Intermittent power loss - Td5

[Brenton.T]

Hey all, Had this problem for a couple of weeks, and am not really sure which route to go. I've replaced the turbo hoses with silicone items, which had questionable fitment, and I put a new maf sensor and fuel pump in not long ago. Today I hooked it up to a scan tool, which just told me about an implausible cruise control signal. Cruise control still works, anyway, I doubt it's relevant to my current dilemma.

As it is, just after a cold start it's got no guts, and them maybe 15-20 seconds later it roars away. This same sort of thing will just randomly happen while I'm out and about.

I'm thinking it might be the turbo actuator, but before I start throwing money at it that I mightn't need to, I figured I'd see if someone had had a similar problem. Thanks in advance.

[bsperka]

Are you getting a reading from the maf? Sounds like there may be no signal from the maf due to the 15 to 20 delay then power (uses defaults after about this period of time). Faulty connector somewhere perhaps?

[Rok_Dr]

X2 checkng the Maf sensor and the contacts, also check the wiring from it to the Ecu which can get brittle across the front of the engine.

What scan tool are you using? The td5 though odb2 compliant doesn't use any of the standard codes except for the transmission. If the tool covers the engine and it has an instrument mode, see if it can read theairflow while running. A dud MAF may not throw a fault code but will give a flat line signal, where as a good MAF will range up to 500-600 depending on engine rpm. Otherwise if you have a good multimeter that can read high resistances, there is a thread some where on the forum which lists the resistances across the 3 pins. Finally you can unplug the Maf and it will use default settings, so the problem should no longer appear.

Cheers

Steve

[discorevy]

Is the pump noisey when you turn the ign on from cold ? , maf check / disconnect is a start point , but these symptoms from cold can also be the start of injector copper washers bypassing, which, after running for a few seconds wil bleed up giving you power back

[Brenton.T]

Thanks for the tips. I'll look into the maf, but it'll have to be with a multimeter. I have access to a bosch scanner, but it's pathetic and I'm yet to see work on anything but a Ford Explorer. I went to supercheap auto today and they scanned it (also bosch but different model) but they didn't check any of the readings of the values, just fault codes. I don't think it's the copper washers because if sometimes happens just while driving.

[Bohica]

There is bound to be a person with a Nanocom near you, that you could use to get better readings.
There is a list on here of users who can help. I'm a little bit tired after the game tonight. But I will be back home tomorrow, although Williamstown may be a bit of a hike.

Cheers

Bo

[Brenton.T]

Tested out the maf with a multimeter, and either I got a dodgy reading from the multimeter, or the maf is busted. When the engine was off, I was getting a reading of about 1.3 (or 1.6 not sure which but it was steady) while with the engine was on for some reason the reading was all over the place anything from 0 to 15.7 volts. I think I'm gonna need another scan to be sure.

[Rok_Dr]

You need to check the resistances across the 3 pins of the Maf sensor not the voltages.

Managed to find the thread with the figures.

http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/145235-td5-delayed-acceleration-low-engine-speeds-post1638565.html#post1638565

And check that your multimeter is capable of reading high resistances. Most of the cheap ones won't be able.

Cheers

Steve

[geordiepride]

Hey all, Had this problem for a couple of weeks, and am not really sure which route to go. I've replaced the turbo hoses with silicone items, which had questionable fitment, and I put a new maf sensor and fuel pump in not long ago. Today I hooked it up to a scan tool, which just told me about an implausible cruise control signal. Cruise control still works, anyway, I doubt it's relevant to my current dilemma.

As it is, just after a cold start it's got no guts, and them maybe 15-20 seconds later it roars away. This same sort of thing will just randomly happen while I'm out and about.

I'm thinking it might be the turbo actuator, but before I start throwing money at it that I mightn't need to, I figured I'd see if someone had had a similar problem. Thanks in advance.

MAF sensor will give the 20 second delay on start up but it shouldn't give any issiues while (driving failed sensor only ) unless you have a short in the wire some where

do you still have EGR if so remove the MAP sensor and clean

[justinc]

MAF will cause these problems if dirty too. The range of kg/hr at idle should be 50 to 60 approx, and at a good sharp full rev see a min of 500.
Try using some contact cleaner on the gilaments but do not try and touch them with a cotton bud or similar.

Jc

[JoeFriend]

The simplest test I can think of to see if the MAF is gone is just unplug it and drive around for a while. It will have default settings then so you may use a bit more fuel but if it works perfectly get a new MAF, and ensure its genuine.

[Brenton.T]

Tested out the maf, and it seems to be fine. Had it hooked up to a nanocom today courtesy of johntins, and there weren't any fault codes either. The only thing that caught my attention was that boost is topping out at 1.16Kpa, apparently. (1.16Kpa = 0.0116 bar, and 0.168 psi) This reading doesn't really make sense because the car isn't that slow. I mean, sometimes it feels like it hasn't got any boost, like the intermittent problem, but not all the time.

Anyway, after that I pulled the ecu out and checked the plug, which happened to be full of oil. While I'm definitely going to fix it, do think this will solve my problem? Shouldn't there be other symptoms?

[JoeFriend]

Oil in ECU harness presents itself in lots of different ways, so could be part of the issue. If your boost is that low on nanocom, then I would also suggest pulling your MAP sensor out and giving it a clean, then recheck on nanocom for correct boost.

[Brenton.T]

Ok, I'll pull the map out and have a look see.

www.discovery2.co.uk / Workshop /Injector Harness (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/Injector_harness.html)

This looks like a pretty comprehensive guide to the injector harness, so hopefully mine will be straight forward to. I've heard the some people just pull the harness out, degrease it and put it back in. But that just sounds like I'd be putting off the inevitable.

[JoeFriend]

Yep, replace it. You can buy ones that somewhat fix the issue, I just bought an oil resistant sealant and filled in the plugs before installing it.

[Brenton.T]

Yep, replace it. You can buy ones that somewhat fix the issue, I just bought an oil resistant sealant and filled in the plugs before installing it.

As in the plugs that go on the injectors?

I read that I should get the later model harness, but the latest I can find is 2001 onward. Is that it?

Also, cleaned the map. Hasn't cured the intermittent power loss but wow. I had no idea it was down on power.

[JoeFriend]

Haha, well - glad to hear you sorted one issue and found another before it got worse!

RE sealant - plugs that go onto injectors and also where the harness meets the block. Push it right in there. Electric and oil resistant sealant for obvious reasons!

No idea RE the harness, I just bought whatever, wasn't even aware there was a difference.

You can contact Mario and Heather at Roverlord (on this forum and also have an eBay store) they will sell you one and are super easy to deal with. In fact, they will sell you most service items you will need of you plan on doing it mostly yourself so make friends with them early.

[Tins]

Haha, well - glad to hear you sorted one issue and found another before it got worse!

RE sealant - plugs that go onto injectors and also where the harness meets the block. Push it right in there. Electric and oil resistant sealant for obvious reasons!

No idea RE the harness, I just bought whatever, wasn't even aware there was a difference.

You can contact Mario and Heather at Roverlord (on this forum and also have an eBay store) they will sell you one and are super easy to deal with. In fact, they will sell you most service items you will need of you plan on doing it mostly yourself so make friends with them early.

Second the Mario and Heather endorsement.

[Tins]

Let me know if you want the Nanocom again. I'm around most of the time ATM.

[justinc]

Also worth testing to see if the wastegate is actually closing off. A manual boost gauge would be a good idea too for testing purposes

Jc

[JoeFriend]

Good point JC - and while getting all these parts and doing this work you may as well get silicone hoses, clean out the intercooler and remove the egr if not already done. You can get egr kits that have a port for a boost gauge.

[Brenton.T]

Intercooler has been cleaned out and it's already got silicone hoses. In regards to the egr, the kit's themselves aren't too pricey, but when you add everything up, being the egr removal kit, catch-can, boost and egt guage AND the the harness, the dollars are creeping up.

I could be wrong about the catch can, but from memory, removing the egr cause the turbo to suck oil from the crank case as if there's a boost leak or something.

$55.00 EGR
$100.00 catch can
$130.00 boost egt guage
$80.00 injector harness and rocker cover gasket (Bearmach) <-- This is probably going to be more expensive because I'm going away in a couple of weeks and it won't get here in time. I'll probably head of to roverland... or Eastern ranges prestige as it's called now.
$365.00 isn't actually as bad as I thought it'd be.

[JoeFriend]

What catch can are you looking at? Go Mann Hummel or nothing from what I know. I don't have one and I don't have more or less oil in the cooler. I also haven't heard that removing the egr causes the turbo to suck crank case gases, I don't see how the two are connected. Can you share something on that?

Roverlord will send you a harness and rocker cover gasket express post and will be with you the next day

[geordiepride]

Intercooler has been cleaned out and it's already got silicone hoses. In regards to the egr, the kit's themselves aren't too pricey, but when you add everything up, being the egr removal kit, catch-can, boost and egt guage AND the the harness, the dollars are creeping up.

I could be wrong about the catch can, but from memory, removing the egr cause the turbo to suck oil from the crank case as if there's a boost leak or something.

$55.00 EGR
$100.00 catch can
$130.00 boost egt guage
$80.00 injector harness and rocker cover gasket (Bearmach) <-- This is probably going to be more expensive because I'm going away in a couple of weeks and it won't get here in time. I'll probably head of to roverland... or Eastern ranges prestige as it's called now.
$365.00 isn't actually as bad as I thought it'd be.

if money is an issue
you can delete your egr for free all you need to do is make a blanking plate
then remove the butterfly flaps on the outside it still looks like egr is connected (but isn't )

catch can even the high end expensive catch cans will not catch 100%
purchase the cheapest catch can then just add in some wire wool

boost gauge for testing purchase a cheap one ..as for EGT gauge I wouldn't worry about that unless you have a heavy remap

as for the EGR this is only an emissions thing ..every engine will breath and vapour oil is inevitable ..if you have to much crank case pressure for a turbo to spill back oil ..would mean either a hole or a crack in the piston or well worn out rings leading to high crankcase pressure ..thus results the turbo can not allow to return oil quick enough... the the oil takes the easiest route

[Tins]

as for the EGR this is only an emissions thing ..every engine will breath and vapour oil is inevitable ..if you have to much crank case pressure for a turbo to spill back oil ..would mean either a hole or a crack in the piston or well worn out rings leading to high crankcase pressure ..thus results the turbo can not allow to return oil quick enough... the the oil takes the easiest route

Indeed.

I've seen the car and I would be around 95% sure it's none of those. Crankcase pressure should be evident simply by pulling the hose off the rocker cover, or even more simply by taking the oil cap off.

Brenton, have you checked that the waste gat actuator is working and not stuck? It's got a big spring, so it's a firm hand required, but it needs checking.

After that, I'd try bypassing the boost modulator. Just run a hose from the intercooler pipe direct to the wastegate. See how it drives then. If it has power then that eliminates the wastegate/turbo from the list.

If all else fails, post this up in 'Technical Chatter'. Far more of the 'gurus' read that.

FWIW, Brenton took me for a drive while I checked the boost in the Nanocom. Seriously, I thought my 300 with the seemingly stuffed turbo was gutless. But, the car starts and runs like a TD5. It blows no smoke. It does have that little 'hunting' thing going on at overrun, but a lot of them do that. While the .bar figures seem unrealistic, I have never driven an unboosted TD5. Maybe that's what they would be like. It feels, even from the passenger seat, to be non turbo. All it's lights are on, but there's nobody home.

[Tins]

if money is an issue
you can delete your egr for free all you need to do is make a blanking plate
then remove the butterfly flaps on the outside it still looks like egr is connected (but isn't )

catch can even the high end expensive catch cans will not catch 100%
purchase the cheapest catch can then just add in some wire wool

boost gauge for testing purchase a cheap one ..as for EGT gauge I wouldn't worry about that unless you have a heavy remap

as for the EGR this is only an emissions thing ..every engine will breath and vapour oil is inevitable ..if you have to much crank case pressure for a turbo to spill back oil ..would mean either a hole or a crack in the piston or well worn out rings leading to high crankcase pressure ..thus results the turbo can not allow to return oil quick enough... the the oil takes the easiest route

I can't find it now, but sierrafery has some tips about dropping the EGR, stuff I didn't know. I'll follow it up myself when my car comes home.

[Tins]

I should add, while Brenton's car exhibited oil at the ECU plug, the Nanocom showed no faults.

[Tins]

I can't find it now, but sierrafery has some tips about dropping the EGR, stuff I didn't know. I'll follow it up myself when my car comes home.

Well, I think it was you, SF, maybe posted on LandyZone?

[Brenton.T]

Wow, having to play catch up on my own thread 0.o Thanks for the posts and ideas.

I replaced the injector harness yesterday, which was pretty straight forward. Except for the rocker cover gasket, that took like 4 goes. Anyway, while doing that, I stood the ecu up to see if any oil would drain out, but nothing did so I didn't bother pulling the cover off and checking inside. I cleaned everything up, put it all back together and took it for a spin. And the intermittent power loss problem was gone.

Then comes this morning. Got in to drive to the physio, and it now just has a power problem. It's got no guts until about 2800rpm, and then it picks itself up and boogies along the road. I should also point out that it hasn't been feeling quiet as gutsy as it was just after I cleaned the map sensor. So I may have to pull that out again, and if it has all gunged up again, I'll go ahead and remove/block the egr and soak the inlet manifold in kero or something.

I'm heading up to echuka on friday and would like to have it sorted by then, but it seems I'm taking 1 step forward and 5 steps back. To bypass the boost modulator, can I just put a connector in and join the two hoses that are there? Right now my niece is 'playing' the piano and my nephew is loosing his mind over a cut, so I can't think straight. I'll check in again after.

[Tins]

To bypass the boost modulator, can I just put a connector in and join the two hoses that are there?

IIRC, there are THREE hoses there.So, leave the top one that goes to the intake connected, and join the other two, the bottom one that goes down to the pipe that connects the intercooler hoses, and the one sticking out to the RH side that goes to the wastegate actuator, together. Well, at least thats the way it is on mine. I'm assuming the update like yours is the same.

[Brenton.T]

Bypassed the boost modulator and I've still got the problem. Pulled the heat shield off the turbo to get a look at things, and while I could push the waste gate actuator, it took everything I had. So I disconnected the actuator from the turbo, and the actual turbo moves freely. Still confused, but I'm going to replace the map sensor tomorrow. Fingers crossed that does the trick.