300tdi Defender - Oil pouring out of front sump wading plug

[Tas]

Hi all,

I've recently replaced the head on my 300tdi, and all seemed to be going well until today (150 km since job).

It started leaking oil heavily (almost a steady stream) and it's coming from what I understand is the wading plug at towards the front of the sump. This is without a bolt in there, I haven't got any.

I've seen plenty threads where people are having leaks from the wading plug further back near the bellhousing, but mine just appears to only be at the front.

Thanks for any help.
I wasn't sure to post this in Defenders or Tech Chatter.

[BathurstTom]

Sounds like the oil seal from behind the timing belt pulley?

Tom.

[simmo]

Hi Tas,
that wading plug is in the front timing casing. Best not to drive the the car the toothed belt will be saturated in oil etc.

Possibly the fwd main seal, but you need to take the timing cover off for a look.

not too big a job, to take a look. good luck simmo

[Tas]

Thanks Tom and simmo.

This seems like a silly question, but I can't find any guides in the RAVE manual or online.
Does the viscous fan and crank pulley need to come off to get the timing cover off?
I haven't got the required tools for that, so thought I'd get before getting some.

Also, is it likely this is related to the head problems (and potentially block the way it'd looking) the engine has/is having?
Pretty close to just saying stuff this motor and look for another 300...

[Trout]

Yep the viscous fan and pully need to come off. Just had mine off to do the bearing. Had a fun time getting the nut off the crank pully. No joy with the rattle gun or my battery impact wrench. Ended up getting it with a socket and long bar with a ratchet strap tied to the end and pulling the long bar towards the brush rails :o. For a while I did not think it was ever coming off. 27mm socket and a spanner for the fan hub are all you need. Check the fan bearing while you are there. Seems unlikely that the oil leak would be head related but I am not aware of all the probs you have been having.

[rick130]

Yep, fan off (easy)
Crank pulley off, PAS pump off and swung away, timing cover off, and i'd replace the timing belt, tensioner and idler pulleys, new O ring behind the toothed pulley, (use the solid, Bearmach type, not the OE spot welded ear version) oil seal plus timing cover seal, timing cover gasket and can't recall if i've missed anything, it's been nearly eighteen months since I did one.

[Tas]

Hi guys,
Sorry to dig up my old thread, but it's taken this long to get time to do the job.
I'm half way through replacing everything in a timing belt kit and while it's been a pain the arse, things are progressing.
I was trying to get the oil seal out and noticed this bolt hole pictured appears to have been steered off?
Seems very rough for if it's meant to be this way.

Is this likely the cause of my timing case (massive) oil leak?

See pics here, thanks.
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://imgur.com/HirkKlB)
Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet (http://imgur.com/k2sLbCB)

[workingonit]

Looking at photo in the Haynes manual on page 2B 19.

That looks like a sump bolt hole that is normally blind? Someone used an over length bolt to secure the front of the sump and popped the metal? Or didn't clean the hole before putting the bolt back in?

Right next to this hole is the oil pressure relief valve unit.

Have the pressure relief channels and bolt hole been connected by the damage? Doesn't look like it from the pics, but hard to tell. I'm still thinking the oil seal.

And your sump cover looks partly detached. Is that how you found it? Or as a result of you removing the bolt from the hole in question?

[Tas]

Thanks workingonit. This is the first time I've had a good look around this part of the engine, but given some of the things I've found this isn't surprising.

You're definitely on the right track. I checked underneath and the sump bolt is in there. I don't think the sump cover is loose, there is a ton of gasket sealant that's been squeezed out in the picture. Perhaps overkill here was a factor in the snap off.

I couldn't see any damage that would connect the channels from the outside.

The timing cover is going back on as I type this, so assume I did my first timing job correctly, we should know the cause soon.

[Tas]

Unfortunately we may not know the cause for a while now.
Everything back together, cooling topped up and bled, I try starting the engine and I get nothing but starter.
I'm not sure what's gone wrong. I used a 9m drill bit as most suggest in the left most gear. When putting on the new belt I made sure the woodruff crack was at 12o clock and the arrow was lined up on the cam.
To tighten the crank I had the missus press the brake in 5th.

Also worth noting I had taken off the fuel kill wire as per the guide I was following on LR forums and put it back on before start up.

[workingonit]

Doubt your belt installation is the problem. Being a tooth out it will still run, but you will know its not optimal. I check my timing installation by running the engine without the cover in place - just put everything back on the crankshaft and hand tighten the retaining bolt. With regard to my disco 1 vehicles, I split the plastic cowling down one side so I can remove it without having to crack the radiator hoses every time.

I'm assuming it fired up no problems before doing the work and you mean the starter is turning the engine over, but the engine is not firing. I'd check the wire again to ensure properly connected to the spade - got a volt meter to see if voltage is present in the wire?

Sluggish turnover may mean pressure has time to escape pistons so diesel won't combust. Fresh battery.

[Tas]

Thanks again workingonit, I hope you're right, I was pretty bummed out thinking I stuffed it.
I will get a multimeter on the wire tomorrow and see what the battery is running as well.
The split shroud is a good coolant saving idea, might give that a go if everything turns out hunky dory.
I can take the timing case off, especially if it's still leaking oil, but not sure what I'd look for timing wise other than slack in the belt.

[Blknight.aus]

crack off the injector lines and crank it over if its not spraying/leaking diesel its not a belt issue its a priming or fuel supply issue

first step is to run a hotwire from the battery to the fuel pump soelnoid.

[Tas]

Alright fellas, I tried your suggestions this evening.
There was diesel spraying out the injector pipes, not looking good for my timing job.
I checked the battery and it was reading 12.4v, likely a little slow from all the cranking but not low enough I would think. It's in charge either way.

So then, more info on my timing job.
I followed this guide in lr4x4 (http://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/22319-300tdi-timing-belt-replacement/). And pretty much to the letter.
I know it's a lot less detailed than your guide blknight, unfortunately I didn't find yours until after the new belt was on.

Some points where it mightve stuffed up.

* This guide doesn't use any paint pen marks, relies on the timing pin (I was using a drill bit)
* I undid the crank nut using the less approved breaker bar on chassis rail method.
* I followed the guide and put the crank nut back on to turn the engine to TDC, but then was stuck with no way to get it off again.
I ended up using the timing pin and the compression to crack the loose (I realise that's an awful way to do it, in hind sight)
* I tried manually turning the crank after trying to start the engine a while. Took the fuel kill wire off and got about 3/4 rotation and then felt hard compression but I couldn't move it any further.

Quite a few novice mistakes that look like they costed me the job, but at least I can think back to where I went wrong I suppose...

Any advice where to go from here?
Thanks, I know I must be coming off as a shocking weekend warrior

[workingonit]

I assume you had the pin in the injector before removing the old belt. Did you also put a pin into the flywheel before removing the belt?

Your reference instructions say to have the woodroffe key on the crank 12 noon, which is correct - but I'm not sure how approximate that is. To be sure I always put the pin in the flywheel as per Haynes and other sources (or flexplate in my case, being auto).

Having a pin in the flywheel would have made it easier for you to take the nose bolt out after rotating the timing belt and gear assembly into place.

[Tas]

That guide does only use the woodruff key, no mention of the flywheel pin. I have heard of it, but saw a few posts on here of people who thought the smaller slot might snap with a breaker on the crank, especially with a home made pin (I. E. drill bit).

None the less, I will get one and try again.
To clarify in sorting out the timing,
If the flywheel pin, injector pump pin, crank woodruff, and the camshaft arrows are all in the correct placement - the timing would be correct to put the belt on?

[bee utey]

I would have thought you could tighten/loosen the crank bolt with the gearbox in 4th gear high range. The flywheel timing pin is really critical for getting accurate timing but shouldn't be used to hold the crank for bolt tightening. You'll also have to double check that the camshaft hasn't shifted relative to the crank. With the rocker cover off the valves on no. 4 cylinder should be just rocking from exhaust to inlet at no.1 cylinder's TDC position. Then identify the correct cam gear mark and align it.

[SSmith]

* I tried manually turning the crank after trying to start the engine a while. Took the fuel kill wire off and got about 3/4 rotation and then felt hard compression but I couldn't move it any further.


I dont like the way that reads.....

If the timing is far enough out the pistons will hit the valves.

Sent from my SM-G800F using AULRO mobile app

[workingonit]

Like SSmith, I also wondered at the meaning of not being able to hand rotate a full revolution - just baulking at the high pressure moment or something else obstructive? I'm unclear on whether there has been complete rotation, on the starter as mentioned earlier, or any other way? Sounds like you have fuel flow, but was that achieved by rotating the injector pump, therefore the entire motor, or was the fuel made to flow by using the lift pump only. Need some clarification.

I was not meaning that you use the flywheel pin to do the first crack of the nose bolt, nor for the final tightening.

Rather, after removing the timing cover, before removing the belt, you will want to reinsert the nose bolt by hand so you can position the whole belt train TDC. The only torque tightening the bolt should be subject would be a little more than the force required to rotate the engine components - not much.

Once you have positioned the belt train TDC then insert the flywheel pin (further slight adjustment will probably be required to seat the pin in the slot properly). Once the pin is in place it will provide enough resistance to allow you to wind the crank nose bolt counter clockwise to remove it without disturbing alignment. Then, with the additional pinning of the injector pump, you should be safe to remove the belt, marking the position of the old belt and transferring it to the new. And of course checking the cam alignment in the process, which should be OK if the engine was running well before the work commenced.

The position of the woodroffe key simply reflects the work of the flywheel pin (unless someone has ruined the original woodroffe slot and cut a new one elsewhere on the shaft :(). So its pin the injector, pin the flywheel TDC number one, check the cam. Install belt.

Just before installing the belt I first partly extracted the crank cam by about a quarter of its length. I then start the belt install at the injector, then across to the cam, having the belt about one third on. To hold the belt in this position I use an engineers clamp, or buy one of those mini vice grip kits from Supercheap. Then proceed with the belt down through the tensioner to the crank cam then around back through the tensioner. Once all lined up I remove the clamps and begin to push more of the belt on, incrementally moving the crank cam back in.

To test my work I do not reassemble everything. Rather, once the belt is on and tensioned I then reinstall the harmonic balancer, washer and bolt hand tight (no cover). Running the engine for 20-30 seconds should give you an indication all is OK - you will see the belt does not run very fast compared to the serpentine belt because the crank pully is much smaller than the harmonic pully . If not OK then much easier at this point of the work to try again with alignment.

[Tas]

I appreciate the level of detail, thanks workingonit.
I have ordered an aftermarket flywheel pin and hope to remedy my stuff up over the long weekend.

As for the resistance on the breaker bar, it could indeed be a cylinder, although I would be really surprised if it was possible to screw up the timing that badly when I kept the woodruff at 12 and had the injector pin in.
I don't think the engine moved at all via the ignition, sounded all starter.

[workingonit]

Correct to understand you used the starter to undo the nose bolt ie 'breaker bar on chassis'?

Not familiar with defender flywheel so not sure if teeth are cut into solid blank, or has a tooth ring pressed/welded on.

Fact that you hear only starter whirring(?) indicates not throwing out to engage flywheel, or worse, is throwing out but teeth stripped off flywheel so no engagement or flywheel tooth ring has come partly off?

I had a Ford auto where the tooth ring was welded onto the flex plate by three small spot welds! A weld finally broke under the thrust action of the starter motor, resulting in part of the tooth ring moving off line so the starter could not reach it. When I went to start the vehicle all I got was the whirring of the starter motor and no engine turning. I first fixed it by replicating the welding Ford had done. After the second breakage I added my own more substantial welds and had no more problems in that area.

See if you can take an inspection plate off the bell housing and watch the flywheel teeth as they pass for damaged teeth or dislocation of tooth ring.

[steveG]

IMO it's absolutely essential to manually rotate the crank at least 2 full turns and then recheck timing after doing any belt/chain timing job. Not as critical with a fully gear driven drivetrain as you're not dealing with tensioners etc.
It's quite easy to have a belt slightly out of alignment which will drop tension when it runs - potentially jumping a tooth etc.
I've had some setups that we're sort of half a tooth out and the only way to get correct timing was to set them up what seemed like a tooth advanced. Once it was all loaded up after rotating everything was correct. Just doing it without rotating by hand after would have resulted in it being a tooth retarded.
Hopefully you haven't messed it up completely and bent pushrods or damaged rockers. I'd be pulling the rocker cover at this point to check in case you need to order parts. Good thing with a 300tdi you're unlikely to damage valves/pistons.

Good luck :)

Steve

[Tas]

Today my timings pins arrived and I was able to get the timing cover off after work before the rain came.
What greeted me explains the problem, I would say.

With the crack woodruff at 12, the camshaft mark is at roughly 2 o clock, where as the mark on the casting means it it meant to be at 7ish. So very far out...
The injector is also out and the pin opening is at 5ish, with it meant to be at 11 as I understand it.

Tomorrow I will find the correct notch for the flywheel pin and check the teeth as workingonit suggested. I will also take the rocker cover off, but I would hope as it never started it shouldn't have damaged any parts - but will check nonetheless.

Now just do much sure I don't make any more mess of this;
To correct the camshaft and injector pump, do I simply take the timing belt off and rotate the gears independently until the mark lines with the casing arrow and the injector pump pin fits the pump lock?

Thanks again fellas, I appreciate all the help and putting up with me. I still believe it's better to stuff something up a couple of times but learn how to do it yourself for life.

[steveG]

Personally, I'd pull the rocker shaft and rockers off next, and remove the pushrods. Makes it easier to turn the cam, and means you're not going to be pushing valves into pistons as you try and turn the cam etc.
Since the timing was that far out and you've cranked it on the starter I think you definitely need to check the pushrods, so may as well just pull the lot now and start from scratch.

Steve

[SSmith]

The timing marks line up every second revolution of the crank. Sounds like you are simply on the off cycle.

From here i would do as others have suggested, remove and inspect the pushrods, set the cam timing with the pushrods out and reassemble.

The fact it didnt start does not mean pistons did not meet valvess, they just did so more slowly.

Sent from my SM-G800F using AULRO mobile app

[Tas]

Okay guys, I've made some progress as I was keen to correct my mistakes.
I took off the rocker cover, and I seem to have gotten away without damaging anything. All push rods are visually straight and no cracks on the rockers.
Don't think I'm lucky though, I was greeted with a huge amount of milky oil cover (http://i.imgur.com/HyEKuOK.jpg) and rockers (http://i.imgur.com/AZuzFUa) pics.

I should explain that the head was warped and recently replaced by mechanics. It's only been 100 km since the job, so I hope this is left over and will clear up. Either way, this post is about the timing so I'll focus on getting the engine running.

I will be as detailed as I can, so you fellas can pick up if Ive done something else wrong before I crank it with the starter again.

First, I tried to get another rotation in as per SSmiths advice, but couldn't get any further with my small bar and was worried I was forcing the cylinders into the valves.

I removed the camshaft and then the timing belt. Turning the crank was very hard the first rotation, but I turned it 3 rotations and it feels more normal now, but I should note I only have a 2 foot 1/2 inch breaker bar.
The flywheel pin is fully screwed into the smaller of the notches as seen here (http://i.imgur.com/YgeBKSu).

I then rotated the cam gear on its own by hand clockwise until it met the casting mark. I rotated the injector pump also on its own and lined up the locking hole with the camera on my phone and the pin is in there snug.
As seen here (http://i.imgur.com/jneHuZT).

Am I correct in saying that as of that picture, everything is reset and back in the correct place for the belt to be put on?

Thanks again.

[jboot51]

You should be good to go.
Make sure the pump pulley is fully
Clockwise as you offer up the belt.
It will rotate anticlock as you tension the belt.

[Tas]

So it started, huzzah.
When putting on the belt I undid the 3 smaller bolts on the pump so the pulley can rotate to take the slack, as per LR toolbox's video suggestion.
I torqued it using a click wrench, not ideal I know, but I didn't feel it worth buying another expensive tool for.

I rotated the crank twice, the cam was half a tooth out so I did it again - not taking any chances this time.
Second time was just right, pump pin slid easily all the way in.

Doing the valve clearances took a long time and at the start there was a loud metallic sound. Not sure what it was but couldn't find any damage.
I did however find number 7 cam follower was a bit bent out of shape, although the push rod seems to still fit (pic) (http://i.imgur.com/PTn9DRy.jpg).
Number 1 adjuster thread was also a bit warn and couldn't be tightened properly... I imagine it's hard to track down a single replacement.

Anyhow, with the timing cover and fan belt off I nervously turned the key and it started after a little hick up. I only ran it for 10 seconds but sounds okay... A little hard to listen for an off noise in such a loud engine bay, but I think it's been saved.
Tomorrow I'll finish putting it together and see if the oil leak has been stopped that started this ever expanding problem.

Thanks for the help fellas - a shout out to workingonit.

[Tas]

Hi guys.
It's completely back together now. First start was a bit rough, it stalled after 5 seconds.
Running okay now, but I'm a little worried about a faint metalic tapping sound, mainly that the valves are hitting.

I reordered a video - a little hard to hear the noise though.
https://vid.me/GOYx

Can anyone pick up on a bad sound, or am I just over thinking what's a bloody noisy engine?
Thanks

Edit:
Tried to drive it up our long steep driveway and it was really struggling to keep revs and tonnes of black smoke pouring out.
Timing related, or perhaps more to do with the head history (mechanics months ago sent it back to us with creamy oil blaming a not-tested cracked block).

[jboot51]

A bit hard to tell what the noise is in video.
Had a similar noise recently on a 300 tdi and it was a lash cap missing from #2 exhaust valve.
You can buy the lash adjusters.

[jboot51]

Try this
Land Rover Parts - ROCKER ARM ADJUSTING SCREW - L/ROVER 300 TDI (http://www.roverparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/332)

[SSmith]

@ 13 sec the engine lifting bracket is rattling....
Apart from that, it seems like a pretty unhealthy TDI.

Id be trucking it to a trusted mechanic (probably not the one who did the head)

[workingonit]

How well did the vehicle run before starting this work?

Lack of power and smokes badly - timing still out? Valve not sealing?

Probably not your issue, however, the only time I've lacked power in a Tdi was when a line at the turbo was knocked off - from memory there are two line at the turbo and I think it was the vacuum line from turbo to fuel pump(?) that was knocked off at the turbo end while doing other work. Regardless of which line it was check at the turbo that these two lines are is still attached or not got a holes - from memory the one that was giving me trouble was tucked in behind the turbo and a little difficult to access. I think what was happening was that no vacuum was going to the wastegate controller, so the gate was not opening and the turbo was not spooling up to pump compressed air into the cylinders to aid combustion. The vehicle felt way underpowered - it would reach road speed but very slowly - in other words running as naturally aspirated rather than turbo charged. I don't recall getting loads of smoke.

[Tas]

It acted similarly before with a lack of power (and no turbo spool). Cleared up after 20 km with the only thing I did was pour in some injector cleaner.
It drove great for about 120 km until the crank seal started leaking oil at a rate of a litre an hour if not more (the reason this thread was started).

Seems unlikely injector cleaner would do anything this time. All the lash caps where there when I did the adjustments yesterday.
I also thought it was the loose engine hook, but I can still hear a metalic sound when holding it. I can be best heard with an ear near the intake manifold.

I'm sure I did the timing right this time, I must've rotated and checked the pins double digits - unless the belt somehow slipped since putting the cover on...

Thanks for the link jboot, I've ordered a new adjustor screw. It's possible that number 1 rocker has been thrown completely out of wack because of it... But to cause no power and black smoke? I'll pull the cover and see what the clearance is now as - 5 km

Perhaps the engine is just buggered and wants throwing out or a rebuild... Theres been a fair bit of oil in the intercooler - a sign of a tired engine if the breather is spitting out that much as I understand it?

[steveG]

300tdi needs boost to allow the injection pump to really fuel up (the small hose from manifold to the IP is so it can sense boost pressure), so if you're not getting boost you shouldn't be getting enough fuel to make lots of black smoke. Unless of course you're not getting enough air into the engine, in which case even a small amount of fuel won't burn properly.

I'd pull the intercooler hose off the inlet manifold and take it for a quick spin to see if that changes how it behaves. If the black smoke stops or reduces you know there's a restriction upstream in the hoses/intercooler/turbo or air filter etc.
If you're concerned about driving it with that hose off then just pull the hoses and work through those components making sure that nothing is blocked/restricted. Good opportunity to give the turbo compressor a spin/wriggle to make sure that seems OK.

Oil in the intercooler previously might just be blowby from a glazed engine that hasn't had enough hard work.

Steve

[workingonit]

How many kilometers has the vehicle done overall?

What sort of fuel consumption have you been getting?

Have you regularly checked oil levels? Level been rising instead of static or falling?

To confirm, you are not getting turbo spool?

[Tas]

Okay, so it has 375xxxkm on the clock. I don't know the history of the car, but I do know in the past year it's been sold twice... Never a good sign.

Interesting you ask about the oil level. The crank seal leak this thread was started over was bad, and I lost everything in the engine twice, but when I checked it after doing the timing and seals it was about 10mm over full (on a slight hill).

I took off the intercooler top hose, was bloody loud but had no power at all, couldn't even pull out from the slight hill it's parked on.

Can't say for sure if the turbo is spooling or not, but it doesn't sound like it. I took a video while revving to 2k.
Be warned, it sounds shocking.
https://vid.me/EvHE

Thanks again.

[workingonit]

375 thousand is still a good engine if generally looked after.

Hard to say where to from here.

Intent of the questions about fuel economy and oil levels is to determine if you have diesel leaking into your sump ie a leaking lift pump. Don't know what others think about the rate of your leaking - it seems a lot to me for a worn seal, unless the machine components are firing the oil directly at the worn seal - if you are claiming a loss of about a litre an hour(?) and your dip stick is not retreating then you are filling up from somewhere. I have a tractor that at one stage was getting diesel into the sump, stick level went up, and as soon as the fluid level reached the bottom of the cylinders the engine lost power, almost coming to a halt, and smoking. My guess is that 10mm above the full is not going to be a problem - although you could drain some oil and see if the engine improves.

Can't get the video link to work.

So you could not observe forced air coming from the turbo? Can the lever rod that operates the turbo gate be moved by hand - just in case the vacuum sensor, that normally moves the lever, has split.

[steveG]

Was it still pouring out black smoke with the intercooler hose off?
I'd have expected it to run like a normal 300tdi just pre-boost ie gutless but no significant smoke.

Steve

[justinc]

That click and pulsing thump thump thump is most likely still valve clearances. So they are .208mm (.008") inlet and exhaust, hot or cold. (I do mine warm)

Also IF the camshaft is still out of time a notch then the vehicle will run, however there will be a small but noisy tack tack tack as a piston just kisses a valve. Sounds very similar to the brake vacuum pump failure noise too... I have seen this personally and I didn't believe it possible until I found the cause.

That water in the oil is of a concern, are you certain it was from a head issue? I have seen several with perforated lower cylinder bores over the years... a sump full of water and a perfectly OK head and gasket... :(:(:(

JC

[Tas]

I will check the valve clearances again when I get home from work. The caps were there 3 km ago when I did it after the timing, but the busted tread on the adjustor mightve moved.
I'll also have a look at the turbo itself.

As for the watery oil - it's interesting you bring it up Justin. The mechanics that did the head panned it off as a cracked block and refused any refunds of the 3000 bucks.
I've since had the block dye tested and that showed nothing wrong. I couldn't afford any more in depth tests at the time.
I've been wanting to send it to you Justin, just a matter how to get it down to Hobart from Burnie area. I've also been eyeing off a replacement engine from the 300tdi discos you have on gumtree.

Thanks again guys, I'll try tonpost the results by tonight

[Tas]

Righto, so I took of the rocker cover and I'd lost two caps in the 15 minutes it's been ran since last adjusting them.
The adjustor with the warn thread had the nut right at the top and the cap was next to the push rod. This is number 1.
The other cap missing was number 6, the same that has the slightly damaged cam follower (pic earlier in the thread).

The rockers had a lot of water droplets.

I reckon I've found the cause of no power. I'll get a nut for the adjustor tomorrow and see how that goes. I had some more lash caps but I can't bloody find them..

I'm am pretty worried about the state of the overall engine. Justin - is a perforated bore something that needs a reselving? May not be worth fixing if the entire engine has so many issues. Could be easier and cheaper to find another engine.