sdv6 alternator failure

[justinc]

Have a 165k example in today with some smoke escaping from the alternator and a nice growling coming from it.. not much fun to get these out and in, not looking forward to it😣

Expensive little suckers too!😮

Jc

[LRD414]

Was it driven in like that Justin?

Scott

[LandyAndy]

What sort of mechanic are you:p:p:p:p:p:p.
You simply wrap the alternator up with duct tape to stop that precious smoke from escaping.
Im sure Ive seen wire-loom smoke available to top it back up.

Here you go,a utube training video for you and your staff:p:p:p:p:p
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl4FOCK3fWY
Andrew

[justinc]

Was it driven in like that Justin?

Scott

Yup😮. The owner rsng me and as soon as she mentioned a growling noise under the bonnet and a strange smell i knew what that meant... she was not far away so i said bring it in NOW...😮

There wasn't much smoke just a smell of burning insulation and a wisp when i opened the bonnet ...

Jc

[Hugh Jars]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/06/291.jpg
We used to carry spare bottles of this in the parts kit of a British plane I used to fly. :)

[kenl]

Mine went 2 weeks ago on my SDv6 2011.

It started well before (2 weeks) when it sounded strange like belt noise then it went away, I smelt the funny smell at some stage but blamed the wifes' Mazda parked next to it.

Then I got the charge fault light at 5:30am, which I acknowledged but forged on, long story short after 15 k the whole dash lit up with systems shutting down, the the dash went black, it was dark out and I made it to my shed but I was in fear of being stranded. It's a good design in opinion, everything shut down bar the engine and I made it to A destination.

The local Indi said he'd order the part and replace it after the weekend, "their not to bad" he said.................. Don't think he had done a twin turbo before, next time he will quote more than 2 hours I reckon..

[justinc]

Mine went 2 weeks ago on my SDv6 2011.

It started well before (2 weeks) when it sounded strange like belt noise then it went away, I smelt the funny smell at some stage but blamed the wifes' Mazda parked next to it.

Then I got the charge fault light at 5:30am, which I acknowledged but forged on, long story short after 15 k the whole dash lit up with systems shutting down, the the dash went black, it was dark out and I made it to my shed but I was in fear of being stranded. It's a good design in opinion, everything shut down bar the engine and I made it to A destination.

The local Indi said he'd order the part and replace it after the weekend, "their not to bad" he said.................. Don't think he had done a twin turbo before, next time he will quote more than 2 hours I reckon..


Yes ken they aren't the most fun one to get at. Unbolting the alternator isn't the big issue it is just that the wiring has almost no slack so good luck with undoing and doing up the main battery wire as the turbocharger pipework to the isolation valve has to be unclipped and disconnected to gain access.... and the regulator plug 😠😠 almost impossible to unclip. I've been there where the wire has actually had to be cut (and rejoined prior to refitting )and the plug removed while on the bench 😠😠😠😠.

Not looking forward to it

[jonesy63]

Expensive little suckers too!

A fair bit cheaper than the one in my D4 2.7!
Alternator Land Rover Discovery 4 TDV6 3.0L LR065866 (http://www.trspares.com.au/spare-parts/land-rover-discovery-4/electrical/3-0-tdv6/alternator-land-rover-discovery-4-tdv6-3-0l-lr065866)

[Graeme]

the big issue it is just that the wiring has almost no slack so good luck with undoing and doing up the main battery wireDisconnect the cable from the starter to allow it to pull forwards with the alternator enough to get access to the bolt. The cable is joined to the starter cable so it can't pull too far. The alternator nut can be accessed through the wheel arch but only just and not worth the effort unless not removing the alternator, as one might do if fitting a dedicated alternator cable.

[BobD]

Disconnect the cable from the starter to allow it to pull forwards with the alternator enough to get access to the bolt. The cable is joined to the starter cable so it can't pull too far. The alternator nut can be accessed through the wheel arch but only just and not worth the effort unless not removing the alternator, as one might do if fitting a dedicated alternator cable.


Graeme, do you know if these alternators have the same battery draining property as the 2.7's when they fail? I tried to replace mine when they were doing the timing belt and other things but I was told there were none in Australia for the 3.0 l and that they weren't giving any problems. Also, horrendously expensive for the OEM part. The TR Spares option looks good if it is OK.

[eddy]

How timely,I just bought a spare for my 3.0 from the very knowledgeable Steve at Advanced Factors in the UK,he suggested undoing the cable from the starter motor to give some slack as Graeme has confirmed.Dubai security not impressed when it went through the scanner as it was in my cabin bag, took my toothpaste as recompense.

[Graeme]

The reported burning smell can only be due to the insulation on internal wires burning from the excessive current draw normally associated with one or more diodes going short circuit.

Ritters' price for NON-genuine 3.0 MY10-11 alternators is 180 GBP plus freight. Note that the MY10-11 part number doesn't appear to supersede to the MY12 part number which is described as MY12-on.

EDIT: That price is for non-genuine. The original part# has been superseded but not to the MY12 version and its over 500 GBP!

[DazzaTD5]

Have a 165k example in today with some smoke escaping from the alternator and a nice growling coming from it.. not much fun to get these out and in, not looking forward to it😣

Expensive little suckers too!😮

Jc

So exact same issue as the 2.7lt but now its hard to remove/replace, and dearer you say?? why does that not surprise me.....

and I'm sure the L494 RRS that uses a euro 5 spec version of the 3.0lt is prolly going to be worse.

just like with the rear "timing" belt on the high pressure pump, 2.7lt was ok, then there was a later 2.7lt that was a bit harder to remove the rear cover, then the 3.0lt that looks like easier to remove body, the L494 RRS the same 3.0lt sits way back in the engine bay, i have no thought (or likely interest) in doing that one.

How has each model got better?????

Apart from all that...toughen up Justin.... you make Land Rover repairers look soft.... I'm just finishing a clutch on a TD5 disco.... Ohhh for that sweet sweet sound when the box mates into place with the engine....

Regards
Daz

[Graeme]

just like with the rear "timing" belt on the high pressure pump, 2.7lt was ok, then there was a later 2.7lt that was a bit harder to remove the rear cover, then the 3.0lt that looks like easier to remove body, the L494 RRS the same 3.0lt sits way back in the engine bayAt least the L322 has great access over the back of the engine with only having to undo 2 nuts to remove the cabin air intake assembly to leave a gaping big hole. The front of the 4.4 TDV8 isn't so great though.

[sheerluck]

Silly question, but has the alternator from the Territory TDCi been evaluated as a fit or not for the 3.0?

I had one in my hands a few weeks ago from a 2014 Territory, and noted that it was a Jaguar branded Denso alternator, and other than the pulley being wrong (5 Rib pulley instead of 7?) Is it a close fit?

[Graeme]

The LR 2.7 uses a different alternator to the LR 3.0 but Ford Aust may not have.

[sheerluck]

Yes, it was definitely different to the alternator on my 2.7 (otherwise I'd have swapped it for mine).

I should have another one to look at by the weekend. I'll see if I can get some photos.

[Graeme]

Without looking for old info, I'm pretty sure that at least for the 2010 D4s the 2.7 ecm used a different alternator control protocol to the 3.0 ecm to manage alternator output.

[justinc]

Very different alternator to the 2.7 d4. And significantly more exxy. Lr retail is $1400 however the latest number supercedes to another price significantly more than the Tr spares ebay link earlier.😕😕😕

Its only money...😮😢

Jc

[sheerluck]

Having had a nosy around, I think the Territory alternator is a Denso DAN1103, where the D4 alternator is a DAN1105.

Someone who is a little more familiar with the D4 alternator may want to have a look and compare.

[kenl]

The cost to replace mine was $900 part + $200 labour, quoted by the offsider.

When I dropped off the car the main mechanic said he could probably do it a bit cheaper, but the job took him 4 or more hours so he stuck with the original price.

I don't know if the part was original it came in a box branded Denso though.

I think unclipping the rear connector was a real drama with two of them attacking it from the top and through the wheel arch.

[Graeme]

How timely,I just bought a spare for my 3.0 from the very knowledgeable Steve at Advanced Factors in the UKIs it 150A (DAN1105) or 180A? All the cross-references show the genuine and all others as 150A but IIRC the 3.0 D4 is 180A.

The Denso 1110 220A for the 4.4TDV8 has the same physical dimensions and connector as the DAN1105, appearing to be the same casing, pulley, mounts etc.

Edit: The pictures viewed are incorrect so the compatibility is suspect.

[sheerluck]

DAN1105 NEW DENSO OE ALTERNATOR 3.0TD SPORT 9 09- & DISCOVERY 4 8 10 - LR013847 (http://www.advancedfactors.co.uk/dan1105-new-denso-oe-alternator-30td-sport-909---discovery-4-810---lr013847-6846-p.asp)

AF definitely have it listed as the DAN1105 (150A) version Graeme.

And it's a DAN1106 for the 2.7 D4, and a DAN987 for the 2.7 D3.

[justinc]

put a 150A in☺ there seems to be a supercession to the new number that is 150A and is another galaxy in pricing😣. And no it was not a fun job 1 armed... and yes i did require some help. Whst a stupid idea to make the wiring harness too short. Unlike the d3 and the d4 2.7 these are much more fiddly and you have to pull more apart. 😠

Jc

[Graeme]

Hmm, the picture of the DAN1105 from infopart.org showing dimensions does not have the required mounts for the 3.0. Perhaps the picture is incorrect and therefore the DAN1110 (220A for 4.4TDV8) picture can't be trusted. The picture on Advanced Factors web-site looks more like it.

[sheerluck]

I've grabbed this from the Denso Europe website DENSO E-catalogue - Denso (http://www.denso-am.eu/e-catalogue/)

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110554&stc=1&d=1466721781

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachment.php?attachmentid=110555&stc=1&d=1466721814

I will have a Territory alternator later today to confirm the part numbers on it, so if it is confirmed as the DAN1103, it looks good to go to me.

[Graeme]

Those pictures/dimensions are incorrect. The 3.0's mounts with 2 bolts across the bottom into a bracket rather than a single bolt through 2 sections of the alternator. The same diagram is provided for the 4.4's yet it also mounts similar to the 3.0 but its casting depth is less than the 3.0. The 4.4 also appears to use a fixed pulley rather than a free-wheeling one.

[sheerluck]

Those pictures/dimensions are incorrect. The 3.0's mounts with 2 bolts across the bottom into a bracket rather than a single bolt through 2 sections of the alternator.

Those are just generic diagrams for measurement purposes Graeme. The Denso website shows the correct pictures of both parts.

[Graeme]

Generic measurements are useless!

[eddy]

The Denso DAN1105 appears to be correct for my 2011 3.0.I did query the 150 vs 180 amp with Steve but it is what the catalogue listed so should do the job.

[sheerluck]

Territory alternator will be with me shortly. Will post pics and measurements a little later. ;)

[Graeme]

My concern is that if the 60A diodes in a 180A degrade to the extent of breaking down then I expect 50A diodes to last even less time. The 180A alternators must regularly be working near their limit at least in some vehicles so expect 150A alternators will be working closer to their limit more often and for longer periods. If the 150A versions were to be fitted with 60A diodes then that's a different ball-game.

[sheerluck]

Ok.....so now I'm confused.

The part that I had in my hand has a part number (104210-6120) that neither Denso Europe nor Denso Australia recognise.

A general google search of that part number gives me a cross reference to it fitting a Jaguar XF 3.0TDV6 (which makes sense). However......one reference I found suggested it was 120A, another said 130A, and yet another said 180A.

The official Denso Europe listing for the 3.0TDV6 Jaguar XF (2012 onwards) is indeed the DAN1103, which is 150A.

How hard can one company make it? :mad:

[Grentarc]

Ok.....so now I'm confused.

The part that I had in my hand has a part number (104210-6120) that neither Denso Europe nor Denso Australia recognise.

A general google search of that part number gives me a cross reference to it fitting a Jaguar XF 3.0TDV6 (which makes sense). However......one reference I found suggested it was 120A, another said 130A, and yet another said 180A.

The official Denso Europe listing for the 3.0TDV6 Jaguar XF (2012 onwards) is indeed the DAN1103, which is 150A.

How hard can one company make it? :mad:

That is basically the same info I just found, with this (http://eu.psh.nl/view/104210-6120) site

[~Rich~]

Possibly these:

Land Rover Discovery IV 3 0TD Alternator 2009 ON 2709AU | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/LAND-ROVER-Discovery-IV-3-0TD-Alternator-2009-on-2709AU-/361411873278?hash=item5425d389fe:g:6W0AAOSwA4dWJJL I)

FOR Land Rover Discovery 2013 ON 3 0 4x4 NEW Alternator OE Quality | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FOR-LAND-ROVER-DISCOVERY-2013-ON-3-0-4x4-NEW-ALTERNATOR-OE-QUALITY-/121767759180?hash=item1c59ec8d4c:g:SDEAAOSwQItT71z v)

[sheerluck]

That is basically the same info I just found, with this (http://eu.psh.nl/view/104210-6120) site

And even that is not quite right, listing that alternator as having two mounting holes, when there's definitely 3.

Time to give in I think. Was worth a try to find a cheaper alternative, seeing as LR are now wanting silly money for the 3.0 alternator.

[Graeme]

Why do you say that it only has 2 mounting holes? It's bottom mount is just like the others that have 2 holes going across.

Edit: Just spotted the 2 hole reference but don't believe it.

[sheerluck]

Why do you say that it only has 2 mounting holes? It's bottom mount is just like the others that have 2 holes going across.

:confused:

The site that Justin linked to describes the alternator reference that I found as having 2 mounting holes. There are 3. Two at bottom, and one at the front.

So I haven't said it has 2 mounting holes at all. What I was getting at was that the linked site appears to have inaccuracies and inconsistencies, just like all the other sites I have found.

[Graeme]

Justin (Grentarc) found DAN1112 which appears to be the appropriate 3.0 D4 180A with free-wheeling pulley. It has an end B+ stud but that shouldn't be a concern.

[Silenceisgolden]

This whole alternator business is a bit of a worry, as the typical diode failure renders the vehicle stranded very quickly. Has anyone considered putting a fusible link between the alternator and the battery so that if diodes fail short-circuited at least the battery won't be drained?

I also wonder why some alternators fail and some don't. These days practically everything is made by robotics and there are normally no quality control variations from part to part. So if one fails and others don't, it seems likely that failure is due to some environmental differences.

The biggest environmental difference would happen when dual battery systems are installed. This would be compounded when there are more than one auxiliary batteries as each one can draw quite a high current. Multiple batteries obviously will be much worse unless the dual battery system has some sort of current limiting in its design.

Diodes typically fail short-circuit from secondary breakdown so this gives a clue - excess current drawn at elevated temperatures. I think some sort of current limiting in a dual battery system would result in far less alternator failures.

It would be very interesting to do a survey on this site as to how many alternators have failed with and without dual battery systems.

[Graeme]

This whole alternator business is a bit of a worry, as the typical diode failure renders the vehicle stranded very quickly. Has anyone considered putting a fusible link between the alternator and the battery so that if diodes fail short-circuited at least the battery won't be drained?Install a dedicated alternator cable with a resetable CB so that even if the CB doesn't trip then at least the alternator can be quickly disconnected from the battery. If only 1 diode goes short circuit then current draw of only about 1/3 of the alternator's max o/p occurs so a CB is unlikely to trip. Grentarc's D4 has such a cable & CB.

[drivesafe]

I also wonder why some alternators fail and some don't. These days practically everything is made by robotics and there are normally no quality control variations from part to part. So if one fails and others don't, it seems likely that failure is due to some environmental differences.

The biggest environmental difference would happen when dual battery systems are installed. This would be compounded when there are more than one auxiliary batteries as each one can draw quite a high current. Multiple batteries obviously will be much worse.

Well I installed a dual battery system after having an alternator failure.

My 07 RR was so unreliable and literally unusable, from the day I drove it out of the showroom, that I never bothered wasting my time fitting a dual battery system to it.

Then when the alternator did fail and it became obvious just how much of a problem alternator failures were in Land Rovers, I installed a dual battery system to give me some backup if the alternator failed again.

Not having a dual battery system fitted to my 07 RR made no difference to the cause of the failure, but had I had a dual battery system fitted, I could have at least been able to get the heap off the middle of the road and probably had enough reserve power to get it home.

[Ean Austral]

Install a dedicated alternator cable with a resetable CB so that even if the CB doesn't trip then at least the alternator can be quickly disconnected from the battery. If only 1 diode goes short circuit then current draw of only about 1/3 of the alternator's max o/p occurs so a CB is unlikely to trip. Grentarc's D4 has such a cable & CB.

I have done this with my D3 . I had a mini fuse and went as low as 80 amp , I then installed a 75amp Resettable CB and found that was to small.
I now have a 100amp resettable CB and have had no issues. I also have a in cabin battery monitor for both batteries .

When I done my timing belt I installed a new alternator and kept the old 1 as a spare , but I like the idea of being able to disconnect the alternator very quickly if a fault occurs.

Cheers Ean

[drivesafe]

This is a good read about trying to make the alternator failures a bit safer.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-tutorials/222226-separate-alternator-cable-d3.html

[BobD]

Tim,


How did the 210 A CVSR go? You said in the link that you would report back on it.


I had a 12 month old battery drop unexpectedly to 6V over night in Katherine a couple of weeks ago for no apparent reason. Obviously the USI 160 wouldn't connect to the second battery due to the low voltage but when we used jumper leads from a Toyota it did connect and started the car OK. (It wouldn't turn over with just the jumper leads) I drove to Darwin without switching the engine off and got a new battery from the LR dealer but they didn't have time to fit it. I drove around for a couple of days with no problems until I got around to fitting the battery. No problems on the trip back to Perth with the new battery installed or since. I had an Optima battery running the Waeco in the car and we charge the Kimberley Karavan via the rear Anderson plug of the Traxide kit with a Redarc 40A DC-DC charger while driving.


Could this sudden battery voltage drop over night when only running the Fridge from the second battery be something to do with the alternator? My D4 is up around 220,000km. If it did cause the problem it then fixed itself and is now charging perfectly. I should point out that we had just travelled the Great Central Road, Birdsville Track, Savannah Way and two days before we went from Cape Crawford north on the Roper River Road, which was so rough that we turned around after 80km and decided to take the bitumen to Stuart Hwy to prevent damage to our three vehicles and the KK. I thought these rough roads must have damaged the battery at the time.

[drivesafe]

Hi Bob and this is purely an assumption, but as you posted, the rough roads may have loosened plates in the battery.

While very rare, it is something that can happen.

If you alternator was the problem, again as you stated, it would not have fixed itself.

As for the 220,000kms, milage is not one of the contribution factors that causes the discussed problem with the LR alternators.

From memory mine went at 96,000 and this seems to be a common milage point but some D4s go in as little as 40,000 will an RR L322. the alternator had been fine till well over 200,000 but still failed in the same dangerous way.

I have decided to keep my RR as is ( unusable ) till I decide whether to take legal action against LR and as such, I have not installed the CVSR.

[kenl]

It may be totally unrelated but when I first got my "belt noise" I was driving next to shed ( that amplified the sound) and through a pot hole that seemed to cause the noise.

The sound then went away after a week or two but ended in total failure of the alternator a week later.

The pot hole, in my mind, played a part... I hadn't mentioned it before because it seemed silly.

I'm happy it was just the alternator, and nothing more serious. This has been my first breakdown, after 5 years and 145,000 km, and even then I got home, to recharge.

I must also note that I run a engel fridge 24/7 and DRL's with a lot of stop start work so it could be me abusing the batteries and charging system that caused my failure?

[drivesafe]

Hi keel, loading the alternator does not appear to be a cause for the failures.

As I posted, mine had had very little load put on the alternator, yet is still failed spectacularly.

But I have many D3 and D4 owners who regularly tow camper trailers or caravans and a good number of these do a lot of free camping, so they have to work their alternators pretty hard, and this does not seem to bring on an alternator failure.

In some of these setups the alternator is charging the cranking battery, an auxiliary battery and 2 or 3 house batteries in their camper trailer or caravan, and these high current loads don't seem to be a problem.

[disco4now]

Went to go out this morning and the 2010 3.0 D4 would not unlock. Had to take the Toyota Startlet as we had an appointment , thinking I need a new battery in the remote. After getting back I could just hear a faint click when I tried to unlock, so probably not he remote key. I used the emergency key for the first time ever and got the passenger door open. no alarm. Popped the bonnet and the measured the battery. 5Volts. Disconnected everything to see if it was the alternator pulling the voltage down. It seemed battery recovered to about 8 volts when the main starter/alternator cable was disconnected. Reconnected and went to 5 volts again, so was pretty much convinced the alternator was pulling it down. Put the battery charger on and the battery was about 12.5 after a couple of hours. I put a clamp meter on the main starter/alternator cable and volt meter across the battery and reconnected the thing to the battery post just to make sure it was the alternator. Well no voltage drop or current via the alternator. Connected the rest of the power connectors and still no voltage drop. Started the car and alternator charging at 73amps at idle.

So a bit of a mystery for the moment. I am pretty sure the alternator was affecting the voltage (5v /8v change) when I connected/disconnected with nothing else connected. But I have learned over the years you cannot be sure 100% about what you think you did.

Any chance a diode would stop leaking after it cooled down?
So for now I am fully charging the battery to see how it goes over night.

I have started looking at alternator options in preparation.

The parts LR013847->LR065866->LR072756 seem to be for the D4 3.0 and is DENSO DAN1105 but seem to be 150A.
Does anyone have confirmation/info about this?

The parts LR034013->LR072764 are for Discovery 4 and is DENSO DAN1112 which is 180A. (Is this the 5.0L ?)
Has anyone used it for the D4 3.0L


Justin (Grentarc) found DAN1112 which appears to be the appropriate 3.0 D4 180A with free-wheeling pulley. It has an end B+ stud but that shouldn't be a concern.


Regards
Gerry

[Grentarc]

Went to go out this morning and the 2010 3.0 D4 would not unlock. Had to take the Toyota Startlet as we had an appointment , thinking I need a new battery in the remote. After getting back I could just hear a faint click when I tried to unlock, so probably not he remote key. I used the emergency key for the first time ever and got the passenger door open. no alarm. Popped the bonnet and the measured the battery. 5Volts. Disconnected everything to see if it was the alternator pulling the voltage down. It seemed battery recovered to about 8 volts when the main starter/alternator cable was disconnected. Reconnected and went to 5 volts again, so was pretty much convinced the alternator was pulling it down. Put the battery charger on and the battery was about 12.5 after a couple of hours. I put a clamp meter on the main starter/alternator cable and volt meter across the battery and reconnected the thing to the battery post just to make sure it was the alternator. Well no voltage drop or current via the alternator. Connected the rest of the power connectors and still no voltage drop. Started the car and alternator charging at 73amps at idle.

So a bit of a mystery for the moment. I am pretty sure the alternator was affecting the voltage (5v /8v change) when I connected/disconnected with nothing else connected. But I have learned over the years you cannot be sure 100% about what you think you did.

Any chance a diode would stop leaking after it cooled down?
So for now I am fully charging the battery to see how it goes over night.

I have started looking at alternator options in preparation.

The parts LR013847->LR065866->LR072756 seem to be for the D4 3.0 and is DENSO DAN1105 but seem to be 150A.
Does anyone have confirmation/info about this?

The parts LR034013->LR072764 are for Discovery 4 and is DENSO DAN1112 which is 180A. (Is this the 5.0L ?)
Has anyone used it for the D4 3.0L




Regards
GerryHi Gerry -
It looks like LR downsized the alternator to 150A for the 3.0 some time ago - which is why I have bought a DAN1110 (220A) and an overrun pulley. I haven't fitted it yet as I am moving house, but here it is with the pulley fitted - uses the same mounting points and electrical connector, is the same in all dimensions except the +ve pole is on the rear instead of the side - the +ve cable should not have an issue.
The total cost for the alternator, pulley and pulley tool came to about $520. The alternator cost $460, pulley was $50 and the tool was $9
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/725.jpg

[DiscoJeffster]

Hi Gerry -
It looks like LR downsized the alternator to 150A for the 3.0 some time ago - which is why I have bought a DAN1110 (220A) and an overrun pulley. I haven't fitted it yet as I am moving house, but here it is with the pulley fitted - uses the same mounting points and electrical connector, is the same in all dimensions except the +ve pole is on the rear instead of the side - the +ve cable should not have an issue.
The total cost for the alternator, pulley and pulley tool came to about $520. The alternator cost $460, pulley was $50 and the tool was $9
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/725.jpg

I don’t suppose pretty please you have the part numbers for the overrun pulley and tool per chance?

[Grentarc]

I don’t suppose pretty please you have the part numbers for the overrun pulley and tool per chance?I will dig up my eBay purchase history

[Grentarc]

I don’t suppose pretty please you have the part numbers for the overrun pulley and tool per chance?

One of these pulleys JAGUAR XF, LAND ROVER RANGE ROVER SPORT / DISCOVERY III, 2.7, D / TD – Alternator Freewheel Clutch – INA: 535019710 | | Car Parts and Accessories (http://durkon.co.uk/product/jaguar-xf-land-rover-range-rover-sport-discovery-iii-2-7-d-td-alternator-freewheel-clutch-ina-535019710/)
and a 17mm internal hex impact NULINE OVERRUN PULLEY OAP REMOVAL TOOL 17mm Hex Impact Rattle Tool OAPT002 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NULINE-OVERRUN-PULLEY-OAP-REMOVAL-TOOL-17mm-Hex-Impact-Rattle-Tool-OAPT002/141946000566?hash=item210ca414b6:g:hUkAAOxyNq5SLRc w)

[DiscoJeffster]

Thanks!

[Homestar]

Can I ask a dumb question please?

How does the overrun pulley work and how's it supposed to help? If it's being driven by the engine all the time when does it overrun? Given the load on the alternator will make it break instantly the throttle is released even if allowed to freewheel, I'm struggling with the concept to be honest.

Not sure what causes failures of the alternators in these vehicles - I'm guessing the way they are mounted or something putting strain on them? No idea really, just guessing as it isn't an issue in 99% of vehicles built in the last 4 decades is all.

Not trying to be a smartarse, just can't figure out what they do is all.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

The alternator rotor is not a gyroscope,, there are electrical forces opposing its rotation.
If the engine slows, the rotor will corospondingly slow.
I thought the D4 already had a fuel saving process where it only charged on deceleration? (yes? no?)
so when maximum charging occurs you expect the alternator to freewheel?

[Graeme]

The over-run pulley is to prevent the alternator from applying momentary extra load on the belt during high rev gear changes. The alternator certainly will not slow as quickly as the crankshaft does.
Note that the 4.4 TDV8 which uses a fixed pulley is fitted with a stretch belt.
The main rectifier diodes in Denso alternators fail over time due to high current, high temperature usage.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Is this momentary load is applicable to all pulleys on the belt Graeme?

[Grentarc]

The alternator rotor is not a gyroscope,, there are electrical forces opposing its rotation.
If the engine slows, the rotor will corospondingly slow.
I thought the D4 already had a fuel saving process where it only charged on deceleration? (yes? no?)
so when maximum charging occurs you expect the alternator to freewheel?The way it was explained to me by a long time mechanic who now works for a large manufacturer of alternators is that the over run pulley is to smooth out the load on the serpentine belt caused during gear changes on "not as smooth" engines like V6s - he explained that these engines are more likely to jump the belt, so the pulley even out the belt load.

Also, the D4 alternator charges whenever it needs to - the regenerative braking feature is where it adds extra load to the engine by increasing alternator output whilst braking/engine braking

[DiscoJeffster]

Can I ask a dumb question please?

How does the overrun pulley work and how's it supposed to help? If it's being driven by the engine all the time when does it overrun? Given the load on the alternator will make it break instantly the throttle is released even if allowed to freewheel, I'm struggling with the concept to be honest.

Not sure what causes failures of the alternators in these vehicles - I'm guessing the way they are mounted or something putting strain on them? No idea really, just guessing as it isn't an issue in 99% of vehicles built in the last 4 decades is all.

Not trying to be a smartarse, just can't figure out what they do is all.

It’s this simple, by example.

Solid pulley vs NULINE Overrunning Alternator Pulley, OAP - YouTube (https://youtu.be/OR0WEK3JEO4)

[cripesamighty]

Thanks for that video. That made it much easier for my brain to process!

[TB]

And here's a page with a helpful description of what the pulley is and how it helps:
Dayco - Overrunning Alternator Pulleys (http://www.dayco.com.au/products.aspx?G=18012282&P=18040276)

[cripesamighty]

These two came off the links in the video posted by DiscoJeffster.

Overrunning Alternator Pulley OAP - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fv7IMqjvCaY)

The INA Overrunning Alternator Pulley OAP the Technology Film Schaeffler - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9beaAjKLBnY)

[Homestar]

It’s this simple, by example.

Solid pulley vs NULINE Overrunning Alternator Pulley, OAP - YouTube (https://youtu.be/OR0WEK3JEO4)

That doesn't really explain much to be honest - what load was on the alternator during each run, what was the acceleration and deceleration or speed at the time of each test? I could make a belt wobble like that or run smoothly just based on those variables.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, but based on what I know about alternators, engines and what manufacturers have been doing for decades without issue, it just looks to be a bit of snake oil is all.

That or something that's only needed by D3's 4's due to a design flaw? If that's the case it makes more sense.

[DiscoJeffster]

Homestar I’d suggest you do some of your own research then or accept it as snake oil. If you do the research you’ll see it’s across many vehicles, not just LR.
My understanding is that with the increase in alternator output, the force as each coil passes a magnet has increased to the point that the force fluctuations are great enough to need something to take out the shock.
Back in the day alternators were 80-100A, whereas now they’re upwards of 200A in the same package. That means more coils, more magnet strength, more force fluctuations as alternators do not produce an even output.

[Homestar]

Just asking...

That bit about force fluctuations isn't quite correct unless the alternator is at almost max load which it wouldn't do very often. Even then, say the alternator is loaded heavily and the engine is doing say - 3000RPM. That would mean the alternator is spinning at least twice that, and as there are 3 windings in the unit, that's 300 pulses per second - I couldn't actually see that creating the wobble on the belt like the video shows, but who knows...

I deal with alternators every day - just not the cute little 12 volt, 200amp jobbies you're talking about here - ours are 3 phase, 415 volt 2000 amps per phase jobs, so I do know how an alternator works - it's my job, hence my scepticism here.

And just because they fit a 200amp alternator, that doesn't mean it pushes that out all the time - the load on an alternator is completely load dependant, they don't 'push' amps out, they only supply what the load is at a given time, it's just how they work. - a lot of people don't get this bit. I'd actually like to know how much the vehicle uses while running without lights, etc on - just the base vehicle load - anyone know that? I'm genuinely interested.

But hey, if it works - that's great, or if it doesn't and it's just a placebo effect - that's fine, just doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not saying they don't - I've never said that in any of my other posts, so again, if it does that's super, but to me it sounds like a Hiclone, fuel polariser or HHO generator sort of thing is all. I thought OEM's had alternators sussed decades ago.

[DiscoJeffster]

Agree, exactly, so I’d suggest it’s only an issue at high output. I tend to think a manufacturer wouldn’t include something they don’t feel there is a benefit/need for. Costs them money after all.

[bee utey]

Maybe it's just the modern passion for serpentine belts, vee belts have more damping. My 1994 Merc has a serpentine belt and they fitted an actual shock absorber style damper to the tensioner. I can tell you that without a working damper it does indeed make an unhealthy sounding racket.

[Graeme]

The video stated 750 rpm so plenty of time to feel the pulsing. Alternators are often at maximum output at idle - they have to be to keep blinkers, headlights, air-con, electrically heated/cooled seats working whilst the engine is idling as slowly as possible to juggle adequate power output from the alternator against minimum exhaust emissions.

[Grentarc]

Just asking...

That bit about force fluctuations isn't quite correct unless the alternator is at almost max load which it wouldn't do very often. Even then, say the alternator is loaded heavily and the engine is doing say - 3000RPM. That would mean the alternator is spinning at least twice that, and as there are 3 windings in the unit, that's 300 pulses per second - I couldn't actually see that creating the wobble on the belt like the video shows, but who knows...

I deal with alternators every day - just not the cute little 12 volt, 200amp jobbies you're talking about here - ours are 3 phase, 415 volt 2000 amps per phase jobs, so I do know how an alternator works - it's my job, hence my scepticism here.

And just because they fit a 200amp alternator, that doesn't mean it pushes that out all the time - the load on an alternator is completely load dependant, they don't 'push' amps out, they only supply what the load is at a given time, it's just how they work. - a lot of people don't get this bit. I'd actually like to know how much the vehicle uses while running without lights, etc on - just the base vehicle load - anyone know that? I'm genuinely interested.

But hey, if it works - that's great, or if it doesn't and it's just a placebo effect - that's fine, just doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm not saying they don't - I've never said that in any of my other posts, so again, if it does that's super, but to me it sounds like a Hiclone, fuel polariser or HHO generator sort of thing is all. I thought OEM's had alternators sussed decades ago.My D4 with low beam Xenons as DRLs https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/731.jpg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

72 ??
wow. :Thump:

[DiscoJeffster]

72 ??
wow. :Thump:

Boom! [emoji441] drop [emoji23]

[Homestar]

That's a lot of power - thanks for the info. We've come a long way since the 35amp version in my 101 - which I've never overloaded, the big beasty draws about 2 amps driving down the street. :)

[LRD414]

As a comparison to Justin’s figure; parker lights only (LED) with AC and stereo off, sat idling in Park was 26A on the iiD diagnostic. Jumped to over 45A when xenon headlights turned on and then up to 60A with AC but outside was only around 28 degrees.

Scott

[Grentarc]

As a comparison to Justin’s figure; parker lights only (LED) with AC and stereo off, sat idling in Park was 26A on the iiD diagnostic. Jumped to over 45A when xenon headlights turned on and then up to 60A with AC but outside was only around 28 degrees.

ScottYes, I was just sitting on the side of the road, no idea if the suspension compressor was active or not, radio on etc, so all these things quickly add up.

[Grentarc]

Boom! [emoji441] drop [emoji23]You should see when the Fyrlyts are on...
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/10/749.jpg