Replacement Input Shaft,..."Durability"?

[Pickles2]

Having had Gracie break down a fair way from home with this issue, which seems to have been successfully repaired, I was wondering if, now that the joint has been greased, is this is a permanent fix, or is the problem likely to occur again,...it took 41Ks of easy driving for it to happen the first time,...anybody done more than this on a "repair"?
Pickles.

[YOLO110]

Hi Martin!

I do think your question is certainly a valid one... Did you not confirm the replacement shaft was greased?? :(:( I would certainly insisted that the replacement shaft was greased and probably would have also have got photos of it as well...

To me... simply replacing the failed part, with exactly the same part, fitted in the same way, non greased, simply means you will probably have a repeat of what you have been through in another '41Ks of easy driving'!! :confused::confused:...

I believe the only way to remove the worry of this would have been to fit one of the better designed alternatives...

Having said that... there are plenty of high mileage Puma Defenders about with not a hint of a failure!!!

[Pickles2]

No Pete, there's no worries about the replacement being greased, I think I explained in a previous post that the S/M at ULR explained the whole process to me, even the sort of grease & why etc.
I'm just wondering that now it's supposed to be "good", ....how long will it be "good" for!!?
Pickles.

[ozy013]

I was chatting to the guy's down at Les Richmond Auto, after purchasing the Hi-Tuff heavy duty rear axles and flanges, last week.

A good point was made that the grease won't last indefinitely, even encased in the collar. So if you do just replace and grease the adapter shaft, then you'll have to treat it as a service item, albeit a little further apart than the regular service intervals.

They've done a couple so far, on the older Puma's. One was very close to failing, Andrew showed me the photo's, and the other was done as a precaution, which still showed signs of fretting and corrosion.

They retro fit the Ashcroft kit; Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/mt82-output-shaft-kit.html), but are currently out of stock. Having the spline running in an oil bath should fix the issue permanently.

As mine is a 2010, with 90,000k's, this is what I'll do to fix a problem that Landrover should've dealt with during the warranty period. No spline is designed to run without some form of lubrication. Probably the reason there hasn't been a recall from Landrover, is generally most Puma's are out of warranty when this issue rears it's ugly head.
Though having said that some of these failures are happening on the later Puma's as well.

The problem with this is you don't get a "hint" of a failure, it just goes bang and then no drive. It's not a matter of if it will happen, just when. well that's my opinion anyway. Did you get the dealer to take a picture of the new greased shaft Martin? Did they show you the old one?

[Pickles2]

I was chatting to the guy's down at Les Richmond Auto, after purchasing the Hi-Tuff heavy duty rear axles and flanges, last week.

A good point was made that the grease won't last indefinitely, even encased in the collar. So if you do just replace and grease the adapter shaft, then you'll have to treat it as a service item, albeit a little further apart than the regular service intervals.

They've done a couple so far, on the older Puma's. One was very close to failing, Andrew showed me the photo's, and the other was done as a precaution, which still showed signs of fretting and corrosion.

They retro fit the Ashcroft kit; Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/mt82-output-shaft-kit.html), but are currently out of stock. Having the spline running in an oil bath should fix the issue permanently.

As mine is a 2010, with 90,000k's, this is what I'll do to fix a problem that Landrover should've dealt with during the warranty period. No spline is designed to run without some form of lubrication. Probably the reason there hasn't been a recall from Landrover, is generally most Puma's are out of warranty when this issue rears it's ugly head.
Though having said that some of these failures are happening on the later Puma's as well.

The problem with this is you don't get a "hint" of a failure, it just goes bang and then no drive. It's not a matter of if it will happen, just when. well that's my opinion anyway. Did you get the dealer to take a picture of the new greased shaft Martin? Did they show you the old one?
No, I didn't get any of that stuff, but if I'd have asked, I'm sure there would've been no problem, ULR have been very good. I reckon I was that stressed after being stranded for over 3 hrs on the side of the road, and then enduring "Captain Slow" towtruck driver, as a consequence of which, "just" getting Gracie back to ULR before they closed, I forgot all about anything else!!
Pickles.

[ozy013]

Sorry Martin. I was probably tapping the keys whilst you posted your reply.

I just re read my earlier post. The reason I asked about the photo's from the dealer was not a matter of trust, it would be interesting to see the failure of the old shaft and the amount that the new shaft is greased.

As far as longevity of the greased shaft. It lasted 40,000k without any lubrication, so who knows how long it'll go now it's been done properly.

[Avion8]

There are some interesting topics on Defender2 on this very subject, & on the subject of greasing it should be re-greased on a regular basis, as grease does dry out/get pumped out. One poster has done his own mod with a grease nipple installed & re-serviced on a regular basis. Also seems the Ashcroft modification although seeming perfect at first sight has not got a lot of mileage since introduced & does get rid of 2 spline lands to provide the lubrication access - so some doubt long terms to how this will effect long term durability of the drive.

I would like to know how well the latter 2015 vehicles with the blue grease/lubricant dripping out of the transfer case flange hold up. I have already noticed that my blue grease stain in this area has already changed colour to a darker oil looking colour! Basically I think it is going to be a service item at about a 100,000km interval if greased!

[YOLO110]

I suppose one has to think... what happens if this failure occurs when someone pulls out across a busy highway... and loses drive with a bang... and the then gets T-boned...

Where does the liability buck stop...? :o

This has nearly another 3 years to run until the last MY16 's are out of warrantee... but perhaps they have al been greased? If so, therein lies an implicit liability to JLR for obviously recognising the issue and taking measures on the last of the breed...

I so wish they would just recall the whole damn lot... surely the profits of just a few of the latest Disco/RRS offerings would pay for that... instead of a huge law suit as a result of a fatal... :confused:

[jimr1]

This is an issue that had lots of discussion , and I think will be on going . I've had my Defender for 11months now , and it'd done 11 thousand ks So I will also be asking about the shaft at the first service . I like the rubber boot method , this should help keep the grease in . I would think without some way of holding the grease in place it will be spun out . Also grease does go hard . This is a poor design , the thing is we have have to live with it . I'm not sure what the cost to replace this shaft is once out of warranty ? Jim .

[alien]

As I've posted on other threads I looked at mine with @ 110'000 on the clock.
It was bone dry and is now greased.
The intermidiate shaft on the LT230 has O rings that will be leaking by 100'000 so the transfer has to come out around then anyway.
I'm planing on every 80'000 dropping the transfer box off for new O rings before the housing flogs out and grease the shaft while there.
Depending on service history on the Ashcroft modified shaft it may get one then, it will be few years away.

[deesse]

I replaced my shafts at about 60,000ks on my 2010 130. there was indication of a lubricant having been used, but not a lot of wear. Had I not already bought the newies the oldies probably would've gone back in. I also fitted g'nips, a grease groove, a boot & a hole in the bottom of the case to access the g'nips. Will it wear out if it's greased at each service? I doubt it. I'll prob. never find out either as somebody else now has the benefit of my toils.

[DazzaTD5]

The OP asks a valid question, which I've been asking myself and looking at valid alternatives..

Just to re-cap on the whole thing... (well only IMHO)
*All splines will suffer fretting.
*Fretting is the exchanged of metal between two close fitting surfaces.
*A mismatch in splines, rotational torque, vibration, no lubrication all increase fretting.
*The fretted material when it comes into contact with oxygen, causes oxides to form.
*Oxides are harder than the parent (original) metal.
*The oxides will encourage wear.
*The purpose of grease or oil is to prevent fretted material coming in contact with oxygen.
*Eventually yes the greased option will push out and eventually become dry.

---
So options are:
*Replace adapter shaft and collar and grease on assembly.
*Do as above and fit a tight cv type boot to try and reduce the amount of grease that eventually gets pushed out of the splines.
*Do as above and add a grease nipple (and cut a access hole on the casing) the placement of the grease nipple would have to be exact to ensure it pumps grease into the small void between the end of the adapter shaft and the female coupling.
*Install the Ashcroft kit, thus allowing oil to be fed into the splines.
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Just a note on the Ashcroft kit, the removing of the two splines on the male adapter would have no applicable effect on the load bearing ability of the splines as the female coupling already has two splines missing as standard.
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Another alternative I have thought is...
If you look at both the female coupling on the MT82 gearbox, the similar adapter shaft on the Discovery 2 auto, both have a retaining bolt once the splines are mated together. neither (over the years that Ive seen) suffer any wear. So the bolting together of the two splines obviously has a big bearing on reducing the fretting wear.
Doing a similar method would require drilling a hole down the centre of the adapter shaft, when i say "drill" this isnt just getting out your fav Makita and a long reach drill bit, the shaft is as hard as hell and would need to be done with some precision in mind. Just this step is prolly already out of my scope even with my lathe, mill. After that a long enough bolt, and then tap a thread into the head of the short bolt that retains the female coupling to the MT82 box. the end result may not even be a realistic option from both cost or an engineering point of view.... but something to ponder non the less.

I've priced the Ashcroft kit and labour a bit keener to bring it into a more realistic option and is the method I'm going to offer customers.

Regards
Daz

[jimr1]

As I've posted on other threads I looked at mine with @ 110'000 on the clock.
It was bone dry and is now greased.
The intermidiate shaft on the LT230 has O rings that will be leaking by 100'000 so the transfer has to come out around then anyway.
I'm planing on every 80'000 dropping the transfer box off for new O rings before the housing flogs out and grease the shaft while there.
Depending on service history on the Ashcroft modified shaft it may get one then, it will be few years away.
This is a good point Kyle , I agree that other parts , seals ect will need to be replace . So it will be a good opportunity to grease the Shaft . The thing is there are failures before there getting to high ks like , Pickles and other owners have found !!.. Jim

[YOLO110]

Dazza, Interesting information.

Could you fit a stainless steel shaft that would not rust? Greased before assembly of course!

[newhue]

Id imaging stainless it too weak, but im no steel dide.
My 2010 got done at 65k under warranty. It must have done a job as LR waited a week for a tool, and i got a new transfer box chucked in. At 155k the trannie is leaking oil and is going in for a fix in a few weeks. Will let you know how the shaft looks. Its about $650 in labour to fix the oil leak. But just thinking if its a 100k klm regular fix for the oil, and the shaft is fine, than to chuck another $1000 at it for the Ashcroft fix is probably not worth it. Anyone know what a standard shaft is worth. Just being lazy.

[DazzaTD5]

Dazza, Interesting information.

Could you fit a stainless steel shaft that would not rust? Greased before assembly of course!

Although Stainless Steel, like any alloy does come in a large range of grades and there are plenty of examples of its use in splined applications, it will still suffer, or rather the splines will still suffer fretting.

Regards
Daz