No acceleration, engine dies.......

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
So replaced the head on Red Dog, 2002 TD5 15P head manual transmission, started up yesterday on completion went out for a drive, all great, running as per normal, maybe a little bit of ecxcessive overrun (this might just have been me being overly critical), nothing else. Maybe drove 15 klms all up.

This morning, come to start, just a little bit more turning over than normal, acceleration doesn't seem as good, get to the bottom of the drive and accelerate, suddley complete loss of power, kicks back in as suddenly as it died and then dies again.

Try to start, it is as though I have a flat bettery except the lights on the dash don't go dim. Battery was replaced maybe three weeks ago. After about three or four attempts the engins starts to turn over getting quicker and quicker, eventually sits on tickover, try to acceleate nothing, very little power, moves about 20 meters and dies again.

Try to start again, again sounds like a flat bettery without the lights going dim. Eventually spins over quite freely and sounds like the engine wants to go but just won't bite.

Went and got plan B out of the garage and left plan A by the side of the road.

Came back maybe fours or five hours later, engine started and I had the ability to turn around, got maybe 10 meters up the road engine dies again. Again sounds like a flat battery but isn't.

Towed home by my good wife, Red Dog back in the shed. Engine now starts and will tick over, depressing the acceleator nothing, engine speed won't rise. Put my Hawkeye on, no faults recorded. I checked the live data, the fuel pump manifold and head pressure are about 100 kpa which seems low, the fuel pump also doesn't sound as fast as it usually does. The fuel pump 's running (obviously).

Have been to the shed, started engine again now revs, up and down several times, switch off the engine, engine starts but won't rev. All the voltages indicate that the throttle is being pressed however the engine speed doesn't change.

New fuel filter was fitted a week or so, ran to work for a week prior to taking the head off. Haven't been to any dodgy servos, only BP

Swapped relays in the engine bay and checked fuses, nothing found or changed.

Does this sound like a fuel pump issue? Silicon hoses fitted in the turbo lines no internal colapses noted when I did the head, a bit of smoke when reved, not overly smokey hence I thing it is furel delivery andnot air intake related, open to ideas!!

I did put some injector cleaner in maybe one and a half tanks ago, not sure if this is relevant however more information.

Any assitance greatly recieved.

Cheers Marty.

[sierrafery]

Seems very like fuel pump HP side failure

[justinc]

Sounds like injector lower washers to me. Have you checked your oil level??? I have seen a leaking one allow enough diesel into a cylinder to hydraulic lock during cranking...😮

Jc

[Nomad9]

Hi Sierrafery,
Thanks for that at least i'm on the right track,, a whole miryad of things go through your head especally after I've had the engine in so many bits. For something to fail coincidentaly that wasn't touched did seem a bit "random". Again thanks I'll now have to find a fuel pump.....

Cheers Marty.

[Nomad9]

Hi JC,
Thank you for your suggestion, I have just checked the oil level spot on where I left it yesterday, I would have thought that upper o-rings would have filled the sump, lower washers the cylinder and hydraulic lock as you mention.

New copper lower washers 99.9999999% sure I put them all in I don't have any left over I bought 5. Upper o-rings I am 100% sure that all of these were replaced, and I felt them go into location, I was super careful here because I have been caught out with an upper o-ring before, missed the right groove, however caught it because the injector dropped straight into the hole.

I am sure as I can be without taking the injectors out that they are all right. The engine ran beautifully last night, stopped and started perfectly.

It is only when the engine stops itself whilst I am trying to move it is difficult to turn over. If I stop the engine from idle which is all it will do right now the engine spins as normal when I try to start it again, no sluggish start.

Usually when the ignition key is turned to on and the fuel pump starts initially I hear this high rev pumping sound, whenever I turn te ignition on now all I hear is a low buzzing sound of the fuel pump, no high pitched reving sound.

I have now checked over the inlet side everything looks to be normal, nothing has fallen off or appears to be blocked....

If you think of anything else suggest away....

Cheers Marty

[bronson]

Any air in the fuel line by any chance?

Bronson

[Nomad9]

Hi Bronson,
Initially after the head was installed I bled the fuel system through for a couple of turns of the key before going for a start. After a few turns ole Red Dog fired up and then as I mentioned I drove for about 15 klms before returning home, stopping and starting when I visted the shops and other places about maybe four stops and four starts each time perfect.
I would have thought that the air would have been well and truly out by then, the tank is 3/4 full.

Thanks for the suggestion, I keep on heading back to a fuel issue. Encouraging.....

The fact that when the engine is at idle which is all it will do right now and I can put my foot to the boards with no increase in engine speed must mean something. I have no engine light up by the way. If the fuel pressure is to low will the engine try to speed up and then falter if the throttle pedal is pressed or is the ECU smart enough to know that with the fuel pressure as low as it is that the accelerator is disabled.

Cheers Marty

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
After reading a few posts I am now getting ideas about the clutch switch being a manual, the throttle position sensor and possibly the "throttle pot", i'm not sure if the throttle pot and the throttle sensor are the same thing, just people using different terminoligy.

Because I had seen the throttle voltage changing I had assumed that the throttle sensor was working... Anybody had a throttle pot / sensor failure, do the symptoms sound anything like the ones I am seeing?

Cheers Marty

[sierrafery]

here are the symptoms of TP failure(from RAVE):

The TP sensor can fail the following ways or supply incorrect signal:
l Sensor open circuit.
l Short circuit to vehicle supply.
l Short circuit to vehicle earth.
l Water ingress.
l Sensor incorrectly fitted.

In the event of a TP sensor signal failure any of the following symptoms may be observed:
l Engine performance concern.
l Delayed throttle response.
l Failure of emission control.

If the TP sensor fails, the engine will only run at idle and the MIL will remain on until the fault is eliminated. Turning
the ignition off/on can reset the MIL provided that the fault has been rectified.

[Nomad9]

Hi Sierrafery,
the only thing I don't have is the MIL light on, (assume engine light, what does MIL stand for?). Apart from that most things line up.

This morning starts, engine wanted to go straight away, when I let the key go the engine was running at idle. Pressed the accelerator a couple of times, very delayed response, then the engine revs slowly up and down. Turned the engine off now and have disconnected the battery, I'll see if that resets anything, i'll try again.

Thanks for hangining in there, I am either aiming now at the throttle sensor or the fuel pump. My step-son iscoming down with his D2 later on this morning I'm going to check the fuel pressure on his 2002 D2 to see if they are the same.

If you think of anything else please let me know.

Cheers Marty

[sierrafery]

If it was the TP in 99% of cases you should have got a "driver demand" fault code + MIL warning, if you have nanocom read live TP inputs cos it's easy to see if it works or not.... accel way(track) 1 should start from around 0.8 and track 2 around 4.2 then as you push the pedal the whole thing should turn around which means track 1 grows while track 2 drops, the gist is that t1 + t2 should be = supply voltage.... you can neglect track 3 if your's is with 3 tracks cos that would not affect much the engine running, it's only a kinda' fine tuning for the others to make things more smoother if you see what i mean...running issues without fault codes is fuel delivery system related, pump, FPR, leaking washers or (let's hope not) cracked head

[Milton477]

Try changing the sensor on the inlet manifold, MAP, I think its called. I had similar symptoms although mine happened occasionally & always cleared. Turns out that the sensor also reads air temperature & when this reading goes above 100 odd degrees, the ECU cuts the throttle input.

[Nomad9]

Hi Milton477,
Ok, I have checked the MAF sensor voltage and the temperatures, they all appear to be normal, around 31 to 32 degrees C in the shed we are expecting 31 degrees ambient today so this seems right, nothing above 100 degrees C.

This morning I have removed the MAF sensor and cleaned it (again) checked all the connections and also removed the ambient air sensor out of the air box and cleaned that as well.

The throttle sensor voltages go up and down as described so I am now moving away from the accelerator, however depending on the start the engine either revs or has no throttle response at all, when the start is with no throttle response it is literally that, nothing, it is like the throttle is disconnected, engine just sits on idle. Go for another start and the engine will rev albiet slowly and then have enough power to get the vehicle back into the shed.

Fuel pressure is steady (ish) all through all excersises at 100 to maybe 101.kpa never wavers. Can I assume that the pressure should be higher than this, does the throttle response increase the the fuel pressure and activate the high pressure side of the pump?

Waiting for my step-son to arrive so I can plug into his D2.

I thought this would have been relatively easy to diagnose I thought someone would have had something similar. Yours is similar Milton however not the same, thank you for your suggestions.

Chers Marty

[Nomad9]

Hi Sierrafery,
I have checked the voltages everyting seems to be in order.

Cheers Marty

[Ean Austral]

This is way out of left field and it's been many years since I did anything on a D2 but is it possible that a fuel line is in the wrong spot when you put it back together. ? I'm not even sure if that can happen .

I think they pump a lot more fuel than they use, is it possible the fuel lines are on the wrong way around.

Just to throw in a curve ball.

Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi Sierrafery,
Everything I have read, especially the bit in Rave manual about the fuel pressures, I should b seeing 400 kpa at the head manifold and I am only seeing 100 kpa which is a 1/4 of what it is supposed to be, you could be on the money with his one.

Cheers Marty

[Milton477]

Hi Milton477,
Ok, I have checked the MAF sensor voltage and the temperatures, they all appear to be normal, around 31 to 32 degrees C in the shed we are expecting 31 degrees ambient today so this seems right, nothing above 100 degrees C.

This morning I have removed the MAF sensor and cleaned it (again) checked all the connections and also removed the ambient air sensor out of the air box and cleaned that as well.

The throttle sensor voltages go up and down as described so I am now moving away from the accelerator, however depending on the start the engine either revs or has no throttle response at all, when the start is with no throttle response it is literally that, nothing, it is like the throttle is disconnected, engine just sits on idle. Go for another start and the engine will rev albiet slowly and then have enough power to get the vehicle back into the shed.

Fuel pressure is steady (ish) all through all excersises at 100 to maybe 101.kpa never wavers. Can I assume that the pressure should be higher than this, does the throttle response increase the the fuel pressure and activate the high pressure side of the pump?

Waiting for my step-son to arrive so I can plug into his D2.

I thought this would have been relatively easy to diagnose I thought someone would have had something similar. Yours is similar Milton however not the same, thank you for your suggestions.

Chers Marty

Hi Marty,

Just to clarify, I am talking about the MAP (Manifold absolute pressure/ inlet air temperature sensor) located on the inlet manifold. It was the spurious high temperature readings from this sensor that was preventing the throttle response. My MAF & Ambient Air Temp were fine. I only found the problem when I looked at a trend of the temperature downloaded from my Nanocom.

Good luck.
Regards
Rory

[sierrafery]

....
Fuel pressure is steady (ish) all through all excersises at 100 to maybe 101.kpa never wavers. Can I assume that the pressure should be higher than this, does the throttle response increase the the fuel pressure and activate the high pressure side of the pump?


How did you measure that pressure cos it's impossible with nanocom, or any other tester, it's doable only with a pressure gauge..... and if it's with a gauge you can change the pump pronto cos it should be around 400Kpa in the FPR in the FT seensor's port, and 500-600 on the pump HP output, if you get only around 100 it's certain that the pump lost the HP stage.... i hope you're not confusing the fuel pressure with the ambient pressure though

[Nomad9]

Hi Sierrafery,
I've just been and checked again, much as it pains me :) , you are right, the manifold pressure I am seeing is actually the inlet manifold pressure I now believe, not the fuel manifold pressure, however I am still only hearing one pump kick in. I'm still hedging my bets on the fuel pump.

Cheers Marty

[RobMichelle]

There is a fine mesh filter in the block behind the fpr, could be a possibility.
Rob

[Milton477]

Hi Sierrafery,
I've just been and checked again, much as it pains me :) , you are right, the manifold pressure I am seeing is actually the inlet manifold pressure I now believe, not the fuel manifold pressure, however I am still only hearing one pump kick in. I'm still hedging my bets on the fuel pump.

Cheers Marty

There is only 1 pump but it is a 2 stage system:

The two stage pump comprises a high and a low pressure stage. The low pressure stage draws fuel from the swirl
pot through the filter. The low pressure stage pumps fluid at a pressure of 0.75 bar (10.9 lbf.in 2 ) and a flow of 30 litres/
hour (8 US Gallons/hour) to the fuel filter. A proportion of the fuel from the low pressure stage also passes, via a
restrictor, through a jet pump which keeps fuel circulating in the swirl pot. The high pressure stage draws the low
pressure fuel from the fuel filter and pressurises it to a pressure of 4.0 bar (58 lbf.in 2 ). The pressurised fuel is then
passed from the pump to the injectors at a flow of 180 litres/hour (47.6 US Gallons/hour). A fuel pressure regulator is
located at the rear of the engine and ensures that the delivery pressure remains at 4.0 bar (58 lbf.in 2 ) by controlling
the amount of fuel returning to the fuel tank.
The fuel pump has a maximum current draw of 15 Amps at 12.5 V and is protected by a 20 Amp fuse in the engine
compartment fusebox.

I had a fuel pump failure some years ago & the vehicle would not even start, let alone idle. It needs the fuel at 4.0 bar to force through the injectors, even at idle.

[sierrafery]

Hi Sierrafery,
I've just been and checked again, much as it pains me :) , you are right, the manifold pressure I am seeing is actually the inlet manifold pressure I now believe, not the fuel manifold pressure, however I am still only hearing one pump kick in. I'm still hedging my bets on the fuel pump.

Cheers Marty
To rule out the pump without swapping it with known good one you need a hydraulic pressure gauge with an adaptor as to be able to screw it instead of the FT sensor in the FPR.... then you can see if you get 4 bar there or not

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
Like the way you think, I have checked the fuel lines now against my stepsons D2, they look to be the same, plus I'm not sure that I would be able to get it to run, I did do around 15 to 20 klms after the head rebuild, I'm sort of ruling this out unless someone can advise me differently.

Cheers Marty

[Nomad9]

Hi Rob,
I don't think the head I installed had one, I certainly didn't fit one. A few of the heads I have done the fine mesh has already been left out by previous head removalists.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Cheers Marty

[Ean Austral]

Hi Ean,
Like the way you think, I have checked the fuel lines now against my stepsons D2, they look to be the same, plus I'm not sure that I would be able to get it to run, I did do around 15 to 20 klms after the head rebuild, I'm sort of ruling this out unless someone can advise me differently.

Cheers Marty



Yeh I did wonder about the 15 - 20 ks drive myself , but if it makes someone think outside the box it may make them think of something that so far hasn't been mentioned.


I was more thinking if the fuel return was blocked or wrong it may effect the fuel pressure and that could be the cause.


As I said its out of left field but worth a mention.


Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi There,
Things checked today:-

Fuel filter replaced(again) system bled

Checked the routing of the fuel lines they appear to be ok

Took the MAF sensor of my Stepsons D2, nothing different

Found a pipe off a small solenoid connected to the " after turbo pipe" and a connection to the wastegate diaphragm + an electrical connection, replaced no difference.

Cleaned all the electrical connectors I disturbed during the head repacement except the one on the fuel pressure regulator. Just a bit to difficult to get to

Cleaned the MAP sensor in the inlet mainifold.

Checked there is nothing loose connection wise on the accelerator pedal, I didn't manage to get the wires off, just checked that they were on and tight.

So now I'm at a loss. The state of play now, the engine will start every time, on some occasions I can press the "go pedal" and the engine will rev something like normal but doesn't have much power. If the engine stalls whilst I am moving the vehicle, the engine will start and idle however the engine won't rev. If I now press the go pedal maybe four or five times in succession the yellow engine light starts to flash, no increase in engine revs. I can turn the engine off, turn it back on again no engine light flashing.

When I chnaged the fuel filter the fuel pump seemed to make its usual bleeding noises and then settled down to a steady hum.

Got me a bit stumped this one. Still no DTC's active at all.

Cheers Marty

[Ean Austral]

RAVE shows the low side of the pump keeps the fuel filter primed and the high side feeds fuel to the FPR then the injectors.

I am wondering if the low side is supplying enough fuel for the car to idle but if the high side isn't pumping then it won't supply enough fuel to rev the engine.

It could be a case of the high side failed after your short drive . Fitting a different pump will tell but I guess you need to see if someone has 1 you can try.

The fuel then goes from the injectors, to the FPR , the fuel cooler , filter then tank so unless a fuel line in kinked or blocked between the injectors and the filter it can't be much else.

Just my view anyway

Cheers Ean

[Nomad9]

Hi Ean,
I have checked all I really can now without actually replacing some parts, my prime candidates are the throttle position sensor and the fuel pump. I'll have a chat with the guys at TRS tomorrow morning they will know what the problem is and they will have the parts.

As I have heard on so many occasions "it will be something simple" if its that simple why can't I find it that easily. Sierrafery has aligned with your thoughts, I'm also pretty well sold on the fuel pump. However some of the symptoms I have read about point me to the TPS, I'm not sure how often or common a failing point they are.

Your opinions are always valued, thank you.

Cheers Marty

[discorevy]

Hi Marty
A couple of things to check seeing you've done recent work, make sure you did the injector lock nuts up when you checked bump clearances, and while the rocker cover is off , double check your cam timing ,and sprocket bolt tension, for what its worth , I reckon you will have a mesh filter in the head but it's hidden behind a fat o ring behind the fpr. Also I have seen what Ean was talking about re fuel lines around the wrong way and the blokes car ran fine for about 50 kilometers after he did the head .

[Nomad9]

Hi Discorevy,
Something else to do on my day off tomorrow, I know I did all five injector lock nuts up however checking won't do any harm. I did torque up the camshaft sprocket bolts up, however this does fit with some of the symptoms. The fuel lines, 50 klms..... really............., do you happen to know which pipe connector goes where? I have the one with the push button on the regulator and the one with the collar you push back on the fuel cooler, the other pipe position on the fuel cooler won't reach.

Thank you.

Cheers Marty

[discorevy]

It's only possible to get them round the wrong way if you have undone the pipe unions from the regulator , if that's happened, then the correct way is the top fitting on the regulator comes from the tank and the bottom one on the regulator goes to the back of the fuel cooler, and around 50 kilometers is what the owner said so can only go off his word .

[Nomad9]

Hi Discorevy,
So I took the rocker cover off this morning, all the injector rocker nuts were tight, a good start, I then checked the timing marks, with the pin in the camshaft and the plug out of the bell housing I could not see the slot in the flywheel. I then removed the bung out of the head and checked all the camshaft sprocket bolts, they were all tight.......:eek::eek:

I released all the sprocket bolts, one was a bit tighter than the rest. I now moved the crankshaft to align the slot, maybe a 1/2 a hole to 3/4 of a hole out of where it was.

Put all the bolts back in torqued them up correctly, same as before, started her up, started first go sweet as a nut. I still hadn't found the reason why the sprocket had moved, I know I had torqued up all the bolts correctly and I know the timing was right.

Went out for a test drive, first two kilometers same as always, beautiful. About a klm from home there was a slight judder, felt like a bit of a misfire, turned the corner into the home stretch and the engine stopped dead in its tracks, came to rest at the side of the road. Tried to turn the engine over, sounded very tight, every now and again would turn freely. Decided to get a neighbour out to tow me home.

I have now removed the head after I couldn't turn the crankshaft with my socket spanner. Below is what I found when I removed the head and the cam carrier. I would guess by looking at it I might have got some crap or dirt in an oil way somewhere. Dunno, all I know right now is the head is "rooted".

I made sure I didn't put any sealent in the oil ways and I air blew everything prior to assembly, plenty of oil pressure and plenty of oil around and about, plus I used an assembly fluid whilst rebuilding.

I'm sorting out a plan B with my old head right now............. Oh what an adventure.

Thanks to all for your support over the weekend, at least now I have found out what the problem is. Well done Discorevy, pretty damn close.

Cheers Marty

[DeanoH]

all I know right now is the head is "rooted".

Cheers Marty


Maybe not :)

It may be possible to line bore the head, install bearing shells, new cam and "bob's your uncle". Certainly worth a visit to your local head re-conditioner before junking the head :)


Deano :)

[discorevy]

Geez, what a bugger, all that work , you must have been just a bit unhappy . did you use silicon on the cam carrier? , its just that it looks like silicon blocking off one of the oil galleries, might be just my eyes though.

[Nomad9]

Hi Discorevy,
I've been around to my local head recoditioning guy this afternoon, he's done some checks and reckons the head is twisted through the camshaft journals. The face of the head is flat and the cam carrier sealing face is flat. Somehow the journals are out of alignment.

I asked him about shelling the journals he tells me he has done one or two of these but wouldn't recommend this as the answer. He has finished servicing my original head which has done 485,000 klms and not been off, evidence of plastic dowels however not functional. He only had to take the lightest scratch of the head so that one is now going back on. Still on the original valve guides.

I'll have to find an early head from somewhere for my stepsons D2.

Cheers Marty

[Nomad9]

Hi All,
So the story has unfolded somewhat......... I was cleaning up the block ready for the installation of the orignal recon head. I noticed something in the oil feed hole to the head, it appears that a small peice of the rag that I put in the hole whilst I cleaned the head first time broke off and rmained behind causing a restriction to the oil flow to the head.
I am quite fastidious about this particular oil hole in the head due to the obvious issues at this could and now has created. One peice in one peice out and thats is what happened. A quite expensive lesson learnt here.

The hole in the head gasket is marginally smaller than the actual hole in the block and the head. If the hole in the head gasket had been marginally bigger the bit of rag would have passed through, then more than likely just plugged off one of the other journals.

Can't be p!ssed with anyone but myself..............

Cheers Marty

[Ean Austral]

Hi All,
So the story has unfolded somewhat......... I was cleaning up the block ready for the installation of the orignal recon head. I noticed something in the oil feed hole to the head, it appears that a small peice of the rag that I put in the hole whilst I cleaned the head first time broke off and rmained behind causing a restriction to the oil flow to the head.
I am quite fastidious about this particular oil hole in the head due to the obvious issues at this could and now has created. One peice in one peice out and thats is what happened. A quite expensive lesson learnt here.

The hole in the head gasket is marginally smaller than the actual hole in the block and the head. If the hole in the head gasket had been marginally bigger the bit of rag would have passed through, then more than likely just plugged off one of the other journals.

Can't be p!ssed with anyone but myself..............

Cheers Marty

It's proberly no real consolation but atleast you found a reason. There would be far more time spent wondering what caused it if you didn't , than there will be being annoyed at yourself for something so small that caused such a big issue.

Cheers Ean

[thai_tiger]

Wow unlucky, imagine how you would be feeling if you hadn't found it and put the new head on. Well done and chin up.