"Return-to-Centre" steering Damper from 4WD1

[nosch]

does anybody has any experiance with the "Return-to-Centre" steering Damper from 4WD1? Would you advice to change my old bilstein?

Found this on ebay:


LANDROVER DISCOVERY OWNERS

Landrover vehicles can benefit from the amazing 4Way Return-to-Centre steering damper.

Designed especially for those vehicles with over-size tyres, and vehicles more 'agricultural' in the steering feel, the 4Way damper provides superb road-handling characteristics and eliminates steering shimmy and driver fatigue.

Wrapped in tough steel springs that work on the "Return-to-Centre" principle.

When compressed, the spring pushes back to the neutral position. When extended, the spring pulls back to the neutral position.

Virtually eliminates steering wheel kick and "fight-back".

Not only a steering damper. This is a steering assist device!

Warranty:

2 years/ 40,000km.

Main benefits:

Effective damper, yet a 'steering-assist' device also.

Applications:(Please confirn your Landrover Discovery type from the list below, as well as the year model.

- Landrover Discovery, Series 1.

- Landrover Discovery, Series 2.

We will ensure the correct application.

Immediate dispatch once payment confirmed.

Get one today. Great value at £69

Delivery by economy airmail insured £28 (United Kingdom)

Super-low freight-rates world-wide.

Payment for purchase within the United Kingdom to be made by PayPal (with confirmed address).

BUY WITH CONFIDENCE. YOUR'RE DEALING WITH 4WD1.

4WD1 is one of the world's largest specialists in the direct-sales of premium-quality 4WD suspension components. Based in Australia, we specialize in 'hassle-free' international shipping, direct to the 4WD owner. We have even exported suspension products to Russia, Inner Mongolia and South Africa, just to name a few far-flung destinations.

WE ARE A REAL COMPANY, RUN BY REAL PEOPLE.

WE HAVE been incorporated since 1976.

WE ARE the No.1 Rancho dealer in the Southern Hemisphere.

WE DON'T list a bunch of names that we apparently sell, only for you to contact us and hear. "Well, we can get it in for you!" We stock what we advertise.

WE SHIP anywhere! No matter where you live, we can send your order to you. Distance is no problem.

WE TRY very hard to give you the very best service. Most orders will be on their way the same day. If you have any questions, please phone, fax or email us anytime.

WE APPRECIATE the Ebay feedback system and are proud of our feedback quality. We provide feedback to those purchasers who make payment within 5 working days of the transaction.

For People Who Know The Earth Isn't Flat ®

Our motto says it all. Four-wheel drivers who love to get away from the cities and suburbs, and find happiness in the isolation of remote places, know that you need reliable, good-performing equipment. Tough stuff that will not let you down when Mother Nature turns nasty.

Contact details:

4WD1 Pty Ltd - 44 Carrington Road, Castle Hill, NSW, 2154, Australia.

Phone + 61 - 296342238 Fax: + 61-296342238 sales@4wd1.com

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:blue">if they are an aussie company.....why are their prices in pounds instead of dollars....


they advertise in mags and on the net........
but where did thie above ad come from.....?
a uk site maybe.....?</span>

[incisor]

the advertise in pounds to catch the unwary IMHO

[tombraider]

4wd1.biz used to be Rancho Australia.

The RTC steering damper is made by 4way suspension and is available from your local Opposite Lock Dealer.

They are excellent, especially in mud and sand, assisting with the positioning of the front wheels where you can get them off centre easily and not realise it.

They also help with the steering centralising quicker.

I have ran them on the Disco, Defender, Disco2, my wifes old cruiser and her 'steroided' vitara...

They work well..

Cheers
Mike

[one_iota]

Also available from:

http://www.4waysuspension.com.au/about.htm

http://www.4waysuspension.com.au/rtc.htm

discowhite has one and is well pleased.

I am getting one soon.

[discowhite]

Bloody marvellous!

everyone should get one of these jobbies, easy to fit.
GU pootrol is the same dampner.

$165 + freight from 4way!.

best money ive spent. Oh they also go very well with the steering dampner kits ive made, that i have for sale. 8)

phil
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album17/507347313cmyMlH_ph.jpg
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album17/507346839icojlJ_ph.jpg

[one_iota]

Originally posted by discowhite
Bloody marvellous!

everyone should get one of these jobbies, easy to fit.
GU pootrol is the same dampner.

$165 + freight from 4way!.

best money ive spent. Oh they also go very well with the steering dampner kits ive made, that i have for sale. 8)

phil
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album17/507347313cmyMlH_ph.jpg
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album17/507346839icojlJ_ph.jpg

Phil's dampner relocation kit is also highly recommended style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif

[nosch]

time to say goodbye to my old bilstein, I persume.

Might be another nicy christmas present for my wife style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif 8)

Phil, what&#96;s the gap with your damper relocation kit?

[rick130]

whats wrong with your Bilstein ??
I just don't like the idea of the 4-Way, and never have. To me they are answering a question no one ever asked.

A steering damper is there to do exactly that, dampen any major kickback to the steering. I can't see the point in introducing a spring into the equation that also needs to be damped, which means that the steering damper has to have stronger damping to dampen spring oscillations whch further reduces steering feel and sensitivity.

IMHO, if a 4-Way helps your steering, it is band-aidng an existing problem with your alignment.

If you steering damper is knackered, by all means replace it, but I don't think it needs to be wrapped in a spring.

[Andrewpv01]

Do you have to drill the chassis to fit it or do you use existing holes?

Andrew

[matbor]

Don't they say to use these steering dampers only if u have BIG wheels on !!

Phill, How much is the relocation kit ?? and is the idea behing this to move the existing damper out of the way of rocks style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif

Matt.

[abaddonxi]

Originally posted by rick130

A steering damper is there to do exactly that, dampen any major kickback to the steering. I can't see the point in introducing a spring into the equation that also needs to be damped, which means that the steering damper has to have stronger damping to dampen spring oscillations whch further reduces steering feel and sensitivity.



Can someone explain this to me 'cos I don't get it.

I would have thought that a spring added to your steering damper would have to be pretty fierce if it was going to to any good. So, if that's the case, it's going to be a great help on the return trip, but on the outward trip it's going to make your power steering work harder.

Is this so?

And if so, isn't that putting extra stress on your power steering, which isn't exactly the strongest part of a Land Rover.

cheers
Simon

[discowhite]

well i can tell you for a fact that my steering wheel DOSE NOT get
ripped out of my hands any where neer like it used to.
as for making it worse??? well there hasent been any negatives from
installing it only positives!
I also have a 13'' sports steering wheel, so if it were to make it harder
than i think i would have noticed it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Don't they say to use these steering dampers only if u have BIG wheels on !! [/b][/quote] thats what i bought it for. no standard SD could stop it shimming and tracking.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Phill, How much is the relocation kit ?? and is the idea behing this to move the existing damper out of the way of rocks

Matt.[/b][/quote]

that is the onlt reason i got sick of spending 80 bucks each time i bent it or crushed the body. ive got 3 left and only $50.00 + postage.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Do you have to drill the chassis to fit it or do you use existing holes?

Andrew[/b][/quote]
no drilling, all the holes are in the chassis already. there on the pass side
the LHD mount holes for the steering box, and one is where the front skid plate bolts to.
http://www.aulro.com/albums/album17/392030274HAvEBJ_ph.jpg

phil.

[one_iota]

discowhite installed his relocation kit on my disco on Friday.

I bought a gas Bilstein damper for the purpose and scrapped the OME jobby. The Bilstein is very stiff and requires some thought and effort to return to centre. Not to mention the effort required to set it up in the first place.

The steering after my spring lift has been vague probably due to the loss of castor angle.

I reckon the RTC damper is the way to go on the Disco. I have had three good reports from Disco drivers and no bad ones. One of those was a bad report from a former Disco driver who fitted one to his Defender with less than satisfactory perfomance compared with his Disco. Must be the geometry?

[discowhite]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The Bilstein is very stiff [/b][/quote]

thats a very good point mahn!

i psyscially cant compress a new bilstein SD, ask mahn!
but i can compress my RTC one at least 2''.
so that sort of dispells the fact that there ''to stiff''

phil

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>i psyscially cant compress a new bilstein SD, ask mahn! [/b][/quote]

you are trying to compress it against gas pressure, this has nothing to do with the valving. Bilstein and Koni are both mono-tube steering dampers and so use a floating piston and Nitrogen chamber at the end of the tube.
I honestly don't think this is the best design for a steering damper (although I use a Bilstein) as it can make the steering want to turn of its own accord if the swivel pre-load isn't enough. I've actually heard of someone fitting a De Carbon one and have their Landy do circle work when they took their hands off the wheel.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>but i can compress my RTC one at least 2''.
so that sort of dispells the fact that there ''to stiff'' [/b][/quote]

again, you are only compressing it against (very) low speed valving. A damper can be set up to have very little resistance at very low speeds by using a (relatively) large bleed, then have it firm up very quickly at speeds the designer determines a bump would cause kick back through the steering.
Remember that a steering damper works the same as your suspension dampers (shock absorbers), and is there to perform a similar function, only it's lying down.

[one_iota]

rick130,

The Bilstein comes straight "out of the box" so how can it be set up readily?

[rick130]

not sure I understand Mahn.
If you are talking about compressing it to fit, I think I turned the steering full lock to the (right ??) so it was extended as much as possible, then I didn't have to compress it too much.

[one_iota]

Hi Rick,

I was referring to this part:


Originally posted by rick130


A damper can be set up to have very little resistance at very low speeds by using a (relatively) large bleed, then have it firm up very quickly at speeds the designer determines a bump would cause kick back through the steering.



I presume that Bilstein has already set up the damper according to its view of the dynamics of a Discovery or Range Rover? So I guess we need to take it as it comes out of the box.

Further more I guess that the advantage of the gas damper is that it will like gas shocks tolerate corrugated roads without fading through heat build up.

[loanrangie]

I have a rtc damper on my rangie with 15x8 rims and 31" muddies, the spring is to push/ pull the steering back to the center, they can be a bitch to setup but once done make it much nicer to drive on and off road especially if you have wider tyres. There is no more steering effort than before it was fitted.

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>I presume that Bilstein has already set up the damper according to its view of the dynamics of a Discovery or Range Rover? So I guess we need to take it as it comes out of the box.

Further more I guess that the advantage of the gas damper is that it will like gas shocks tolerate corrugated roads without fading through heat build up.[/b][/quote]

yep !

[one_iota]

I replaced the gas Bilstein with a Tuff Dog RTC Damper today to the repositioning kit fabricated and installed by discowhite a few weeks ago.

I have to say inspite of some "Doubting Thomas's" above :wink: that the difference is quite noticeable. The steering response on road at least is positive and direct. Previously I had to turn the wheel to centre but now it is self centering without being aggressively so.

The down side is the effort required to set it up: more of a tough mongrel than a tuff dog. Like everything else done the second time I could do it in half the time next time. :roll:

Took 2.5 hours from whoa to go.

I look forward to trying it under different conditions.

BTW I bought it from Opposite Lock at Alexandria (Sydney). The owner Gordon Shaw drives a Fender. His advice was helpful and the discount for cash was appreciated. It cost in the order of $155.00.

He wasn't aware of the existence of this place so I gave him the good oil and I'll approach again to see he would be interested in giving AULRO members a discount. He was talking about a lot of good Fender accessories coming out of Sth Africa.

[DaveS3]

These this make a difference but they place much more pressure upon your power steering pump.

I am undecided yet as I havent tried one.

[one_iota]

Originally posted by DaveS3
These this make a difference but they place much more pressure upon your power steering pump.

I am undecided yet as I havent tried one.

Dave,

You may well be right. Only time will tell.

I've recently replaced the PS pump. :roll:

The extra load imposed compared to the Bilstein seems to be less at low speed. Compressing the Bilstein was diabolical. I suspect the mechanical advantage imparted by PS is much greater than the effort needed to compress the tuff dog spring. The spring is light.

But I do like the response through the steering wheel so far. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Much more driving on and off road at differing speeds and conditions required before I pass the final judgement. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

I might end up with the Bilstein in tandem with the Tuff Dog: pity the PS pump 8O

Life and Land Rover owning is an experiment :wink: Bugger the theory bring on the practice.,

[walker]

Mahn,
Where do you get the repositioning kits from? Is there anywhere on the web to buy them? Is it necessary?

[Maggot4x4]

I bought one the other day for $25 from a wrecker to try them out as I also was skeptical about them.

Haven't fitted it yet as I needed the brackets to fit it. I wish I had known Phil did them before I went and ordered them.

What's involved in fitting them? Mine will have one end on the front panhard and the other on the front steering arm.

I have heard stories on other websites that these are hard on steering boxes, and that was from guys with Patrols. But they have also said it made the trucks a lot more driveable with 6"+ lifts.

[discowhite]

have you seen the pics on page one Ash??

phil.

[Maggot4x4]

Originally posted by discowhite
have you seen the pics on page one Ash??

phil.

Yeah, but weren't really clear.

[discowhite]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Quote:
Do you have to drill the chassis to fit it or do you use existing holes?

Andrew

no drilling, all the holes are in the chassis already. there on the pass side
the LHD mount holes for the steering box, and one is where the front skid plate bolts to. [/b][/quote]

thats the long bracket on mine and the angle bracket goes on the front
steering rod at the steering box end.
the hardest part as mahn said is setting it up. before you put it on the car
set the neutral length of the SD to 17''. thats the same as mine.
this would have made it easer for you too mahn.

phil

[one_iota]

Originally posted by discowhite


the hardest part as mahn said is setting it up. before you put it on the car
set the neutral length of the SD to 17''. thats the same as mine.
this would have made it easer for you too mahn.

phil

I figured the neutral length eventually.

Getting coil ono the two piece casting that retains the spring onto the barrel of the shock absorber was an interesting exercise. I have some blisters :roll:

But holding the barrel with multi grips and turning the coil I managed. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Pedro_The_Swift]

soooo---

I ASSUME after reading this post that,,

the normal bilstein steering damper is "not sufficient" when the vehicle is raised and/or has oversized wheels.

[one_iota]

Originally posted by Pedro_The_Swift
soooo---

I ASSUME after reading this post that,,

the normal bilstein steering damper is "not sufficient" when the vehicle is raised and/or has oversized wheels.

I'll hazard a reply and welcome the debate.

On a conventional spring lift the built-in non-adjustable castor angle is increased. The drive shaft angle to the horizontal is increased and as a result the steering becomes vague particularly noticeable in the straight ahead direction. A pair of cranked radius arms will restore the geometry. However most of us don't bother with such niceties and up to 2" of lift it is not usually something to worry too much about. So:

A return to centre damper overcomes this vagueness as opposed to a conventional damper (Herr Bilstein's or other wise).

As for larger tyres depending on the tyres foot print and indeed the tyre pressures more friction has to be overcome whilst steering so the normal return to centre function is thwarted. The spring on the damper assists the steering.

So in summary its not the damper but the spring that makes the difference. Of course while the spring helps you also have to work against it whilst steering to lock. So the issue there is the additional load based on the steering system to compress the spring.

The Bilstein gas damper seems to require a lot of effort to compress it so I wonder if this is not the same as compressing a spring. I've no doubt that the Bilstein is good particulalrly at relatively high speeds on winding corrugated roads for long periods of time (as it shouldn't fade through over heating) but for my money off road at low speed I prefer the directness imparted by the RTC. I will be keeping the Bilstein to fit in the conventional location for the long trip to Marree.

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>the normal bilstein steering damper is "not sufficient" when the vehicle is raised and/or has oversized wheels.[/b][/quote]

how much lift are we talking about here ?
I've had 117mm between the bump stops at rest (the only semi-reliable measure I know to compare lifts) with 255/85/16 tyres and a Bilstein damper with no problems whatsoever.

[amtravic1]

I was not going to comment on this post but today I needed to fit a heavy duty drag link to my car. I discovered that a RTC damper will not fit with the bigger drag link as there is not enough room for the spring. No problem, thought I would just remove the spring. I found that the damper was stuffed after less than 18 months of use. There was no damping in the initial parts of the stroke. Not happy. It should have lasted longer. I went and bought a new Bilstein, which I know will last unless I bend it. I already miss the self centreing action but really, the quality does not seem to be there compared with a Bilstein.

Ian

[one_iota]

Originally posted by amtravic1
I was not going to comment on this post but today I needed to fit a heavy duty drag link to my car. I discovered that a RTC damper will not fit with the bigger drag link as there is not enough room for the spring. No problem, thought I would just remove the spring. I found that the damper was stuffed after less than 18 months of use. There was no damping in the initial parts of the stroke. Not happy. It should have lasted longer. I went and bought a new Bilstein, which I know will last unless I bend it. I already miss the self centreing action but really, the quality does not seem to be there compared with a Bilstein.

Ian

I presume that the "car" is a Fender as the damper is on the drag link and not in the case of the Disco/RR, the tie rod.

The RTC without the spring would appear to be insufficient I agree.

With the relocation kit on the Disco I can run either or both together.

[amtravic1]

I presume that the "car" is a Fender as the damper is on the drag link and not in the case of the Disco/RR, the tie rod.

No, its an 89 Rangie. The damper is fitted to the rod behind the axle. Perhaps I used the wrong term, perhaps I should have used "the easily bendable piece of spaghetti behind the axle".

Ian

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>On a conventional spring lift the built-in non-adjustable castor angle is increased. The drive shaft angle to the horizontal is increased and as a result the steering becomes vague particularly noticeable in the straight ahead direction. A pair of cranked radius arms will restore the geometry. However most of us don't bother with such niceties and up to 2" of lift it is not usually something to worry too much about. So:

A return to centre damper overcomes this vagueness as opposed to a conventional damper (Herr Bilstein's or other wise). [/b][/quote]

actually, the caster angle is decreased with a lift, but we knew what you meant . :wink:
I think this is where the RTC would work ok, (and you've confirmed it on your car) in that it compensates for the loss of caster cheaply and easily. The real fix is redrilling/slotting the swivel housings where they bolt onto the axle tubes, but this costs $$$.

I remember first seeing ads for Four Way shocks in the US 4WD mags in the mid-late seventies, and they found their way out here soon after.
US 4wd's (Jeeps, Blazers, etc) used stuff all caster, and the RTC damper helped big time.
Again, the real fix was to increase the amount of caster, and I well remember Dad making Caster wedges to fit between the leaf spring pads on the front axle of his Jeep Wagoneer in '76 so he could steer it in a straight line. (it was a shocker ) I also did the same to the Jeep Gladiator J3000 that I used to drive back in the eighties.

As well as helping straight line stability and increasing steering self centring, increasing caster also increases negative camber as the wheel turns, aiding front end grip.

[matbor]

So guys, what is the verdit ?

The "RTC Steering Damper" or a "bilstein damper" ?

I have to get one of them, but not sure which one !!!

Currently I have a 2" lift and 28" BFG's, looking at getting 31" or 32" rubber soon for some weekend fun. However I have noticed at speed (i.e. above 70+ km/hr) that the steering has a little play in it, I don't know if this is the stuffed damper (it's the original one, 160,000km's) or something else.

Matt.

[one_iota]

Originally posted by matbor


So guys, what is the verdit ?

The "RTC Steering Damper" or a "bilstein damper" ?



Hi Matt,

For me Judge Judy is still considering her verdict. :wink:

Bear in mind that the replacement of my previous damper coincides with the relocation of the damper from the tie rod to the drag link (to get it out of harms way).

I went from an Old Man Emu damper on the tie rod to a Bil on the drag link and then to the RTC on the drag llink.

Also I am running standard diameter wheels and tyres.

So far on road I prefer the RTC as I no longer have to steer the wheels back to centre compared with the Bil. The Bil was much stiffer than the original set up. The RTC is superior in feel to both previous combinations.

So the tests to come are:

1. Slow off road: I think that the RTC will be better than the Bil.

2. Fast corrugated roads: I wonder about the fade resistance that the relatively small RTC damper working hard will provide. That's why I will keep the Bil in the back for those long rough country road trips. I will put it in the original location in parallel with the RTC for those rare occasions.

So if I were you:

Until you get your new shoes buy a cheap Old Man Emu damper or similar and see if that deals with your current issue.

[feraldisco]

the fact that Bilsteins are very stiff is an advantage as far as I'm concerned when you're running big rubber. I've tried both and prefer Bilstein.

wrt modified steering damper locations, I'd be wary of insurance implications. I personally would like to set up a twin steering damper set-up but have resisted, because playing around with steering components may well void insurance claims...

[loanrangie]

Matbor, i would get a stock rover spe one from 4WD in blackburn, they are only $50 or so last time i checked and then if you increase your tyre size later you wont be out of pocket very much when you get a rtc.

Also i should add , it would be possible to use the spring and clamp of the rtc and fit it to another damper if you remove the shield.

[dungarover]

I only but the el-cheapo ones because I always destroy them off-road :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

The $50 ones that FWD spares or FWD in brisbane sell last a while and if i wreck one, I'm not $160 out of pocket unlike a bilstein unit (the 87 Rangie has a Bilstein one as well as shocks).

Not sure about the RTC jobs, never had one so I can't somment.

Trav

[matbor]

went the bilstein in the end https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

steering is so much better now https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Matt.