1955 86" engine dilemmas

[Nut Tool]

G'day everyone,

I have an 86" in the shed with a holden 186 in it. Work is slowly progressing and I'm almost ready to start repairing the rust in the chassis. While I'm working on the chassis, I also need to work out what I'm doing with the engine.

My original thought was to keep the 186. However, VicRoads can't give me any registration history and I think it is extremely unlikely that the car was ever registered with the current front cross-member setup (classis cut and weld in some angle iron with no reinforcement, various other bits welded on here and there). Also, the 186 blows smoke and I'd be looking at replacing rings, gaskets and bearings I believe. The need to pay for engineering makes it look like a less attractive option. Cost and fuel economy are both considerations, and the 186 I hear is a thirsty beast.

The engine options I am considering are as follows:

Tune up the 186, fix up the front cross-member and pay engineering
Find a series 1 petrol 2.25, fix front cross-member, no engineering
Find an appropriate modern diesel (isuzu, toyota...) and fit it, pay engineering and possibly spend a lot on the rest of the powertrain...
Find a diesel from a series I or II or III and drop it in, hopefully no engineering or fiddling too much with transmission etc...?


Option 4 is the most attractive I think given the reliability and fuel economy of diesel engines, provided I can locate one. I suspect fitting a landy diesel and not paying for engineering would be a bit cheaper than going with the 186 too.

What do the experts think? Does anyone have a spare 2.25D :D

[Dark61]

I'd go for option 4. SOmebody will be along shortly no doubt to tell you how to do it ,or whether you can or not. I like the original engine. I have seen a couple of old diesels on eBay/ gumtree. HOw about putting an ad in the wanted sections.cheers ,
D

[123rover50]

The other option is to get a 200TDI out of a Disco, leave the turbo off and it bolts right up to the series gearbox.
I put one in an 80" and are currently putting another in a 88"
Google 200 TDI into series Land Rover. Lots of info.

[Tomo]

Here is a good option,

Series 1 Land Rover 2 Litre Engine Turns Perfect FOR Restoration in NSW | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SERIES-1-LAND-ROVER-2-LITRE-ENGINE-TURNS-PERFECT-FOR-RESTORATION-/112045347987?hash=item1a166c5493:g:T~UAAOSw~oFXIp-j)

Series I motors are either 1.6L (48-53?) or 2.0L (54 - 58)
This engine would be ideal and it is in sydney!


Cheers

[QRS40]

I have been facing the same dilemma recently regarding my 80". The engine (Holden 186) is actually pretty clean and strong, but my gearbox (also non-original) is hopeless. The clutch has now also given up, forcing the issue!
Since the gearbox needs to be pulled out anyway I figure I may as well return the motor to LR, so for me, Im likely going for something like your option 2 (replace with 2.25 petrol), although I don't think I have any chassis issues so should be straightforward. FYI Im not an expert but im told if you use a s2/3 engine you should also use a corresponding gearbox.
If you are interested in a diesel, check out the markets, there is a complete LWB diesel for sale that may be a viable donor.


PS I suggest you also contact AOMC. My landy is from Victoria, and despite being currently fully registered, it did not show up on the Vicroads online search tool (chassis, engine or rego number). I think this is because the rego has been continuous for 60 years, so predated Vicroads records- and all the old stuff is now held by AOMC. I contacted them and they ran a search (you need to provide the engine number, and there is a small fee). This should tell you whether it has been registered in Vic previously with that engine. If it has been you should hopefully not need an engineering certificate as back in the day a Holden conversion was an acceptable alteration. If you google hard enough, somewhere on the internet is a scan from an old standards manual confirming this..

Finally- finding the date of the conversion may bear some relevance for your decision. In my case, I found out the engine was changed in 1975- meaning the Holden motor has in fact been in there for 41 years, and the original 2L only lasted 22 years. An interesting quirk that my Holden motor is more historically relevant to my car than the motor it was sold with!


Ultimately it comes down to personal preferences and circumstances- I want to return my car to a landy engine, and that was the deciding factor.


I hope that helps!

[Nut Tool]

Thanks for the replies everyone! I'll look into the 200tdi option and also I will certainly be in contact with AOMC - if the landy has been registered with the 186, that would be great news (for my wallet at least...). Deciding on the engine is tough - there are so many options!

[wayne]

May I ask if this is the same for a 300TDI engine ?

[DazzaTD5]

My 55 86" has a 2.25 petrol in it, prolly first installed back when it was a working vehicle, why not go this way, the 2.25 petrol is a quiet smooth (in relative terms) reliable easy to work on engine. It also opens up options for finding an engine, as in upto a Series III.

Regards
Daz

[jerryd]

May I ask if this is the same for a 300TDI engine ?

The Discovery 200tdi motor is the only one that will fit onto the series chassis engine mounts with no alteration. Ideally need to fit defender manifold / turbo as it sits higher than the disco one and won't foul on chassis. Also makes the exhaust system easier I'm told. It will also fit series gearbox with little alteration.
The defender 300 tdi motor will foul on the chassis mounts and uses different engine mounts. Fabrication will be needed. I think the 300tdi discovery motor has similar issues.

Hope this helps

[Rick Fischer]

another couple of bob's worth.........

200 and 300 tdi are essentially the same engine as far as I am aware apart from the manifolds and they are interchangeable .......and now the mounts. If the block is the same block, which it is, chances are (guessing) that all that is changed is the actual style of the mount itself. LR wouldn't have retooled the block to change the mount, not economic for an industry that counts cents, ummmm pennies.

Suggest that a 300 could use the 200 mounts. That'd make life a bit easier :0)

Cheers

RF

[jcamp]

Key issue is where the mount bolts to the block - is the hole spacing the same. If it is then almost certainly there will be a factory mount for 200 engine/300 chassis and 300 engine/200 chassis

Having a 3.9 disco pre update and gone through issues with the changeover, talking to others etc. Parts (including RRC parts) were been run out/bodged/what was on shelf etc. Parts book is not entirely accurate and also shows overlapping part nos/vin range

[jcamp]

RE early Vic holden conversions.

I have seen holden (registered) conversions with no front crossmember (60's) and have been told that some early conversion kits (50's) suggested that.

Remember that chassis torsional stiffness was not considered important way back. Rover only went to box section chassis for the Land Rover to minimise tooling costs and only realised the value of a rigid chassis with the suspension doing the flexing later.

[jerryd]

The later 300tdi defender units have a different timing cover to the 200tdi discovery units, hence they foul on the driver's side chassis engine mount.

compare the pics, 200 tdi cover is higher and will clear chassis mount

[Rick Fischer]

Well, that's a "there you go!" Not just the actual mounts. :o

......................and then I recall the "recall" for the 300tdi timing belt and cam.

Cheers

RF

[QRS40]

Nut Tool- FYI I had a chance to look at another 80" to compare to mine over the weekend- it seems I have a custom fabricated front cross member that sits a bit further forward than the original would have. Ie I don't have a 'chop job', but a completely different 'new' [well its now 40y.o] cross member.


A pic is [hopefully] attached, you can also see sump from my red motor, and may also note addition of coil spring suspension.

[Nut Tool]

Thanks QRS40! That seems like quite a nice solution, I have been thinking about moving the cross member forward if I keep the 186. Neater than the chop job.

[Yorkshire_Jon]

Appreciate this is a fairly old thread but I'm putting a 300tdi, R380 & LT230 into a 54 86". It's a squeeze and I had to use an Ashcroft stumpy bellhousing, but it will fit!

Granted it would be easier in a 107 / 109 where the chassis rails are deeper. I had to use the Defender mounts and make them fit (passenger side needed to be a bit narrower and drivers side a bit wider).

[Blknight.aus]

all the bits that make the tdi200 a 200 will bolt onto a tdi300 block.

a little finessing here and there but doable. There are some parts of a series landy 2.25 that will bolt onto a tdi block.

I hear tell that where a tdi will fit so will one of the rover v8s... :)

[series1buff]

Rover only went to box section chassis for the Land Rover to minimise tooling costs and only realised the value of a rigid chassis with the suspension doing the flexing later.

And also because the bodywork is mostly Aluminium , the rigid chassis lessens the body flexing problem .

[JDNSW]

And also because the bodywork is mostly Aluminium , the rigid chassis lessens the body flexing problem .

Not just because the body is aluminium, but because it is bolted together and provides little added stiffness for the chassis. A useful comparison is the Jeep that it was patterned on - this had a pressed and welded body shell that provided a lot of added stiffness for the (very lightly built) chassis.

John