not to try...




Can you still get the old style ?


Cheers Ean

[Narangga]

Not certain but I thought that it was possible. Not worth the game of Russian Roulette though me thinks.

[PerthDisco]

My understanding was that there is only one part number and that is now the updated part. That tells you something.

[sheerluck]

My understanding was that there is only one part number and that is now the updated part. That tells you something.

I believe that there have been 5 part numbers for the same item. The latest 2 part numbers (LR013487 and LR076782) are the same uprated part, just the second was for a LR price hike, so if you have bought either of those, you're in a good place.

Some stockists may list the part using LR013487 still, and that's nothing to worry about. If you buy, and the box doesn't show one of those numbers, send it back.

[Leea]

Yep belt replaced 40000k ago and on Friday car died. Not happy

[PerthDisco]

Yep belt replaced 40000k ago and on Friday car died. Not happy

What model year and kilometres? Who did the belt replacement?

This issue is far from being a hidden secret for affected early build cars as you can see in this thread.

Any pre MY 08s would now be on their second belt change.

Have you had it confirmed the tensioner has failed?

Aside from a snafu snapped crank another failure mode is incorrectly fitted (crushed) oil filters on 2.7D engines done by service shops unfamiliar with locating the filter properly during the service but at 40,000km you may have had 2-3 services since the belt change?.

[Leea]

What model year and kilometres? Who did the belt replacement?

This issue is far from being a hidden secret for affected early build cars as you can see in this thread.

Any pre MY 08s would now be on their second belt change.

Have you had it confirmed the tensioner has failed?

Aside from a snafu snapped crank another failure mode is incorrectly fitted (crushed) oil filters on 2.7D engines done by service shops unfamiliar with locating the filter properly during the service but at 40,000km you may have had 2-3 services since the belt change?.

Model 2007 LR Discovery 2.7L
184,000 on clock when purchased, we changed belt then. Fast forward 40,000k's later. Was done in Gold Coast. Here are some photos

Paid $19k and apparently $17k to get another LR motor. PS I am a newbie and so forgive me lack of understanding.

Gutted. I live in South Coast NSW.152410152411152412152413

[PerthDisco]

Yep, that’s not great and not a lot of help knowing in hindsight from this site this is a cheaply avoidable common issue by updating the oil pump housing at same time. A good LR independent would have known such so I take your guy or gal didn’t.

The good news is an engine from a wrecked diesel Ford Territory fits but I don’t know who the gurus are in your location to go to for the change over. Search Aulro for the how to. Still going to cost upwards of $10k.

Sure others will advise

[Leea]

Yep, that’s not great and not a lot of help knowing in hindsight from this site this is a cheaply avoidable common issue by updating the oil pump housing at same time. A good LR independent would have known such so I take your guy or gal didn’t.

The good news is an engine from a wrecked diesel Ford Territory fits but I don’t know who the gurus are in your location to go to for the change over. Search Aulro for the how to. Still going to cost upwards of $10k.

Sure others will advise

I have been quoted $7k for a territory motor, but will need to transport car to the GC. I am wondering how does it go re-sale wise? And given that the car has done 225,000k's I might get that done and then the transmission might fail or something. I read that they need to be serviced every 80,000k's is that correct? I am pretty sad about all this. We are a family of 4 kids and life is tough enough let alone when this happens. When i update my next car, I am going to look up the Australian Car Reviews as they seem to have a fair bit of info for people like me.

[PerthDisco]

I’ve also seen brand new Ford Lion 2.7 V6 (same engine as tdv6) engines pop up on eBay at good price.

[PerthDisco]

I have been quoted $7k for a territory motor, but will need to transport car to the GC. I am wondering how does it go re-sale wise? And given that the car has done 225,000k's I might get that done and then the transmission might fail or something. I read that they need to be serviced every 80,000k's is that correct? I am pretty sad about all this. We are a family of 4 kids and life is tough enough let alone when this happens. When i update my next car, I am going to look up the Australian Car Reviews as they seem to have a fair bit of info for people like me.

I hear you bro and you did buy such a good family fun machine.

Gearbox ideally would be due for its second flush at 180. Hopefully it hasn’t been hauling 3tonne caravans around all its life.

[justinc]

Totally avoidable. Such a terrible situation to find yourself in, hopefully a cheapish solution is forthcoming...

[Aussie Jeepster]

Check out Triumph Rover in Lonsdale in South Australia.
(08) 8384 6933
Triumph Rover Spares - Triumph Rover Spares (https://triumphroverspares.com.au/)
No association with them, other than they have always looked after me (but I've never needed an engine!)
They have heaps of engines, but I've no idea on prices, and they certainly ship anywhere.
Sorry to hear your news.
Alan

[101RRS]

Not a lot of help I guess but they are rebuilding 2.7s in the UK - often the pistons are undamaged (but sometimes they are) but the heads, valve gear and timing chain will need replacement - not a great job but apparently has been done a few times. If interested in this option have a look and a search on RRSPORT.CO.UK • Index (https://www.rrsport.co.uk/forum/) and DISCO3.CO.UK - Index (https://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/)

They have acquired engines that had failed cranks cheap and used the top end - one guy even used a couple of pistons as well.

Good luck

Garry

[PerthDisco]

Was it the first or second belt change? If first it was well and truly overdue so you obviously knew this needed doing ASAP? Assume you negotiated the belt change in the price?

Did you buy privately or was work done via the selling car yard? Was the workshop LR experienced?

Anyone you can go back and have a chat with or push on their or your insurance on basis that excessively torquing up the tensioner led to the failure i.e. it was perfectly ok up till then. That’d be my angle with said repair shop. Worth a crack.

[PerthDisco]

Another one

LR D3 TDV6 SE MY07 Off Road Touring & Towing Vehicle *ENGINE DAMAGED - NOT RUNNING*
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink'share_fid=669&share_tid=273014&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaulro%2Ecom%2Fafvb%2Fshowt hread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D273014&share_type=t

[vbrab]

Had new serpentine belt and tensioner fitted at same time engine timing belt done.
1500K's later driving and thought the cross wind must have been strong as steering got heavy....then temp went up.
Found that head had come off the tensioner for the serpentine belt, all belt functions stopped.
Seems enthusiastic mechanic may have either not fitted new bolt with tensioner, OR overtightened bolt, partly breaking head, which later dropped off.
Found the bolt head on the tray under motor when I went to change oil next and it looked like it had been half torn off when being tightend. (overtightened)
SO new bolts always with any new tensioner and make sure not over tightened.

Sad to hear about cost of new motor.
Good Ford Territory 2.7 motor can be had for under $6k and also fits (same engine, change front pulleys and sump).



Model 2007 LR Discovery 2.7L
184,000 on clock when purchased, we changed belt then. Fast forward 40,000k's later. Was done in Gold Coast. Here are some photos

Paid $19k and apparently $17k to get another LR motor. PS I am a newbie and so forgive me lack of understanding.

Gutted. I live in South Coast NSW.152410152411152412152413

[shamirj]

Just got a quote of TRS in Adelaide for replacement engine for a D4 SDV6 with low mileage came in at $13750 + $250 for freight to Sydney on exchange basis not sure of kms but did ask for low kms, includes 'a long engine with turbos injectors & H/P pump for $13750. freight $250 exchange'.

This was for another project D4 on gumtree at the moment selling for $8000 2013 model with high kms but by the time you factor in engine, transportation from melb to sydney for D4 came in at $1272 plus labour costs just not worth it. Think its a body off for engine swap. You can pick up D4's from $20k. Shame these late model vehicles are just not worth fixing up UNLESS you can get a cheaper engine + do the labour yourself. FYI.

[vbrab]

I have been lucky so far with any "failures', but I have always changed my engine and fuel pump drive belts and tensioners at 160K or a bit sooner if I am near a service option.
Last front engine belts and tensioners done at 120k and noted that the old tensioner appeared loose to turn, so not sure what that would have been like if I was waiting until the 160k.
Have had tensioners for serpentine belts get noisy and need changing after only 40,000k.
Possible that manufacturers (LR UK) are aware that optimum life of tensioners and belts may not 160k, but to suggest more frequent chnages may increase listed running costs and make them look more high maitenance than their competitors, so they gamble with the chance that only some will fail if they suggest and extended change period.
EG: The same reason that transmissions are marketed as "sealed for life", which greatly reduces the listed running costs of the vehicle and possibly makes it more attractive to the naive purchaser (who belives that transmissions are indeed perpetual motion units).

[Leea]

So we got a 2nd hand 2010 LR Discovery Engine fitted.

Drove to Gold Coast with 1.7t Caravan and twice on the way up we got the engine fault error limp mode. Stopped turned on and off and it was cleared. On the way home it happened once. We also got transmission fault error message. We eventually got home but we will need to take it back to Canberra. It was a bit frustrating for us , just want it to work after spending the $8,750 [smilebigeye][tonguewink]

[101RRS]

I bet you got those engine faults when you were putting the boot in when towing or placing the engine under a bit of load like going up hill with a bit of power on - as you indicated it is cleared as soon as you switch off and back on.

If you do a search back through the forum on here you will find it quite common as seems to be a "design/software" issue rather than any physical issue.

With my RRS the car drives fine but as soon as I tow the camper the fault you describe starts but only when I call on the engine to deliver lots of power under load. I have learnt to live with it and I assume the ECU software reads a manifold pressure that is different to that is expected when under high load like when towing with foot to the floor. I have also learnt to put the car into neutral, switch off and restart on the road to clear the limp mode - obviously when it is safe to do this rather than stop.

When I tow I have also learnt not floor the accelerator and the issue does not arise.

garry

[Graeme]

I don't subscribe to the persistence of a software/design fault theory. I expect that between the fault codes and a thorough inspection that the cause will be identified for which I assume the fix will be covered by the warranty on the installation job.

[101RRS]

I don't subscribe to the persistence of a software/design fault theory. I expect that between the fault codes and a thorough inspection that the cause will be identified for which I assume the fix will be covered by the warranty on the installation job.

You may very well be right, but the issue only comes up when towing under load - when not towing i can drive my car as hard as I like and no issues crop up but as soon as the camper is attached they crop up but the foot has to be flat to the floor - answer is not to put the foot to the floor when going up hill or overtaking.

The other interesting aspect that denies logic is that no codes are recorded. I have specifically tested this by clearing all codes then specifically putting the car into a limp mode situation and then reading the codes - nothing there.

This problem has been reported on AULRO and was the subject of extensive discussion a couple of years back. It has also been reported on the UK sites and by UK residents on the US site.

There doesn't appear to be a physical fault in the cars or it would also crop up in no towing, high load situations but it doesnt seem too. While the issue has been recognised, no solution has been identified, other than ideas such as your views and my views have not been tested.

cheers

Garry

[Graeme]

If the pcm software still original then there could be a bug in the software that would most likely have been fixed in later versions, similar to the 3.0 D4 using CC while towing bug that put the engine into limp mode until the software was corrected.

[Htperth]

Hi all, my tensioner bolt snapped right off while driving. This is within less than a year of changing the timing belt and kit including tensioner. Mechanic says he didn't over-tighten and used correct torque wrench settings. He has applied for a claim through the parts supplier. The UK supplier asked to have the tensioner and bolt sent to the UK for metallurgical testing on the bolt. Insurance won’t cover this so am hoping the UK supplier will! Really gutted as it’s my daily and I use it for work. Thinking of legal course of action but jurisdiction may be overseas. Any tips?

[Eric SDV6SE]

Hi all, my tensioner bolt snapped right off while driving. This is within less than a year of changing the timing belt and kit including tensioner. Mechanic says he didn't over-tighten and used correct torque wrench settings. He has applied for a claim through the parts supplier. The UK supplier asked to have the tensioner and bolt sent to the UK for metallurgical testing on the bolt. Insurance won’t cover this so am hoping the UK supplier will! Really gutted as it’s my daily and I use it for work. Thinking of legal course of action but jurisdiction may be overseas. Any tips?

Are you able to get the bolt out and check the threads for any thread lubricant? I'm fairly certain the torque spec is for dry bolts. If the mechanic used the correct torque value, but used a lubricant on the threads, then the load in the bolt could have been up to 30% higher than when dry. Worth checking imho