Unsafe bull bars

[Longtimer]

G'Day Gents,

I was stuck in a bit of a mud hole yesterday, and had to be pulled to get me going again. The pull was just a straight pull from the shackle attached to the designated point on my ARB Delux Bull Bar. It wasn't a very hard pull, but it flexed the top of the bar backward (towards my panels) about 15mm according to the onlookers. No shock loading or anything.....

Through looking at it, it seems that there are maybe 2 bolts either side holding it onto the end of some brackets. The brackets seem to be only bolted to the top plate of the chassis.... And there are spacer plates between the bar's mounts and the brackets....

Is this common???

If I had a winch attached to it, and did some serious winching, I reckon I would have dented panels and a stuffed chassis. And probably no bull bar.
With the way it is, I would be claiming insurance for panel replacement if I hit a roo..... Supplied and fitted by ARB (or agent) on behalf of the LR dealer.

Has anyone else looked at modifying their bar to give it some actual strength in it's attachment to the chassis?
My D1 has a pressed channel section that goes over the chassis and bolts through the chassis horizontally. Also an ARB bar. So am mystified by the difference in serviceability.


Phill. (who's very disgruntled) :mad:

[weeds]

some photos will help

[Summiitt]

Check out my post in what did you do to your puma today, my delux bar did go back into the guards and front grille after a really big hit with 2 Roos at once..You should have bolts both down thru the chassis and bolts horizontal thru the chassis.

[Rolly]

Hi Phill,

I'm hoping your deluxe bull bar is different from mine. When I contacted ARB prior to fitting the BB and asked "where the attachment points for shackles, they replied that it doesn't have any!.
My solution was via APT steering guard as it has dedicated attachment points.

Not the answer you were looking for I know, however I thought I'd pass it on.

Cheers

Rolly

[cuppabillytea]

I've wondered about those recovery points. I haven't used them yet, but I have winched hard enough to drag the more than 2 Ton 110 Defender with all wheels locked, without flexing the bar.

[Bytemrk]

As Rolly points out.... just because there are rings on a bull bar, doesn't make then recovery points.

Might be worth asking ARB.

I am sure a few defender owners will chip in... but if I owned a defender I'd fit jate rings and carry a bridle for front recovery.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/797.jpg

[Bytemrk]

Longtimer,

Is this the ARB Bar that you have?..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/785.jpg

I notice here: ARB 4?4 Accessories | Frontal Protection - ARB 4x4 Accessories (http://www.arb.com.au/land-rover-defender-110-2009-present/frontal-protection/)

They describe: " Integrates durable tow points in the Hi-Lift jack recesses"

Which, I believe, means not designed for a snatch


Also from your description - it doesn't sound like its fitted properly - they should not flex like that.

As I said, I don't own a defender.... but every other Land Rover ARB Bull Bar that I have touched has had 2 bolts horizontally through the chassis plus one vertical. Are you sure nothing is loose under there?

[Slunnie]

Longtimer,

Is this the ARB Bar that you have?..

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/785.jpg

I notice here: ARB 4?4 Accessories | Frontal Protection - ARB 4x4 Accessories (http://www.arb.com.au/land-rover-defender-110-2009-present/frontal-protection/)

They describe: " Integrates durable tow points in the Hi-Lift jack recesses"

Which, I believe, means not designed for a snatch


Also from your description - it doesn't sound like its fitted properly - they should not flex like that.

I understood the change in terminology from recovery points to tow points many years ago was due to people using stupid recovery methods and then blaming the bar and ARB for failures. Keep in mind that the bars are well designed and are more than capable of withstanding a double line winch from the biggest winch you can get in there. It however is probably not designed to be snatched with a chain and a tractor.

Also, my bar was loose and rotated also. The crush cans (Defender may not have these) subsequently cracked from the movement. ARB Orange noted the and remounted the bar to prevent movement and correct the angle - not sure how sorry.

[p38arover]

If you are talking about those holes at the bottom of the bull bar on the fore-aft strakes of metal (see pic), they are not recovery points.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/792.jpg

[weeds]

You should have bolts both down thru the chassis and bolts horizontal thru the chassis.



Yep.....three bolts either side from memory.

[Marty90]

I understood the change in terminology from recovery points to tow points many years ago was due to people using stupid recovery methods and then blaming the bar and ARB for failures. Keep in mind that the bars are well designed and are more than capable of withstanding a double line winch from the biggest winch you can get in there. It however is probably not designed to be snatched with a chain and a tractor.

Also, my bar was loose and rotated also. The crush cans (Defender may not have these) subsequently cracked from the movement. ARB Orange noted the and remounted the bar to prevent movement and correct the angle - not sure how sorry.

This is the one I've got fitted to my13 defender.There are no towing provisions on this bar.Those holes are for a Hi-lift jack ,as far as I know. Definately not for snatch/towing.

[Beery]

If you are talking about those holes at the bottom of the bull bar on the fore-aft strakes of metal (see pic), they are not recovery points.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/792.jpg

I'd have thought they'd be fine as long as you use a spreader bar or sling between the two holes.
I'd never ever tow or snatch from one side only though.

[Longtimer]

OK. Here are some pic's and observations....

The bar is bolted to the bracket with 3 vertical bolts. The bar is 4mm thick (at most) there and is unsupported on the outside edge as it is a angle bracket welded to the unsupported 3mm vertical sheet withing the bar. Now there, is a major flex point!!! :( Plus the bolts are so close together that a small amount of flex will result in a large travel at the top of the bar. That's another design fault. :(
It also has a spacer plate between the bracket and the bar that is not under the vertical section of the roo bar. This will only increase the flex problems. :mad:

It is actually bolted through the chassis sideways, in 2 places. It's marvelous what you can see when there is no mud in the way.... :o
At the top bolt, there is a gap between the bracket and the chassis. This provides an insecure mounting to the chassis. That top bolt also doesn't pass through the chassis. This will really increase the amount of movement available. as the plates can move with no restrictions.

The 2 vertical bolts are through a reasonably strong point. But the foolishly designed bracket has slots on the underside. Gee.... That is going to stop a lot of travel of the bottom of the bracket.... NOT. :mad:

The bottom bolt goes through the chassis, which is good. My only question is, how close to the diameter of the hole is the bolt??? If they are not a close fit (less than 0.5mm difference in diameter) then there is more slop built in......


Well..... Now I can see why it flexed..... :confused::(:mad::(

[Tombie]

What's with the shackles? The bar has NO recovery points.

[Disco Muppet]

Not recovery points mate
And a hard snatch from the bottom of the bar is most definitely going to rotate the top edge back towards the bonnet, basic lever type movement/action.
I've been flat towed by my recovery points that mount to the same bolts as my bullbar to crush cans, and observed considerable rotation when slack was taken up at speed.
I then replace the bolts with upsized HT bolts and added the vertical bolt. No more rotation.
And Slunnie, the angle is corrected by adding the vertical bolts and I loosened the main bolts, aligned the bar correctly with the highlift under the lower horizontal tube and then tightened the bolts.
And discussions of winching off eyelets vs snatching has been done to death ;).

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[schuy1]

The problem with your mounts causing rotation lies in the fact that your bar is not a Defender specific bar!! It has been bodgied to fit from another vehicle. I await ARBs reaction when you take it in for inspection.!!

[weeds]

That not a defender bar.......

It might have an ARB sticker but I doubt ARB fitted it.......

[Dervish]

The problem with your mounts causing rotation lies in the fact that your bar is not a Defender specific bar!! It has been bodgied to fit from another vehicle. I await ARBs reaction when you take it in for inspection.!!


That not a defender bar.......

It might have an ARB sticker but I doubt ARB fitted it.......

I'm not sure if you two are serious, but that is a Defender ARB Deluxe bar (http://www.arb.com.au/land-rover-defender-110-2009-present/frontal-protection/).

[p38arover]

That not a defender bar.......

It might have an ARB sticker but I doubt ARB fitted it.......

It looks like the bar on page 1 of this thread.

[p38arover]

What's with the shackles? The bar has NO recovery points.

Are those square slots for a hilift jack?

[Bytemrk]

Are those square slots for a hilift jack?

Exactly Ron.

I think that is a Defender Bar, but the shackles are added in the highlift jack mount points - that is one reason the bar is rotating.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/111263d1468309248-unsafe-bull-bars-20160712_094045-s.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/785.jpg

What year is that Defender? The ARB site lists that Bar as suitable for 2009 - present. ( Earlier Defenders have a different Bar.)

It's hard to tell from the other photos if the bar has been installed correctly or not... but it was definitely never designed to pulled with a snatch strap down there.

I'd get the installation checked by ARB, but I'd still consider jate rings or similar.

[weeds]

I'm not sure if you two are serious, but that is a Defender ARB Deluxe bar (http://www.arb.com.au/land-rover-defender-110-2009-present/frontal-protection/).



Umm.......I was looking at the way it's been mounted to the chassis, maybe I should have said its not mounted correctly.......

If it's been mounted correctly than I stand corrected as I didn't realize they have changed things on the puma

[Tombie]

That not a defender bar.......

It might have an ARB sticker but I doubt ARB fitted it.......



Yes it is... Here's another member with one..
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/784.jpg

[Tombie]

In the OPs case.

A)It was used for recovery when it's not designed for attachment at that point.

B)It looks to have been poorly installed.

[weeds]

Yes it is... Here's another member with one..
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/07/784.jpg



Yeah yeah yeah.........my bad, hard to tell on my iPhone but what doesn't look right the the mounting to the chassis....need a photo looking down from the top.......

But I should but out as I'm not familiar with Pumas.

[p38arover]

I haven't had a Defender (I had a County) but wouldn't one want to recover from points in line with the chassis?

Muppet mentions eyebolts - my RRC had eyebolts in line with chassis but I don't know if they were suitable for snatching.

[Disco Muppet]

These are what I have Ron.
They've seen me hauled up rock faces, being dragged out of a deep muddy table drain, and dragging my FILs cruiser out when I sat it on its chassis. :p
These where what I was flat towed with, using a bridle strap. You can see the two bolts through the crush cans on the sides, plus there's the vertical one.
I only use the eyelets on the bullbar for securing my winch hook, or things like light duty dragging of things like trailers around the yard, some plant removal, although for larger stuff I go to the recovery points.
I also replace the bolts after big hits/recoveries, or at the least inspect, realign, and tighten.
But I'm pedantic :p

Sent from my HTC One using AULRO mobile app

[Bytemrk]

I haven't had a Defender (I had a County) but wouldn't one want to recover from points in line with the chassis?


Exactly why I suggested Jate Rings and a bridle....what ever you do, you don't want to pull on one chassis rail only

[schuy1]

well that would have to be the most horrible fitment imaginable if it is a correct for model bar. Aint no way in a month of sunday hangovers would I fit that bar. It looks like a snowplough off a Kenworth!! And would behave the same in a mudhole I suspect.

[4wheeler]

ARB make good equipment. I had the later series bar fitted to my 2007 Defender and it was one of the first fitted when they came out around 2010 from memory. I have the older style bar fitted to my 2013 Defender. From memory the mounting system looks right to me for that style bar. The older style bar has a simpler chassis mount.

The problem is that Land Rover built the Defender with such large tolerances that the bar designers have to have a large degree of variability built into their mounting plates etc. just so they can mount them up. You just have to look at a lot of the fittings that bolt to the chassis to see there is a good deal tolerance so they can fit them.

I have frequently found that the mounting bolts need to be re-tightened or at least checked as they can be in need of a tightening up at times - not just Defender but all bars. Obviously check the specifications with the supplier of the bar.

[Tombie]

Yeah yeah yeah.........my bad, hard to tell on my iPhone but what doesn't look right the the mounting to the chassis....need a photo looking down from the top.......

But I should but out as I'm not familiar with Pumas.



Puma chassis is exactly the same as all before it.

[Tombie]

well that would have to be the most horrible fitment imaginable if it is a correct for model bar. Aint no way in a month of sunday hangovers would I fit that bar. It looks like a snowplough off a Kenworth!! And would behave the same in a mudhole I suspect.



Works better for approach than older versions.

[PAT303]

I have an ARB bar on my Tdi that has washers on it to make up the gaps everywhere,Tracey's TDCi has a winch bar that I imported from MM Land Rover and fitted in my drive way,it fits perfectly without any gaps,fits so well in fact it needed to be fitted square to the front of the vehicle or it would bind.Maybe the UK manufacturers need to show the Australian ones how to use a ruler :angel:. Pat

[Jan]

I have ordered an ARB deluxe bar beginning of May 2016 - standard black color. Not arrived yet - but had the opportunity to see the same bar mounted on a new (A/C equipped) 110. I put my fingers into the square shaped lower hi-lift jacking points - there definitely seems to be a horizontal recovery eye in the corner/s nearest to the winch-/registration plate area. It is hidden - and you can feel it much better than you can see it. I saw it at an auto show and it was evening - which made the recovery eyes even more "invisible". But the shackle would not fit in the way of the OP's picture - page 138 of the 2015 ARB International catalog - if you download as PDF and then magnify quite a bit - you may (just) see it on the driver's side.

[schuy1]

Works better for approach than older versions.

The pic must be a bad angle or something as I was sure it would have a worse approach angle than my gen landrover bar. which is possible as photo angles can be deceiving sometimes. still looks ugly though:p

[Tombie]

I have ordered an ARB deluxe bar beginning of May 2016 - standard black color. Not arrived yet - but had the opportunity to see the same bar mounted on a new (A/C equipped) 110. I put my fingers into the square shaped lower hi-lift jacking points - there definitely seems to be a horizontal recovery eye in the corner/s nearest to the winch-/registration plate area. It is hidden - and you can feel it much better than you can see it. I saw it at an auto show and it was evening - which made the recovery eyes even more "invisible". But the shackle would not fit in the way of the OP's picture - page 138 of the 2015 ARB International catalog - if you download as PDF and then magnify quite a bit - you may (just) see it on the driver's side.



It's a brace in there with a clearance gap to prevent mud settling behind it.

[Tombie]

I have an ARB bar on my Tdi that has washers on it to make up the gaps everywhere,Tracey's TDCi has a winch bar that I imported from MM Land Rover and fitted in my drive way,it fits perfectly without any gaps,fits so well in fact it needed to be fitted square to the front of the vehicle or it would bind.Maybe the UK manufacturers need to show the Australian ones how to use a ruler :angel:. Pat



Think you fluked one Pat.

Measure 5 defenders and the chassis rails will have a variance of up to 10-15mm

[strangy]

Think you fluked one Pat.

Measure 5 defenders and the chassis rails will have a variance of up to 10-15mm
Divide that by the number of defenders measured you get tolerance of 2 to 3mm, quite acceptable..
What?..isnt that how the factory do it?:angel:

[barkingmad]

Divide that by the number of defenders measured you get tolerance of 2 to 3mm, quite acceptable..
What?..isnt that how the factory do it?:angel:

That was the way they did it... :( back in the olden days when the factory were still making defenders

[jimr1]

Hi , I still have both ARB winch bars , The earlier winch bar is a better bar than the later Delux bar . For those that don't know it comes as a one piece bar , you have to drill extra holes in the chasse They sit further forward , have better access to the winch spool lever , and can see the cable , or rope a lot better . They are very well made and very strong . The Delux Bar comes in 3 pieces , with sims to get the thing level , So the front part of the bar is held on by bolts to the two chasse mounts , Also it sits very close to the front grill . The bar is heavy and well made also , but is poor designed . When I talked to ARB about some issues I was having , they weren't very interested . That was a big disappointment . I think I might get the front welded to the two chasse mounts making a lot stronger , that would stop it twisting back into the front of my truck , Also if it was winching . I do like the look of the Delux bar over the earlier bar , but there is nowhere to put the winch hook ? Jim .

[Summiitt]

Hi , I still have both ARB winch bars , The earlier winch bar is a better bar than the later Delux bar . For those that don't know it comes as a one piece bar , you have to drill extra holes in the chasse They sit further forward , have better access to the winch spool lever , and can see the cable , or rope a lot better . They are very well made and very strong . The Delux Bar comes in 3 pieces , with sims to get the thing level , So the front part of the bar is held on by bolts to the two chasse mounts , Also it sits very close to the front grill . The bar is heavy and well made also , but is poor designed . When I talked to ARB about some issues I was having , they weren't very interested . That was a big disappointment . I think I might get the front welded to the two chasse mounts making a lot stronger , that would stop it twisting back into the front of my truck , Also if it was winching . I do like the look of the Delux bar over the earlier bar , but there is nowhere to put the winch hook ? Jim .

Your hook should fit into the recovery points within the highlife jack mount on your delux bar or put a shackle onto it..

[jimr1]

Your hook should fit into the recovery points within the highlife jack mount on your delux bar or put a shackle onto it..
I know you can fit a shackle , What I should have said is , as we all know the earlier bar has two tie down loops as part of the bar . The Delux doesn't have these loops or holes that the winch hook fits into . My hook does fit into the high lift jacking point , but I don't like it there as much as the earlier loop . Simply because you have to put a bit more load on the cable to get the hook to stay in place !!.. Jim :)

[Tombie]

You shouldn't hook like that anyway.

All line should be retracted into the hawse.

Hooking on leaves the first foot or two exposed and induces a weak point - especially if using synthetic.

[jimr1]

You shouldn't hook like that anyway.

All line should be retracted into the hawse.

Hooking on leaves the first foot or two exposed and induces a weak point - especially if using synthetic.
Hi , I can understand having a foot of plasma rope hanging out of the front wouldn't be good for the rope , Grit stones , sun ect . I have a steel rope . I don't like just the hook sticking out the front , I liked how It fitted quiet nice on the older bar loop out of the way . I don't like the cable being to tight on the drum especially if the cable isn't wound on in layers , as they never rewind like that . Jim..

[Tombie]

Same problem with SWR sitting out the front..
Doesn't need to be tight either just enough to keep hook sideways against hawse [emoji6]

Only passing on experience and advice. To each their own...

I keep my hook in the vehicle and the rope attached up front with a cable tie - that way any failure causing it to take off only results in just a simple snapped cable tie and flat battery...

[jimr1]

Same problem with SWR sitting out the front..
Doesn't need to be tight either just enough to keep hook sideways against hawse [emoji6]

Only passing on experience and advice. To each their own...

I keep my hook in the vehicle and the rope attached up front with a cable tie - that way any failure causing it to take off only results in just a simple snapped cable tie and flat battery...
I like that idea of keeping the hook in the vehicle , After all that's where the control should live . To be honest I don't use my winch very much . Most use it's had is helping other people out , I think I'm drifting off topic !!.. Jim

[strangy]

I like that idea of keeping the hook in the vehicle , After all that's where the control should live . To be honest I don't use my winch very much . Most use it's had is helping other people out , I think I'm drifting off topic !!.. Jim
I like this too.
I fitted up my current shape ARB bar to the Defender a few weeks ago. I m quite happy with the fit up and strength of the whole assembly.
It does sit close to everything but certainly no closer than other vehicle/bar combos.

[jimr1]

I like this too.
I fitted up my current shape ARB bar to the Defender a few weeks ago. I m quite happy with the fit up and strength of the whole assembly.
It does sit close to everything but certainly no closer than other vehicle/bar combos.
I found I had to fit one shim , on drivers side , and 3 on the passenger side . I'm having new shims made that are 10mm and 4mm thick covering a larger area than the ARB ones , this will put the bar just a little further forward , and that will suit me , plus give me just a bit more room to get to spool lever !!.. Jim

[Blknight.aus]

Same problem with SWR sitting out the front..
Doesn't need to be tight either just enough to keep hook sideways against hawse [emoji6]

Only passing on experience and advice. To each their own...

I keep my hook in the vehicle and the rope attached up front with a cable tie - that way any failure causing it to take off only results in just a simple snapped cable tie and flat battery...

I do something similar, the hooks velcro'd to the controller and a shackle under the drivers seat and the cable has a rope tied through the eyelet thats then tied to the bar work, the cables then wound on until the rope is "tight" which is usually 1-2 wraps of the drum with the rope.