D2a TD5 Over Heating

[TAHAIC]

I just fitted a Madman and I am very happy that I did. When I put my foot down mildly (just enough to maintain my speed) going up a mild to moderate grade that's 800 meters or longer type thing, my coolant temp goes up from 107C to 111C and Madman starts alarming!

I have been driving around allot harder than this before I installed my Madman with no issue of the stock temp gauge getting too hot but obviously there is problem! That's scary!

I bought the car last year about 10 months ago, I have been all over it and sorted most things out. It came from a 1 owner and has a full service history which shows that it did over heat and the owner said the engine management system shut it down in August 2012.

It was towed in and repaired at its normal place of service by an land rover specialist company. Over heating was due water pump and power steering dog drives sheared off (what ever that is) and secondary fault at thermostat. New power steering pump, water pump and thermostat fitted.

Then in August 2013 radiator and hoses replaced due to over heating.

When I bought the vehicle in November 2015 I did heaps of things to it including an engine oil flush using cost effective maintenance products plus I dropped the sump and check oil pump bolt so I know the engine is clean. I also did a complete coolant flush and auto mega oil flush with filter etc. and heaps of other things.

Has anyone got any idea why my temp is going up to 111C - when it does and the alarm goes off I back off the gas immediately and it cools back down to 107C in a minute or 2. It would probably go higher if I continued to keep my foot on the gas all though I haven't been game enough to try that yet.

Any help or input is appreciated thank you all.

TAHAIC

[SPROVER]

I just fitted a Madman and I am very happy that I did. When I put my foot down mildly (just enough to maintain my speed) going up a mild to moderate grade that's 800 meters or longer type thing, my coolant temp goes up from 107C to 111C and Madman starts alarming!

I have been driving around allot harder than this before I installed my Madman with no issue of the stock temp gauge getting too hot but obviously there is problem! That's scary!

I bought the car last year about 10 months ago, I have been all over it and sorted most things out. It came from a 1 owner and has a full service history which shows that it did over heat and the owner said the engine management system shut it down in August 2012.

It was towed in and repaired at its normal place of service by an land rover specialist company. Over heating was due water pump and power steering dog drives sheared off (what ever that is) and secondary fault at thermostat. New power steering pump, water pump and thermostat fitted.

Then in August 2013 radiator and hoses replaced due to over heating.

When I bought the vehicle in November 2015 I did heaps of things to it including an engine oil flush using cost effective maintenance products plus I dropped the sump and check oil pump bolt so I know the engine is clean. I also did a complete coolant flush and auto mega oil flush with filter etc. and heaps of other things.

Has anyone got any idea why my temp is going up to 111C - when it does and the alarm goes off I back off the gas immediately and it cools back down to 107C in a minute or 2. It would probably go higher if I continued to keep my foot on the gas all though I haven't been game enough to try that yet.

Any help or input is appreciated thank you all.

TAHAIC
I wouldn't call 107 cool. Are you sure you haven't got a blocked radiator or thermostat? That is running way to hot. Normal running temp for my td5 is about 85.

[thai_tiger]

^+1 also check viscous fan

[sierrafery]

Try to stop the viscous fan with a rolled newspaper when the engine is hot...if you can put new one, at 110*C the electric fan is supposed to kick in to help cooling so if it didnt you should see if that works or not or check the madman's accuracy with thermometer, the original gauge is going to the middle at 70 an stays there untill 120 so quite useless

[justinc]

Is this cyl head temp or coolant temp?

[TAHAIC]

Is this cyl head temp or coolant temp?

Its coolant temp.

[TAHAIC]

I wouldn't call 107 cool. Are you sure you haven't got a blocked radiator or thermostat? That is running way to hot. Normal running temp for my td5 is about 85.

Yes you are right, too hot I agree!

[Mark C]

Does the displayed temperature drop when the engine stops running ? (with the key in the accessory position)

[TAHAIC]

Try to stop the viscous fan with a rolled newspaper when the engine is hot...if you can put new one, at 110*C the electric fan is supposed to kick in to help cooling so if it didnt you should see if that works or not or check the madman's accuracy with thermometer, the original gauge is going to the middle at 70 an stays there untill 120 so quite useless

I haven't tried the rolled up news paper yet but the viscous fan turns easily with engine off and bearing feels smooth.

The thermo fan kicks in at 110C ? really ? Wow that seems too hot to me! I checked it this morning driving to work (about 50km down the highway) and after 10 min or so it was still not on but when I got to work it was on. Temp was still around the 107C mark on madman so that seems to indicate that the madman temp sensor is correct (round about). Would be good to chek it against a Nanocom.

Totally agree that the stock gauge is fairly useless!

[TAHAIC]

Does the displayed temperature drop when the engine stops running ? (with the key in the accessory position)

Yes it does.

[justinc]

Where is the madman sender fitted?

Jc

[TAHAIC]

I'll try the rolled up news paper thing on the viscous fan but I think I need to look at the thermostat and radiator cores to start with.

Thermostat was replaced 4 years ago now - how long do they last?

I suspect I have had this overheating problem since I bought it 10 months ago - there was evidence of coolant escaping from the bleeder screw. So it might not be the thermostat.

New radiator 3 years ago but it could still have some blocked cores I guess.

I also have an excess fuel useage problem of about 15-17lt/100km and I suspect that its either the ACE pump/system or the power steering loading up the motor. I am only guessing and have not had time to follow that up properly. But I just had the thought that if the motor is getting loaded up perhaps its also contributing to the over heating.

[TAHAIC]

Where is the madman sender fitted?

Jc


115046

[justinc]

Ah ok so same place as factory one. Thanks ☺.

Jc

[TAHAIC]

Try to stop the viscous fan with a rolled newspaper when the engine is hot...if you can put new one, at 110*C the electric fan is supposed to kick in to help cooling so if it didnt you should see if that works or not or check the madman's accuracy with thermometer, the original gauge is going to the middle at 70 an stays there untill 120 so quite useless

I just tried the rolled up news paper and it stopped the viscous fan. Should it be hard to stop when the engine is hot? and how hard is it to stop when working properly with a rolled up news paper?

[Mark C]

what is the reading with engine running and when not running ? Are you running the earth (both for the unit and the earth on the sensor from a common earth on the engine block ? ) What is the temperature range of the sensor - it should be a VDO sensor and 120C? and is it set up correctly in the madman unit?

[sierrafery]

I just tried the rolled up news paper and it stopped the viscous fan. Should it be hard to stop when the engine is hot? and how hard is it to stop when working properly with a rolled up news paper?
When the engine is hot(thermostat open) the fan must be locked solid so it should not be stoppable with a rolled newspaper.... put a new one cos this failure is common and causes overheating as the fan is not pulling the air as it should

[TAHAIC]

Should I buy a new viscous fan or should I spend the money on an electric fan or fans? Whats the best thing to do here?

[justinc]

Viscous. 100%. Just don't buy a cheapy.

Jc

[sierrafery]

+1^^^, i tried electric and at above 25*C ambient pressure is too weak for the job, had to remove it and put back the viscous

[TAHAIC]

Viscous. 100%. Just don't buy a cheapy.

Jc

So does that mean don't buy a Britpart - only Genuine?

I can get genuine in AU for $395 (+ postage)

Britpart from the UK for $140 (including postage)

OEM from UK for $246 (including postage)

all of which have a 2 year warranty



and then there is - which only have 12 months warranty

Allmakes $146 from UK (including postage)

Bearmach $146 from UK (including postage)



And there's also Borg Warner for $525 from AU (+postage)


Who makes the genuine one?

[DazzaTD5]

Viscous. 100%. Just don't buy a cheapy.

Jc

Agreed, Genuine while expensive it will work correctly and last another 10 - 15 years as the last one did. The genuine one is also a one piece unit as in viscous and fan.

Others with experience may recommend alternative brands, I just wouldnt go with a Britpart one.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

So does that mean don't buy a Britpart - only Genuine?

I can get genuine in AU for $395 (+ postage)

Britpart from the UK for $140 (including postage)

OEM from UK for $246 (including postage)

all of which have a 2 year warranty



and then there is - which only have 12 months warranty

Allmakes $146 from UK (including postage)

Bearmach $146 from UK (including postage)



And there's also Borg Warner for $525 from AU (+postage)


Who makes the genuine one?

I'd go Gen.
I think from memory the genuine is a Borg Warner.

Regards
Daz

P.S You are in Perth? try Rovacraft, they will likely have a genuine in stock ready to collect and I'm sure for round the same dollars.

[sierrafery]

+1 for genuine but if it seems too expensive IMO the only acceptable alternative is OEM... any other beside the fact that they doesnt lock when they should might be dangerous too cos the blades can fail from the unit and ruin things around there.

[TAHAIC]

Thermostat was replaced 4 years ago now - how long do they last?



And is there any benefit in putting in a lower temp thermostat with the TD5?

[DazzaTD5]

I generally advise changing the thermostat (amongst other items) out round that 100K, so 4 years if it was me, I'd be changing it and the hoses attached too it while you have the viscous fan off.

Stock TD5, no reason to change from the standard thermostat.

Regards
Daz

[CU55TM Disco]

Hope it was a genuine thermostat, britpart thermostat I fitted was utter junk, stuck shut out of the box, caused similar issues to what u are having.

Lucky I fitted my madman a few months later and was alerted to the problem or could have been by by td5...

I'd start with the thermostat, double check its working correctly, on the bench with a jig of boiling water, or, check your radiator temp from left to right. When my thermostat was stuck, one side of radiator hot, other side cold as charity, no flue across radiator as no flow through thermostat!!!

Also, bearmach, allmakes, britpart, ALL the same junk... Do not use, they can't even make an o ring that doesn't fail, what chance do they have of making something with moving parts?!?

[kelvo]

I'd go Gen.
I think from memory the genuine is a Borg Warner.

Regards
Daz

Your memory is correct, Borg Warner made the Td5 viscous fan for LR.

I got mine from here PGG500340 | COOLING FAN & VISCOUS UNIT TD5 + PUMA DEFENDER - DISCOVERY 2 | Eurospare | Discovery 2 - 1999 to 2004 | Britcar (UK) Ltd (http://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/449475/0/cooling_fan__amp__viscous_unit_td5___puma_defender ___discovery_2)

It even has the LR badge moulded on a fan blade.

[TAHAIC]

what is the reading with engine running and when not running ? Are you running the earth (both for the unit and the earth on the sensor from a common earth on the engine block ? ) What is the temperature range of the sensor - it should be a VDO sensor and 120C? and is it set up correctly in the madman unit?

The reading is the same when running and then turning the engine off. I am running the earths into a single 1.5mm^2 wire to the front of the head (not the block) as per the Madman instructions and because the temp sensor return path is via the head.

The temp sensor brand and model/type is somewhat unknown, it was supplied by Madman AUS and the sensor response curve is now questionable. I sent an email to Madman and they responded with instruction to re-calibrate the sender with user defined response curve data, which I did but this has now made it worse - it is now at 115C.

Madman is being quite helpful in responding to my emails but it seems to be a very slow process. The Instrument itself is very good but the reliability and quality of the supplied gauges is somewhat questionable. The coolant sensor and oil sensor are the same which appear to be 120C - the auto is 143C max operation so the sensor they supplied is not suitable. Also the engine oil pressure sensor has temperature issues as reported by many others.

Moving on I have replaced the Viscus fan, Viscus fan bearing, thermostat and hoses; the radiator was replaced 3 years ago buy the previous owner and the water pump was replaced 4 years ago by previous owner.

From the service records it had the water pump replaced at 78,000 km and then again at 156,000 km, it now has 208,000 km on the clock; I'm not sure why it was replaced the first time but the second time was because it overheated and it was towed in for repair. That was 4 years ago and there is no evidence in the service records of any work being done to the head. I am a big believer though that once an alloy head is overheated its eutectic properties are history! face it off as much as you want but its in vain!

I am starting to think I need a new head....:(

If anyone has any suggestions of what I can do prior to forking out for a new head please chime in!

[discorevy]

Is it pressurising from cold ?, if yes then you might want to pull the head , if not , check you have a good stream of coolant from the telltale under the expansion tank cap, if not , first make sure the hole isn't blocked , if still no stream from there you may want to check water pump , and drive dogs etc, also make sure the hoses to thermostat are the correct way round. You can take it to any workshop and get them to put a laser temp gauge on it to see what your temps are , get them to do a teekay or similar test while your there

[TAHAIC]

Yes I have been thinking about the water pump. My power steering pump is very nosiy and has been since I bought it. I have been think that its probably worth changing them both. They were both changed together due to over heating and broken dog drives 4 years and 50,000 km ago.

There is a stream of coolant from the hose under the cap whether its a good stream or not I don't know.

I have double checked the thermostat hoses when I changed it (used genuine thermostat).

How do I check if its pressuring from cold?

It seams to warm up pretty fast.

What is a teekay test?

[AK83]

.....

What is a teekay test?

TEE-KAY Head Check Combustion Leak Detector - WB Tools (http://wbtools.com.au/products/automotive-equipment/tee-kay-head-check-combustion-leak-detector/)

[Mark C]

Madman in Australia have been very good. There are two senders - both VDO but with different ranges. I had similar problems and sorted them out with a manual re-calibration and have checked against a known good gauge -water temp before re-calibration went up to 110, now sits where it belongs - 91. My Gearbox is a little high at 75 and engine oil pressure is accurate. I did have issues with earthing, now sorted.

[4runnernomore]

Madman in Australia have been very good. There are two senders - both VDO but with different ranges. I had similar problems and sorted them out with a manual re-calibration and have checked against a known good gauge -water temp before re-calibration went up to 110, now sits where it belongs - 91. My Gearbox is a little high at 75 and engine oil pressure is accurate. I did have issues with earthing, now sorted.

How did you sort your earthing issue for the oil pressure. Mine is driving me nuts and seriously considering changing it out to something else.

[Mark C]

Earth was not an issue as earths through the fill plug - note that there are two different adapters available - the threads are different. What sender have you selected in the Madman setup for the sender?

[Mark C]

My bad - I was talking about the gear box sender for temp. I had get a special adapter for the oil pressure as the threads were different - my pressure runs from 4.4 bar down to .9 bar using 10 - 40 oil. There is no earth required as this is within the engine block. My system settled down when I physically earthed the Madman (and other required earths) to the side of the engine block

[TAHAIC]

How did you sort your earthing issue for the oil pressure. Mine is driving me nuts and seriously considering changing it out to something else.

The oil pressure sender is very susceptible to heat, mine starts off cold with good values of about 54 PSI but then it drops in pressure with temperature as the engine warms up down to values < 20PSI. Most people are having trouble with this. When I sort it out I will post and and let you know.

To sort out the wiring for the oil pressure sender all you need to do is tee into the black wire from the stock oil pressure switch with the blue wire from Madman and then connect the grey wire from the Madman to the Madman oil pressure sender. The earth for the pressure sender is via the metal fitting/hose and through the engine block. Mad man earth wires need to be fixed to the head as per the instructions.

[TAHAIC]

Thanks to Daniel from 4WD Repair Shop in Rockhampton I confirmed that the factory coolant temperature sensor was reading a perfectly normal 90C - 92C whilst the Madman was reading 115C. This was after much communication with Madman AU and Madman providing custom user data for the response curve of the VDO 320.002 sender that they provided. After entering the custom data it made the reading worse changing it from 107C to 115C.

Thank God I did not go ahead with a $3.5K - $5K head replacement! :D

In the long run it brought my attention to a stuffed viscus fan bearing and serpentine belt tensioner so not all is lost! :) When I finialise the temp sender data I will post the solution.

[Mark C]

I have found that earthing to the block has been better than the head. Initially I found that earthing problems were giving false readings, given this has now been sorted I am running Madman Aust. custom curve that provides 1C either way of what my diagnostic kit provides for. Is your sender fitted to the top hose or have you fitted it using an adapter to the same point as the standard sender ? Mine is in the top hose. (I did have an issue that the standard crimp fitting was not 100% - I have replaced with crimp and soldered lugs.

[TAHAIC]

I have found that earthing to the block has been better than the head. Initially I found that earthing problems were giving false readings, given this has now been sorted I am running Madman Aust. custom curve that provides 1C either way of what my diagnostic kit provides for. Is your sender fitted to the top hose or have you fitted it using an adapter to the same point as the standard sender ? Mine is in the top hose. (I did have an issue that the standard crimp fitting was not 100% - I have replaced with crimp and soldered lugs.

I have the sandwich adapter which bolts to the head and sits in between the head and the stock sender. So both water temp senders are right next to each other. I posted a picture back on page 2 of this thread, right click on it and select "open in new window" to get a larger picture. I agree that earthing should never be overlooked. What sender do you have is it the 320.002 120C from Madman AU and are you using the response curve data that Jan emailed out?

[TAHAIC]

I have found that earthing to the block has been better than the head. Initially I found that earthing problems were giving false readings, given this has now been sorted I am running Madman Aust. custom curve that provides 1C either way of what my diagnostic kit provides for. Is your sender fitted to the top hose or have you fitted it using an adapter to the same point as the standard sender ? Mine is in the top hose. (I did have an issue that the standard crimp fitting was not 100% - I have replaced with crimp and soldered lugs.

I have the sandwich adapter which bolts to the head and sits in between the head and the stock sender. So both water temp senders are right next to each other. I posted a picture back on page 2 of this thread, right click on it and select "open in new window" to get a larger picture. I agree that earthing should never be overlooked. What sender do you have is it the 320.002 120C from Madman AU and are you using the response curve data that Jan emailed out?

[Mark C]

I have the VDO 120 and am using the curve from Jan, and I have also checked the curve using the sender and heating up water in a dish - so I know the new curve is ok.

Something I did not mention - Madman reported low battery voltage during the time I was doing the install, swapped out the battery for a known good battery and I found that the temp reading dropped. No idea why, however I have fitted a new battery.

Do you have any diagnostics you can use to verify the temp while running?

[TAHAIC]

I have a Nanocom on the way. I suspect I have a different sender. Can you post a photo of the top of your water temp sender?

[TAHAIC]

Just to give some feed back here for anyone interested, VDO USA will not release complete response curves to their senders due propriety reasons.They did agree however to provide any 3 data points on the response curve of my choice. So I asked for 3 points on the 120C sender and 3 points on the 150C sender. It was then a fairly simple but fruitful process to analysis this data combined with the ADC data from Jan (Madman AU) by using Excel to determine that the response curves where all exponential and very similar. In fact the only difference was a scaling factor.

I was then able to determine the response curve equation and project the Madman data to provide further points above 100C for both the 320.002 120C and 320.021 150C senders and give this info to Jan. I also was able determine the response curve equation of my sender in my disco by calculating the scaling factor due to the fact that when my Madman reads 115C it is in reality 92C. This then allowed me to calculate the respective ADC values for my sender to enter in the Madman custom calibration.

So my Madman temperature is now correct. When I receive my Nanocom I will cross check to see how accurate it is but I am sure it wont be to far out. I still think I may have a different sender from the one Mark and Jan used due to there being such a difference in the values - would really like a photo Mark.

I have also noted that I do have a 2 ohm resistance between the sandwich adapter and earth because the sandwich adapter has gasket sealant between it and the head and also on the other side between it and the factory sender unit housing. So this may be accounting for the difference. I will have to remove the sandwich adapter to drill and tap it in order to fit an earth wire to fix this. The factory sender and housing is earthed fine because the nut on the stud is in contact with the housing and earthing it out via the stud which is screwed into the head.

When I finialise these things I'll post the details and hopefully someone else might benefit from this info.

Here is the equations, response curves and ADC Values which you can plug straight into the Madman for 320.002 and 320.021 senders.

116309

116310

[Mark C]

I will get the photo sorted out this evening .. on my side I have replaced the engine mounts (I had to choose to either follow the Dysan around the house or replace the engine mounts !), in any event a side benefit is that the inter cooler hose on the drivers side is too short and will not stay clamped - should keep my out of the house for a few more days...

[Mark C]

I have the pictures - need to figure out how to upload
I am going to change over to the adapter that fits next to the original sender, not that I have had any issues with the inline sensor, however cutting into a coolant line at some point will end in tears

[TAHAIC]

Thanks that confirms my suspicions, the sender Madman AU sent me looks completely different to yours and it also looks completely different to all the 320.002 I find on for sale on the net.

[Mark C]

the Gauge Shop carries stock and you can order on line.

[MaxiSeven]

pull grill out and have a look at your air con condenser wish we had prior to spending a small fortune replacing head, injector harness, water pump, all hoses, thermostat, Viscous fan and fan hub bearing. everything 3 mechanics could come up with but did not stop getting hot enough to go into limp mode the condenser was full of insects and reducing airflow to the radiator.

[TAHAIC]

pull grill out and have a look at your air con condenser wish we had prior to spending a small fortune replacing head, injector harness, water pump, all hoses, thermostat, Viscous fan and fan hub bearing. everything 3 mechanics could come up with but did not stop getting hot enough to go into limp mode the condenser was full of insects and reducing airflow to the radiator.

Well that's interesting, I will check it out. Did it actually go into limp mode? What happens when it goes into limp mode?

Is there a good insect screen/bra for D2's? Possibly one that could double as a wader.

[evandar]

I have had the same overheating problem that started with my condenser fan running after I parked the car even without running the aircon. Then one day after climbing a hill I couldn't accelerate away, it felt like the rpm were restricted. At the same time I noted the temp gauge above the normal half-way point, so I wondered if the two were connected. After reading this thread, I cleaned out the condenser radiator and changed the viscous fan over with one from a wrecker. So far, this has fixed the problem, but I also wondered about a screen for the front grille - there were a few bent cooling fins from some big hard headed bugs.

Is "limp mode" something coded into the engine system? I couldn't find anything in the manual about it.

[TAHAIC]

I have had the same overheating problem that started with my condenser fan running after I parked the car even without running the aircon. Then one day after climbing a hill I couldn't accelerate away, it felt like the rpm were restricted. At the same time I noted the temp gauge above the normal half-way point, so I wondered if the two were connected. After reading this thread, I cleaned out the condenser radiator and changed the viscous fan over with one from a wrecker. So far, this has fixed the problem, but I also wondered about a screen for the front grille - there were a few bent cooling fins from some big hard headed bugs.

Is "limp mode" something coded into the engine system? I couldn't find anything in the manual about it.

Well I am very happy all this ranting helped someone :) .

I have know idea about limp mode, I don't think the engine management system does anything when it comes to high coolant temps. If someone actually knows it would be good if you could chime in and set us straight.

And yes a bug screen that could double as a wader would be great - I haven't had time to research that.

[sierrafery]

The two things: electric fan running after the ignition was off and the reduced power(not particulary limp mode) are connected, both are sign of overheating and the symptom is covered in the workshop manual, the fan will stay on if the ECT exceeds 105*C when the ignition is off and the ECM will limit fuelling when the ECT reaches 120*C at the same time when the gauge leaves the middle, relevant pages attached

[Geoff86RRC]

Greetings
PROBLEM
Four years I have struggled with my V8 overheating. I bought an OBDC and plugged it in and used my iPhone to monitor the temperature. I did this because the gauge is completely useless. It used to run at 105 to 110 degrees. After a new radiator it got hotter. On the highway, on hills at night in the cool it was always hot hot hot. I replaced the viscous fan. It had extra fans, everything was checked and changed out to no avail. I also bought an engine watchdog and found that it was running about 3 degrees below that showing from the OBDC (which comes from the actual temp sender)
SOLUTION
Murray, at Jagrover Spares in Brisbane got sick of all of the engines overheating and blowing and liners slipping and head gaskets popping and radiators popping and I even saw one of the thermostats with a huge split in its side due to excessive temperature and pressure. He has totally redesigned the coolant flow and he now uses an in-line thermostat running at 82 degrees, with a slight drillhole modification. He has done away with the stupid BMW heart valve monstrosity, and my D2V8 now sits on 84 to 89 degrees. I cannot thank him enough and urge all D2 and P38 owners to contact him. (07) 3857 5763. He has actually worked it out and my vehicle is fantastically cool just like the old ranges and disco ones of yesterday. This works for p38s too. He has the hoses and inline thermostat that fit and work. Hallelujah.