TD6 clonk in frontend

[harlie]

Hi Guys

I have a question for all.

TD6 clonking in the front. Seems to be triggered by shift in weight from side to side in slower corners, one wheel over a speed bump doesn't worry it.

From the drivers' seat it is hard to pick a side, from the passengers' seat it sounds like it is coming from the drivers' side.

* Upper and Lower arms have been replaced (ball joint and bush)
* anti roll bar bushes replaced (clamps on the main cradle) - these were noisy
* struts were done in 2013

This has me beat! I have even taken it to the local suspension shop who spent a good amount of time and came back with "we can't find anything worn or loose"

I'm starting to think steering. The shop commented on how he thought the steering felt tight while driving it.

Any ideas?

[chaybra]

unfortunately...this affects most of us with no clue to what it can be.
mine started 6 months after i got mine, replaced a lot of stuff since then and it has not changed one bit.

TBH I think the cheaper struts that are used to replace have bearing movement. thats my guess

[harlie]

.....

TBH I think the cheaper struts that are used to replace have bearing movement. thats my guess

That is a very interesting thought. Wonder if it goes on the shock absorber test machine - will we be able to hear it?

I have a couple of old struts, might have to see what holds the bearing together

[Graeme]

Mine has produced a clunk from either side over small bumps at slow speed, even when barely moving, from when I bought it at 18K kms so it has the original shocks. However mine had the front-end at least partly dismantled to do the turbo drain fix so a bolt could be loose but on each side? JC suggested the top mount is the usual cause but I haven't yet loosened then re-tightened the nuts to see if there's any improvement. I can't believe that its caused by wear. The rattles disgust me daily.

[harlie]

Have gone through painfully redoing every bolt that's been touched since I've had it (nearly 9 yrs now). No change.

Interesting thing is - it doesn't have any other rattles, only car I've ever owned that hasn't rattled like hell....

[Strangerover]

Remarkable, I'd come here today to research my front end clonk. I had a dim memory of someone saying they'd fixed theirs. Just had the lower arms done, now i can hear it more clearly... :(
Mine's most apparent over speed bumps & gutters, one wheel or both makes no difference. I'd wondered about the strut bearings too, that doesn't seem consistent with your 'one wheel over a speed bump doesn't worry it' though Harlie. I'm actually thinking worn rack for my problem. Open to suggestions (and answers from those who've cured theirs!)

[Graeme]

I haven't yet checked the steering column joints. I had a rattle in my D4 after a body R&R that I found to be a steering column join bolt not properly torqued.

[rar110]

Gday Harlie

I spoke to Bilstien Australia (Sydney) 3 mths ago about their front struts for the L322, as they are available in UK. The rep told me Bilstien withdrew them from sale here as they didn't suit Australian conditions. Sideways movement resulted in too many failures. So it could be a front strut.

[harlie]

Remarkable, I'd come here today to research my front end clonk. I had a dim memory of someone saying they'd fixed theirs. Just had the lower arms done, now i can hear it more clearly... :(
Mine's most apparent over speed bumps & gutters, one wheel or both makes no difference. I'd wondered about the strut bearings too, that doesn't seem consistent with your 'one wheel over a speed bump doesn't worry it' though Harlie. I'm actually thinking worn rack for my problem. Open to suggestions (and answers from those who've cured theirs!)

Check the anti roll bar bushes. They are bonded to the bar, when they wear, they will cause a clonk as the bush is able to rotate a fraction in the clamp. I fixed that one back in 2013ish - it was a different clonk to what I have now, it was easier to pick a side. The easy way to rule out (or confirm) the roll bar bush is to fit a small spacer under the bush so the clamp has more force on it - I used 2mm alloy, stopped the noise for about 3 months - then replaced the bushes.

The suspension shop mentioned that he thought it sounded like it was high up - he started looking at engine mounts, so for me the top of the strut is starting to look good.

[harlie]

Gday Harlie

I spoke to Bilstien Australia (Sydney) 3 mths ago about their front struts for the L322, as they are available in UK. The rep told me Bilstien withdrew them from sale here as they didn't suit Australian conditions. Sideways movement resulted in too many failures. So it could be a front strut.

Interested in stripping an old one Pete? see exactly whats in the top?

[Strangerover]

Check the anti roll bar bushes. They are bonded to the bar, when they wear, they will cause a clonk as the bush is able to rotate a fraction in the clamp. I fixed that one ... replaced the bushes.

That sounds like it could well be my problem. I'm a little confused though, they're bonded to the bar, yet you were able to replace them?? Did you have to replace the whole bar?


The suspension shop mentioned that he thought it sounded like it was high up - he started looking at engine mounts, so for me the top of the strut is starting to look good.

Engine mounts sounds expensive, fits with your weight-shifting scenario too. Hope it's just the struts!

[rar110]

Interested in stripping an old one Pete? see exactly whats in the top?

Sounds good. I've been meaning to catch up. I also need to pick your brains about LEDs again. That remap torque result is impressive.

[Homestar]

I've been chasing a rear end clunk for a while now - got it sorted on the weekend. Just going back one step, about a year ago I was getting pretty sick of the clunks and squeaks from the rear end, so about 6 months ago, I replaced all the bushes in the rear. This fixed 95% of my problems but one persisted. I've been living with it for a while - only happened when I drive off. Now it's sold and going in for a RWC I really needed to sort this, so I went over every inch of the rear end.

I found the issue - something I'd never looked at before - the back bolt holding the diff was just a tad loose - maybe just from some slight wear in the bush there, but once tightened, everything is quite again.

The only squeak it has now is when the rear cargo cover is in - that speaks, so generally I don't leave it in the car.

It's now as quiet as when Imfisrt bought it - still amazingly tight and rattle free for a 13 year old car. :)

[Graeme]

Silicone spray on plastic works wonders for squeaks.

[harlie]

That sounds like it could well be my problem. I'm a little confused though, they're bonded to the bar, yet you were able to replace them?? Did you have to replace the whole bar?

...



Hello mate - yes they are bonded. You are supposed to buy the bar, however the bushes are available for bugger all.

Unfortunately you need to remove the bar to get the old bushes off - involves lowering the entire main cradle. Then you can sit down and painfully strip the old bushes off the bar. I say painfully because it was a turd of a job. However once there are stripped off, and the new ones packed with a bit of rubber grease, the problem will never come back.

[chaybra]

I have an old set of struts, i checked and they say delpi on top also so must have been replaced at some time before i did.

the bearing also feels sloppy on these. I will see if i get time to pull one appart this weekend (lots of little projects on atm), I was going to do this to try and get some spacers made up also

[harlie]

Good work Chaybra - I don't have time this weekend so it will be a couple of weeks before I get Pete over and attack one. My old ones were the originals so it will be interesting to compare.

[Strangerover]

once there are stripped off, and the new ones packed with a bit of rubber grease, the problem will never come back.

So, the new bushes are split so you can get them on? Sounds like a fun project, I can't wait... :no2:

[harlie]

So, the new bushes are split so you can get them on?
...

yes they are

[Strangerover]

Thanks mate. I'm off for a week-long trip in the snowy Vic high country, it'll have to wait until I'm back. Looking forward to finally being clonk free, at least for a while...

[chaybra]

Mine has developed a new "click" at the front left now :/ only under heavy load in the car park or heavy breaking in forward or reverse.

Investigations will begin soon as it is a little warmer
:censored:

[Homestar]

This sort of fits here, so I'll tell the tale here rather than start a new thread. As I've posted before I had a small clunk in the rear somewhere - after checking over and tightening everything in the back and finding the diff mounting bolts a bit loose, the clunk went away - took it for a nice long drive, gave it some stick etc - all good.

I took it for a RWC yesterday as I'm selling it and when I picked it up last night and was driving it home, the clunk returned - new and improved - bang, bang, clunk, scrape, stop.... :(

Limped it the 1KM home in 1st at idle and came inside quite dejected - this morning had a good look under the car, nothing loose, bugger - thinking the rear diff had gone to God. Called the guy who's buying it and explained the situation.

Anyway, while buying shocks for it today, at British Car Components I described the clunk to Dave and he said it sounded like a uni joint failure. Being an IRS vehicle and how the rear tailshaft connects at the TC and diff, I said I'm pretty sure it's one piece (remember you can't see the tailshaft - just the ends - it's hidden behind covers). Anyway, Dave bought up the drawing of the driveline on Microcat - and sure enough, he was right - a 2 piece shaft with centre bearing.

So, quite excited I got home just now and pulled a cover off to reveal....

Yep, a stuffed uni joint and centre bearing...

Dave was 100% correct - I'll start calling him the Guru Mark II...:D

I'll know more about the damage when I remove the shaft this weekend, so I'm not sure if it is salvageable yet or the damage has been wide spread. Not sure what happened first - the Uni falling apart that then damaged the centre bearing or vice versa.

Another interesting point is that the car had just had its first test for a RWC - and this was not picked up... Only rear shocks - ****ing out oil - and a few minor things.

They did tell me they weren't familiar with the vehicle, so maybe they made the same assumption as me and just checked each end where it mounts to the TC and diff.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that - it manifested itself as a small clunk clunk clunk when driving off, it didn't get any worse until it totally failed.

Maybe worth checking if you can't locate a clunk in the rear somewhere.

[chaybra]

Glad to hear it didnt happen as speed! Also great news that its not the diff itself :D

any pics of the damage yet?

[Homestar]

Will post some tonight. Got what's left of the centre bearing out, just trying to get the shaft out - it a bit of a pain to do - would be a breeze on a hoist.

All the bolts are out, front is disconnected but where it meets the diff is stuck - the tolerances are very tight - it fits on a large spigot both ends - like the driveshafts do on the diffs if you've ever had those off.

I'm heading back outside soon to have another go.

[Homestar]

Well, nothing to show tonight - the tailshaft is stuck fast to the diff. Spent 2 hours under there trying to shift it but to no avail. Will try again tomorrow, hopefully it's not raining.

[Strangerover]

Don't envy you mate, sounds like it requires a lot of swearing.

[Homestar]

I think I've worked out how to shift it. I'll reattach the front end and put it in gear to see if I can break the seal at the back. I can't imagine a bit of surface rust staying there too long if I do that. ;)

[Homestar]

Well, that was harder than I thought but it's sorted. Pictures to follow shortly.

[Strangerover]

Congratulations, well done. What was the trick after 4 hours of trying?

[Homestar]

There's a slot machined into the flange to stick a screwdriver in - it's very hard to see up there so I missed it - I'm about to start a new thread on this whole job as there is a heap to it....

[Strangerover]

You're very kind to post the procedure... and I hope I never have to refer to it! :D

[chaybra]

So, after playing around with my old busted bag and shock, i have concluded that the top bearing cannot be removed without specialized tooling or without causing damage.
furthermore, i no longer believe that the bearing was at fault for the knocking, it felt quite tight when I had it off the vehicle. it appeared that a small bit of movement was coming between the spindle of the shock and the inner race of the bearing. she currently sits as it was. knock and all

[Roverlord off road spares]

You're very kind to post the procedure... and I hope I never have to refer to it! :D
do you have the link to it please.

[Homestar]

do you have the link to it please.

This is the thread I did on the rear tailshaft and how to replace the uni joint and centre bearing.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/238515-l322-rear-tailshaft-removal-refurbishment.html

[Graeme]

Was the stumbling block not being able to remove the nut or to remove the bearing from the shaft?

Was the slight looseness due to the bearing's inner race not fully clamped to the shaft or is there a more complex arrangement?

[chaybra]

Was the stumbling block not being able to remove the nut or to remove the bearing from the shaft?

Was the slight looseness due to the bearing's inner race not fully clamped to the shaft or is there a more complex arrangement?

Its all very very simple...I just think the cheaper replacements have some issues.
The photos attached show the replaced (Cheap part) shock spindle and the red lines show where the inner bearing race had been sitting. you can clearly see some slight amounts of wear from the bearing "jiggling"
the second shock spindle (one with the seals still attached) has probably 3 times the amount of kms to its name and has no sign of movement.
The bearing top shows the inside view of of the older inner race, there is no shiny metal surfaces in there so it hasnt been moving.

Unfortunately, the possibly over sized bearing had to go back on, i did replace the shock with the older one. however there has been no notable difference in the knocking noises. it still could be on the other side.

I will eventually replace with the arnotts upgraded bags and bearings when the time comes.

[Graeme]

So it appears that the after-market shaft dia is slightly undersize but the nut must not have been properly tight to allow the bearing to move. I haven't tried tightening mine's nuts yet as I still haven't replaced the lost Torx bit but am encouraged to do so ASAP.

[chaybra]

even with tightening, there was still movement. without the shaft diameter being spot on, it relies on the rubber seals to keep centered.

[Graeme]

Is the nut not able to be tightened sufficiently for it to stay clamped or is something stopping the bearing's inside flange from pressing properly against the step in the shaft? If the nut doesn't stay tight due to excess clearance then bearing retainer is the fix but it may be difficult to disassemble next time.

As my vehicle had only done 18K kms when I bought it, I doubt that its noise is due to excess bearing/shaft clearance.

[Graeme]

without the shaft diameter being spot on, it relies on the rubber seals to keep centered.Rubber seals wont keep it centred - it will move as far as the bearing/shaft free-play allows.

[Roverlord off road spares]

This is the thread I did on the rear tailshaft and how to replace the uni joint and centre bearing.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/l322-range-rover/238515-l322-rear-tailshaft-removal-refurbishment.html
Excellent write up Gav , into my pool room it goes for future reference.
Cheers,
Mario