Should tourists climb Uluru?

[bob10]

I say no.

Three men stuck in Uluru crevice for 16 hours | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/state/nt/2016/09/20/tourists-trapped-uluru/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20160921_TND)

[sheerluck]

I say no. The people who own it request that you don't, as it is sacred in their culture. You don't have to follow or believe in a particular culture, just have a little respect for those that do.

[weeds]

I climbed it back in 98 I think........

I cannot see why there cannot be a compromise.......I'm sure we drive through sacred land, pollute sacred land and continue to do so but as it doesn't create media attention and or no income can be made its different.

I believe they started reducing limiting climbing years ago once they took over control of gate takings.....prior to this I believe there wasn't to much, if any resistance to people climbing.

The highest peak in either NT or SA can be climbed under a permit and with a guide.....once again sacred land but there is a compromise.

So a yes from me with either a permit or guide (as I'm keen to learn about their culture and history)

[strangy]

Climb it as often as you can.

[DiscoMick]

Apart from it being a sacred site for male tribal ceremonies, there is also the safety issue with people having heart attacks or getting lost or falling, who then have to be rescued. We don't let people climb to the top of St Marys Cathedral, for example.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[vnx205]

There used to be a collection on plaques at the bottom listing those who had lost their lives on the rock.

My recollection is that most of them fell into two distinct groups: males in their 20s and males in their 60s. It's not hard to work out the different reasons for deaths in each of those two groups.

[JoeFriend]

As someone who is part Aboriginal - it's pretty disgraceful people climbing it. You wouldn't walk into a Buddhist temple with your shoes on, you wouldn't go into a church and start climbing over the alter, chairs etc so what is the difference here?

When the land was handed back to the traditional owners there was an agreement that climbing Uluru would still be allowed, but the elders were granted the please don't climb signs.

Having a guide that takes you up does not fix this issue, although deaths would be reduced - it isnt the point. if I had it my way, I would have left the three up there to die.

The tough bit is the tourist dollar helps the local communities, so it's a catch 22.

And to the person that says we drive through and pollute sacred areas - we probably do, but what is done is done. This is a pretty bloody simple fix, unlike a road.

[bob10]

Any one wishing to learn the culture and history of the Pitjandjara and their lands should read a book by Dr. C P Mountford, " Ayers Rock, Its people their beliefs and their art. " first published 1965. From the back cover;

Dr Mountford's remarkable career in exploration and anthropological research has been recognised by awards from from many sources.These include an Honorary Fellowship of the National Geographic society of America- a unique honour bestowed for his leadership of the Society's Arnhem Land expedition, for which he also received the rare Franklin Burr award for outstanding leadership. He is the only man to have led two National Geographic expeditions within Australia, one to Arnhem Land, and another to Melville Island, and has led eight expeditions for the University of Adelaide into the remote areas of the continent. He holds the Thompson Gold medal of the Royal Geographical Society of Qld. The John Lewis medal for Geographic research, given by the Royal Geographic society of S.A., and the Natural history medallion of Australia for Anthropological Research. His skilled photographic work among the aborigines has been recognised by the Sherlock Gold Cup and the Kodak medal.

It's a very interesting read. He has published ten other books on aborigines, some of which I'm trying to track down.

[bob10]

Mountfords biography. I am searching the Adelaide Uni. site for his books.Hopefully they are on their excellent E book site.

Biography - Charles Pearcy Mountford - Australian Dictionary of Biography (http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mountford-charles-pearcy-11188)

[bob10]

W C Gosse's explorations 1873. The man who named Ayers Rock.

W. C. Gosse's Explorations, 1873. (http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks13/1306451h.html)

[Pickles2]

Well, I did climb it, (when I was fit enough to do so!), and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life, which I will never, ever, forget,...and neither will Wifey.
Respect?...absolutely, and we knew exactly what we were doing, and where we were, when we climbed it.
Sacred sites?. I am a practising Anglican,..we have plenty of sacred sites, all over the World. A Church is a "sacred Site", and the Sanctuary is very much more so. We do not stop anyone from entering, they are free to enter any part of the Church they wish, as long as they remember where they are, and behave appropriately.
I cannot remember the names of the "Traditional Owners" of The Rock, I'm sure someone can tell me, I thought it began with an A, but from what I've read, there are divided views on what they would like to do. 50% apparently want to close it for climbing, but the other 50% want to close it, make it safer, allow climbing, and then charge for the climb, with which I do not have an issue.
So, my advice would be, if you can, and you need to be reasonably fit,...climb it,....it's an experience that you will never forget. But do not forget where you are, and what you are doing,.....and yes, of course show & think "respect", because this state of mind will obviously add, to what will be a most memorable experience.
Pickles.

[ramblingboy42]

Climb it as often as you can.

why are you saying that?

you have been asked not to by the traditional owners.

are you just being beligerant?

[donh54]

Any one wishing to learn the culture and history of the Pitjandjara and their lands should read a book by Dr. C P Mountford, " Ayers Rock, Its people their beliefs and their art. " first published 1965. From the back cover;

Dr Mountford's remarkable career in exploration and anthropological research has been recognised by awards from from many sources.These include an Honorary Fellowship of the National Geographic society of America- a unique honour bestowed for his leadership of the Society's Arnhem Land expedition, for which he also received the rare Franklin Burr award for outstanding leadership. He is the only man to have led two National Geographic expeditions within Australia, one to Arnhem Land, and another to Melville Island, and has led eight expeditions for the University of Adelaide into the remote areas of the continent. He holds the Thompson Gold medal of the Royal Geographical Society of Qld. The John Lewis medal for Geographic research, given by the Royal Geographic society of S.A., and the Natural history medallion of Australia for Anthropological Research. His skilled photographic work among the aborigines has been recognised by the Sherlock Gold Cup and the Kodak medal.

It's a very interesting read. He has published ten other books on aborigines, some of which I'm trying to track down.

How many awards have the Aboriginal people he studied and photographed presented him with?
Whilst all those awards he has got are probably a fine thing in the circles in which he moved, how many of his works merely continue the lip-service that has been portrayed over the years regarding the real history of those people, not just how they have been "advanced" under the benevolent rule of a government that, in living history, considered them as vermin on a par with wild dogs? :confused:

[weeds]

why are you saying that?



you have been asked not to by the traditional owners.



are you just being beligerant?



Are you a Yes or No? That's all the threads asks......

Its a public forum, if yes responses are going to offend you than report the thread and have it locked or deleted otherwise let each of us have our opinion.

It's a no brainer that the question would stir the pot and get reactions like yours.

[bob10]

[QUOTE=weeds;25897

It's a no brainer that the question would stir the pot and get reactions like yours.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. A mature discussion in an adult community, is possible. And there is no need for that comment, I believe, with respect.

[Bearman]

Let's please keep it civil lads. Everyone has their opinion on this and should be entitled to say it without being questioned.

[bob10]

How many awards have the Aboriginal people he studied and photographed presented him with?
Whilst all those awards he has got are probably a fine thing in the circles in which he moved, how many of his works merely continue the lip-service that has been portrayed over the years regarding the real history of those people, not just how they have been "advanced" under the benevolent rule of a government that, in living history, considered them as vermin on a par with wild dogs? :confused:

Comments such as this, are ill conceived, especially if you have not read his books. He knows more about aboriginal culture than any man I know. And his knowledge has advanced understanding in the white community. Those who want to listen, at least. It is a sad state of affairs we can not discuss this without resorting to hyperbole.

[strangy]

I disagree. A mature discussion in an adult community, is possible. And there is no need for that comment, I believe, with respect.

Obviously not the case, as apparently I am beligerant for commenting.

The topic will end the way it did last time.
Yes it has been done before..
i.e within 3 pages or so. being closed or retiring to the Current Affairs.

I could rabbit on about why I am more or less qualified to state this or that than the next person with a differing opinion and they will argue the opposite and insist my and anyone elses is incorrect,but who cares.

I will say this as a last comment

Aboriginal Australia has a hell of a lot more pressing issues than the bleating from groups about the handful of tourists that climb the Rock.
How about those concerned folk start opening their mouths to address the chronic health, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse (oh there is so much more)
Because debating closing, or not, the Rock or any other place aint gunna fix that.

[bob10]

Aboriginal Australia has a hell of a lot more pressing issues than the bleating from groups about the handful of tourists that climb the Rock.
How about those concerned folk start opening their mouths to address the chronic health, STDs, domestic violence, child abuse (oh there is so much more)
Because debating closing, or not, the Rock or any other place aint gunna fix that.

I hear what you say. I've been to Yuendamu, Papunya, Docker river,Bagot road, but you have to start somewhere. The groups who want the climbing stopped are aboriginal.

[bee utey]

Has anyone asked The Rock if it minds humans climbing it? I imagine it would be quite indifferent as it would be for ants or galahs. As for me, I've climbed it once which is enough for me. I got bad blisters on the way down which may of course have been The Rock's response, or just cheap boots...:angel:

Nice view though...:)

[bob10]

Well, I did climb it, (when I was fit enough to do so!), and it was one of the greatest experiences of my life, which I will never, ever, forget,...and neither will Wifey.
Respect?...absolutely, and we knew exactly what we were doing, and where we were, when we climbed it.
Sacred sites?. I am a practising Anglican,..we have plenty of sacred sites, all over the World. A Church is a "sacred Site", and the Sanctuary is very much more so. We do not stop anyone from entering, they are free to enter any part of the Church they wish, as long as they remember where they are, and behave appropriately.
I cannot remember the names of the "Traditional Owners" of The Rock, I'm sure someone can tell me, I thought it began with an A, but from what I've read, there are divided views on what they would like to do. 50% apparently want to close it for climbing, but the other 50% want to close it, .

Ularu is on the eastern boundary of the Pitjandjara tribe. Almost all of the rock has religious significence to the people. There are areas women must not go, where men must not go, and where uninitiated boys must not go. Are visitors allowed to go to the vestry, in your church, where the vestments are kept?

[Mick_Marsh]

or just cheap boots...:angel:
Cheap boots.


Nice view though...:)
Great view.

Should tourists climb Uluru? If they want. I've climbed it. I suffered no ill effects.
It's hard on the Achilles though.
It's not illegal. The tourism mobs encourage it.
Would I climb it again? No. Been there, done that. Next time I'm there, I'll take a walk around the rock. Just as tiring but more interesting I'm told.

Oh, remember to take water.

[Pickles2]

I will never forget the view from the top, when I finally reached it.
360 degree views of,...."redness",.....I could immediately see why this area is called the "Red centre",....and I could also see the Olgas.
Whilst I was taking it all in, and appreciating this superb, uninterrupted, view, which is AUSSIE, I just thought what a wonderful country we live in.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Cheap boots.


Great view.

Should tourists climb Uluru? If they want. I've climbed it. I suffered no ill effects.
It's hard on the Achilles though.
It's not illegal. The tourism mobs encourage it.
Would I climb it again? No. Been there, done that. Next time I'm there, I'll take a walk around the rock. Just as tiring but more interesting I'm told.

Oh, remember to take water.

Welcome to the conversation, Mick.

[bob10]

I will never forget the view from the top, when I finally reached it.
360 degree views of,...."redness",.....I could immediately see why this area is called the "Red centre",....and I could also see the Olgas.
Whilst I was taking it all in, and appreciating this superb, uninterrupted, view, which is AUSSIE, I just thought what a wonderful country we live in.
Pickles.

Welcome Pickles. Any thoughts on the traditional owners feelings?

[bob10]

Something to consider, but you have to have concentration, and patience.

http://www.nintione.com.au/resource/HHthesis.pdf

[weeds]

Bugger I thought this thread was in General Chat.....I have been caught out twice in the last week. I avoid this part of the forum.

Did this thread start in general??

[Blknight.aus]

funny how no-one was compaining about it and it was still heavily encouraged when all the proceeds was dontated back to the local indig community after it was first handed back to the original owners....

hang about....

The aboriginals were nomadic...

anyone want to put a pin in a timeline as to when the complaints restarted?

[bob10]

Bugger I thought this thread was in General Chat.....I have been caught out twice in the last week. I avoid this part of the forum.

Did this thread start in general??

No. I guess i have to say, on yer bike mate.

[bob10]

funny how no-one was compaining about it and it was still heavily encouraged when all the proceeds was dontated back to the local indig community after it was first handed back to the original owners....

hang about....

The aboriginals were nomadic...

anyone want to put a pin in a timeline as to when the complaints restarted?



Actually, that did not happen.I think it's called an urban myth.

[bee utey]

The Rock was there long before humans arrived and will be there long after they go, unless it's found to contain rare minerals and someone blows it up and carts it away. I say climb the rock if you wish, you won't do it any lasting harm. It would be different if it was built or substantially altered by human hands but it's not.

Now how about building a chair lift to the top, saves countless feet wearing a groove and a great money spinner for the locals? No-one needs to risk a dodgy ticker anymore... :)

[bob10]

The Rock was there long before humans arrived and will be there long after they go, unless it's found to contain rare minerals and someone blows it up and carts it away. I say climb the rock if you wish, you won't do it any lasting harm. It would be different if it was built or substantially altered by human hands but it's not.

Now how about building a chair lift to the top, saves countless feet wearing a groove and a great money spinner for the locals? No-one needs to risk a dodgy ticker anymore... :)

Yeah, champion. Keep trolling.

[67hardtop]

The Rock was there long before humans arrived and will be there long after they go, unless it's found to contain rare minerals and someone blows it up and carts it away. I say climb the rock if you wish, you won't do it any lasting harm. It would be different if it was built or substantially altered by human hands but it's not.

I think you've been reading my mind. I was halfway through writing a post saying exactly what you've said. I just got a phone call with some unfortunate news while i was typing it. I believe exactly what was said above. Its been there long before our indigenious brothers were here and will be there in a few million years time too except for humans blowing it up or worse. Live and let live. Enjoy it if you can. Ppl are just out to feather there nests at other ppls cost. If i ever get there then i will try to climb it myself if we are still allowed. Hell i'd drive my series 2a up it if i was allowed.

Now the the nay sayers comments....😆😆😆

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app

[Bytemrk]

I seem to have a knack for visiting the rock when it's windy.... so weather conditions have made the decision for me. Never climbed it, but walked around it a couple of times.

Should people be able to climb it - as this thread proves, it a contentious issue where each of us should make our own decision, while the option is still there.

I've never had a driving desire to check out the view.... if I did I'd probably fly over it.

The local people ask visitors not to climb.... and they do actually own it.

I reckon it's a decision for each individual..... but if you want to climb on the roof at my place, cause the view is good, and I asked you not to. I'd be pretty ****ed off if you ignored me.... :angel:

The lease agreement on the park doesn't expire until 2083.... but I suspect more events like the rescue of fellas that fell into that crevice this week - the more likely it will be closed for everyone.

[67hardtop]

...............
"I cannot remember the names of the "Traditional Owners" of The Rock, I'm sure someone can tell me, I thought it began with an A,".......
Pickles.[/quote]


I think u might be thinking of the Arrernti ppl, pickles.

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app[/SIZE]

[Bytemrk]

Anangu I believe

[Chops]

I was lucky enough to have climbed it when I was about 16. Was unfortunate enough to have been present at one of the deaths there at the time. A young guy and his mate had a rest about half way up or so, one had an epileptic fit I believe, and then basically rolled off the side. His mate of course was distraught.


Like Pickles, it was one of the greatest experiences of my life too,,, It helped shape my desire for travel and our outback. When I get back there with my partner, I hope we will be able to climb it again, although, I'd much rather have a guide to give me more info about it all.
I believe respect is the key word, and I think the indigenous should be proud to show it off.

[MrLandy]

I've never read a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull

Climing Uluru is one of the most sacrilegious, disrespectful things you can do on the planet.

You all know it's wrong and the deliberate flouting of this makes me sick.

Get over your arrogant colonial selfishness.

If you think my response is strong, it's nothing compared to how the Anangu people feel, every time someone knowingly disrespects such a significant sacred site, by climbing Uluru.

Moderators, this entire thread should be deleted.

[weeds]

I've never a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull****.

Climing Uluru is one of the most sacrilegious, disrespectful things you can do on the planet.

You all know it's wrong and the deliberate flouting of this makes me sick.

Get over your arrogant colonial selfishness.

If you think my response is strong, it's nothing compared to how the Anangu people feel, every time someone knowingly disrespects such a significant sacred site, by climbing Uluru.

Moderators, this entire thread should be deleted.



Why should it be deleted? question was asked and members have responded.........doesn't mean we should cop a spray from you.

Haven't you got better things to do in the D5 forum.

[MrLandy]

Well weeds, if it's not deleted, I'm out. No room for racism in my world.

My post is nowhere near as offensive as the majority of those above.

[pop058]

I've never read a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull

Climing Uluru is one of the most sacrilegious, disrespectful things you can do on the planet.

You all know it's wrong and the deliberate flouting of this makes me sick.

Get over your arrogant colonial selfishness.

If you think my response is strong, it's nothing compared to how the Anangu people feel, every time someone knowingly disrespects such a significant sacred site, by climbing Uluru.

Moderators, this entire thread should be deleted.

Everyone is entitled to have and express their opinion, yourself included. If no rules are being abused, why should the thread be deleted ?.


Well weeds, if it's not deleted, I'm out. No room for racism in my world.

Ignorant, arrogant,, disrespectful, maybe even "bogan bull", but what is racist about the thread.

[weeds]

Well weeds, if it's not deleted, I'm out. No room for racism in my world.



How are we being racist???

Isn't it funny how we are now instantly labeled for having a say, a discussion, a view.....

there is plenty of discussion about this exact topic at the moment, I'm looking forward to Hack on Thursday night.

I'm certainly far from racist but I do have an opinion........

[Tombie]

:popcorn:

[MrLandy]

How are we being racist???

Isn't it funny how we are now instantly labeled for having a say, a discussion, a view.....

there is plenty of discussion about this exact topic at the moment, I'm looking forward to Hack on Thursday night.

I'm certainly far from racist but I do have an opinion........

Such blatant disrespect towards another cultures beliefs is racist.

[Tombie]

My Grand Parents did it when it was Ayers Rock..

I wouldn't do the climb, but I will happily do their walking tour.

[Blknight.aus]

Actually, that did not happen.I think it's called an urban myth.

in the same way that the reason why most of the call outs and "events" requiring police involvement around here is "racial profiling/prejudice" as opposed to the simplicity of it just being a representation of those who are causing the issues.

[pop058]

Such blatant disrespect towards another cultures beliefs is racist.

No it is not, it is just someones opinion.

[MrLandy]

...it's also political and should be deleted for that reason also.

[Bytemrk]

MRLandy, I'm not sure specifically where you see a racist comment - please feel free to report the specific post as none of the Moderation team would support racism.

However, opinions are a different thing, this a very divisive topic, and opinions seem to polarise at opposite ends. There are definitely opinions here that I do not agree with, however i totally support the right of others to have their opinion.

Right now it is still legal to climb the rock - so some will make a choice to do that. Others will not agree with that decision.... but it's still legally OK while the climb is open to the public. Even if it's not morally OK by your standards.

This thread while not about religion..... is almost bordering on that area.

Lets all try and keep the discussion civil please.

[MrLandy]

No it is not, it is just someones opinion.

Yes it is. 'I'm not racist, but...' doesn't cut it.

[pop058]

...it's also political and should be deleted for that reason also.

Nope, no political either.


Yes it is. 'I'm not racist, but...' doesn't cut it.


Beside you, I don't recall anyone saying that.

[MrLandy]

MRLandy, I'm not sure specifically where you see a racist comment - please feel free to report the specific post as none of the Moderation team would support racism.

However, opinions are a different thing, this a very divisive topic, and opinions seem to polarise at opposite ends. There are definitely opinions here that I do not agree with, however i totally support the right of others to have their opinion.

Right now it is still legal to climb the rock - so some will make a choice to do that. Others will not agree with that decision.... but it's still legally OK while the climb is open to the public. Even if it's not Morally OK by your standards.

This thread while not about religion..... is almost bordering on that area.

Lets all try and keep the discussion civil please.

Bytemrk, This thread is absolutely about religion. Uluru is the equivalent of a cathedral or a mosque. It is highly disrespectful towards Anangu people. It's also blatantly political. Climbing Uluru is the most blatant expression of contemporary colonialism possible.

[Tombie]

Such blatant disrespect towards another cultures beliefs is racist.



Disrespecting a belief is not racist.

Racism is the belief a Race is inferior based on some characteristic.

This topic is about opinion (which you are also free to present in a civil manner).

Racism is still prolific in this world, and plenty of races are equally as racist towards others.

[bee utey]

Just for the record, there are two theories about the rock's formation, one based on facts, one not. Why should the non factual version get more respect?

https://www.ayersrockresort.com.au/uluru-and-kata-tjuta/natural-environment/geology

[Bytemrk]

It's not about religion.. or politics.. or racism...

It's about people having different views on an emotive. divisive subject...

People do have the right to make the choice...even if you or I don't agree with the choice.

The Anangu people are part of the board of management that controls the park.

Yes they ask people not to climb it.... But the climb is still open - they have not closed it , so they still give people a choice.

Personally I chose to walk around it, visit the valleys and caves , see the rock paintings and learn some of their Tjukurpa stories,but not all visitors will. They know that as well as I do.

[MrLandy]

This is illustrative of clear disrespect for Anangu religious beliefs. Anangu people want the climb closed. National Parks have power of veto. With respect, I suggest you look a bit further into it.

So if I started a thread about whether we should trample all over a mosque, would that be a problem?

[Tombie]

So if I started a thread about whether we should trample all over a mosque, would that be a problem?



That would be sure to blow up into an explosive argument..

[Blknight.aus]

I've never read a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull

Climing Uluru is one of the most sacrilegious, disrespectful things you can do on the planet.



If you'd like I'm pretty sure I can come up with some weapons grade disrespectful acts to broaden your horizons for comparative examples and reasons.


Well weeds, if it's not deleted, I'm out. No room for racism in my world.

My post is nowhere near as offensive as the majority of those above.

whats that expression, something about racists living in small closed worlds?

Now I'm not a racist and not for any reason of philanthropy, I'm better than you, honor or any of that crap its a far simpler reason. I'm just too lazy but I can't help but notice that so far you're about the only one whose bringing religion or racism to this thread and you're slinging what I'd consider to be anti religious semantics pretty liberally.

IF you think that walking over a naturally evolved geographic formation is in some way sacrilegious then you're welcome to go eye for eye, when I go walk over it again then you, on behalf of the people for whom you claim I am disrespecting are welcome to walk over the pinnacle object of my religion and culture.

till then if discussion of opinion is something you're willing to label as racism and make claims that its enough to make you bail out as theres no room for it in your world then do the Mods a favor and save them the effort

to paraphras an old war movie scene as the luey is handed the revolver and shown the door to the office.
"for the good of the forum old chap"

Y'all have a fantastic evening and thanks for the entertainment.

[MrLandy]

This vicious gleeful trampling of another cultures religious beliefs is revolting. I'm out.

[justinc]

Wow. We got to page 6 and had a huge variety of opinions and 1 dummy spit... 😮
Me personally i would respect the wishes of the traditional owners for a host of reasons.
A walking tour with some education and insight i would be happy to do.
Respect is the key word here. Whether you personally agree or not surely won't affect your life forever more if you don't climb it?
I like the suggestion of a flight over the area incl Katja Juta . Much better views too.

Be nice to one another 😊

Jc

[123rover50]

I was out at Ayers Rock in 67 or 68. It rained.
No other bugger there at all . Black or White.
Parked the Landy under the outcrop for a Camp.
Climbed it then. Wont climb it again.

Keith

[Homestar]

This vicious gleeful trampling of another cultures religious beliefs is revolting. I'm out.

Probably a good thing - you seem to be the only one that can't discuss this in an adult, grown up manner.

Would I climb it? No, but while it is legal to do so, I don't see why others can't to be honest.

[JoeFriend]

Probably a good thing - you seem to be the only one that can't discuss this in an adult, grown up manner.

Would I climb it? No, but while it is legal to do so, I don't see why others can't to be honest.
I stated it at the start and I will state it again. As someone who is part Aboriginal, and I am pretty sure I am the only one who has commented so far who can actually say that - he is right.

It is racist, simple as that. If a whole race of people have a set of beliefs and you choose to willingly trample on it, quite literally in this case - then really you are being racist. Badging it as "well I am being civil and trying to discuss this like an adult" and jumping down someones throat who has pointed this out won't change it.

If you say something about someone of Jewish heritage it is racist, even if they don't actually practice Judaism.

If someone of Aboriginal heritage is offended, then it's racist, it may not be meant as such so you could say it's at the very least disrespectful, or insensitive.

Someone sitting there and saying it isn't racist and to calm down, don't be offended while saying something that offends a race of people doesn't help the situation either.

I am big enough to realise that there are people out there who don't care and will climb it anyway - am I ok with that, no, not in the slightest. I also realise that no matter what I say, people will sit here and tell me not to be offended etc - but until you are Aboriginal, sit down, shut up and don't pretend like you know how the people feel and tell me not to be offended.

[Pickles2]

Ularu is on the eastern boundary of the Pitjandjara tribe. Almost all of the rock has religious significence to the people. There are areas women must not go, where men must not go, and where uninitiated boys must not go. Are visitors allowed to go to the vestry, in your church, where the vestments are kept?
G'Day Bob.
OF COURSE they are. And,like I said, anyone is allowed to walk around the Sanctuary where the Blessed Sacraments are kept,...as long as there is respect.
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

Anangu I believe
YES!!...That's the one,....I knew someone would know.
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

I've never read a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull

Climing Uluru is one of the most sacrilegious, disrespectful things you can do on the planet.

You all know it's wrong and the deliberate flouting of this makes me sick.

Get over your arrogant colonial selfishness.

If you think my response is strong, it's nothing compared to how the Anangu people feel, every time someone knowingly disrespects such a significant sacred site, by climbing Uluru.

Moderators, this entire thread should be deleted.
You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are, but simply because we do not agree with you, we do not, "call you names" or speak of you in derogatory terms. You ought to learn from that.
As far as the thoughts of the traditional owners are concerned,....YOU ARE WRONG.
The facts are, and you can google it, because you obviously wouldn't believe what I say,..50% want it closed,...the other 50% want it closed, BUT made more safe for climbing, and then they want to charge for climbing,....with which I have said, I've no issues with.
Anyway, Aussie is not for anyone, it's for EVERYONE,....like I said there's "Sacred Sites" everywhere,...doesn't mean we're not allowed to go there.
Most members on this site are respectful, decent people,...simply because you do not agree, does not mean they are the people who fit the description you so immaturely describe.
Pickles.
NB: I've just noticed in later posts by you, that you say you are "out", so I do not expect a response.

[incisor]

from the outset i have been of the opinion that this was a religious discussion

the moderators disagreed so the thread has continued

i continue to believe it is religious because it is a discussion based on belief systems.

there are always going to be strong opinions on a subject like this, even the current owners cannot agree.

threads like this are why we don't allow religious discussion on this site any longer as the quality of public debate has declined to the point that it always descends into personalities and name calling.

if people continue to play the man instead of the subject the thread, i will over ride the moderators wishes and the thread will be closed.

thank you...

[austastar]

Hi,
An observation.
The climb or not debate was absent when we camped there in 1976.
The only retail outlet at Ayers Rock in 1976 sold "I climbed Ayers Rock" T shirts and there was no dissenting opinion that we detected.
The only people we saw in 3 days were of European origin.
There were no entry fees.
The Fertility Cave was only notated on a map.
We saw no signs or notices prohibiting any entry or activity.
We were in total awe of the country, geology, and of a people who could have ever lived and thrived in an environment that for us was totally unsurvivable.


A question or two.
What has changed?
Presumably the beliefs have not, is it the industrial scale tourism that has started this squabble?
What would be the reaction/consequences of either side of this debate if all (commercial and individual) tourism was removed?

An opinion.
No I won't climb it again, in fact having seen the commercial acreage from Google Earth I have no desire to ever return.

Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using AULRO mobile app

[DiscoMick]

funny how no-one was compaining about it and it was still heavily encouraged when all the proceeds was dontated back to the local indig community after it was first handed back to the original owners....

hang about....

The aboriginals were nomadic...

anyone want to put a pin in a timeline as to when the complaints restarted?

I understood the locals made it clear they didn't want it climbed at the time of the original agreement but were overruled and the best concession they could get was agreement for signs to be erected asking people not to climb. Is that right?

More than 40,000 years of indigenous settlement has to be respected by us recent arrivals.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376

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[JoeFriend]

I understood the locals made it clear they didn't want it climbed at the time of the original agreement but were overruled and the best concession they could get was agreement for signs to be erected asking people not to climb. Is that right?

More than 40,000 years of indigenous settlement has to be respected by us recent arrivals.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376

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Yep, that's correct - I stated as such on the first page.

I would completely understand if this thread was deleted - I doubt there will be agreement on this ever so I don't see the point in keeping the thread alive. My 2 cents on it Inc.

Pickles -
I think you will find the fact that the population who wants it closed and made more safe are from a group who realise they are facing a large rock sized battle getting people to not climb. Every death on Uluru is felt personally by them, it isn't that they want you to climb it, it's just a realisation and acceptance that people will climb and this helps their conscience.

It's a sacred site beyond what an everyday church is - it was a rite of passage, and something even the tribesman did rarely so likening it to a sacred part of a church isn't the same thing.

Australia is for everyone, but what ever happened to the Australia that embraced peoples cultural differences and made them our own? Most of our national identity we have borrowed from other nation's and their customs and put our own spin on it and as a nation we are better for it.

Aboriginals are our nation's first people, and yet the little things we can do easily we don't do (like not climb Uluru, recognise them in our constitution etc), which just further divides us. An inclusive nation and recognition and respect of all peoples is what our nation was built on, and what makes it one of the best places in the world to live.


If you understand that it is sacred to the people who have lived there for generation after generation and don't want you to climb it, and you still do - that is something that you have to live with. If you constantly disregard other people's beliefs and trample over them, then little wonder they are inclusive and don't integrate/contribute to society like they would if you gave them the respect they deserve - you don't then get to have the right to complain about this. This is not just limited to climbing Uluru, it's everything in life.

It's what Australia was built on, and something that we need to continue. If you can do your small little part by not climbing Uluru, and instead taking one of the cultural tours and learning about what Uluru means to the people then it could go a long way to helping. Little changes in behaviour create greater and more meaningful change.

Joe

[XDrive]

Racism

A word often thrown around without too much thought as to the real meaning. Often used by one group, to close an argument or end any further discussion.

I have taken some extracts from the NSW Government Department of Education 'Racism. No Way.' document.

It may also be argued that in closing or limiting access to a particular area by one group and therefore exercising their power over another group. This action could also be construed as Racist behavior.

For those who wish to read further:-

An understanding of the nature of racism is essential in order to recognise and counter it successfully. Racism is a global phenomenon which is influenced by a range of historical, social, political and economic factors. It takes different forms in different contexts and as a result has been defined in many different ways. In Australia, the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission (1998) defines it as:
"Racism is an ideology that gives expression to myths about other racial and ethnic groups, that devalues and renders inferior those groups, that reflects and is perpetuated by deeply rooted historical, social, cultural and power inequalities in society."
Racism is the result of a complex interplay of individual attitudes, social values and institutional practices. It is expressed in the actions of individuals and institutions and is promoted in the ideology of popular culture. It changes its form in response to social change.
Racism has its roots in the belief that some people are superior because they belong to a particular race, ethnic or national group. The concept of race is a social construct, not a scientific one. (For a discussion of the meaning of the word 'race', refer to the glossary).
Racist attitudes and beliefs are misconceptions about people based on perceived racial lines and are often founded on the fear of difference, including differences in customs, values, religion, physical appearance and ways of living and viewing the world. This includes negative attitudes towards the use of different languages, 'foreign' accents or the use of non-standard variations of a dominant community language. [1]
Racist attitudes may be manifested in a number of ways including common expressions of racial prejudice towards and stereotyped assumptions about other cultures as well as more extreme forms of prejudice such as xenophobia. These beliefs are reinforced by prevailing social attitudes towards people who are seen as different and are often a reflection of the values which underpin social relations and institutional practices.
These attitudes and beliefs find expression in racist behaviours, both in the actions of individuals and in the policies and entrenched practices of institutions. Where these behaviours involve unequal power relationships between individuals or groups from different cultural backgrounds, racist actions on the part of members of the dominant culture have the effect of marginalising those from minority groups.

Race
The term 'race' is an artificial construct used to classify people on the basis of supposed physical and cultural similarities deriving from their common descent. The Runnymede Trust (1993) provides a useful discussion of the word 'race':
"The words 'race' and 'racial' are much used in modern society - in everyday conversation, as also in legislation and in the media. Phrases such as 'race relations', 'race row', 'racial equality', 'racial group', 'racial harmony' and so on are in frequent use. However, they are not at all satisfactory. They are remnants of a belief formed in previous centuries, now discredited, that human beings can be hierarchically categorised into distinct 'races' or 'racial groups' on the basis of physical appearance, and that each so-called race or group has distinctive cultural, personal and intellectual capabilities."
"Modern science has shown that the biological category of race is meaningless when applied to the human species. Biologically, the human species shares a common gene pool, and there is much more genetic variation within each so-called racial group than between them (p 57)."
Despite having no biological basis, the idea of distinct races still exists as a social construct. In many societies it is a basis of social action, a foundation of government policy and often a justification for distinctive treatment of one group by another. Divisions in society continue to be made along perceived racial lines and associated disadvantages exist for those groups who are assumed to be physically or culturally different from the dominant cultural group. Although there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of human races, human beings tend to assume racial categories and to take them seriously. They do so for social, not biological, reasons.

New South Wales Government Department of Education 2105 'Racism. No Way'

XDrive

[Pickles2]

Joe, well written post my friend, but I disagree with you.
Australia is for EVERYONE, and there should be NO boundaries for anyone, no matter who they are.
I'm just an ordinary Aussie, well some would say I'm not, 'cause my family emigrated from the UK in 1958, but I'm a naturalised Aussie now, & proud to be one.
I don't have any discriminatory views about any race or creed, as long as someone is a good person, they're ok by me, and I will respect, but not necessarily agree with, other people's opinions,...I simply ask the same in return. (In other words, everybody has a right to their opinion, without being derogatised for it)
Pickles.

[JoeFriend]

Joe, well written post my friend, but I disagree with you.
Australia is for EVERYONE, and there should be NO boundaries for anyone, no matter who they are.
I'm just an ordinary Aussie, well some would say I'm not, 'cause my family emigrated from the UK in 1958, but I'm a naturalised Aussie now, & proud to be one.
I don't have any discriminatory views about any race or creed, as long as someone is a good person, they're ok by me, and I will respect, but not necessarily agree with, other people's opinions,...I simply ask the same in return. (In other words, everybody has a right to their opinion, without being derogatised for it)
Pickles.

Pickles, not sure if you remember - but we had a lengthy discussion which did get rather heated at a pub in the high country a while back so I know your thoughts on a lot of things - I believe we both walked away unshaken in our own beliefs but respectful of the fact that someone else had a different point of view.

This is merely an extension of that, and me being respectful of your beliefs would preclude me from doing anything you would believe is sacrilegious, and I would expect the same in return.

This is what this is, stepping into a church and poking around and having a look is the same as walking around Uluru.

I would liken climbing Uluru at the same level as climbing up onto the alter to get a better view of the paintings on the roof of the Sistine Chapel.

You ask for respect to have your own thoughts and opinions on what you can and can't/should and shouldn't do but give no thought to anothers rights and wishes to do the same.

I don't agree with people who have made this personal, which I haven't - I am merely trying to convey to people the significance of this and what it's all about, and to try to show why it shouldn't be climbed. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect that even if I don't respect what your actual opinion is on this matter.

[vnx205]

.... ....

I would completely understand if this thread was deleted - I doubt there will be agreement on this ever so I don't see the point in keeping the thread alive. My 2 cents on it Inc.
... ....

Joe

I don't accept the argument that this thread should be deleted just because there will always be some disagreement and because some people are obviously not going to change their mind.

I often see opinions with which I disagree posted here. Even if I am unlikely to be persuaded to a different point of view, that does not mean that I am not interested in understanding why someone holds an opinion different from mine.

There has been a bit of talk here about understanding the views, culture or beliefs of others. I think that notion applies to giving me the opportunity to understand people who disagree with me. I may find their reasoning helpful or I might find it ludicrous, but as long as I resist the urge to attack them personally for holding that view, I believe it has been a beneficial exercise.

Even if I think some people are idiots, I believe there is some value in my knowing why they are so idiotic. :)

I am not going to read back over all this thread right now to see if the following comment applies to this thread. I have noticed that sometimes in the past the call for a thread to be deleted has come from someone who disagrees, but has not taken the trouble to explain in detail why they hold their view or to address the arguments presented by those who hold the opposing view.

While ever the posts remain civil and respectful of alternative views and while ever people take the trouble to explain the reasons for their attitude, I think threads like this serve a purpose.

[JoeFriend]

I don't accept the argument that this thread should be deleted just because there will always be some disagreement and because some people are obviously not going to change their mind.

I often see opinions with which I disagree posted here. Even if I am unlikely to be persuaded to a different point of view, that does not mean that I am not interested in understanding why someone holds an opinion different from mine.

There has been a bit of talk here about understanding the views, culture or beliefs of others. I think that notion applies to giving me the opportunity to understand people who disagree with me. I may find their reasoning helpful or I might find it ludicrous, but as long as I resist the urge to attack then personally for holding that view, I believe it has been a beneficial exercise.

Even if I think some people are idiots, I believe there is some value in my knowing why they are so idiotic. :)

I am not going to read back over all this thread right now to see if the following comment applies to this thread. I have noticed that sometimes in the past the call for a thread to be deleted has come from someone who disagrees, but has not taken the trouble to explain in detail why they hold their view or to address the arguments presented by those who hold the opposing view.

While ever the post remain civil and respectful of alternative views and while ever people take the trouble to explain the reasons for their attitude, I think threads like this serve a purpose.

Point taken - this has now gone to 8 pages long, with the usual slanging matches going on that is to be expected.

I have made multiple valid points, all of which are only countered with the notion that it isn't illegal so keep climbing, it is my right as an Australian.

Not one person has made a valid argument as to why they should be allowed to climb it - just because it has always been that way doesn't make it right, I am pretty sure that's why they got rid of slavery, different levels and very extreme but it's the same principle.

I am merely saying delete it because it is a conversation where the chance if changing anothers mind is highly marginal, and the debate goes around in circles until someone invokes the Hitler rule.

If you care to go back, you will see I have given my thoughts, reasons and logic behind each argument I have given. None have really been addressed.

And I love your point about thinking people are idiots but wanting to know why - but when it feels like they are belittling the the culture of a people you are part of, just because they feel that it isn't their beliefs is a bit much to stomach.

[DiscoMick]

I don't see any reason to delete the thread. Are we afraid of listening to other peoples' opinions in case they make us reconsider our own opinions? That's just being closed minded and inflexible. Its good to consider what others say and try to improve our own thinking - that's improving our minds.
For myself, we chose not to climb, we had an interesting tour around the rock and enjoyed our visit to the cultural centre. I think we learnt more than if we had climbed.
I think those who refuse to try to understand the culture and worldview of the people there are themselves the losers because they go away having missed the chance to improve their understanding. They have missed out because of their own bad choices.
My opinion ...

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[sheerluck]

Like Allan, I also believe the debate is worth keeping alive, because whilst the two opinions at either end of the spectrum are unlikely to change, there will still be those who genuinely didn't know, and are happy to be educated.

Many people would struggle to equate a natural geological feature with the concept of being sacred, but know and understand that building or monument type X, erected as a place of worship in the name of deity Y, could be sacred. They would avoid eating a bacon sandwich in the middle of a synagogue, wearing their best bondage gear to a mosque, or taking a dump in the font at the local church (none of which there are laws against), but hadn't seen the harm in walking on a bit of rock.
That said, there are those who would perform those actions, deliberately to insult or shock......

Every bit of education is worthwhile in my view. I've learned stuff in this thread that I didn't know.

[donh54]

Personally, I would love to climb Uluru, BUT..... only under certain circumstances, e.g.

First, I would want to sit with some of the traditional people of the area, and gain as much understanding as possible of the significance it has to them;

Secondly, I would like to have the services of a guide, not only for the safety aspect, but to point out some of the features that have significance along the way, and to ensure I did not wander into any areas I was not entitled to enter;

Thirdly, and possibly most important, I would be willing to undergo any ceremonies/rituals they required, in order to do the climb with their blessing, and the blessing of whatever spirits inhabit the place.

[Homestar]

I would completely understand if this thread was deleted - I doubt there will be agreement on this ever so I don't see the point in keeping the thread alive. My 2 cents on it Inc.
Joe

If we deleted every thread where there was disagreement, there wouldn't be a whole left here to read...:D

I can't see why we can't have a good discussion about this while maintaining a calm and level head about it.:)

[Pickles2]

Pickles, not sure if you remember - but we had a lengthy discussion which did get rather heated at a pub in the high country a while back so I know your thoughts on a lot of things - I believe we both walked away unshaken in our own beliefs but respectful of the fact that someone else had a different point of view.

This is merely an extension of that, and me being respectful of your beliefs would preclude me from doing anything you would believe is sacrilegious, and I would expect the same in return.

This is what this is, stepping into a church and poking around and having a look is the same as walking around Uluru.

I would liken climbing Uluru at the same level as climbing up onto the alter to get a better view of the paintings on the roof of the Sistine Chapel.

You ask for respect to have your own thoughts and opinions on what you can and can't/should and shouldn't do but give no thought to anothers rights and wishes to do the same.

I don't agree with people who have made this personal, which I haven't - I am merely trying to convey to people the significance of this and what it's all about, and to try to show why it shouldn't be climbed. You are entitled to your opinion, I respect that even if I don't respect what your actual opinion is on this matter.
I can't remember such a discussion, & I don't get to the High Country very much, the only time I can remember was when Karen & I met a couple of other Defender drivers outside a Pub in Omeo, but that conversation was definitely not heated, so if you can enlighten me, that would be good.
Walking on Ayres Rock is NOTHING like climbing on an alter,...I can't remember anyone "climbing on an alter", but plenty of people have climbed on all sorts of places. CLIMBING on an alter is showing no respect, it would be like disfiguring/walking on Aboriginal Rock Art, something that I would never do. And I think I've mentioned, I did have respect & remembered where I was when I climbed the Rock, it made me think, and added to everything.
"Stepping around an alter"?... When the sacrements are in place that place is sacred, very sacred indeed, but we do not stop people from going there, or accessing any part of our church, whether they "believe" or not. We have plenty of "Sacred Sites". In many of our Churches, especially the older ones, there are graves, very sacred, but we don't stop people walking through them either.
Of course I have respect for your thoughts, but I don't have to agree with them, nor you with mine, which you obviously don't,....and I definitely have no problems with that.
But just so you're sure, I DEFINITELY do respect your views, and in terms of our "meeting" which I can't remember!!,... I'm glad that we both walked away respectful of each others views, because that would always be my aim.
Pickles.

[JoeFriend]

I can't remember such a discussion, & I don't get to the High Country very much, the only time I can remember was when Karen & I met a couple of other Defender drivers outside a Pub in Omeo, but that conversation was definitely not heated, so if you can enlighten me, that would be good.
Walking on Ayres Rock is NOTHING like climbing on an alter,...I can't remember anyone "climbing on an alter", but plenty of people have climbed on all sorts of places. CLIMBING on an alter is showing no respect, it would be like disfiguring/walking on Aboriginal Rock Art, something that I would never do.
"Stepping around an alter"?... When the sacrements are in place that place is sacred, very sacred indeed, but we do not stop people from going there, or accessing any part of our church, whether they "believe" or not.
Of course I have respect for your thoughts, but I don't have to agree with them, nor you with mine, which you obviously don't,....and I definitely have no problems with that.
But just so you're sure, I DEFINITELY do respect your views.
Pickles.

That was us, forgot the name of the town.

I see it as the same as standing on an alter, and I am sure that the tribe would too. It is a sacred place that is climbed only as a rite of passage - climbing it when it's not your place is the same.

Happy for you to have your opinion, and your views on whether or not you should climb it - just as long as you know that what you do is seen as disrespectful in the eyes of those who see it as culturally significant. This alone should be enough to deter people to climb it, why you would want to offend someone else's culture knowingly is beyond me. I wouldn't do it to yours so why do it to what makes up my culture.

[Nick S]

Why don't we have a plebiscite? That should sort it out

[bob10]

G'Day Bob.
OF COURSE they are. And,like I said, anyone is allowed to walk around the Sanctuary where the Blessed Sacraments are kept,...as long as there is respect.
Pickles.

That's very inclusive of your Church. When I was a young Alter Boy, parishioners encroached on the priests territory at their own risk. It was fun knocking back the dregs of the Alter wine, though.

[Pickles2]

That was us, forgot the name of the town.

I see it as the same as standing on an alter, and I am sure that the tribe would too. It is a sacred place that is climbed only as a rite of passage - climbing it when it's not your place is the same.

Happy for you to have your opinion, and your views on whether or not you should climb it - just as long as you know that what you do is seen as disrespectful in the eyes of those who see it as culturally significant. This alone should be enough to deter people to climb it, why you would want to offend someone else's culture knowingly is beyond me. I wouldn't do it to yours so why do it to what makes up my culture.
Climbing on an alter is simply an unrealistic comparison. That WOULD be showing disrespect,..it would be like me jumping/climbing on an Indigenous made structure like a Bora Ring, or someone doing something disrespectful on the Rock, like dancing nude or shooting a rifle, or drinking on it etc.
An alter is a man made structure created for a particular purpose, & of course, again, available for ALL to use, Indigenous or whatever, should they chose to. Last I read, the rock, which is a natural phenomenon, has been there for at least 600 million years, indigenous people for around that area for 20,000 at the most, so it was there for a long time before that. It belongs to ALL Australians.
Aaahhh, so I was right,.Omeo. Of course I remember you guys, as I remember it, one of your Defenders had a starter problem. I think we even had a conversation with you guys the morning after. Wifey remembers, but neither of us remembers anything even slightly heated.
Pickles.

[JoeFriend]

Climbing on an alter is simply an unrealistic comparison. That WOULD be showing disrespect,..it would be like me jumping/climbing on an Indigenous made structure like a Bora Ring, or someone doing something disrespectful on the Rock, like dancing nude or shooting a rifle, or drinking on it etc.
An alter is a man made structure created for a particular purpose, & of course, again, available for ALL to use, Indigenous or whatever, should they chose to. Last I read, the rock, which is a natural phenomenon, has been there for at least 600 million years, indigenous people for around that area for 20,000 at the most, so it was there for a long time before that. It belongs to ALL Australians.
Aaahhh, so I was right,.Omeo. Of course I remember you guys, as I remember it, one of your Defenders had a starter problem. I think we even had a conversation with you guys the morning after. Wifey remembers, but neither of us remembers anything even slightly heated.
Pickles.
Gonna have to agree to disagree then on that one, but being part Aboriginal that is the way I see it the comparison and I see as the same thing.

Yeah he did, and no it wasn't a heated argument, didn't say it was - I was just merely stating that I know you and know your thoughts on things and you ability to have a sensible argument and see other points of view, which is why I am wondering if the Aboriginals see it at disrespectful then perhaps it is. I don't see that it is less important just because it isn't man made - I put it on the same level. As far as I am concerned an alter is just a tree, it's the significance that you give it is what makes it important. So while you see it as a rock, we see it as something different.

[bob10]

YES!!...That's the one,....I knew someone would know.
Pickles.

It really isn't that simple. The Aboriginal people of Central and Western NT called themselves Anangu, which literally means human beings. However, the tribal group around Uluru are predominately Pitjandjara, with some Yankunytjatjara people. To complicate matters more, the tribe is divided into clan groups. The Mala [ hare-wallaby clan] group are a totemic group whose clan territory is on the northern side of the rock, while the clan on the southern face are the Kunia [ carpet snake] people.

The clan groups eg the Mala, are all members of an extended family , each of whom is related to the other by either birth or marriage. The males, Grandfathers, Fathers , Sons with their children belong to the same totemic group, ie, the Mala. Their wives, born in some other clan territory, will, of course, belong to a different totem.

The inhabitants of a particular clan territory normally gain a livelihood within its boundaries, and seldom leave it except on special occasions, such as the initiation of the youths, which is largely a tribal matter. or the performance of some important totemic ceremony involving the participation of many people. People think the tribal people were simple savages, but nothing could be further from the truth. The Australian Aboriginal has, and in the case of those removed from their tribal land, had one of the most complex social structures on Earth. It allowed them to survive, and prosper for at least 40,000 years. The European came, and fractured that structure. Unknowingly, admittedly. Is it any wonder after 40,000 years, Aboriginal tribal groups find it difficult to live in a white mans World?

To me, white people claiming uluru as their own, to climb as they wish, in the 200 or so years we have been here,compared to the 40,000 of the Aboriginal, is a bit rich.

[AK83]

.....

It is racist, simple as that. If a whole race of people have a set of beliefs and you choose to willingly trample on it, quite literally in this case - then really you are being racist .......

So following on and using this argument, the current efforts against a particularly nasty Islamic group(y know which one .. starts with I, four letters, ends with S) .. they also have set of beliefs and yet the current worldwide consensus is that this religious group should be eliminated!

I guess your assessment is that this concerted effort of 'elimination' is also racism?

[bob10]

So following on and using this argument, the current efforts against a particularly nasty Islamic group(y know which one .. starts with I, four letters, ends with S) .. they also have set of beliefs and yet the current worldwide consensus is that this religious group should be eliminated!

I guess your assessment is that this concerted effort of 'elimination' is also racism?

I think this is moving the conversation where it should not go. Let's keep it simple, about Uluru and it's people., please.

[JoeFriend]

Isis isn't a whole race, so taking that argument is a massive stretch mate, you could go tobthe Olympics with that leap, and congrats on making the new Hitler rule, cause that's essentially what you just did.

[Pickles2]

Gonna have to agree to disagree then on that one, but being part Aboriginal that is the way I see it the comparison and I see as the same thing.

Yeah he did, and no it wasn't a heated argument, didn't say it was - I was just merely stating that I know you and know your thoughts on things and you ability to have a sensible argument and see other points of view, which is why I am wondering if the Aboriginals see it at disrespectful then perhaps it is. I don't see that it is less important just because it isn't man made - I put it on the same level. As far as I am concerned an alter is just a tree, it's the significance that you give it is what makes it important. So while you see it as a rock, we see it as something different.
Joe,..."Heated"?....Check your post 73, that was the word you used, although Wifey & I cannot remember it being so.
I guess We will, as you say, have to "agree to disagree", but at least We've shown that We, at least, are capable of having a discussion, where we disagree, but are still able to treat each other & our differing opinions, with respect.
Regards, Pickles.

[rangieman]

I have enjoyed this thread with some good and some not so good personal opinion`s.
As in most of this forum some get very opinionated and thats fine just dont play the man;)
Me im not going say yey or ney simply what i ever i say will result in a name calling of something:p
All ill say is we are planing a trip in that direction in 2018 :angel:

[bob10]

I have enjoyed this thread with some good and some not so good personal opinion`s.
As in most of this forum some get very opinionated and thats fine just dont play the man;)
Me im not going say yey or ney simply what i ever i say will result in a name calling of something:p
All ill say is we are planing a trip in that direction in 2018 :angel:

Every one has an opinion, they are like arseholes. Some stink more than others, but all are respected. And that , Ladies and Gentlemen, is why this is such a great place to live. So far.

[bob10]

Joe,..."Heated"?....Check your post 73, that was the word you used, although Wifey & I cannot remember it being so.
I guess We will, as you say, have to "agree to disagree", but at least We've shown that We, at least, are capable of having a discussion, where we disagree, but are still able to treat each other & our differing opinions, with respect.
Regards, Pickles.

AMEN to that, Brother.

[JoeFriend]

Joe,..."Heated"?....Check your post 73, that was the word you used, although Wifey & I cannot remember it being so.
I guess We will, as you say, have to "agree to disagree", but at least We've shown that We, at least, are capable of having a discussion, where we disagree, but are still able to treat each other & our differing opinions, with respect.
Regards, Pickles.

I stand corrected. Passionate perhaps?

[Bytemrk]

The 2010- 2020 Management Plan makes interesting reading for those that are interesting in some of the facts around the way the park is managed rather than peoples opinions.

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/f7d3c167-8bd1-470a-a502-ba222067e1ac/files/management-plan.pdf

In particular Clause 6.3.3C on page 92 outlines the future conditions that will see the climb permanently closed.

MrLandy, if you happen to revisit, I could not see a reference to Parks having any Veto over the traditional owners ( I may have missed it.) the make up of the board of management appears to have significant indigenous representation.

Of the 12 members of the Board of Management:

Eight Aboriginal members are nominated by the Anangu traditional owners
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for tourism and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for the environment and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the Northern Territory Government and approved by Anangu
One member is the Director of National Parks.


https://www.environment.gov.au/topics/national-parks/uluru-kata-tjuta-national-park/management-and-conservation/park-management


It's good to see we seem to have got away from playing the man and at least some can agree to disagree......Thank you :)

[bob10]

Wanyu Ulurunya tatintja wiyangku wantima - please don't climb Uluru.
That's a really important sacred thing that you are climbing... You shouldn't climb. It's not the real thing about this place. And maybe that makes you a bit sad. But anyway that's what we have to say. We are obliged by Tjukurpa to say. And all the tourists will brighten up and say, 'Oh I see. This is the right way. This is the thing that's right. This is the proper way: no climbing.'
Kunmanara, traditional owner
EDIT;
{ Tjukurpa - creation times. The creators decreed the laws that govern all aspects of daily and sacred life]

[squizzyhunter]

What a great topic! Really no sarcasm intended. Right or wrong I love to hear different perspectives to my own (well when I'm in the mood for it anyways, maybe not on a Sunday morning). I have been of the opinion that I would love to climb it but would refrain out of respect (though I did 25 yrs ago oblivious to the politics). For me I think we should be free to do as we please as long as it isn't negatively impacting anyone else. As this seems to be impacting a whole race (not just the locals but other mobs see it as an indication of Europeans general level of respect for them and their beliefs) I would definitely avoid doing so. As I stated I believe that we defiantly shouldn't and most people I know that have a different perspective in it don't want to climb it just because they don't care and will do as they please but believe that the aboriginal perspective has been fluid and therefore will not take the current stance as gospel.
Anyways great topic

Soap box time.....The only thing that annoyed me was people being offended by something that does not relate to them personally. I'm my humble opinion you have to directly impacted to be "offended" otherwise you are just practicing social one upmanship by trying to take the moral high ground.
Rant over

Thank you guys for furthering my education on the topic.

[squizzyhunter]

The 2010- 2020 Management Plan makes interesting reading for those that are interesting in some of the facts around the way the park is managed rather than peoples opinions.

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/f7d3c167-8bd1-470a-a502-ba222067e1ac/files/management-plan.pdf

In particular Clause 6.3.3C on page 92 outlines the future conditions that will see the climb permanently closed.

MrLandy, if you happen to revisit, I could not see a reference to Parks having any Veto over the traditional owners ( I may have missed it.) the make up of the board of management appears to have significant indigenous representation.

Of the 12 members of the Board of Management:

Eight Aboriginal members are nominated by the Anangu traditional owners
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for tourism and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for the environment and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the Northern Territory Government and approved by Anangu
One member is the Director of National Parks.


https://www.environment.gov.au/topics/national-parks/uluru-kata-tjuta-national-park/management-and-conservation/park-management


It's good to see we seem to have got away from playing the man and at least some can agree to disagree......Thank you :)

Brilliant

[Mick_Marsh]

or taking a dump in the font at the local church (none of which there are laws against)
I think you might find there is a law against this one. With the amount of times I've seen people up before a magistrate for urinating in public, I can easily imagine there would be a law for dumping in public.

[Tombie]

I think you might find there is a law against this one. With the amount of times I've seen people up before a magistrate for urinating in public, I can easily imagine there would be a law for dumping in public.



Public indecency would be one

[Chops]

That was us, forgot the name of the town.

I see it as the same as standing on an alter, and I am sure that the tribe would too. It is a sacred place that is climbed only as a rite of passage - climbing it when it's not your place is the same.

Happy for you to have your opinion, and your views on whether or not you should climb it - just as long as you know that what you do is seen as disrespectful in the eyes of those who see it as culturally significant. This alone should be enough to deter people to climb it, why you would want to offend someone else's culture knowingly is beyond me. I wouldn't do it to yours so why do it to what makes up my culture.
I find this an interesting statement Joe. It makes me wonder why, when we were there in the late 70's we were literally hassled and encouraged, by the local Aborigine's, to climb. We actually spent quite a bit of time with them, especially whilst they were making various tools etc out of wood by the fire. The only thing we were told "not" to do, was enter if I recall correctly, two places, specifically, the cave where an Elder was, and another cave somewhere, (unfortunately I cant remember all the details).


So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

[bob10]

So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

Quite simple, really. Up until the 1940's all aborigines would have been fully initiated men, and had a full knowledge of the myths, many of which belonged to the secret life of fully initiated men. In the years after the 1940's, the effects of civilization and the restrictive practices of the Christian Missionaries caused rapid changes to take place in the Pitjandjara tribe. This change produced fringe dwellers, not white, but not fully initiated black men either. We would call them entrepreneur's. Making a quick buck out of the gullible tourists. If you read Mountford's book, you will come to realise that almost every part of Uluru has some cultural or religious significance to the fully initiated, and only the fully initiated have the full knowledge .

It is to your credit you wish to learn more about the culture, if more had that attitude, perhaps there would be little need for this discussion. You must understand though, that the white man can only ever scratch the surface, it is not the duty of a professional or priestly class to preserve the myths and their rites ,but of a number of groups of initiated men, each of whom is responsible for memorizing the traditions and songs of their clan territories.

I guess the last word should come from Mountford.

" It is a memorable experience to have lived and travelled with these and other aborigines and have been able to see , if only for a short time the functioning of one of the most primitive cultures of Mankind: a culture with tools that simple that the gaining of a livelihood in that desert environment is a remarkable achievement. A culture with a code of laws so well balanced that there is no need for organised warfare to maintain a social balance: and a culture where the people are at peace with each other and with the surroundings in which they live. "

[Narangga]

I haven't checked Bob but this could be the longest Walrus Club thread ever!

If I ask someone not to do something and they don't do it, being human, it makes me feel valued and respected.

So if anyone asks me not to do something, I endeavour to comply as I trust that it makes them feel the same was I do when I am in their situation.

[MrLandy]

The 2010- 2020 Management Plan makes interesting reading for those that are interesting in some of the facts around the way the park is managed rather than peoples opinions.

https://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/f7d3c167-8bd1-470a-a502-ba222067e1ac/files/management-plan.pdf

In particular Clause 6.3.3C on page 92 outlines the future conditions that will see the climb permanently closed.

MrLandy, if you happen to revisit, I could not see a reference to Parks having any Veto over the traditional owners ( I may have missed it.) the make up of the board of management appears to have significant indigenous representation.

Of the 12 members of the Board of Management:

Eight Aboriginal members are nominated by the Anangu traditional owners
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for tourism and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the federal minister responsible for the environment and approved by Anangu
One member is nominated by the Northern Territory Government and approved by Anangu
One member is the Director of National Parks.


https://www.environment.gov.au/topics/national-parks/uluru-kata-tjuta-national-park/management-and-conservation/park-management


It's good to see we seem to have got away from playing the man and at least some can agree to disagree......Thank you :)

It's actually very straight forward. "...the Anangu people, Uluru's traditional owners, have asked for decades that tourists not climb it".

"Following the Rock's handback, the traditional owners were obliged to lease the Park back to the Director of National Parks"

The handback was conditional. The management report is propaganda.

The financial pressure on a community living in poverty next door to a playground for the wealthy has been clearly illustrated again and again if you care to look beyond the propaganda. Here is one recent example:
Why is it still possible to climb Ulu<u>r</u>u? (http://theconversation.com/why-is-it-still-possible-to-climb-ulu-u-r-u-u-58729)

What makes me angry is the blatant disregard being shown to Anangu people by AULRO members, despite the very clear fact that Uluru is a sacred 'religious' icon for Anangu. It is obvious when you arrive at Uluru how powerful the place is. To deliberately disrespect this in full knowledge that the Anangu people don't want you to climb is disrespectful at best, and racist IMO.

The CONTINUING politics of colonial dispossession in Australia (political) have resulted in a false handback. If Anangu people were truly in charge it's clear the climb would close.

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

[Pickles2]

I stand corrected. Passionate perhaps?
Joe,....Definitely,..that would be me!!...This has been an excellent discussion, & I believe We have shown to mods that we can have separate & differeing respectful opinions without making it personal & resorting to name calling, which some people may think gives them an edge,....in my opinion it simply destroys their credibility. Right or wrong, we should all be able to have our opinion.
Regards, Pickles.

[JoeFriend]

It's actually very straight forward. "...the Anangu people, Uluru's traditional owners, have asked for decades that tourists not climb it".

"Following the Rock's handback, the traditional owners were obliged to lease the Park back to the Director of National Parks"

The handback was conditional. The management report is propaganda.

The financial pressure on a community living in poverty next door to a playground for the wealthy has been clearly illustrated again and again if you care to look beyond the propaganda. Here is one recent example:
Why is it still possible to climb Ulu<u>r</u>u? (http://theconversation.com/why-is-it-still-possible-to-climb-ulu-u-r-u-u-58729)

What makes me angry is the blatant disregard being shown to Anangu people by AULRO members, despite the very clear fact that Uluru is a sacred 'religious' icon for Anangu. It is obvious when you arrive at Uluru how powerful the place is. To deliberately disrespect this in full knowledge that the Anangu people don't want you to climb is disrespectful at best, and racist IMO.

The CONTINUING politics of colonial dispossession in Australia (political) have resulted in a false handback. If Anangu people were truly in charge it's clear the climb would close.

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

This has been my point all along.

Unless you are of Aboriginal heritage, you can't say whether it is disrespectful or not. I am from both sides of the camp, white, wealthy and privileged along with identifying myself of Aboriginal heritage.

Climbing is one thing, it's the blatant disregard for a cultures beliefs and wishes that really irks me and fires me up, and knowingly doing things that are offensive is what makes it racist IMO.

Thank you for understanding, and I am glad that some on this thread have learnt things, and perhaps it will lead to you wanting to learn more about Aboriginal culture and how they lived both on the land and with the land for 40,000 years in peace and harmony.

It's never too late to do the little things you can to make the traditional owners of the land feel respected.

Is it beer o'clock yet?

[bob10]

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down. Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

We shouldn't allow emotion to get in the way of common sense. To me, it would be offensive and racist NOT to discuss the issue. That would take us back to the bad old days. The fact that this thread has survived so long, is a credit to the members of AULRO. Yes, some of the usual suspects tried to derail it, but wiser heads prevailed. In our democratic society, all members have the right to be heard, as long as there is no abuse. So, members, you should be proud that we have discussed this contensious subject, with a minimum of angst. My connection to the subject? My full blood aboriginal great Grand Mother.

[justinc]

I was brought up in a reasonably well 'placed' family and went to a good school and never wanted for anything however it was my parents attitude to the whole of society that was the biggest positive influence i had.

My father was born in East Africa and had understandably a huge connection to that part of the world although not of African descent (my grandparents were british and lived for quite sometime there and were heavily humanitarian and 'christian missionary ' like which as we know sometimes don't go hand in hand....😞 although the past is the past...) upon retiring from his carreer as an ophthalmologist and surgeon returned a few times to teach at the university/ teaching hospital in Uganda and even had fellow surgeons and specialists donate equipment to be taken over there etc etc to try and get a base of local specialists to carry out relatively common and life changing procedures, we here take for ' granted'.
Around the age of 14 i was taken along on a Trachoma and Eye health survey of the Western Deserts of WA with my dad and this was led by Fred Hollows. As you can imagine in the 80's my eyes were crudely opened to all the different and confronting lives of the western desert peoples when brought in from the deserts as a proud and peaceful nomadic people to the beginning of the end of their civilisation 'for their betterment '. 😠.
Almost immediately i understood why my father did what he did and now, all these years on , still affected by those 10 or so days so long ago.

I'm ashamed to say that i haven't achieved or done anything like my father has on a people level, however i am immensely thankful for the experience at that age which had changed my whole life for the better I'm sure.

We are only visitors here, and while i agree we all have a free will to choose our actions there is precious little thought given by the majority regarding the feelings and consequences our behaviour and words have on others.

My grandmothers favourite expression that sticks with me is one which apparently had a root in an African saying,

"When you point the finger at someone do not forget there are 3 more fingers pointing back at you"

Jc

[bob10]

This is as good a place as any to post " the genetic history of Aboriginal Australia".They may have been here much longer than anyone knew. In fact, there is some truth in the claim of being the oldest continuous race of humans on Earth.

https://youtu.be/_kbRxSzDE4k

[MrLandy]

This has been my point all along.

Unless you are of Aboriginal heritage, you can't say whether it is disrespectful or not. I am from both sides of the camp, white, wealthy and privileged along with identifying myself of Aboriginal heritage.

Climbing is one thing, it's the blatant disregard for a cultures beliefs and wishes that really irks me and fires me up, and knowingly doing things that are offensive is what makes it racist IMO.

Thank you for understanding, and I am glad that some on this thread have learnt things, and perhaps it will lead to you wanting to learn more about Aboriginal culture and how they lived both on the land and with the land for 40,000 years in peace and harmony.

It's never too late to do the little things you can to make the traditional owners of the land feel respected.

Is it beer o'clock yet?

Cheers Joe, Yuwa Palya, definately beer o'clock.

[bob10]

I haven't checked Bob but this could be the longest Walrus Club thread ever!

If I ask someone not to do something and they don't do it, being human, it makes me feel valued and respected.

So if anyone asks me not to do something, I endeavour to comply as I trust that it makes them feel the same was I do when I am in their situation.

It's not the length of a thread, it's the quality of the content.And the members control the content. All those who wanted to have had their say, and most have said it well. I have a new found respect for AULRO.

[XDrive]

There are a few simple ways to look at this

Education versus Legislation

Is it not better to explain to people why you wish them to do something in a particular way rather than simply close something off with no explanation.

There is also a very simply philosophy which I try to follow:-

'When you know better, do better'

Regards

XDrive

[vnx205]

I was under the impression that there has been an enormous amount of effort put into education about this issue.

Not only that, but there seems to be a concerted effort to provide alternative activities so that visitors won't feel short changed when they visit the area.

I agree with your suggestion about how things should be done. I think that is exactly the approach that is being taken. The education is happening.

[EastFreo]

Really interesting reading this thread. To my mind people are probably more aligned on this than they realise. On one side there is a very important point about the site being sacred. On the other there is a valid reason to want to see and share what is special about the place.

I will admit to being in the camp that would love to climb it. For me it is similar to going and seeing some other awe inspiring religious (or for that matter historical and natural wonder) sites around the world.

I am not particularly religious at all but I have felt humbled and always been respectful in various cathedrals, religious sites and other places I have visited. I would certainly be the same at Uluru. I would also much prefer to be taken up by some Traditonal Owners and learn what they feel comfortable in sharing.

I would hope people would not take my desire to visit and climb it as being racist. Instead I would hope this place could represent a place that could very powerfully educate non-aboriginal people about aboriginal customs and beliefs. It should also be done in such a way that is respectful.

To my mind there would be a number of other places around the country where similar could occur and maybe bring us all a bit closer together.

I appreciate someone me may find this still political incorrect. But not that long ago visiting a western cathedral or a mosque or monastery etc from the Middle East to the Far East by someone of a different faith would also have been deemed almost heretical.

Apologies for the long post!

[pop058]

It's actually very straight forward. "...the Anangu people, Uluru's traditional owners, have asked for decades that tourists not climb it".

"Following the Rock's handback, the traditional owners were obliged to lease the Park back to the Director of National Parks"

The handback was conditional. The management report is propaganda.

The financial pressure on a community living in poverty next door to a playground for the wealthy has been clearly illustrated again and again if you care to look beyond the propaganda. Here is one recent example:
Why is it still possible to climb Ulu<u>r</u>u? (http://theconversation.com/why-is-it-still-possible-to-climb-ulu-u-r-u-u-58729)

What makes me angry is the blatant disregard being shown to Anangu people by AULRO members, despite the very clear fact that Uluru is a sacred 'religious' icon for Anangu. It is obvious when you arrive at Uluru how powerful the place is. To deliberately disrespect this in full knowledge that the Anangu people don't want you to climb is disrespectful at best, and racist IMO.

The CONTINUING politics of colonial dispossession in Australia (political) have resulted in a false handback. If Anangu people were truly in charge it's clear the climb would close.

This thread is both political and religious and should be shut down.Much of what is being said is highly offensive. Not knowing it is offensive is not an excuse. It's not about a difference of opinion. Knowing it is offensive and continuing is racist.

Bob I suggest you start a thread instead about the beauty and power of walking around Uluru. About the extraordinary privilege of being able to visit this iconic place for Anangu people and the wisdom to be gained by going on an Anangu walking tour around their country.

To what benefit ??.

I for one have learnt a quite abit from this thread and I believe others have as well. If we all act like adults and keep thing civil without dummy spits and threats, then the discussion can only be a good thing and may even help educate all us dam colonialist :D

Thanks for the great thread Bob :)

[Blknight.aus]

I understood the locals made it clear they didn't want it climbed at the time of the original agreement but were overruled and the best concession they could get was agreement for signs to be erected asking people not to climb. Is that right?

More than 40,000 years of indigenous settlement has to be respected by us recent arrivals.
World-first genome study reveals rich history of Aboriginal Australians - Science News - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376)

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

Correct, however the way it unfolded wasnt quite so simple.

(sorry for the delay and thread dig back guys)

when it was intially done the responsability was put back to the reps of the "original owners" (the quotes are not to represent all of them just a select few bare with me) as it laid out the elders wanted the place as no climbing put the signs up. The white fellas didnt want to do it that would be bad for tourism/economy. Political fighting ensued and a trial was agreed at.

Since the "original owners" were kicking up a stink and the white fellas didnt want to care about it a trial "hand back" was arranged and the "original owners" were given responsability for the area, permitted to do as they pleased with the relevant area and the income it could generate

That did not go well. The signs didnt go up, the place degraded and the "original owners" spent the money on the kind of things that youd expect of welfare mooching ipswichians. No-one was really complaining as the white fella wasnt loosing money on upkeep, the "original owners" were getting money to waste and the tourists could still climb.

Trial period over and the actual "original owners" the proper elders were not happy so it returned to white fella management. Part of the compromise that followed was the signs were not of the "do not climb" variety but the "please do not climb" not actually making it illegal and leaving the choice to the individual.

The reason this unfolded was simple, 20% of aboriginals give the rest of them a bad name. In this case the few elders who should have had their wishes respected were tarnish with the same brush as the louts who just wanted to drink themselves stupid.

This is, as best I recall it, as it was told to me by one of the older (not sure if he was an elder proper) indigenous rangers of the time when it was climbed by an adventure training ex with the ADF, 2 groups and I was there doing the safety vehicle radio coms. (I got to climb as part of the second smaller group and stayed in the park area maintaining a coms link while the ex was active)

Now my personal opinion on it.

1. yes it should be open for anyone to climb it its a beautiful experience
2. yes it should be managed, limited numbers, paid for with a cultural awareness/training progam to be completed before being permitted to climb
3. for one group of people to claim they own it is ridiculous, I don't care how long the aboriginals have been around they were not around when the thing was formed. if it was something they had built or constructed or were living in/on different story.
4. Claiming religious reasons gets you no leeway with me, I'm an atheist it falls into the same kind of category as a muslim telling me I cant eat bacon because that what their belief system requires.

[squizzyhunter]

Correct, however the way it unfolded wasnt quite so simple.

(sorry for the delay and thread dig back guys)

when it was intially done the responsability was put back to the reps of the "original owners" (the quotes are not to represent all of them just a select few bare with me) as it laid out the elders wanted the place as no climbing put the signs up. The white fellas didnt want to do it that would be bad for tourism/economy. Political fighting ensued and a trial was agreed at.

Since the "original owners" were kicking up a stink and the white fellas didnt want to care about it a trial "hand back" was arranged and the "original owners" were given responsability for the area, permitted to do as they pleased with the relevant area and the income it could generate

That did not go well. The signs didnt go up, the place degraded and the "original owners" spent the money on the kind of things that youd expect of welfare mooching ipswichians. No-one was really complaining as the white fella wasnt loosing money on upkeep, the "original owners" were getting money to waste and the tourists could still climb.

Trial period over and the actual "original owners" the proper elders were not happy so it returned to white fella management. Part of the compromise that followed was the signs were not of the "do not climb" variety but the "please do not climb" not actually making it illegal and leaving the choice to the individual.

The reason this unfolded was simple, 20% of aboriginals give the rest of them a bad name. In this case the few elders who should have had their wishes respected were tarnish with the same brush as the louts who just wanted to drink themselves stupid.

This is, as best I recall it, as it was told to me by one of the older (not sure if he was an elder proper) indigenous rangers of the time when it was climbed by an adventure training ex with the ADF, 2 groups and I was there doing the safety vehicle radio coms. (I got to climb as part of the second smaller group and stayed in the park area maintaining a coms link while the ex was active)

Now my personal opinion on it.

1. yes it should be open for anyone to climb it its a beautiful experience
2. yes it should be managed, limited numbers, paid for with a cultural awareness/training progam to be completed before being permitted to climb
3. for one group of people to claim they own it is ridiculous, I don't care how long the aboriginals have been around they were not around when the thing was formed. if it was something they had built or constructed or were living in/on different story.
4. Claiming religious reasons gets you no leeway with me, I'm an atheist it falls into the same kind of category as a muslim telling me I cant eat bacon because that what their belief system requires.

Good info cheers Dave!
Not loaded questions but just genuinely want to understand, was the old ranger part of the guys that were keen to share the top of the rock? As a hypothetical if he had said he didn't want you fellas going up would that change things. Not being a dick just wanted to see as I don't know much of the local politics that way as I may take certain rules in everyday life with a grain of salt but things sometimes change for me if someone has a personal reason not to do something Eg growing up I was happy to record tapes ect but on talking to a friend who made music for a living it changed my stance (to be honest only for Australian music and movies but happy to download a Hollywood blockbuster). Not that that is even remotely similar but the first analogy I could think of. Or is it more the point that in reality none of us can lay claims to natural occurring phenomena (which I totally agree). However I find this a grey area for me in regards to to traditional owners (I've only had a few mates who were from indigenous backgrounds as I grew up down south so I only have a crude idea of the spiritual connection to country) as cognitively I am with you 100% that nobody can claim natural phenomena but if a mate of mine had said it's important to him that I don't go to an area I probably wouldn't no matter of his background, though I probably would rev him up about it for a while and if I could see that it was quite important to then would accept it out of respect not to **** on his parade. I suppose that is a form of racism on my behalf that I would take an indigenous mates wishes of land access more seriously than joe blogsie down the road but for me it's understanding that I don't really understand his spiritual identity with country and would take a wider birth so to speak. A further form of racism for me would be that I would take my mates wishes even more serious if he was initiated but hey nobody's perfect eh. Again not trying to be a dick just honestly wanted to know your take on it

[bob10]

1. yes it should be open for anyone to climb it its a beautiful experience
2. yes it should be managed, limited numbers, paid for with a cultural awareness/training progam to be completed before being permitted to climb
3. for one group of people to claim they own it is ridiculous, I don't care how long the aboriginals have been around they were not around when the thing was formed. if it was something they had built or constructed or were living in/on different story.
4. Claiming religious reasons gets you no leeway with me, I'm an atheist it falls into the same kind of category as a muslim telling me I cant eat bacon because that what their belief system requires.

Sorry, but your explanation is just a tad simplistic. As explained before, the influence of Missionaries created a underclass of fringe dwellers, uninitiated adults ,often seen on the banks of the Todd river. It was this group which was empowered by some smart white men, and indeed set up to fail.Which they did, not surprisingly. No one has said they own the rock, that's a white mans concept. However, to the old people, it is much more than just a rock.I respect your beliefs, as an atheist. Is it too hard to respect the genuine Aboriginal beliefs? Their belief system has very little to do with religion, everything to do with their culture. Atheists have culture.

I like your no. 2 dot point, and would like to expand it further. My idea would be to use modern technology, in the form of drones, to overfly the rock,filming , then build a modern cinema, with all the bells & whistles to make it a magical cinematic experience. Some sensitivity to aboriginal sacred sites would be required, but with the best commentary, much more of Uluru would be explained, and seen , it would be better than climbing it. And here is the clincher. It should be minimal cost, perhaps a gold coin donation.

Millions have been spent on the Aboriginal " problem ", much wasted. Spend some of it on education of non indigenous Australia . Education of the aboriginal children, and education of non indigenous Australians is the key , I think. And to me, and some old Aboriginal men I have the privilege of knowing, turning Uluru into a business, white man way, just doesn't sit right.

Pie in the sky stuff, I know. Tell me I'm dreamin', and I would agree.

[DiscoMick]

We went to Stonehenge, which is more than 3000 years old and definitely a religious site. People were certainly not allowed to climb all over it. In fact, there were paths and rope barriers and you were not allowed off the paths, with rangers supervising peoples' movements. Was this a problem? Not at all. Should we respect an ancient Celtic religious site? Definitely. Should we show the same respect to an Aboriginal religious site at Uluru? Definitely. My opinion.


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[Pickles2]

We went to Stonehenge, which is more than 3000 years old and definitely a religious site. People were certainly not allowed to climb all over it. In fact, there were paths and rope barriers and you were not allowed off the paths, with rangers supervising peoples' movements. Was this a problem? Not at all. Should we respect an ancient Celtic religious site? Definitely. Should we show the same respect to an Aboriginal religious site at Uluru? Definitely. My opinion.


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Cannot be compared, but I had the feeling that some would, because I thought of it myself, being an "Old Pom", and being familiar with Stonehenge, and having visited both.
There is NO comparison, with respect to "the issues" of non climbing of Ayres Rock, because the issues are totally different, whether you agree with the climbing of Ayres Rock, or not.
Ain't going to the differences, ya can google ya self., BUT, they are totally different,....don't bother to dispute unless you know the facts,...in which case I will be happy to discuss.
Pickles.

[bob10]

Cannot be compared, but I had the feeling that some would, because I thought of it myself, being an "Old Pom", and being familiar with Stonehenge, and having visited both.
There is NO comparison, with respect to "the issues" of non climbing of Ayres Rock, because the issues are totally different, whether you agree with the climbing of Ayres Rock, or not.
Ain't going to the differences, ya can google ya self., BUT, they are totally different,....don't bother to dispute unless you know the facts,...in which case I will be happy to discuss.
Pickles.

Enlighten us, or the more uncharitable may say you are just full of wind. Not me, of course, I await with bated breath.

[DiscoMick]

Cannot be compared, but I had the feeling that some would, because I thought of it myself, being an "Old Pom", and being familiar with Stonehenge, and having visited both.
There is NO comparison, with respect to "the issues" of non climbing of Ayres Rock, because the issues are totally different, whether you agree with the climbing of Ayres Rock, or not.
Ain't going to the differences, ya can google ya self., BUT, they are totally different,....don't bother to dispute unless you know the facts,...in which case I will be happy to discuss.
Pickles.

I know some things, but I'd be happy to be enlightened.

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[Blknight.aus]

Sorry, but your explanation is just a tad simplistic. As explained before, the influence of Missionaries created a underclass of fringe dwellers, uninitiated adults ,often seen on the banks of the Todd river. It was this group which was empowered by some smart white men, and indeed set up to fail.Which they did, not surprisingly. No one has said they own the rock, that's a white mans concept. However, to the old people, it is much more than just a rock.I respect your beliefs, as an atheist. Is it too hard to respect the genuine Aboriginal beliefs? Their belief system has very little to do with religion, everything to do with their culture. Atheists have culture.

I like your no. 2 dot point, and would like to expand it further. My idea would be to use modern technology, in the form of drones, to overfly the rock,filming , then build a modern cinema, with all the bells & whistles to make it a magical cinematic experience. Some sensitivity to aboriginal sacred sites would be required, but with the best commentary, much more of Uluru would be explained, and seen , it would be better than climbing it. And here is the clincher. It should be minimal cost, perhaps a gold coin donation.

Millions have been spent on the Aboriginal " problem ", much wasted. Spend some of it on education of non indigenous Australia . Education of the aboriginal children, and education of non indigenous Australians is the key , I think. And to me, and some old Aboriginal men I have the privilege of knowing, turning Uluru into a business, white man way, just doesn't sit right.

Pie in the sky stuff, I know. Tell me I'm dreamin', and I would agree.

Its a tad simplistic for a couple of reasons.

1. The memory is from about 20 years ago,
2. I was copping hell for sharing my gear and food with a "local"
3. I dont recall him being real happy with having to tell the story or the way the guys were refering to him when they were trying to get me away from talking with him so I could get drunk with them and
4. I was ****ed off at them trying to get me to drink when I was there as safety driver and comms and the whole 2 week trip was dry for me especially when we were in a "dry"area.

Unfortunately while I understand why you might want to play the cultural card I advise you dont.

My cultural beliefs and expectations I am constantly required to repress in order to be accommodating to and tolerant of "other" cultures and beliefs. I'll put it this way, if every "other" culture was mandated that they had to do the same as I am expected to then this thread would never have started. I'll go one further.

If I was able to jam my personal culture, ethos and belief system onto others in the same way as I have to have go through "cultural awareness, diversity and equity" training and have any of it respected there would be a significant lack of the kind of crap that leads to threads like these and the ill will, feeling and all the other negatives that come from them.

Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely believe that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

[bob10]

Its a tad simplistic for a couple of reasons.

1. The memory is from about 20 years ago,


Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

First of all, it must be said that just because a man has age, doesn't mean he is an elder.The media often portray people as an elder of the tribe, but that is disingenuous. The Government of the tribe is in the hands of the well-informed old men, not the physically active youth. It is the old men who maintain the ancient laws, and decide the correct time for the performance of the rituals on which the social and philosophical life of the tribe depend. The full knowledge of the mythical past and the rites associated with it belongs only to these tribal elders. I doubt you would have met a tribal elder at Uluru, 20 years ago. Perhaps a fringe dweller with a conscience.

It's a pity you didn't get to Docker River. A little community between Uluru and the WA border. A dry community, it is one of the success stories of the region. Governed under tribal law, and law of the land, overseen by a NT Government Official and a small staff. A good mate of mine was that official for a couple of years. Doesn't mean they don't have problems, but grog isn't one of them.[ or wasn't back then] While he was there , the elders decided a ritual spearing was required to teach a young buck a lesson. Something to do with a woman. After the spearing he was required to go bush, with some minders, to relearn the clan rules.

My mate had to report it to the Police, of course, but the nearest police were in Alice Springs. The community is in a sense self regulating. There are no layabouts, or fringe dwellers, because there is no grog. They have a successful school system, with one of the highest attendance rates in Aboriginal NT. [ I'm speaking about 20 odd years ago] My mate and his staff are people who put themselves out, to help others, and do make a difference. They don't talk about it, they do it. It's not a perfect society, but show me one that is. A bit about the school;


Submitted by captovate on Tue, 2012-07-31 08:48
Nyangatjatjara College is an Anangu College in Central Australia. We provide secondary education across three remote communities and primary education in one (Docker River). All of our students are Anangu and almost all speak Pitjantjatjara as their first language. We are the only secondary education provider in the Northern Territory south of Alice Springs.

We belong to the Association of Independent Schools of the Northern Territory (AISNT). Our aim is to have every child across our communities attending school and learning every day. We are passionate about working with Anangu to provide a great education for the young people in our region.

Nyangatjatjara College was established by Nyangatjatjara Aboriginal Corporation and opened on 21 July 1997. In the first five years of its life, the college grew from one building to multiple temporary buildings at four campuses based in the communities it serves. The Yulara campus is architecturally-designed site. Its bright colours and staggered rooflines meld the buildings with the environment and reflect the Central Australian landscape.

They are the only Secondary education provider in the NT south of Alice Springs.
It can be done, but it is hard work, not for the faint hearted.
Welcome to Nyangatjatjara College | Nyangatjatjara College (http://www.nyangatjatjaracollege.org.au/)

[ramblingboy42]

I note with interest that those who want to climb call it "Ayers Rock".....something of ignorance there isn't there?

Those against climbing are calling it by its correct name...Uluru.

It's been Uluru for 49,850 years and some pommy explorer called it Ayers Rock 150years ago.

Let's call it by it's correct name from now on.

[Mick_Marsh]

I note with interest that those who want to climb call it "Ayers Rock".....something of ignorance there isn't there?

Those against climbing are calling it by its correct name...Uluru.

It's been Uluru for 49,850 years and some pommy explorer called it Ayers Rock 150years ago.

Let's call it by it's correct name from now on.

Any more incorrect generalisations you'd like to make?
I call it Uluru and am pro climbing.


Should tourists climb Uluru? If they want. I've climbed it.

[squizzyhunter]

My cultural beliefs and expectations I am constantly required to repress in order to be accommodating to and tolerant of "other" cultures and beliefs. I'll put it this way, if every "other" culture was mandated that they had to do the same as I am expected to then this thread would never have started. I'll go one further.

If I was able to jam my personal culture, ethos and belief system onto others in the same way as I have to have go through "cultural awareness, diversity and equity" training and have any of it respected there would be a significant lack of the kind of crap that leads to threads like these and the ill will, feeling and all the other negatives that come from them.

Problem is, dimwits like me who think and genuinely that just maybe if they throw enough out there and do enough for enough other people that just maybe the world will become a better place are few and far between. Personal greed, selfishness and covering your ass at the expense of others has taken its place in society.

Point taken and I agree with that stance totally mate.

[justinc]

First of all, it must be said that just because a man has age, doesn't mean he is an elder.The media often portray people as an elder of the tribe, but that is disingenuous. The Government of the tribe is in the hands of the well-informed old men, not the physically active youth. It is the old men who maintain the ancient laws, and decide the correct time for the performance of the rituals on which the social and philosophical life of the tribe depend. The full knowledge of the mythical past and the rites associated with it belongs only to these tribal elders. I doubt you would have met a tribal elder at Uluru, 20 years ago. Perhaps a fringe dweller with a conscience.

It's a pity you didn't get to Docker River. A little community between Uluru and the WA border. A dry community, it is one of the success stories of the region. Governed under tribal law, and law of the land, overseen by a NT Government Official and a small staff. A good mate of mine was that official for a couple of years. Doesn't mean they don't have problems, but grog isn't one of them.[ or wasn't back then] While he was there , the elders decided a ritual spearing was required to teach a young buck a lesson. Something to do with a woman. After the spearing he was required to go bush, with some minders, to relearn the clan rules.

My mate had to report it to the Police, of course, but the nearest police were in Alice Springs. The community is in a sense self regulating. There are no layabouts, or fringe dwellers, because there is no grog. They have a successful school system, with one of the highest attendance rates in Aboriginal NT. [ I'm speaking about 20 odd years ago] My mate and his staff are people who put themselves out, to help others, and do make a difference. They don't talk about it, they do it. It's not a perfect society, but show me one that is. A bit about the school;


Submitted by captovate on Tue, 2012-07-31 08:48
Nyangatjatjara College is an Anangu College in Central Australia. We provide secondary education across three remote communities and primary education in one (Docker River). All of our students are Anangu and almost all speak Pitjantjatjara as their first language. We are the only secondary education provider in the Northern Territory south of Alice Springs.

We belong to the Association of Independent Schools of the Northern Territory (AISNT). Our aim is to have every child across our communities attending school and learning every day. We are passionate about working with Anangu to provide a great education for the young people in our region.

Nyangatjatjara College was established by Nyangatjatjara Aboriginal Corporation and opened on 21 July 1997. In the first five years of its life, the college grew from one building to multiple temporary buildings at four campuses based in the communities it serves. The Yulara campus is architecturally-designed site. Its bright colours and staggered rooflines meld the buildings with the environment and reflect the Central Australian landscape.

They are the only Secondary education provider in the NT south of Alice Springs.
It can be done, but it is hard work, not for the faint hearted.
Welcome to Nyangatjatjara College | Nyangatjatjara College (http://www.nyangatjatjaracollege.org.au/)

Bob I'm glad to hear the succes stories from there. I was traveling that area in '88 and it didn't seem that much of a successful environment however I didn't get to spend a lot of time there. Beautiful country though, as always awe inspiring.

Jc

[ramblingboy42]

Dave re post #123 , I think the world is a better place with you in it.

[bob10]

Dave re post #123 , I think the world is a better place with you in it.

Me too, Dave.

[barney]

Apart from it being a sacred site for male tribal ceremonies, there is also the safety issue with people having heart attacks or getting lost or falling, who then have to be rescued. We don't let people climb to the top of St Marys Cathedral, for example.

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But all through europe, people are welcome to climb the spires of some of the oldest cathedrals, Ayers Eock doesn't belong to amyone, the aboriginals will tell you that. They belong to the land and weather you have been in this country for one generation, 5 generations or 100 generations, we are all part of the country and should be allowed to do what we want as long as it is legal.

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[bob10]

Bob I'm glad to hear the succes stories from there. I was traveling that area in '88 and it didn't seem that much of a successful environment however I didn't get to spend a lot of time there. Beautiful country though, as always awe inspiring.

Jc

Success stories don't sell newspapers. When my mate was at Docker river, he had to drive to all the remote communities , to see how they were travelling. He says the more remote they were, the better the people were. He and I spent some years in Darwin, and his attitude towards the Aboriginal was tempered by what went on there. Not good. Working at Docker River was not easy, it took a complete turnaround of his mind set. At the end he said he had to have a break, but he said it was some of the best years of his life. He made some life long friends , and was shown places white men just aren't normally shown.

In the QWeekend, Saturday, is a story from Aurukun. The line in says;
" Wik elders believe instilling the children of Aurukun with dreams and reconnecting them with country is the answer to breaking a decades long cycle of disadvantage, and abuse. " The article goes on. " Almost 4 generations of binge drinking, criminal behaviour and joblessness has led to a disconnect from culture for many in Arukun. Every one still speaks the lingua franca Wik Mungkan, but that's it. Traditional owner Dawn Archer says ' Our young people need to know our songlines, our dances, and how to take care of our country. It's good to get them out of the class room, away from the dramas of Arukun, to show them the footsteps of our ancestors. ' "

Just two pin ****** in an ocean of despair. But what did Vincent say? I'm getting soft in my old age. I tear up , especially when one of our military are flown home in a coffin, and every time I hear this song.

https://youtu.be/6_ndC07C2qw?list=RD6_ndC07C2qw

[bob10]

But all through europe, people are welcome to climb the spires of some of the oldest cathedrals, Ayers Eock doesn't belong to amyone, the aboriginals will tell you that. They belong to the land and weather you have been in this country for one generation, 5 generations or 100 generations, we are all part of the country and should be allowed to do what we want as long as it is legal.

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Thanks Barney. My experience, little as it is, is that Aboriginal people in country don't believe they own the land, but believe they are custodians of the land. Their laws prohibit men from certain sites at Uluru, as well as women, and uninitiated boys. If their law doesn't allow this, the very least we can do is learn the law. And respect one small part of it. [ edit. makes more sense]

[Pickles2]

Thanks Barney. My experience, little as it is, is that Aboriginal people in country don't believe they own the land, but believe they are custodians of the land. Their laws prohibit men from certain sites at Uluru, as well as women, and uninitiated boys. If their law doesn't allow this, the very least we can do is learn the law. And obey it. Well, IMHO, "We" don't have to OBEY Aboriginal "traditions" or anything, anymore than Aboriginal people have to "obey" the many traditions of western civilization. And that is part of the problem,..."Them" & "us".....It should be "WE".
No-one "OWNS" this great great land we live inn, the land we call Aussie. No-one "owns" Aussie, anymore than anyone "owns " Uluru.
Like has been mentioned, Scientists have said Ayres Rock or Uluru, whatever you want to call it, has existed for at least 600 million years, the Aboriginal people came across it 20,000 years ago, a microcosm in terms of evolution, which certainly does not confirm ownership or anything else to ANYONE, nor does it mean that European "Colonists" have any "rights"., but, nor does it mean that they do not have any.
Uluru, doesn't "BELONG" to anyone on this planet. It is a wonderful creation, & should be shared by everyone, no matter what their beliefs.
Climbing Uluru may have different meanings for many, negative or posiive, from whatever "side" (I say there shouldn't be a "side") you are on, the main aspect being, that we appreciate it for the great part of AUSTRALIA that it is,.....equally, for EVERYONE.
Does anyone have the current position from a recognized spokesman from the Anangu people as to what their OFFICIAL position is?
Pickles.

[bob10]

Well, IMHO, "We" don't have to OBEY Aboriginal "traditions" or anything, anymore than Aboriginal people have to "obey" the many traditions of western civilization. And that is part of the problem,..."Them" & "us".....It should be "WE".
No-one "OWNS" this great great land we live inn, the land we call Aussie. No-one "owns" Aussie, anymore than anyone "owns " Uluru.
Like has been mentioned, Scientists have said Ayres Rock or Uluru, whatever you want to call it, has existed for at least 600 million years, the Aboriginal people came across it 20,000 years ago, a microcosm in terms of evolution, which certainly does not confirm ownership or anything else to ANYONE, nor does it mean that European "Colonists" have any "rights"., but, nor does it mean that they do not have any.
Uluru, doesn't "BELONG" to anyone on this planet. It is a wonderful creation, & should be shared by everyone, no matter what their beliefs.
Climbing Uluru may have different meanings for many, negative or posiive, from whatever "side" (I say there shouldn't be a "side") you are on, the main aspect being, that we appreciate it for the great part of AUSTRALIA that it is,.....equally, for EVERYONE.
Does anyone have the current position from a recognized spokesman from the Anangu people as to what their OFFICIAL position is?
Pickles.

Sorry, Pickles, but you just don't get it.

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks Barney. My experience, little as it is, is that Aboriginal people in country don't believe they own the land, but believe they are custodians of the land. Their laws prohibit men from certain sites at Uluru, as well as women, and uninitiated boys. If their law doesn't allow this, the very least we can do is learn the law. And respect one small part of it. [ edit. makes more sense]

with that in place, how do you feel about the fact that foreigners can come here and have our society bend to their will because they want their laws and beliefs respected over the ones that are in place of the country they've come to.

With that out there, how do you think the aboriginal societies would have gone if Australia had been settled by say the dutch or the muslims or the sheit? (yeah probably spelt that last one wrong)




Sorry, Pickles, but you just don't get it.

I dont know I reckon with


It is a wonderful creation, & should be shared by everyone, no matter what their beliefs.
Climbing Uluru may have different meanings for many, negative or posiive, from whatever "side" (I say there shouldn't be a "side") you are on, the main aspect being, that we appreciate it for the great part of AUSTRALIA that it is,.....equally, for EVERYONE.


that little bit pretty much levels the playing field.. lets take it a step further.

If the aboriginals dont want to share then neither do us white fellas, so the aboriginals can hand back all the free housing, free medical, the welfare payments and handouts, in fact not only that they can pay it back and do so with interest as well as paying back all the money thats been expended keeping them in line when they've come to play in our society and made a hash of it.

[MrLandy]

" Although I respect Aboriginal cultural beliefs, they're not my cultural beliefs. Why is it offensive for me to climb?

Uluru is a national treasure and all tourists are welcomed by the Traditional Owners to share it. As the legal owners, they respectfully request that visitors no longer climb the rock. They do so because Uluru is a place of great spiritual importance and one which they are obliged to look after.

As Traditional Owner Kunmanara says: That's a really important sacred thing that you are climbing. You shouldn't climb. It's not the real thing about this place. The real thing is listening to everything. And maybe that makes you a bit sad. But anyway that's what we have to say. We are obliged by Tjukurrpa to say. And all the tourists will brighten up and say, Oh I see. This is the right way. This is the thing that's right. This is the proper way: no climbing."

https://www.reconciliation.org.au/news/q-and-a-climbing-uluru/

[DiscoMick]

with that in place, how do you feel about the fact that foreigners can come here and have our society bend to their will because they want their laws and beliefs respected over the ones that are in place of the country they've come to.

With that out there, how do you think the aboriginal societies would have gone if Australia had been settled by say the dutch or the muslims or the sheit? (yeah probably spelt that last one wrong)





I dont know I reckon with



that little bit pretty much levels the playing field.. lets take it a step further.

If the aboriginals dont want to share then neither do us white fellas, so the aboriginals can hand back all the free housing, free medical, the welfare payments and handouts, in fact not only that they can pay it back and do so with interest as well as paying back all the money thats been expended keeping them in line when they've come to play in our society and made a hash of it.

Can you give an actual example of our laws and customs bending to their practices and beliefs? I haven't noticed any - quite the opposite, actually, some of us seem determined to make recent arrivals feel very unwelcome - I've certainly noticed that.

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[Mick_Marsh]

with that in place, how do you feel about the fact that foreigners can come here and have our society bend to their will because they want their laws and beliefs respected over the ones that are in place of the country they've come to.

With that out there, how do you think the aboriginal societies would have gone if Australia had been settled by say the dutch or the muslims or the sheit? (yeah probably spelt that last one wrong)





I dont know I reckon with



that little bit pretty much levels the playing field.. lets take it a step further.

If the aboriginals dont want to share then neither do us white fellas, so the aboriginals can hand back all the free housing, free medical, the welfare payments and handouts, in fact not only that they can pay it back and do so with interest as well as paying back all the money thats been expended keeping them in line when they've come to play in our society and made a hash of it.

Can you give an actual example of our laws and customs bending to their practices and beliefs? I haven't noticed any - quite the opposite, actually, some of us seem determined to make recent arrivals feel very unwelcome - I've certainly noticed that.

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A question for CA I think.

[Blknight.aus]

Can you give an actual example of our laws and customs bending to their practices and beliefs? I haven't noticed any - quite the opposite, actually, some of us seem determined to make recent arrivals feel very unwelcome - I've certainly noticed that.

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I hope I've cut my original post out of that correctly and left the question you wanted me to answer in place.

Without wanting or intending to derail/hijack this thread

Sure can, heres my favorite 3 in answer a question with a question format.

whats the only exception to wearing of mandatory PPE in workplace environments requiring safety helmets and in some cases dust masks

for what reason is the full menu no longer available in some places I normally eat?

Why is it not legal to report negatively some peoples inability to work a full normal shift while meeting full productivity requirements when I would be mandated to do so for any other person?



to breach over into the immigration side of where this thread will wind up dancing with

yep, I've no problems with people wanting to come here, I have no problem with them wanting to have and share their beliefs/

I have problems when they try to tell me that I have to live my life by their belief system.

the really short, politically correct version of my feelings on all of this is

"you go do you over there, I'll go do me over here. I appreciate you inviting me to your world and when visiting under your invite I'll abide by your expectations and customs. You're just as welcome to come and visit my world under the same expectation. However If I have abilities or resources that you want to have access to then you are coming into my world to gain that access. If I give you that support then you forfeit your right to complain about the way other aspects of my world are not compliant with yours because you came to my world."

Before anyone makes the obvious comments.

yes, Im aware, stolen generation, yes the aboriginals were treated abhorently in the past, No, I personally do not agree with "the apology". Yes my personal view is essentially "Hang on, you want your cake and to eat it too. One or the other, you and your people either integrate into our society or you and your people stop mooching off of ours. Polarize and be done with it when you've made your decision come let us know and we'll abide by it, no half measure no compromise."

[MrLandy]

I have problems when they try to tell me that I have to live my life by their belief system.

What do you think white fellas have been telling Aboriginal people to do for the past 200 years?!

...by insisting on climbing Uluru, you are telling Aranda people to live by your belief system.

[Blknight.aus]

What do you think white fellas have been telling Aboriginal people to do for the past 200 years?!

...by insisting on climbing Uluru, you are telling Aranda people to live by your belief system.

Would that be the same Aranda people who want to claim in on the benefits offered by what my culture has to offer in terms of welfare?

I'll just quietly assume that you read the post that went in before I redid the last bit.

When the aboriginal people (and I mean every last one of em including those I want my benefits because my great auntie was 1/10 indigenous) get on one side of the fence or the other then I'll have some respect for them as a whole. Till then that humpin great lump o red rock in the middle of Australia is just that and no more, a lump of rock thats red and lets you take some very pretty pictures from.

IF they ALL decide they want nothing to do with our world and dont want the benefits they have to offer then I'll decide that their belief system has merit for respect.

If they decide they want in on our world with what it has to offer then they can come over completely, yes, nice to have a history and heritage but thats as far as it goes an no further. As a society you do not grow by looking and living in the past, you go in the direction you look.

[Milton477]

As a society you do not grow by looking and living in the past, you go in the direction you look.

The gem in the discussion. Would the world not be a better place if we all took this advice. You can't have it both ways. Thanks Blknight.

[MrLandy]

This thread is not about the past, it's about the present.

[Homestar]

This thread is not about the past, it's about the present.

Of course it isn't. Now you're just being silly. How do you have this conversation without taking the past into account? If the past didn't matter, then the thousands of years of tradition you are talking about stomping all over is a moot point by your very own wording.

This proves you're just trolling.

[MrLandy]

Those thousands of years of tradition are also here in the present. It's why we are having this ridiculous 'discussion'. It's about what you choose to do now.

...What, you think that because some whitefella comes along and says ''stuff you, I should be able to climb that rock if I want', that the thousands of years of tradition are confined to the past? Is that what you call progress?

[Blknight.aus]

nope progress is what I call all the benefits you have in this society

if you don't want people climbing your sacred rock hand back all the benefits you have accepted from this society and you might be taken a little more seriously, then have all your brethren do the same.


Answer me these,

Do you devoutly follow all of the traditions of "your people" or just the ones you like?

Do you take advantage of the traditions of our culture when it suits you?

Do you celebrate Christmas?

Easter?

Australia Day?

[Chops]

Those thousands of years of tradition are also here in the present. It's why we are having this ridiculous 'discussion'. It's about what you choose to do now.

...What, you think that because some whitefella comes along and says ''stuff you, I should be able to climb that rock if I want', that the thousands of years of tradition are confined to the past? Is that what you call progress?

I'm not sure I fully understand what exactly it is,, but when was the place used for the last initiations of the young boys, or when was the last one done?
So what, "tradition/culture based events are taking place there?

[grey_ghost]

I just wish that people could "live and let live".

Personally - I climbed the rock about 25 years ago. I would probably climb it again, but I'm not fit enough. I wouldn't climb it to upset people or dis-respect them, I would climb it for it's natural beauty.

If you don't want to climb it - then fair enough, don't.

I respect the Aboriginal people - and would never do anything to damage their art. I think that Uluru is used in a positive way - so the Aboriginal people can teach people about their culture. Which I find fascinating. If allowing people to climb the rock draws people in - then I think that's a positive outcome.

Having said that - it's a big lump of rock, and it saddens me that people get so crappy in this thread.

How far back do we go? I'm sure that the Dinosaurs aren't happy with the human race... Should we eliminate all human beings because the true owners of the planet are the Dinosaurs? Or do we go back even further - and eliminate all humans and animals because nobody "owns" the planet? :wasntme: :angel:

[MrLandy]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

Mods do you still think this thread is acceptable?!

Bob, I'm sure you didn't intend to provoke such outrageous racist commentary, but you knew it would be provocative.

I'm going to cancel my AULRO subscription unless this thread is stopped.

Sincerely

[bee utey]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

Mods do you still this thread is acceptable?!

Bob, I'm sure you didn't intend to provoke such outrageous racist commentary, but you knew it would be provocative.

I'm going to cancel my AULRO subscription unless this thread is stopped.

Sincerely
I think you would do well to re read the previous post, and not fly off the handle at a non existent insult.

[Tombie]

I think you would do well to re read the previous post, and not fly off the handle at a non existent insult.



Exactly.

[incisor]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

not sure what your on but it isn't doing your comprehension skills any favours...

it is being watched but your feigning outrage every time someone dares to disagree with your point of view doesn't help keep the thread where it needs to be.

you need to make sense if you want people to absorb your point of view.

thank you...

[rangieman]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

Mods do you still think this thread is acceptable?!

Bob, I'm sure you didn't intend to provoke such outrageous racist commentary, but you knew it would be provocative.

I'm going to cancel my AULRO subscription unless this thread is stopped.

Sincerely

You have been told before by the mods if you feel this thread is reportable Report it !
Dont stomp you feet and threaten to leave . Do you really think some would get upset if you move on ;)

[Blknight.aus]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

Mods do you still think this thread is acceptable?! This is one of the most

Bob, I'm sure you didn't intend to provoke such outrageous racist commentary, but you knew it would be provocative.

I'm going to cancel my AULRO subscription unless this thread is stopped.

Sincerely

Didn't you already make a bunch of noise about something along those lines


Well weeds, if it's not deleted, I'm out. No room for racism in my world.

My post is nowhere near as offensive as the majority of those above.


This vicious gleeful trampling of another cultures religious beliefs is revolting. I'm out.

I mean, it could just be me but they are your quotes....

I think a little Toby Kieth is required on your part but thats just my thoughts and opinion on the matter. For those not a versed in country as myself... clicky linky

Wait, I think I missed something....
And if you believe that I've got a bridge and a hiclone to sell you


It is highly disrespectful towards Anangu people.


by insisting on climbing Uluru, you are telling Aranda people to live by your belief system.


which people is it we're talking about here?

By the by I (and possibly others) am still waiting on your answers to my questions. Unless you feel so strongly about the matter that you must bail out of AULRO before you can answer them, in which case, It's ok I understand and appreciate your decency in the matter.

[Blknight.aus]

It's a pity you didn't get to Docker River. A little community between Uluru and the WA border. A dry community, it is one of the success stories of the region. Governed under tribal law, and law of the land, overseen by a NT Government Official and a small staff. A good mate of mine was that official for a couple of years. Doesn't mean they don't have problems, but grog isn't one of them.[ or wasn't back then] While he was there , the elders decided a ritual spearing was required to teach a young buck a lesson. Something to do with a woman. After the spearing he was required to go bush, with some minders, to relearn the clan rules.


I have been.

Ive been to several of the proper dry communities that still try to live as they were, on a couple of occasions under escort of some of the norforce blokes, sometimes for work reasons sometimes just because I could.

Ive seen the aboriginals at their best and I've seen them at their worst.

Theres a line I draw in the sand, and I gave one of our local indegenous cops a moment to pause when he had pulled me over for a breatho check.

Fair warning the next bit contains the word "Coon" and "aboriginal" No the 2 words are not interchangeable they infer a different level of respect.

heres the story.

I got pulled over by an aboriginal copper for a breath test, a few minutes of the ritual questions and license hand over and take back and blow in the straw and then he asked about why the steering column trim was missing, I told him the truth, I'd scared off some coon kid who was trying to steal the car out of my driveway at night, I was lucky that I was only out on the back deck reading and not watching a movie and he ran off when I got downstairs.

Naturally and understandably he got a little warmed under the collar and made comment that I should be careful because Not all us coons are bad.

Itold him I wasnt inferring he was a coon, he was an aboriginal, he was supporting the community, wasnt causing any problems and was being respectful when talking to me. An aboriginal wouldn't have been trying to steal my car, if he needed it he would have approached me and asked, a coon on the other hand,

After what felt like a minute he nodded wished me a good night and safe trip.

There in lies the difference between a coon and an aboriginal.


Want to see the same level of disrespect from within this thread?


I've never read a bigger load of disrespectful, ignorant, bogun bull

[Homestar]

Seriously???? Now someone is comparing Aranda people to dinosaurs!!!!!

Mods do you still think this thread is acceptable?!

Bob, I'm sure you didn't intend to provoke such outrageous racist commentary, but you knew it would be provocative.

I'm going to cancel my AULRO subscription unless this thread is stopped.

Sincerely

Yes. As has been mentioned we are keeping a close eye on it, but it only seems to be you who is infuriated by every comment made.

If you think a post is unacceptable, them REPORT IT! I'm starting to sound like a broken record because you (and others) been told this before but have never reported a post you think is 'outrageous and/or unacceptable'. If no one reports it, it isn't going to get acted on - simple. If you really thing that post is unacceptable then hit the report button, type in an explanation of why you think it is and I PROMISE you it will get looked at.

What else do you want us to do?

[Blknight.aus]

Sorry, but your explanation is just a tad simplistic. As explained before, the influence of Missionaries created a underclass of fringe dwellers, uninitiated adults ,often seen on the banks of the Todd river. It was this group which was empowered by some smart white men, and indeed set up to fail.Which they did, not surprisingly. .

The greatness of a society is how well it can pull success out of a given situation.

There is no situation that can not be exited in victory, sometimes its hard, near impossible and often can only be managed by the application of extreme luck. Sometimes you have to redefine your goals for victory or the time frame that you allocate to achieve your goal. In the latter case while you work to victory lifes going to suck, lifes like that.

Funny thing luck, the harder you work the luckier you get.

Was the situation that the locals were put in setup to fail, probably, did that doom or predetermine failure, of course not. There was a number of paths that could have and should have been taken but weren't.

That said.

Did you know that there is a way that the rock can be climbed within the confines of the locals laws? there are only certain parts of the rock that hold the key spiritual value and the rest of it is essentially just a "traverse" to get to those places?

in vague essence its sort of similar to the travels of the Wagyl in WA. Where the Wagyl traversed and left its trails forming the landscape as it went the traditional owners have no issue with us travelling or camping, Where it paused and created the hallows of their sacred sites and burial grounds we can go and observe, are asked not to enter unless invited and in a few areas where its not reasonable to skirt the ground "pathways" have been "cleansed" for us to pass through.

I learnt a lot on my second trip up the rock, mostly due to the company of the people who were taking me up.

as for my prior point 2.

where there is leeway for some to climb there should be leeway for all to climb IF they are willing to abide by the rules that permit that leway.

An $2 donation? no, us white fellas aren't going to respect something that is worth the same as a throw away meal from maccas and less than a small not even decent coffee.

you want to go see the rock as I've seen it.. you go and you learn and you learn properly, you understand what the significance of it is, you learn the history and heritage of the people and why this place is so important to them and then you can go and see the parts of it you are allowed to see, you can take photographs of it from the ground, you can take photos off of it facing out and away and you can be escorted and you can have all of your photographs vetted on the way out.

There is only one way your average "White fella" is going to learn to respect the rock for what it is. Its not by telling him he cant go climb it.

[Chops]

Mr Landy, are you able to give me any info on my earlier question at all please. I am interested as to how often it is used in the cultural sense.
And as for the other thread.
I'd be rather keen to hear the responses from the government and tourist places too. Perhaps for the benefit of the thread and your argument over why we should not walk up, you could just post them on there.

[DiscoMick]

I hope I've cut my original post out of that correctly and left the question you wanted me to answer in place.

Without wanting or intending to derail/hijack this thread

Sure can, heres my favorite 3 in answer a question with a question format.

whats the only exception to wearing of mandatory PPE in workplace environments requiring safety helmets and in some cases dust masks

for what reason is the full menu no longer available in some places I normally eat?

Why is it not legal to report negatively some peoples inability to work a full normal shift while meeting full productivity requirements when I would be mandated to do so for any other person?



to breach over into the immigration side of where this thread will wind up dancing with

yep, I've no problems with people wanting to come here, I have no problem with them wanting to have and share their beliefs/

I have problems when they try to tell me that I have to live my life by their belief system.

the really short, politically correct version of my feelings on all of this is

"you go do you over there, I'll go do me over here. I appreciate you inviting me to your world and when visiting under your invite I'll abide by your expectations and customs. You're just as welcome to come and visit my world under the same expectation. However If I have abilities or resources that you want to have access to then you are coming into my world to gain that access. If I give you that support then you forfeit your right to complain about the way other aspects of my world are not compliant with yours because you came to my world."

Before anyone makes the obvious comments.

yes, Im aware, stolen generation, yes the aboriginals were treated abhorently in the past, No, I personally do not agree with "the apology". Yes my personal view is essentially "Hang on, you want your cake and to eat it too. One or the other, you and your people either integrate into our society or you and your people stop mooching off of ours. Polarize and be done with it when you've made your decision come let us know and we'll abide by it, no half measure no compromise."

I suggest that could be a separate topic in Current Affairs as it would be impossible to discuss properly without going political, which isn't allowed outside CA.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[VladTepes]

there is also the safety issue with people having heart attacks or getting lost or falling, who then have to be rescued. We don't let people climb to the top of St Marys Cathedral, for example.


The nanny state argument.

Yes people should be allowed to climb it.
It should be a matter of personal choice.

When it comes down to it, it's just a big rock.
People climbing on it doesn't change anything in regard to its aboriginal significance.

[Mick_Marsh]

I suggest that could be a separate topic in Current Affairs as it would be impossible to discuss properly without going political, which isn't allowed outside CA.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app
Nothing stopping you starting one up there.

[sheerluck]

.....When it comes down to it, it's just a big rock.....

That's the same as saying that a cathedral "is just another building".

If someone wandered into your house, kicked their boots off, opened the fridge and helped themselves to your beer, I reckon you'd be a tad upset.
Then you ask "what the hell you doing in my bloody house?", and they answer "well it's just a building, what you getting upset for?"

May not have any significance to them, but it sure as hell would to you......

[rangieman]

That's the same as saying that a cathedral "is just another building".

If someone wandered into your house, kicked their boots off, opened the fridge and helped themselves to your beer, I reckon you'd be a tad upset.
Then you ask "what the hell you doing in my bloody house?", and they answer "well it's just a building, what you getting upset for?"

May not have any significance to them, but it sure as hell would to you......

If someone did that in my house they better offer me one of my beers or there will be trouble:angel:
Well if said people want to class it as their personal house which it aint go and lock it up and put some sort of security there if not do`nt argue or sook .
Honestly a dead criminal will not tell lies or get a chance to defend them self in a court of law :angel: Now would anyone like to come break into my place and drink my beer;)

[Chops]

That's the same as saying that a cathedral "is just another building".

If someone wandered into your house, kicked their boots off, opened the fridge and helped themselves to your beer, I reckon you'd be a tad upset.
Then you ask "what the hell you doing in my bloody house?", and they answer "well it's just a building, what you getting upset for?"

May not have any significance to them, but it sure as hell would to you......
Not quite sure it's anywhere near the same thing as such. But funny how you can actually get guided tours through most, if not all cathedrals,, one only has to ask if it's not on the tourist list. Those of notoriety are mahout tourist attractions. These are buildings that are "man made", not just part of the landscape.

Coming into "my house",, something that has been "paid for" by "me", through hard work, sweat and tears, this is an entirely different matter.

[Mick_Marsh]

If someone wandered into your house, kicked their boots off, opened the fridge and helped themselves to your beer, I reckon you'd be a tad upset.
If my house was leased out to "National Parks", they'd be quite entitled to.
Uluru is not a privately owned property.

[67hardtop]

Hey maybe mt Everest has some religeous meaning to someone but its not stopping ppl climbing it or even dying on it. Why do ppl want to climb Uluru??? COZ ITS THERE.

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

It's been my experience here that when the thread starts going round and round, with the same old points bought up by new posters, even though their questions have been answered early in the thread, [ which they have obviously not read,] time to move on.

[sheerluck]

Not quite sure it's anywhere near the same thing as such. But funny how you can actually get guided tours through most, if not all cathedrals,, one only has to ask if it's not on the tourist list. Those of notoriety are mahout tourist attractions. These are buildings that are "man made", not just part of the landscape.

Coming into "my house",, something that has been "paid for" by "me", through hard work, sweat and tears, this is an entirely different matter.

The point has been missed. Vlad described Uluru in a rather dismissive fashion in his post as "just a big rock", where it has already been made clear early in the thread that it does have major cultural significance. I was merely attempting to draw parallels with places of either religious or personal significance, the question of ownership does not necessarily arise.

[Pickles2]

It's been my experience here that when the thread starts going round and round, with the same old points bought up by new posters, even though their questions have been answered early in the thread, [ which they have obviously not read,] time to move on..
Not so, in this case.
It is an interesting subject with varying views, and many new ones, for me anyway.
You have said, I don't "get it". Well simply because I disagree with you does not mean that at all,...it simply means that we do not agree.
One of my very best friends was Grahame Walsh (I will try to put up a link), with whom I went to school with in Toowoomba in the sixties. Grahame grew up with Aboriginal People at Injune where his family were graziers, I think some of the family may still be there. Grahame became Australia's foremost expert in Aboriginal Rock Art, receiving Honarary degrees, doctorates etc, he also wrote many books, some of which are collectors items now. He took over 1.3 MILLION photos, & would've visited all the sacred/rock art sites in Australia. He built Takarakka at Carnarvon Gorge, where I visited him and was told by Aboriginals there that Grahame "had forgotten more of Aboriginal Legend, than most Aboriginals ever knew". We had many many discussions relative to Aboriginal People, so perhaps I may "get it"a bit more than you think. He was an amazing man with huge knowledge.
There is a post in this thread that mentions ways that it is possible to climb, without offence to anyone,...Grahame told me something similar.
But I have been listening to everyone's views, and I will just say this:
Like i said, I have climbed, many years ago when i was fit enough to do so, but even if I was fit enough to do so ,.AGAIN, I would not do so. I would still advise anyone who hasn't, & is able to do so, to climb for reasons I've mentioned, but NOW, out of respect, I believe once should be enough, well it is for me anyway.
My computer is playing up at the moment, so I can't put up the link, but will try to do so asap.I can do the link now

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/17/1095394002333.html

Pickles.

[gromit]

Wow, just read this thread and learned something about Uluru, the traditional owners and how some people clearly see things as black & white (no racism intended !).

Firstly, I climbed it in the 90's as a tourist over from the UK.

From this thread there seem to be three camps, yes, no and let people make up their own minds. I personally agree with the last view but feel that the tour operators need to take some responsibility (although I'm not sure what they tell visitors currently but I got very little back in the 90's).

As an overseas visitor it was the done thing to 'climb Ayers Rock' I think I got a T-shirt back then that advertised that I'd climbed Ayers Rock (may still have it if I look but it's probably 'shrunk'). So the education needs to extend overseas although with the Internet a little research throws up that the traditional owners do not wish people to climb.

You are not stopped from climbing at the moment but asked not to so it's up to the individual. If they announced that it was being stopped in the future would there be a big rush to climb it before it was stopped ? I think there would.....

Has anyone produced a professional film of the climb and the views from the top ? Something like this that could be shown to visitors might reduce the number of climbers. Showing how strenuous it is would definitely put a few people off.
I do remember the feeling as you got to 'chicken rock', the wind speed picked up and the bloody flies finally disappeared.


Would I climb it again......I'm not sure, I've been there, done that, but I would make sure my kids understood why they are requested not to climb and then let them make up their own minds.


Colin

[bob10]

.
Not so, in this case.
It is an interesting subject with varying views, and many new ones, for me anyway.
You have said, I don't "get it". Well simply because I disagree with you does not mean that at all,...it simply means that we do not agree.


That is the only point you have made which is correct.

[bee utey]

The entire Australian continent was sacred to its inhabitants before White Man arrived. Therefore we should all bugger off to where our ancestors came from. Australia was invaded, not settled. It's all or nothing.

Discuss.

[squizzyhunter]

The entire Australian continent was sacred to its inhabitants before White Man arrived. Therefore we should all bugger off to where our ancestors came from. Australia was invaded, not settled. It's all or nothing.

Discuss.

Fair point it's like we walked up and ****ed all over their D4 interior but feel we should take our shoes off before getting in, because we have the upmost respect and feel we must show it by yelling at others that forgot to take their shoes off while we sit in a **** covered bucket seat with our bare feet on the dash.

[Mick_Marsh]

The entire Australian continent was sacred to its inhabitants before White Man arrived. Therefore we should all bugger off to where our ancestors came from. Australia was invaded, not settled. It's all or nothing.

Discuss.
Why not go back further. Everybody should return to Africa.
World-first genome study reveals rich history of Aboriginal Australians - Science News - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376)

[tact]

Finally read right to the end of the thread.

Every single post is off topic. What's wrong with you all!?

May I remind readers that the topic is "Should tourists climb Uluru?"

Every post in this epic thread is about whether we should climb Uluru. (For dullards: keyword is "we" and that should be an all inclusive "we" Australians)

In the many off topic posts about whether "we" should climb Uluru, some are really pushing a cultural divide of the "we". Surely the "assimilation or not" debate isn't the topic here? (Ie the question of whether the indigenous and invaders of long ago are now a "we", or should be or should not be)

Back on topic: Tourists don't have any rights that come with citizenship or residency so the "we" (if such even exists or should exist) just need to decide yes or no and make sure it's clear to tourists so their expectations are properly set.

[sheerluck]

Finally read right to the end of the thread.

Every single post is off topic. What's wrong with you all!?

May I remind readers that the topic is "Should tourists climb Uluru?".......

Given the definition of tourist is

someone who visits a place for pleasure and interest, usually while on holiday
We would be talking about everyone except those who live in the immediate environs of Uluru, not necessarily just overseas visitors.

So we are on topic.

[tact]

Further to the offtopic "what the we can and can't do" discussions:
- it appears that there are very strong arguments that any racial divisions are artificial divisions. (One only human race)

- assuming so, then it comes down to the only real divisions are based on nations' borders (national identity) and cultural divisions.

Within a nation there may be one culture, but often there be multiple cultures resident within a nation's borders. (Tiny nation/state/city Singapore has 3 distinct cultures resident)

BlkKnightAus (I think?) made a very perceptive point that relates to all of the above: Within a nation no one cultural group should have any right to force the other cultural groups to behave as they do. ("Don't tell me I can't eat bacon").

..Which links to the next level down, subcultures. Lots of different subcultures can be described. The bogan. The goth. I'd toss religion into this bucket. (The bacon reference relates to a religious prohibition).

So as to avoid the prohibition on religious discussion and risking this thread being closed - I won't discuss any religion as such.

I will say though that the point about one culture not demanding other cultures do and don't do, the things they do/don't do - it also stands for subcultures like surfer subculture and the religious subculture. Ie just because one subculture says "this is sacred to me", does not mandate any behavioral modification by other cultures.

Note the term "mandate" in the above. Common sense and respect may drive certain non-mandatory behavior modifications. Like not taking a bacon sanger to a synagogue or not farting in a crowded elevator.

[tact]

Given the definition of tourist is
"someone who visits a place for pleasure and interest, usually while on holiday"

We would be talking about everyone except those who live in the immediate environs of Uluru, not necessarily just overseas visitors.

So we are on topic.

Flawed definition & logic. That def'n&logic would have you a tourist in your own toilet. (When you take a dump on Australia Day). :twisted:

[sheerluck]

Flawed definition & logic. That def'n&logic would have you a tourist in your own toilet. (When you take a dump on Australia Day). :twisted:

Well done on the twisted logic there.;)

Not my definition, but from the Oxford English Dictionary. Coupled with the fact that nowhere in the OP has Bob mentioned overseas tourists.

If I go for a weekend in Sydney, I'm there as a tourist, even though I'm a citizen and entitled to wander pretty much anywhere with public access within the shores of this fair land.
If I go to Uluru, I'd be there as a tourist.

I'd be pretty sure that the "man on the street" would accept that dictionary definition as being correct.

Plus I only ever use the main bathroom toilet on public holidays, just for variety. :p

[squizzyhunter]

I will say though that the point about one culture not demanding other cultures do and don't do, the things they do/don't do - it also stands for subcultures like surfer subculture and the religious subculture.

As a surfer I take offence to this parallel with religion 😄

I agree about the "we" that should exist in our society but have to disagree with the seismic jump in interpretation of tourist definition.

[tact]

As a surfer I take offence to this parallel with religion ��

I agree about the "we" that should exist in our society but have to disagree with the seismic jump in interpretation of tourist definition.

Whispering: the tourist def'n thing and telling you all you got it wrong was a bit more tongue in cheek than is apparently realized.

The "we" thing is the key point though. "We" are either all tourists (Domestic as opposed to overseas tourists) or "we" are all not tourists - for the discussion at hand. Who was here before Uluru?

I don't accept the argument that you, as a domestic tourist to Uluru, are somehow no different to foreign/overseas tourists and as such have less rights to walk on Uluru than those who live near Uluru. Point: Where is the line drawn? How close to Uluru must you live to not be seen as any other "tourist"?

I do think a valid discrimination can be made between foreign tourists and locals on holiday. I call into question any discrimination amongst the "we" Australians - no matter how far your home in Oz is from Uluru.

[VladTepes]

I think a lot of people are really OVERTHINKING in this thread now....

[VladTepes]

The point has been missed. Vlad described Uluru in a rather dismissive fashion in his post as "just a big rock", where it has already been made clear early in the thread that it does have major cultural significance. I was merely attempting to draw parallels with places of either religious or personal significance, the question of ownership does not necessarily arise.


That's what I said put Chops put it much more eloquently.




In any event I'm not going to take any further part in this discussion as it appears to me that some people can't accept that others have different views. That is, if I disagree with their "don't climb the rock' then it MUST be me who is wrong.


I'm off to read about Land Rovers....

[Pickles2]

That's what I said put Chops put it much more eloquently.




In any event I'm not going to take any further part in this discussion as it appears to me that some people can't accept that others have different views. That is, if I disagree with their "don't climb the rock' then it MUST be me who is wrong.


I'm off to read about Land Rovers....
Agree,.....but you ain't wrong at all my friend, because you are right in that We can all have differing opinions, and you are also right in that some, as they have demonstrated, cannot accept that.
What I find rather silly, is the people who cannot accept that there are other opinions than theirs, and so make vitriolic, derogatory, "personal" comments, try to make a lot of "noise" to get their point across, get the thread closed etc.....just decreases their credibility in my eyes.
In this case, we have had enough sensible people of various opinions, to have a great discussion.
Pickles.

[Cobber]

Climb it as often as you can.:BigThumb: :BigThumb:

[bob10]

Why not go back further. Everybody should return to Africa.
World-first genome study reveals rich history of Aboriginal Australians - Science News - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-22/world-first-study-reveals-rich-history-of-aboriginal-australians/7858376)

As long as we can take our Land Rovers.

[bob10]

This has been an interesting conversation. Once again it points out the fact never tell an Australian he can't do something. I need to make this point. It is not my intention to say people must not climb Uluru. And indeed, it is not in the interests of some indigenous people to say that. After all, it is money in their pockets. Or, some ones pockets, at least. The point I am trying to make is, try to learn about the culture, and respect the old ways. Those who say the indigenous people must assimilate, and be like us, without the discipline of the old ways, be careful what you wish for. Any one who has lived in the Territory, or North Qld. , will know what I mean.

[Pickles2]

Bob, I have a question for you.
Despite what you may think, & despite the fact that We disagree, maybe you may choose to believe that I have been giving this issue some thought.
So, I've been doing a bit of "googling", and I have discovered that some of the signs around The Rock, placed there on behalf of the Anangu People say, words to the effect, "Please don't climb", "We'd prefer that you did not" etc. I have read that these words are sort of a "characteristic" of Aboriginal People who do not like to use the word "No". Is this correct?
Anyway, with respect to that, if those words remain, and that is all there is to disuade climbing, I would say there will be no end to it.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

The wording of those signs is an appeal to the readers to have the good manners to respect the wishes of the land owners.

If you come to my house and I ask you to take off your shoes to avoid tramping mud through the house, but you say you don't care what I think and you'll wear your shoes any where you damm weĺl like, including inside my house, then what will I think of you? I will think you're a rude and ignorant pig and I'll get you out of my house ASAP.

This whole debate reminds me of one of the reasons we used to usually avoid tourist areas while we lived in Thailand - they were full of Aussies and others behaving badly and we didn't want to have to apologise to our Thai friends for the bad behaviour of fellow Aussies. I have similar feelings about Uluru.


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

Bob, I have a question for you.
Despite what you may think, & despite the fact that We disagree, maybe you may choose to believe that I have been giving this issue some thought.
So, I've been doing a bit of "googling", and I have discovered that some of the signs around The Rock, placed there on behalf of the Anangu People say, words to the effect, "Please don't climb", "We'd prefer that you did not" etc. I have read that these words are sort of a "characteristic" of Aboriginal People who do not like to use the word "No". Is this correct?
Anyway, with respect to that, if those words remain, and that is all there is to disuade climbing, I would say there will be no end to it.
Pickles.

"Climbing Uluru" is a metaphor for aboriginal conscience.

[Pickles2]

"Climbing Uluru" is a metaphor for aboriginal conscience.
I thought I asked you quite a reasonable, sensible, "non political" question?
I wouldn't mind an answer?
Pickles.

[Tombie]

People, please keep in mind... Opinions are like your John Thomas... [emoji6]

It's ok to have one, but not always acceptable to get it out and wave it in somebody's face [emoji56]

(We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread)

[Pickles2]

I'm not waving anything in anyone's face.
Bob is the O.P.. I asked him (what I thought) a simple question in my post 189 with respect to Aboriginals' "interpretation" of "No" in respect to the signs in question. A fair question, I thought. If there is anything offensive in that particular question, then as a well known Australian once said, "Please Explain".
The question wasn't even really specific to this thread, but a reasonable informative answer may enlighten me, & maybe others, as to why such signs are worded this way.
It appears that Bob cannot understand the question, so is unable to answer. Consequently, if there's anyone else who would be willing to enlighten me, that would be good.
There is no malice or "ulterior motive" in my question, in fact, I would've thought that it did at least show, that I was at least giving this emotional subject some thought, but albeit, obviously not in the eyes of some.
Review my original question in post 189 if you wish, before you answer.
Pickles.

[Tombie]

And my post wasn't aimed at you. It was a general comment[emoji6]

[rangieman]

I'm not waving anything in anyone's face.
Bob is the O.P.. I asked him (what I thought) a simple question in my post 189 with respect to Aboriginals' "interpretation" of "No" in respect to the signs in question. A fair question, I thought. If there is anything offensive in that particular question, then as a well known Australian once said, "Please Explain".
The question wasn't even really specific to this thread, but a reasonable informative answer may enlighten me, & maybe others, as to why such signs are worded this way.
It appears that Bob cannot understand the question, so is unable to answer. Consequently, if there's anyone else who would be willing to enlighten me, that would be good.
There is no malice or "ulterior motive" in my question, in fact, I would've thought that it did at least show, that I was at least giving this emotional subject some thought, but albeit, obviously not in the eyes of some.
Review my original question in post 189 if you wish, before you answer.
Pickles.
I read your post and understood as you say in your original post and even now i still understand it :cool:
I get the feeling that some here have a alternative motive so will just dance around in circles:cool:

[Bytemrk]

People, please keep in mind... Opinions are like your John Thomas... [emoji6]


It appears some opinions are bigger than others ....:angel:

[biggin]

It's a rock, get over it.

And the only way to do that, is to climb it.

But to answer the OP's question:
If you want to, but it shouldn't be compulsory.

[DiscoMick]

I'm not waving anything in anyone's face.
Bob is the O.P.. I asked him (what I thought) a simple question in my post 189 with respect to Aboriginals' "interpretation" of "No" in respect to the signs in question. A fair question, I thought. If there is anything offensive in that particular question, then as a well known Australian once said, "Please Explain".
The question wasn't even really specific to this thread, but a reasonable informative answer may enlighten me, & maybe others, as to why such signs are worded this way.
It appears that Bob cannot understand the question, so is unable to answer. Consequently, if there's anyone else who would be willing to enlighten me, that would be good.
There is no malice or "ulterior motive" in my question, in fact, I would've thought that it did at least show, that I was at least giving this emotional subject some thought, but albeit, obviously not in the eyes of some.
Review my original question in post 189 if you wish, before you answer.
Pickles.

Because in some cultures its considered rude to state a flat out 'No' and instead people drop hints and hope the listener is cluey enough about polite manners in other cultures to get the hint and not ask again. This is very common in Asian and Pacific Islander cultures.

Unfortunately, I have found that many Aussies and Yanks, who come from a different, individualistic, American-influenced culture, simply don't 'get' it and blunder along, not even realising they are offending others.

The Uluru signs are a polite way of asking visitors to respect the wishes of the locals. Obviously, many visitors either don't 'get' the hint or are too self-centred to care about the wishes of others.

Personally, I think the best answer would be to simply ban climbing altogether. That could be justified on the safety grounds of the custodians having a duty of care to prevent more deaths, as well as on cultural grounds. Many NPs have closed areas.

Some people would no doubt be outraged, but so what? Those people obviously don't care about the feelings of others, so why should we care about their feelings?

Actions have consequences - harsh reality. If its 'just a rock', then why care about not being able to climb it? Take the tour, buy the DVD or fly a drone over it, but get over it. My opinion.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

I thought I asked you quite a reasonable, sensible, "non political" question?
I wouldn't mind an answer?
Pickles.

No offence meant, but surely you can work that out for your self, this thread has been done to death . I suggest you ask Murrandoo Yanner if aborigines are reluctant to say no. Wear a mouth guard.

[Pickles2]

Well, I don't think the thread "has been done to death", and I'm not going to ask anyone else, I don't need to, because in view of your comments (of which i have NO issues, none at all) in this thread, I honestly thought that you would be able to answer, a 100% innocent question, and it IS, a genuine "knowledge seeking" question.
So, in a final endeavour, could you please have a go at answering my question with respect to why the signs are worded that way?
Pickles.

[bob10]

Well, I don't think the thread "has been done to death", and I'm not going to ask anyone else, I don't need to, because in view of your comments (of which i have NO issues, none at all) in this thread, I honestly thought that you would be able to answer, a 100% innocent question, and it IS, a genuine "knowledge seeking" question.
So, in a final endeavour, could you please have a go at answering my question with respect to why the signs are worded that way?
Pickles.

How do you know that the signs weren't written by some hangers on from the green movement. Or some other parasite mob. I doubt that the Aboriginal custodians would lower themselves to do a childish thing like that. If they did, there would a focus group in the back ground some where. I've had a go, back off. What's next? did a dingo take the baby? I get the impression you are posting, just to stir the pot. Well, the pots empty.

[tact]

Well, I don't think the thread "has been done to death", and I'm not going to ask anyone else, I don't need to, because in view of your comments (of which i have NO issues, none at all) in this thread, I honestly thought that you would be able to answer, a 100% innocent question, and it IS, a genuine "knowledge seeking" question.
So, in a final endeavour, could you please have a go at answering my question with respect to why the signs are worded that way?
Pickles.

Fair enough too Pickles... (and I see a few more mulberry bush answers instead of straight info sharing).

Over here in Malaysia you have to be careful to understand when "yes" doesn't always mean yes with some of the cultures you deal with on a daily basis.

I too don't know if thats part of Australian aboriginal culture. Would like to know.

[bob10]

Fair enough too Pickles... (and I see a few more mulberry bush answers instead of straight info sharing).

Over here in Malaysia you have to be careful to understand when "yes" doesn't always mean yes with some of the cultures you deal with on a daily basis.

I too don't know if thats part of Australian aboriginal culture. Would like to know.

There are many avenues to find that out, the least being a Land Rover Forum. If you were serious, you would go down those avenues. Mulberry bush answers? Share straight information here, chances are, you just get the trolls pushing to the limit. And, I am willing to bet, you have not looked at the thread, in its entirety. Goodbye.

[rangieman]

So maybe all us white fellas asking legit questions are all trolls now .
Come on Bob do`nt sink to a all time low :cool:.
We are all being fair here and everyone has had a go at understanding each side of the fence here;)

[Pickles2]

Rangie,...You have "hit the nail on the head", ...there is no ulterior/sinister motive here,...I'm simply asking for an explanation from Bob, regarding the wording on the signs in question,......"?Offensive"?...as Bob says?...No way,...any comments relative to this thread ain't offensive to me, & do not become offensive to me,....unless they are personal, which comments/posts will never emanate from me.
I was not the "O.P." in his instance,....doesn't matter,...whatever your views are, we should all be able to air our views, which we can, at the moment, in this great country of ours,.....BUT,...it's something I don't take for granted, because I think things are changing?
I don't find anyone's views "offensive", why should I?...they're just different to mine,...just different.
Nevertheless, an answer to my original question would be good.
Pickles.

[bob10]

So maybe all us white fellas asking legit questions are all trolls now .
Come on Bob do`nt sink to a all time low :cool:.
We are all being fair here and everyone has had a go at understanding each side of the fence here;)

Goodbye.

[bob10]

Rangie,...You have "hit the nail on the head", ...there is no ulterior/sinister motive here,...I'm simply asking for an explanation from Bob, regarding the wording on the signs in question,......"?Offensive"?...as Bob says?...No way,...any comments relative to this thread ain't offensive to me, & do not become offensive to me,....unless they are personal, which comments/posts will never emanate from me.
I was not the "O.P." in his instance,....doesn't matter,...whatever your views are, we should all be able to air our views, which we can, at the moment, in this great country of ours,.....BUT,...it's something I don't take for granted, because I think things are changing?
I don't find anyone's views "offensive", why should I?...they're just different to mine,...just different.
Nevertheless, an answer to my original question would be good.
Pickles.

Goodbye, troll.

[Blknight.aus]

Bob, I have a question for you.
Despite what you may think, & despite the fact that We disagree, maybe you may choose to believe that I have been giving this issue some thought.
So, I've been doing a bit of "googling", and I have discovered that some of the signs around The Rock, placed there on behalf of the Anangu People say, words to the effect, "Please don't climb", "We'd prefer that you did not" etc. I have read that these words are sort of a "characteristic" of Aboriginal People who do not like to use the word "No". Is this correct?
Anyway, with respect to that, if those words remain, and that is all there is to disuade climbing, I would say there will be no end to it.
Pickles.

On behalf of the OP to answer your question that I have highlighted in blue

There are some aboriginal tribes that tend to not use the word no.
There are some aboriginal tribes that have no issue with it.

there isnt a definitive single answer for your question for the aboriginals as a whole (and I'm not counting the partials in this they have generally have no problem saying no and a lot of other funny whiteman words their tribal elders would be ashamed to know they use) Very vaguely it would be like going to Europe and assuming that the whole continent is the same as the first country you visit.

[tact]

There are many avenues to find that out, the least being a Land Rover Forum. If you were serious, you would go down those avenues. Mulberry bush answers? Share straight information here, chances are, you just get the trolls pushing to the limit. And, I am willing to bet, you have not looked at the thread, in its entirety. Goodbye.

I'll swear on anything you hold sacred, oh! Uluru!, that I did in fact read every post in this thread before I posted. Very disappointed you play the man making such an assertion - that I lied in saying I had read all.

Yes - I will go and see what google turns up. How dare I ask such a question in a Land Rover Forum thread - even one that is largely about aboriginal culture(?). Silly me.

[PLR]

G`day ,

seems the Anungu word Wiya translates to no or don`t in English or is being represented as such .

Would presume the definition would be as English .

[EastFreo]

one thing that stands out to me from reading this thread is how many of us have had little to do with our aboriginal community. It is a sad indictment of our society.

I am not an expert in aboriginal affairs but growing up in the country I was lucky to have an aboriginal family in our town that treated me fairer than many. I have had my fair share of exchanging a few blows as a kid with some and then many beers with the same individual as an adult. Maybe more of us need the same!

Can I judge if no is "no" in their culture (regardless of the fact there are many many sub categories within this). Not really. But I do try my best to gauge it whatever their colour.

[Pickles2]

On behalf of the OP to answer your question that I have highlighted in blue

There are some aboriginal tribes that tend to not use the word no.
There are some aboriginal tribes that have no issue with it.

there isnt a definitive single answer for your question for the aboriginals as a whole (and I'm not counting the partials in this they have generally have no problem saying no and a lot of other funny whiteman words their tribal elders would be ashamed to know they use) Very vaguely it would be like going to Europe and assuming that the whole continent is the same as the first country you visit.
Thanks for that.
That is all I was seeking.
Pickles

[tact]

On behalf of the OP to answer your question that I have highlighted in blue

There are some aboriginal tribes that tend to not use the word no.
There are some aboriginal tribes that have no issue with it.

there isnt a definitive single answer for your question for the aboriginals as a whole (and I'm not counting the partials in this they have generally have no problem saying no and a lot of other funny whiteman words their tribal elders would be ashamed to know they use) Very vaguely it would be like going to Europe and assuming that the whole continent is the same as the first country you visit.

Thanks for that, Blknight.aus. I spent half an hour googling a wide variety of search terms looking for answers and came away none the wiser.

bob10: I'll be completely and utterly..... unperturbed.... should you call into question the veracity of my statement above, or the seriousness or sincerity of a mere 30 minute google effort, or my skills with search engines.

[tact]

Here is a relevant article in a Malaysian online newspaper regards Uluru and tourism. (Not from search efforts, just happened to be in my newsfeed this morning)

Lure of Australia’s Uluru hard to resist for many tourists | Travel | Mobile | Malay Mail Online (http://m.themalaymailonline.com/travel/article/lure-of-australias-uluru-hard-to-resist-for-many-tourists?campaign_id=A100)

[DiscoMick]

Yes means 'Yes, I hear you', not 'Yes, I agree' in some cultures.
Just because Aboriginal representatives have agreed to some compromise about climbing does not necessarily mean they agree to climbing.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

It appears some opinions are bigger than others ....:angel:



Nothing grows without sunlight.

[workingonit]

Mushrooms...

[rangieman]

Mushrooms...

You what they say about Mushroom`s Kept in the Dark and fed on Bull****:p
Seems to ring a bell for some:angel:

[austastar]

Hi,

Keep it fun guys!


Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using AULRO mobile app

[ramblingboy42]

Thanks for that, Blknight.aus. I spent half an hour googling a wide variety of search terms looking for answers and came away none the wiser.

bob10: I'll be completely and utterly..... unperturbed.... should you call into question the veracity of my statement above, or the seriousness or sincerity of a mere 30 minute google effort, or my skills with search engines.

oh give it away Neil , Bob left the thread already and you continue trying to take him down.

[bob10]

oh give it away Neil , Bob left the thread already and you continue trying to take him down.

To quote my late Father, He's never sucked the milk.

[DiscoMick]

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-04/australians-who-stripped-at-malaysia-grand-prix-may-face-charges/7902410

Here's another example of Aussie boofheads displaying nil sensitivity to the feelings of people from other cultures. Didn't it occur to any of these geniuses that Malaysians might be offended by having their national flag, a symbol of freedom from colonial subjection, turned into skimpy swimwear for display on worldwide TV?
While we might just laugh at their stupidity, governments of other countries are not so forgiving.
Same goes for climbing Uluru. Just boofhead behaviour, I think.


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[biggin]

It must make some of you feel quite superior. Always thinking of others' feelings.
Provided they think as you do, of course.

[incisor]

back to playing the man it seems.

you do realise you have already lost the discussion the moment you do?

obviously not

[biggin]

Another pearl of wisdom.

[bob10]

back to playing the man it seems.

you do realise you have already lost the discussion the moment you do?

obviously not

It was not a contest to be lost. A conversation never is. Until it was turned that way. Still, it was interesting, most people put their views forward, open and honest, and every one deserved to be heard. In that regard, and the fact that the thread lasted as long as it did, gives me confidence at least here we can have these conversations without malice. If I have upset any one with my forthrightness, I apologise. It was not my intention, some times the best of intentions go astray. To my regret, I feel this conversation will still be a hot topic in 100 years time. And that is a pity.

[rangieman]

It was not a contest to be lost. A conversation never is. Until it was turned that way. Still, it was interesting, most people put their views forward, open and honest, and every one deserved to be heard. In that regard, and the fact that the thread lasted as long as it did, gives me confidence at least here we can have these conversations without malice. If I have upset any one with my forthrightness, I apologise. It was not my intention, some times the best of intentions go astray. To my regret, I feel this conversation will still be a hot topic in 100 years time. And that is a pity.

Well put:thumbsup:

[DiscoMick]

It was not a contest to be lost. A conversation never is. Until it was turned that way. Still, it was interesting, most people put their views forward, open and honest, and every one deserved to be heard. In that regard, and the fact that the thread lasted as long as it did, gives me confidence at least here we can have these conversations without malice. If I have upset any one with my forthrightness, I apologise. It was not my intention, some times the best of intentions go astray. To my regret, I feel this conversation will still be a hot topic in 100 years time. And that is a pity.

Yes, well said. I hope my stating my opinions hasn't upset anyone, even if we disagree. Not meant to be personal, just adult discussion.

[Pickles2]

This is an emotional subject, many opinions, so obviously, we're not all going to agree with each other, and, surprise surprise,......We didn't, which is all good, and to be expected, unless....ya "play the man".
No excuse for that at all, after all it's only a difference of opinion, & I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, in ANY discussion.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the thread, and will continue to so so, should it continue, and whilst I still have the same opinion, I have some more understanding of the views of others.
Pickles.

[pop058]

This is an emotional subject, many opinions, so obviously, we're not all going to agree with each other, and, surprise surprise,......We didn't, which is all good, and to be expected, unless....ya "play the man".
No excuse for that at all, after all it's only a difference of opinion, & I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, in ANY discussion.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the thread, and will continue to so so, should it continue, and whilst I still have the same opinion, I have some more understanding of the views of others.
Pickles.

:thumbsup:

This I believe this is the best outcome we can realistically hope for.

[bob10]

This is an emotional subject, many opinions, so obviously, we're not all going to agree with each other, and, surprise surprise,......We didn't, which is all good, and to be expected, unless....ya "play the man".
No excuse for that at all, after all it's only a difference of opinion, & I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me, in ANY discussion.
Nevertheless, I enjoyed the thread, and will continue to so so, should it continue, and whilst I still have the same opinion, I have some more understanding of the views of others.
Pickles.

Being asked in an arrogant way, " answer the question", after resurrecting 18th century thinking , is enough to make any one who has been trying to explain the complexities of modern Aboriginal life, in a respectful way, in todays' environment, well, just shake the head. I have noticed this happens in a few of your posts, and when challenged, you use the play the man card. I have Promised myself I will not fall for that again.

[Chops]

Having met Pickles, arrogant is the last thing I'd think of him as.
Personally, I think a "push" for a relevant answer is warranted. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions as well.
In order for us to "understand" where your all coming from, we need answers to various questions we may have. To be simply told "no you cant do it", (whatever that may be, not just this case), just doesn't cut it. Anyone with half a brain will want to know the "why-for's" etc, just out of pure curiosities sake if nothing else.


Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.
So, if people on this forum are able to teach us, even some of the customs/culture, reasoning's for certain things so we understand better, wouldn't that be a better thing(?). Just because you give what you think is a relevant answer to something, doesn't mean we'll understand straight up either. It doesn't mean we don't care.

[bob10]

Having met Pickles, arrogant is the last thing I'd think of him as.
Personally, I think a "push" for a relevant answer is warranted. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions as well.
In order for us to "understand" where your all coming from, we need answers to various questions we may have. To be simply told "no you cant do it", (whatever that may be, not just this case), just doesn't cut it. Anyone with half a brain will want to know the "why-for's" etc, just out of pure curiosities sake if nothing else.


Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.
So, if people on this forum are able to teach us, even some of the customs/culture, reasoning's for certain things so we understand better, wouldn't that be a better thing(?). Just because you give what you think is a relevant answer to something, doesn't mean we'll understand straight up either. It doesn't mean we don't care.

The question must be asked with respect. And with respect , I don't think anyone on the forum can answer the question. Dig deeper, find the answer you are after, if this thread has sparked your interest, I have achieved the desired result. Pickles is your mate, not mine.

[Blknight.aus]

Some may perceive this to be arrogant, ignorant, whatever, for wanting this info, but by not giving the answers, this works in reverse as well.
As an Australian, I'm happy and more than willing, given the chance, to learn what I can about aboriginal culture. At 16 when I was there, the old people we spoke with were great to us, and one thing they said, was come back an see it properly.
I've got no idea what exactly "properly" is, but I'm guessing its probably mingling with the old guys, being shown some guidance around the area and the culture too I would hope.

cut some bits.

touristy is how I did it the first time. end effect, yeah, its a rock, It was there, I climbed it honestly the views are better from the bridge the dam or the wave.

properly the second.

There is only one way to climb the rock. If you do or did it the tourist way you haven't climbed it. If you want to climb it just cause its there you probably don't deserve to climb it.

[bob10]

cut some bits.

touristy is how I did it the first time. end effect, yeah, its a rock, It was there, I climbed it honestly the views are better from the bridge the dam or the wave.

properly the second.

There is only one way to climb the rock. If you do or did it the tourist way you haven't climbed it. If you want to climb it just cause its there you probably don't deserve to climb it.

Finally some one gets it. Well done Dave. Thank you.

[Pickles2]

Being asked in an arrogant way, " answer the question", after resurrecting 18th century thinking , is enough to make any one who has been trying to explain the complexities of modern Aboriginal life, in a respectful way, in todays' environment, well, just shake the head. I have noticed this happens in a few of your posts, and when challenged, you use the play the man card. I have Promised myself I will not fall for that again.
I have NEVER played the man.
"Arrogant"?!!,....As a well know person once said, "You cannot be serious". In this case I simply asked you a question, which either you would not, didn't like, or could not, answer. it was actually quite a simple question relating to a sign, and the Aboriginal interpretation of "No".
You are the one who "played the man",..and I quote,...."Troll"..simply for asking you a question......and it was you who was accused of "playing the man" in this thread, by forum members, not me. If you don't remember that, go through the thread & you'll find that to be the case.
Like I said, we have different opinions, NEVER a problem to me.
You have a habit of putting up "controversial" threads,, which invite comment,...nothing wrong with that at all, but it does not give you an excuse to use the terminology, or make personal derogatory comments against anyone,when discussion does not go as you would like, as you did.
If you put up other threads with which i disagree, I will say so, as you will with me.
Pickles.

[Blknight.aus]

Finally some one gets it. Well done Dave. Thank you.

Its always been my stand point.


the biggest issue around it is intonation.

unfortunately proper "tribal" language does not easily translate to english. even dialect to dialect is in some cases difficult. even over coming the language barrier too many "proper" indigenous are besmirched by the reactions and perceptions created by their interbred brethren. The opinions of the valued few swamped, mired and lost in the torrent of overwhelming opinion.

Its a grey area thing. and in this particular grey area until the general populous of the "white fella" can be convinced that the opinion and belief of the few that still hold to the true ways should still be respected. Unfortunately while the perceived typical aboriginal is as it is.. it aint going to happen.

[Pickles2]

:thumbsup:

This I believe this is the best outcome we can realistically hope for.
Thanks, that's what i thought, still do.
Pickles.

[Blknight.aus]

So, with this as my experience, can you tell me who decided that we (any non-Aboriginal) cant traverse the rock please. But, just so you understand where I'm coming from, it feels to me, as if someone has come from a distant place and said to the locals,,, "No, it has to be stopped, and here's why". So somewhat confused, I see it as the locals, who welcomed us with open arms, now don't have open arms. I don't understand, I'm sorry.
As I said in my earlier post, respect is everything, and next time I'm there, I'd love to be able to take my partner up there, preferably with a guide that can tell/explain to us what we want to know.
I'm hoping when we travel we will have the opportunity to be welcomed to the country and spend time with "the locals", and share in their culture.

Chops,

is this your original question you want answered?

if so...

its not easy. for the purists sorry in advance, Im not PC wordsmithing this, read the words as they are intended to be read and not for any offence you might be able to read into them if you go looking for it. And yes vague its only ment to be the dot point brief version

There is no original aboriginal law that states no white man may climb the rock. Whiteman wasnt around when the law was formed.
The original law prohibits the uninitiated or unescorted (thats not quite right but it will do for now) from climbing and it means ALL people not just the white fellas, uninitiated or unescorted blacks are just as unwelcome.
theres a hierarchy of access I dont understand it fully but effectively only elders are permitted into the most sacred areas and others that have been initated to the rock can escort others up the rock. Theres limits to this.
To get escorted up the rock you need to be invited by someone who has been initated up the rock
To get that you need to attend "story time" about the rock
to get that you need to be invited to the tribe.

How did I do it?

I got very lucky. Right place right time a couple of times, got an invite to an initiation and got an invite to sit in on "story time" and got an invite to go up the rock. I still haven't been to the most sacred spots but I don't have any real desire to. Doing so means a higher level of initiation what that requires is not something I'm prepared to commit to.

[Chops]

Thanks Dave, that helps a lot.
Are you able to tell me what the initiations involve at all, as in, are they from "boy to man", or perhaps "man to elder" or something?

[bob10]

Its always been my stand point.


the biggest issue around it is intonation.

unfortunately proper "tribal" language does not easily translate to english. even dialect to dialect is in some cases difficult. even over coming the language barrier too many "proper" indigenous are besmirched by the reactions and perceptions created by their interbred brethren. The opinions of the valued few swamped, mired and lost in the torrent of overwhelming opinion.

Its a grey area thing. and in this particular grey area until the general populous of the "white fella" can be convinced that the opinion and belief of the few that still hold to the true ways should still be respected. Unfortunately while the perceived typical aboriginal is as it is.. it aint going to happen.

Europeans will never understand, they are not wired for it. I have an indigenous grand parent, and I don't really understand. Let me tell you something.I was not told about our indigenous side until I was 40 years old. Any one with colour in their family was not welcome in polite Australian society. Good luck getting a good job, good luck being served in a pub. You belonged on the other side of the tracks. And I'm talking about the 50's and 60's. So those with colour denied it, and pushed that part of their life away. I regret I never had the chance to talk to my Grandmother about her Mother, and their people. She was one of the kindest, welcoming people I have ever met .I had a hint of what was what when, when I was a lad, Nana took in numerous indigenous children, and looked after them as her own. I didn't understand the Aunty system.

And then, there was uncle Graham. Dads brother. Supposedly. He had a great sun tan, tall and thin, Quiet, represented Qld in Aussie rules. It took a while to connect the dots. After I found out the truth, I was angry. Angry at my parents and Aunties and Uncles, angry at bigoted Australian society, angry at myself for not having the courage to chase the truth. I'm still angry, at a society that successfully destroyed an ancient culture through ignorance, hate, and prejudice. Ingrained truths still in Australian society.

Yes, I've seen the side of Aboriginal culture that most of Australian society concentrate on. The fringe dwellers, alcoholics, thieves, and beggars.
What our privileged society can't come to grips with, is that fringe dwellers, alcoholics, thieves and beggars no longer are the domain of Aboriginal Australia alone. That's enough, I'm angry. I am sick and tired of wanting to grab some one by the throat and shake them , when are we ever going to wake up.

[Homestar]

Being asked in an arrogant way, " answer the question", after resurrecting 18th century thinking , is enough to make any one who has been trying to explain the complexities of modern Aboriginal life, in a respectful way, in todays' environment, well, just shake the head. I have noticed this happens in a few of your posts, and when challenged, you use the play the man card. I have Promised myself I will not fall for that again.

Well, you're seeing something I certainly don't here - I don't agree with a lot of what Pickles says - we've has some good robust discussions over the years. One thing I can say is that he never plays the man. No idea how you came to that conclusion from his post at all.

And. Although I don't agree with a lot of people on this forum, I'd still happily sit down and have a beer and a chat with them - including you Bob, you're near the top of my list:). Why does everyone think that someone with a differing opinion can't be their friend?

It would be pretty boring sitting around the campfire if we all agree with each other all the time.

[bob10]

Well, you're seeing something I certainly don't here - I don't agree with a lot of what Pickles says - we've has some good robust discussions over the years. One thing I can say is that he never plays the man. No idea how you came to that conclusion from his post at all.

And. Although I don't agree with a lot of people on this forum, I'd still happily sit down and have a beer and a chat with them - including you Bob, you're near the top of my list:). Why does everyone think that someone with a differing opinion can't be their friend?

It would be pretty boring sitting around the campfire if we all agree with each other all the time.

Good to see you are paying attention. I doubt Mr Pickles would ever play the man. Too much of an Englishman for that. I don't dislike him, but he has that English trait of being as annoying as a single mossie inside your mossie net. Actually I'm warming to him. Like an eccentric uncle. Don't tell him, he might think I like him.

[Pickles2]

Good to see you are paying attention. I doubt Mr Pickles would ever play the man. Too much of an Englishman for that. I don't dislike him, but he has that English trait of being as annoying as a single mossie inside your mossie net. Actually I'm warming to him. Like an eccentric uncle. Don't tell him, he might think I like him.
How could I not agree with that.
Regards, Pickles.