Jinxed?

[~Rich~]

Hi all,
Well I did my 5773k trip without an issue, now home I put my D3 into get another whine diagnosed.

I'm sort of happy it wasn't the alternator but now I would of preferred it to be! (after 4 since Anzac W/E)

The whine is apparent to vary with engine speed, it has been found one of the serpentine belt idler pulleys is starting to rumble which is easy to fix.

But the real noise is the A/C compressor :(
Diagnosis has shown up as black death ( A/C fluid is black at port) meaning the compressor is cactus.

Worst is the chance that the receiver drier may have not trapped all the metal in it's filter and it could be throughout my system incl the rear A/C.

This of course is very hard to clean out, so I'm getting a quote on new compressor & receiver drier fitted and a system flush ( not a total clean at this stage depending on what we find in the pipe downline from the receiver dryer)

It may be at the least $3000 to fix and maybe more.

At the moment my car is running a shorter serpentine belt so the A/C compressor is not turning, these compressors are different to the old fashion clutch type. They are a constant variable output from 0 to 100% depending on load so if you just turn it off in the cab it is still turning.

So it really comes down to what I want to spend on the beast, I could put a second hand compressor and receiver drier on it and maybe sell it quick or do I invest in trying to fix it?

Has anyone else had this sort of issue?

[BobD]

My compressor was getting very slow to start cooling and cooling, when it got going, was slightly down. The indie didn't want to replace it but I insisted and now it works perfectly. $2500 and two solid days work to replace through a tiny gap at the bottom left that you can just get your hand through and it is now perfect. They reckon they will take the body off for the next one! It was replaced a couple of months ago at about 210,000km.


After my recent 14,000km trip in five weeks my left turbo is now whistling loudly and will need the body off to replace. I should have waited till then to change the compressor! At least the air con was working well in the heat of northern Australia in May so it was worth doing the A/C.

[TuffRR]

I feel your pain. After reading one of the threads a few weeks ago about an alternator going on a D4, i had a premonition that this would be the next issue with mine.
Fast forward 2 weeks and the wife says the car is making a whining noise. :censored:
1 new alternator later, back on the road. Next service is now due and have brake pad warning light just coming on too.
Repairs just aren't that cheap with these things. I think thats something that has to be acknowledged if you're going to buy one.

[LandyAndy]

Any idea how much use the aircon system has had????
The climate control is so good on mine Ive never turned it off.
Wondering if this is a good thing to be doing now.
Andrew

[~Rich~]

11 yrs & 230,000k Andy, seldom off!

[LandyAndy]

So,at those kms,using it all the time shouldnt have caused it to fail.Perhaps breakdown of the lubrication oil,may be worth doing a flush/re-gas/oil change at 100 or 150K as preventative maintence???
Andrew

[~Rich~]

Yes, I posted in another topic about a small whine I had that only when it was on.
Yes looking at hindsight I probably should of had it serviced earlier, maybe even every 5yrs would of been the go.
A new receiver dryer should be fitted at the same time.

[BobD]

So,at those kms,using it all the time shouldnt have caused it to fail.Perhaps breakdown of the lubrication oil,may be worth doing a flush/re-gas/oil change at 100 or 150K as preventative maintence???
Andrew


Why do you say that Andie? Mine is on all the time and it failed at 200,000km. The same type of always on compressor failed on my VW Multivan at about 110,000km. If you look it up on the web they fail at these sorts of km when they have some wear in the valve that operates the variable displacement and they are slow to start cooling. If they go too long they fail properly and wreck the system like Rich's air con may have done.


The forums are full of stuff about the variable displacement air con compressors and how to fix them or what goes wrong with them. They just wear out I reckon. Changing the oil may help but I'm no expert so I don't really know. I think they stay on even when you switch the air con off so that is not much of a solution. The displacement just gets reduced to zero so they don't pump.

[LandyAndy]

Perhaps they do just wear out Bob.
Im suggesting that a flush and change before the time they are flogged out to keep them servicable for longer.
Andrew

[BobD]

Perhaps they do just wear out Bob.
Im suggesting that a flush and change before the time they are flogged out to keep them servicable for longer.
Andrew


Yeah, I know what you meant. The trouble is there is no sign of anything wrong until the delayed cooling syndrome starts and even then they work pretty well once they start to cool and there are no other problems, often for years. Anything that can delay the replacement of an expensive, inaccessible part can only be a good thing! You would need to ask an air con repairer whether there is anything to gain by flushing and changing the oil at some earlier mileage.

[Grentarc]

My Saab has a variable displacement compressor, MY03 with 317,000 kms on the original Denso compressor. What brand does LR use?
Although I bet I now have issues since I mentioned it still works - been having lots of problems with it since a person "helped" jumpstart it for my wife by putting his jumper leads on back to front.

[hv_man]

Just purchased my MY11 SDV6 just over a month ago with 100k on the clock.
It developed a tonal whistling type noise on the way home plus a few other issues over the next few days. I worked out the noise was only present when the AC was on.

Luckily for me I purchased from a good LR dealer who fix it all no questions. New AC comp, dryer++, new Thermo clutch on the cooling fan( was making a clicking noise ) new battery. It's all good now :)

I had to replace the AC compressor on my Volvo XC90 V8 last year the cost of the compressor was hideous just about 1600+ OEM ( about the same as the D4)
I came across orion compressors in Brisbane who import OEM parts from the US.
Ended up paying $720 for an OEM part delivered to my door with warranty as well.
Needless to say my mechanic was speechless and now uses this supplier.

Would be worth contacting them with the part number to see what they can offer

[BobD]

My Saab has a variable displacement compressor, MY03 with 317,000 kms on the original Denso compressor. What brand does LR use?
Although I bet I now have issues since I mentioned it still works - been having lots of problems with it since a person "helped" jumpstart it for my wife by putting his jumper leads on back to front.



I wonder if the operating environment temperature affects the compressor life? Perth is relatively hot and gives air cons a good work out for most of the year. I have also used my D4 a lot in the hot outback and towed lots of times with air temps over 40. Does your Saab air con operate at high capacity most of the time or is the environment a bit kinder where you drive?


Given that my compressor was still working OK at 210,000 km (it was just gradually taking longer and longer to start cooling) I would guess that most people would just live with it for a few more years rather than replace it. The air con people didn't seem to think there was much wrong with it when testing it but it was starting to get annoying and I knew it wasn't right, so I instructed them to replace it. It is back to the normal D4 perfection now!

[Grentarc]

I wonder if the operating environment temperature affects the compressor life?

Maybe? Wagga has pretty cold winters and pretty hot summers.
I also note that although the compressor sits next to the turbo on the Saab, it has a pretty decent heat shield between the two, and the rear of the compressor is in the path of air flowing from the thermo fan.

[~Rich~]

Well the D3 goes in on Monday for most likely the whole week. :(
Quote was $3513 for a new genuine compressor, genuine condenser/dryer plus 12 hrs labour, gas & oil etc. He is going to pull it apart and inspect / clean as required. The bill may end up higher!

[Grentarc]

How many failed compressors are in cars with rear air? Just thinking that rear air will require the compressor to run at higher capacity more than a front only vehicle...

[scarry]

How many failed compressors are in cars with rear air? Just thinking that rear air will require the compressor to run at higher capacity more than a front only vehicle...

Do the models with rear air use the same compresser,and condenser?
They may be different from the no rear air model,larger capacity.

[BobD]

Mine does not have rear air. There are lot of slow to start compressors in FFRR's as well. There was a lot of discussion on that part of the forum last year.

[sheerluck]

How many failed compressors are in cars with rear air? Just thinking that rear air will require the compressor to run at higher capacity more than a front only vehicle...

Would it though? I would have thought that having rear air would give a greater cooling capacity, keeping the interior temperature better regulated, and therefore meaning the compressor would be under less strain.

I don't know either way, just trying to think the logic through.

[Grentarc]

Do the models with rear air use the same compresser,and condenser?
They may be different from the no rear air model,larger capacity.
There is only 1 part number for both compressor and condenser whether there is rear air or not, with the D3 having a VIN dependent compressor part number.

[scarry]

There is only 1 part number for both compressor and condenser whether there is rear air or not, with the D3 having a VIN dependent compressor part number.

Interesting,so presume evaporators are the same as well.

So how does the compresser work?

Does it load up,as someone has previously said on here?

If it does,what tells it to load up?

[sheerluck]

There's 2 evaporators Paul, 1 front, 1 rear.

[BobD]

Here is my understanding of roughly how the VDC works.


There is a pressure control valve (PCV) which diverts compressor pressure to operate the variable displacement swash plate. If there is not enough pressure when the displacement is at minimum when it starts the swashplate won't tilt to increase the displacement, hence cooling won't start. Once it starts to tilt the pressure rapidly increases and then the wear in the valve doesn't matter.


I think it takes lowered pressure due to compressor wear plus a worn PCV to cause the issues to start. Sometimes replacing the PCV will fix it for a short time but the valve is usually stuffed from general wear of everything else so a new one doesn't last long, from what I read. Hence I asked for a new compressor which has fixed the problem 100% over the last 20,000km of high temperature driving.


It is enlightening to look up variable displacement compressors and see how they work. I assume that the LR version is externally controlled by an ECU and not internally controlled as older types were.

[cafe latte]

Glad I have a Defender when you guys talk about taking the body off to fix an engine issue!!
Chris

[LandyAndy]

Glad I have a Defender when you guys talk about taking the body off to fix an engine issue!!
Chris

It is designed to come off,from those who do them all the time they say its not that bigger deal.
Andrew

[sheerluck]

At the risk of derailing the thread...

I can't understand why people get hung up on the whole lift the body thing. If you see it in action, you'd understand that it's actually a great piece of engineering. After all, you don't object to having a bonnet do you?

Yes it means that major repairs are out of the reach of Joe Average DIYER, but realistically, how many would really do an engine change?

2 hours, maybe 2.5, and you have a peeled D3.

[cafe latte]

At the risk of derailing the thread...

I can't understand why people get hung up on the whole lift the body thing. If you see it in action, you'd understand that it's actually a great piece of engineering. After all, you don't object to having a bonnet do you?

Yes it means that major repairs are out of the reach of Joe Average DIYER, but realistically, how many would really do an engine change?

2 hours, maybe 2.5, and you have a peeled D3.

I have swapped so many engines I cant remember how many, but I would not want to remove the body to remove an engine. Most have been easy except a Fiat Regatta diesel. The engine was is the Fiat van at the time and diesel was becoming popular so Fiat in their wisdom decided to fit an engine in the Regatta that to be honest did not fit. To change the starter motor you needed to remove the engine mounts and drop the engine. To remove the head the engine needed to come out, myself and my dad worked for two days until dad spat the dummy and we pulled the engine. One reason I like the Defender is it can still (just) be worked on. Probably the days of fitting new liners, pistons and rings are over (so much for the world becoming green, rant rant), but I dont want to remove the body to change a compressor for the aircon which should be an hour tops. This is not just a Landy issue, too many cars are going this way.
Chris

[scarry]

There's 2 evaporators Paul, 1 front, 1 rear.

I knew that,just thinking if no rear air maybe the front evap is bigger,therefore taking more of the load,and balancing the refrigeration system.

But it seems the compresser and condenser can handle the increased load of the rear evap,when used,and reduced load of just the front evap.

[Celtoid]

At the risk of derailing the thread...

I can't understand why people get hung up on the whole lift the body thing. If you see it in action, you'd understand that it's actually a great piece of engineering. After all, you don't object to having a bonnet do you?

Yes it means that major repairs are out of the reach of Joe Average DIYER, but realistically, how many would really do an engine change?

2 hours, maybe 2.5, and you have a peeled D3.

I read, the learning curve for LR, after so many turbo issues on the first few builds of the D4 .... which actually turned out to be less about the turbos I believe....got the maintenance guys to a body off scenario in less than 1 hour.

Then you have free reign over the suspension, the engine, the transmission, brakes, etc, etc, etc.

It's a paradigm shift for old schoolers in the automotive world but not such a biggy on a car that will never need that sort of attention that often ... unlike other brands and models.

Look at aircraft designs ..... they've been splitting bodies and modularising all sorts of things for a very long time ..... it's not a new concept at all. It's an actual good outcome of Logistics Engineering and Design Engineering.

[~Rich~]

Update:

Picked the car up late last week, luckily the receiver dry filter exit side was clear so yes it was great it had not contaminated the rest of the system.

New genuine compressor, condensor ( radiator looking thing in front of the real radiator) receiver / dryer, gas & oil and labour. $3513

All good again.

[NomadicD3]

Here is my understanding of roughly how the VDC works.


There is a pressure control valve (PCV) which diverts compressor pressure to operate the variable displacement swash plate. If there is not enough pressure when the displacement is at minimum when it starts the swashplate won't tilt to increase the displacement, hence cooling won't start. Once it starts to tilt the pressure rapidly increases and then the wear in the valve doesn't matter.


I think it takes lowered pressure due to compressor wear plus a worn PCV to cause the issues to start. Sometimes replacing the PCV will fix it for a short time but the valve is usually stuffed from general wear of everything else so a new one doesn't last long, from what I read. Hence I asked for a new compressor which has fixed the problem 100% over the last 20,000km of high temperature driving.


It is enlightening to look up variable displacement compressors and see how they work. I assume that the LR version is externally controlled by an ECU and not internally controlled as older types were.

Hey Rich,
I had the "Black death" issue in the A/C unit about 4 or 5 years ago and at the time the repairer, a gentleman in his 60's whom had been repairing Ac's most of his working life, commented that alot of the new Ac's had the "high efficiency" condensors and he was off the belief that leaving the Ac running when you shut the vehicle down so that it was engaged at start up was one of the major causes of the "black death". It was years ago now so i'm a little sketchy on detail but it went something on the line of what BobD has posted here, it's about incorrect pressures at start up for a few seconds combined with the very small bore diameter of the high efficiency condensors being easily blocked. Since that conversation I have always turned the Ac off before I shut down the vehicle and don't turn it until after the vehicle was running. Obviously I can't prove that this is extending the life of the Ac but 140 000k's later through some pretty demanding environments and the Ac is still going strong.

Maybe good info, maybe old wives tail but it's part of the shut down procedure now LOL.
I hope you don't have anymore problems with it, at that price, you wouldn't want it to be a regular recurring event :(..
good luck
regards
Brian

[BobD]

Mine didn't start reducing its efficiency until about 190,000 km. Even then it still worked, just a delayed start and slightly reduced cooling. At least it didn't fail catastrophically as per Rich's compressor.