Australian Army's new rifle being sold to American civilians

[bob10]

A bit hypocritical, I'd say.

https://youtu.be/v65amiUyTHQ

[PhilipA]

Well I reckon that if it makes the guns cheaper for the OZ army and secures the future of Lithgow then it is great.
We cannot control the laws of other countries.
If they allow it and it is legal then we should not take a "moral" stance IMHO.
I hope we can sell it to other armed forces also.
We have had very little success doing that as we are usually too expensive and do not pay the right people.

I was involved for a little while in trying to sell arms but that is another story but I did meet Adnan Khashoggi a few times.
Regards Philip A

[bob10]

If we sell to Americans, we should sell to Australians. Considering the civilian version is semi Auto, perhaps they could.

https://youtu.be/6847L8aEA6A

[DiscoMick]

I teckon the last thing we need in this country is more guns. There are enough weird people around as it is, without giving them guns to do even greater harm.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

I teckon the last thing we need in this country is more guns. There are enough weird people around as it is, without giving them guns to do even greater harm.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using AULRO mobile app

So, it's ok to sell guns to the weirdos in the US [ and God knows where else] what does that say about our ethics. [ethics- a system of moral principals, by which human actions and proposals may be judged good or bad , or right or wrong.]

[scarry]

The issue is,how do you determine who is a wierdo,and who isn't?

[squizzyhunter]

It's strange to see an American talking up a bullpup. Looks like a good design. How does the steyer licensing work now that it's further away from the f88 or aug. Are these now standard issue or just special snowflake issue in the adf?

[incisor]

The issue is,how do you determine who is a wierdo,and who isn't?

very scarry!

pardon the pun....

[bob10]

The issue is,how do you determine who is a wierdo,and who isn't?

If you can't work that out, stay out of Melbourne.

[bob10]

It's strange to see an American talking up a bullpup. Looks like a good design. How does the steyer licensing work now that it's further away from the f88 or aug. Are these now standard issue or just special snowflake issue in the adf?

30,000 to be delivered .

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/press-release/new-era-f90-assault-rifle-enters-australian-defence-force-service

[bob10]

A much better description of the weapon.

Nice gun.

https://youtu.be/G6pCMmOewME

[DiscoMick]

The issue is,how do you determine who is a wierdo,and who isn't?

You can't - that's why the fewer guns the better. Do we really want to copy gun-crazy USA?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Tombie]

You can't - that's why the fewer guns the better. Do we really want to copy gun-crazy USA?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app



How about gun owning Canadians. Lots of firearms there an little to no gun violence..

Not uncommon to see people on public transport in Canada with a rifle slung..

[cuppabillytea]

I once had a Ruger minny 14 semi auto. I didn't shoot anything with it. Well, nothing I aimed at anyway.:p

[isuzurover]

How about gun owning Canadians. Lots of firearms there an little to no gun violence..

Not uncommon to see people on public transport in Canada with a rifle slung..

Yes but the Canadians who own guns largely have them for hunting. Only the US has a bunch of paranoid people running around carrying guns and accidentally shooting themselves, their family and other undeserving people.

If lawful firearm owners cause most gun deaths, what can we do? (http://theconversation.com/if-lawful-firearm-owners-cause-most-gun-deaths-what-can-we-do-48567)

One of the top comments below that article shows the issue:

...as long as the police have guns, I DEMAND to have one.

[trog]

Growing up and spending half my life in Canada I only knew of one gun, that being a hunting rifle used by a freind s father. He had never used it or had any desire to in any way. Not one person I knew ever stated to having a desire to have one. The on going remarks about Americans and their guns was always amusing. Usually relating to genital size. Or stories of cars being turned back at the border solely for guns and the resulting outcry of "I am an American , it is my right " . Yep on your side of the border.

[DiscoMick]

The Americans are suffering gunsickness. Don't catch it here.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[ramblingboy42]

Is it actually an FN made under license to Lithgow Small Arms?

The name Bullpup is a famous name from FN in the original presentation of the 7.62mm SLR, which our armed forces carried between Vietnam until the Steyr-Aug.

[bob10]

Is it actually an FN made under license to Lithgow Small Arms?

The name Bullpup is a famous name from FN in the original presentation of the 7.62mm SLR, which our armed forces carried between Vietnam until the Steyr-Aug.

It is an improved Steyr-Aug, bullpup is the name given to any rifle with its action behind its trigger group, giving a shorter weapon for a given barrel length. Lithgow has improved the propellant in the rounds, I'm led to believe, making it a more effective weapon .

[bob10]

I once had a Ruger minny 14 semi auto. I didn't shoot anything with it. Well, nothing I aimed at anyway.:p

I had a 303 enfield, great for pigs. And kangaroos, shot for dog meat.

[DiscoMick]

I grew up on a farm and we had guns. There is a small role for guns on a farm. I don't think there is any role for guns in the general community. All they do is make it easier for unbalanced people to hurt others and make us all more unsafe, as happens daily in the USA.

[isuzurover]

How about gun owning Canadians. Lots of firearms there an little to no gun violence..

Not uncommon to see people on public transport in Canada with a rifle slung..

Two important comparisons with the US:

Gun ownership rates in CAN are about 1/4 of those in the US.
(Canada is about equal with Germany)

Only 12% of gun owning households have a handgun.

[isuzurover]

I grew up on a farm and we had guns. There is a small role for guns on a farm. I don't think there is any role for guns in the general community. All they do is make it easier for unbalanced people to hurt others and make us all more unsafe, as happens daily in the USA.

Indeed. From the link I posted earlier.


Gun suicide

Finally, there is the elephant in the room: gun suicide. In industrialised nations, most firearm-related deaths have nothing to do with crime. Suicides make up 77% of gun deaths in Australia. In the UK it is 70%. Even in the US, 63% of shooting deaths are self-inflicted.

Public health practitioners see suicides and homicides as almost equally preventable. But try telling a firearm owner that statistically, the person most at risk from a gun in the home is a member of their own family ? from suicide, unintentional gunshot or domestic violence.

[DiscoMick]

Yep, these people who boast about how having a gun will let them repel home invaders are kidding themselves. What often happens is the intruder takes the gun and shoots the resident. The gun they boasted would make them safer actually got them shot. Just dumb, I think.

[bob10]

So then, its ok to sell them overseas. ?

[PhilipA]

So we should be the moral compass of the World?

If someone wants to buy a gun, if they cannot get the Australian gun they will buy a gun made elsewhere.

Every time we have tried to"lead the World" by banning something nobody takes the slightest notice. Examples are Asbestos, BCF, R12 and banning smoking in restaurants and public places. I saw a video last night of an Iraqi enjoying his first cigarette after being liberated from IS. So we are in tune with IS at least. He looked like he enjoyed it.

I recall when I was tasked with selling 7.62 ammo, Bofors and 105 Howitzer ammo to Malaysia a similar uproar happened and the government caved. Did the Malaysians not buy ammo? Er No.

We are not important . Nobody cares if we make futile gestures.
That warm feeling is probably pee in your pocket.
Regards Philip A

[Meccles]

I reckon there might be plenty of toyonissan owners who reckon all on this forum are weirdos[emoji3]

[bob10]

We are not important . Nobody cares if we make futile gestures.
That warm feeling is probably pee in your pocket.
Regards Philip A

So, can you make a balanced argument without snide remarks? This is not about you, personally I couldn't care less what you did in a past life. No offence meant. I'm happy knowing the ADF has a capable weapon system . BTW, THALES owns Lithgow small arms now, nothing to do with the Government. I believe every human is important, and even futile gestures can make a difference. Any how, this a place for discussion. And I really like that weapons system.I reckon I could hit a target with it, unlike the L1A1, useless lump of a thing. Or it may have been me......

[bob10]

I reckon there might be plenty of toyonissan owners who reckon all on this forum are weirdos[emoji3]

Only the Defender drivers......

[Meccles]

Haha! [emoji3]

[rangieman]

You can't - that's why the fewer guns the better. Do we really want to copy gun-crazy USA?

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

I was going to post such a naive post then i noticed in a latter post you grew up on a farm with firearm`s :confused:
Need i say i also grew up from a very young age with firearm`s. I`m responsible & i shoot and hunt & i own firearm`s & i live within a hour of Melbourne and i`m no Weirdo:p.
And i don`t agree with your view on the subject maybe because i`m biased due to a`lot of negative press from do gooder`s that think they know better;)

[isuzurover]

So we should be the moral compass of the World?

If someone wants to buy a gun, if they cannot get the Australian gun they will buy a gun made elsewhere.

...

Who said we shouldn't sell them to the US. I didn't. I am all for supporting Australian manufacturing.

[Wraithe]

I see 2 trains of thought in this thread..
What I dont see is the reference to statistics, that show the violence in society..
In the US town of Kennasaw, it is compulsory for the head of the home to possess a firearm and have it accessible at all times. No home invasions, no murders, no violence, in fact no media coverage because they dont have the violence issues... They adopted this law in 1982 after the Virginia tech massacre... Most dangerous places in the US have restrictions, mostly total gun bans...

If you want to live in a gun free environment, go to Honduras, no guns allowed at all... Highest murder rate in the world, highest violence and home invasion...
Safest place is Switzerland, plenty guns there, no violence gun deaths murders, safest place on earth..

Canada adopted the same system that NZ uses, only last year. Drop in violent crime of 70% within 2 months of burning all registrations, personal and firearm.. Now you just need to have no criminal record and a safe, then you can buy what you want according to the class you applied for.

I am not talking as just a hunter, stock owner, shooter... I only recently had an armed drug addict break in and attempt to rob me.. I disarmed him and gave some injuries for the police to find him.. He would not have attempted if the laws allowed people to possess firearms in large numbers.. He had no idea that I am a hunter, and I would never have taken a firearm to that fight either...

History has shown what happens when you disarm society, this concept has been used as far back as Roman times... Disarm and create fear, then control completely... Hitler has done that in recent times and I am sure others will quote other situations...

Now as for the Military weapon shown(F88 semi auto), not my thing, being ex army, I dont like military weapons built in recent times, they have short barrels, low accuracy, and no wood... Give me a .300 WM or a 30/30 and i'm happy...
:)

[Meccles]

Mm sorry mate will agree to disagree. You add anger alcohol and firearms to your normal domestic situation the result can be poor. Unfortunately today the self control , discipline, responsibility that comes with so many things, like raising a family, driving a car, seems to be missing for many. Add a lethal weapon into the mix? Watch Jim Jeffries on this. Pretty relevant and he is brave.

[Wraithe]

Examples sound like they have the answer, but like all arguments, only one side gets presented by the louder group..

This concept of violence increasing and guns will make it worse, is what the media have pushed and use what they call as "prime examples"...

The actual effect of increased or compulsory firearms has always resulted in decrease of crime and violence, yet media will not push that and the anti's dont want people seeing that they are wrong..

I am the last member of my family to cop an armed robbery...
My sister worked in a servo for the last 4 years, regular hold ups, yet she still supports the idea of firearms ownership..

Maybe not me owning one, but anyone else...:p

[weeds]

Now as for the Military weapon shown(F88 semi auto), not my thing, being ex army, I dont like military weapons built in recent times, they have short barrels, low accuracy, and no wood... Give me a .300 WM or a 30/30 and i'm happy...
:)


Have you used a F88?.....

I am surprised that countries are still buying them as I thought they would have reached there use by date.

On a two way range good luck with your 303, even if you upgraded to a SLR........and ill take a F88 with a grenade launcher, some night vision and lasers any day.

[isuzurover]

...

In the US town of Kennasaw, it is compulsory for the head of the home to possess a firearm and have it accessible at all times. No home invasions, no murders, no violence, in fact no media coverage because they dont have the violence issues... They adopted this law in 1982 after the Virginia tech massacre...

You may want to read this:
What Kenne-Saw : snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/kennesaw-gun-law/)


So while the law remained on the books, there was functionally no "requirement" anyone own a gun, the already low crime rate of Kennesaw didn't "plummet," and the absence of the law's enforcement rendered it virtually meaningless.

Oh and the Virginia Tech shooting was in 2007.





Most dangerous places in the US have restrictions, mostly total gun bans...


Um, you have heard of the 2nd amendment???




If you want to live in a gun free environment, go to Honduras, no guns allowed at all... Highest murder rate in the world, highest violence and home invasion...
Safest place is Switzerland, plenty guns there, no violence gun deaths murders, safest place on earth..


Nice cherrypicking, but how about a sensible look at the data.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/968.jpg

https://zachmortensen.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/homicide-vs-firearms-1.jpg


Or if we remove the 3rd world countries:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/969.jpg
https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4002396/gun%20ownership%20countries.jpg


This graph is also compelling
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/970.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2013/03/inlinecharts3.jpg


Don't get me wrong, IMHO guns are tools, and just like any other tool have their place. But I am a realist when it comes to the data.

[Wraithe]

Have you used a F88?.....

I am surprised that countries are still buying them as I thought they would have reached there use by date.

On a two way range good luck with your 303, even if you upgraded to a SLR........and ill take a F88 with a grenade launcher, some night vision and lasers any day.

They where being adopted as I was leaving.. The weapon we trialled was an Austrian made weapon...

SLR nah, never did like them...

.303 is not that bad for hunting. I dont have one anymore, but it was good fore a hunting rifle.

.300 WM is good for the wheatbelt, but when at home, 300 metres is a long shot, thus the 30/30 is more suitable..
Only issue with the 300, is the recoil, but I enjoy the rifle so enjoy the recoil. It comes into its own when someone thinks they can handle anything, thats when I bring out the heavier rounds and let them kill a piece of paper..


I reload my own, so I have developed rounds to suit my centrefires. I dont do much shooting, but then I also have stock to keep me out of trouble and just, as of today, stopped being the carer of an elderly friend with Alzheimer's.

So now maybe back into shooting, if health permits.. The Landy will now make it more possible too..

[Wraithe]

You may want to read this:
What Kenne-Saw : snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/kennesaw-gun-law/)



Oh and the Virginia Tech shooting was in 2007.





Um, you have heard of the 2nd amendment???




Nice cherrypicking, but how about a sensible look at the data.
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/968.jpg

https://zachmortensen.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/homicide-vs-firearms-1.jpg


Or if we remove the 3rd world countries:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/969.jpg
https://cdn1.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/4002396/gun%20ownership%20countries.jpg


This graph is also compelling
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/11/970.jpg

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/feature/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2013/03/inlinecharts3.jpg


Don't get me wrong, IMHO guns are tools, and just like any other tool have their place. But I am a realist when it comes to the data.

Nice, all stats are useful...

I would like to find statistics that seperate Licensed firearms to unlicensed, but have not found that and the US dont require it, only some states...
In regards to the 2nd amendment, states do have rights to restrict, its been a contentious issue for a long time.. especially to the US firearms rights bodies like the NFA..

Over restriction to everything in this country is causing a lot of the grief and sadly it comes out as violence and anger.. Be nice if people could just be peaceful to each other and get along without being abusive. But alas, that only happens in groups with at least one common interest.

[bob10]

[QUOTE=Wraithe;260429

Now as for the Military weapon shown(F88 semi auto), not my thing, being ex army, I dont like military weapons built in recent times, they have short barrels, low accuracy, and no wood... Give me a .300 WM or a 30/30 and i'm happy...
:)[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised as Army you didn't pay more attention to detail. The weapon posted is called the EF88 in Australian military service. It is manufactured by THALES, the arms company that took over Lithgow Small Arms factory. They call it the F90. It has an automatic function, improved ammunition, state of the art sights, I can't verify the accuracy, I've never fired it. The long barrel is 20 inches long, as explained, the bullpup design allows a short rifle with a longish barrel. I've heard the arguments for a heavier round [ 7.62] regarding hitting power, and range, and they have their merits. As for exporting, THALES is a private International company, and can export their products , just like any other company. As long as there are no restrictions in place. I may not think it ethical, but that's just my opinion, and opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. Any way, don't take my word for it. There is a reasonable article here, page 31

https://issuu.com/contactpublishing/docs/contact47

[PhilipA]

I guess I am a bit sensitive about pressure to stop exporting anything that can kill people as I was directly involved at one stage.

All it will take is the Greens to get wind of this and there will be bleeding hearts emerging from everywhere.

A Labor government caved last time Australia planned to export ammo, but hopefully a coalition government will be more resistant.

Like always when the media gets hold of something like this , it is distorted beyond recognition without consideration of the jobs of the people involved, eg the live cattle ban. I wonder how many people committed suicide as a result of the financial hardship caused and whether the people behind it feel any responsibility. I think Not.
Regards Philip A

[isuzurover]

I guess I am a bit sensitive about pressure to stop exporting anything that can kill people as I was directly involved at one stage.

....

It has all gone a bit crazy these days. Most work I do needs to be checked for compliance with the Defence trade controls act (even though it is unrelated to defence) . When I get software or equipment I have to sign forms saying I won't onsell it to the middle east or use it to design weapons.
I have a guy I am trying to recruit (best applicant out of over 50 people) from overseas. He went to a "military university", so the government have been processing his visa for 9 months.

[squizzyhunter]

Looks like they have made some decent changes and actually listened to feedback. It's always a touchy subject with supplying arms, IMHO I think small arms to a legitimate nation is fine but seems to be politically hypocritical with today's government.

[bob10]

Looks like they have made some decent changes and actually listened to feedback. It's always a touchy subject with supplying arms, IMHO I think small arms to a legitimate nation is fine but seems to be politically hypocritical with today's government.

Supplying arms is a can of worms. Every one does it, the Americans supplied the Taliban, against the Russians,there are examples throughout history. The biggest danger, IMO, is that the arms would end up in the hands of a third party, either by design, or accident. Separatist groups from New Guinea or Bouganville, or even Timor Leste, are some close at hand. But I'm sure the Authorities have that covered.

[Wraithe]

I'm surprised as Army you didn't pay more attention to detail. The weapon posted is called the EF88 in Australian military service. It is manufactured by THALES, the arms company that took over Lithgow Small Arms factory. They call it the F90. It has an automatic function, improved ammunition, state of the art sights, I can't verify the accuracy, I've never fired it. The long barrel is 20 inches long, as explained, the bullpup design allows a short rifle with a longish barrel. I've heard the arguments for a heavier round [ 7.62] regarding hitting power, and range, and they have their merits. As for exporting, THALES is a private International company, and can export their products , just like any other company. As long as there are no restrictions in place. I may not think it ethical, but that's just my opinion, and opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one. Any way, don't take my word for it. There is a reasonable article here, page 31

https://issuu.com/contactpublishing/docs/contact47

Ah Bob, as I stated, not my thing... yes F88 was the original designation to the Styer.. I played with one, before they where issued. Plastic fantastic compared with the steel barreled ones built at Lithgow. 16 inch plastic barrel could handle treatment like nothing else I've seen, why did gov put steel on then? nice toy in urban war fare.. great, but I am not a soldier no more.. I couldnt give a hoot about military style weapons that are basically a limited look alike... If others want them, there choice.. It would be nice to have a functioning leopard tank sitting in the paddock and go to town with, parking problems solved then...

Exporting them is the only solution as our gov seem to think its bad to have guns so we take the ones that few own, and destroy. The ones that keep people happy on weekends, destroyed... They even took kids toys away in recent times. And apparently its illegal to have a lackyband gun, now..

Next will be 4wd, as they destroy nature and kill city people..

Over controlled society, leads to anger, violence and over regulation eventually turning into civil war and destroying the whole of society. But what would I know?

[rangieman]

Ah Bob, as I stated, not my thing... yes F88 was the original designation to the Styer.. I played with one, before they where issued. Plastic fantastic compared with the steel barreled ones built at Lithgow. 16 inch plastic barrel could handle treatment like nothing else I've seen, why did gov put steel on then? nice toy in urban war fare.. great, but I am not a soldier no more.. I couldnt give a hoot about military style weapons that are basically a limited look alike... If others want them, there choice.. It would be nice to have a functioning leopard tank sitting in the paddock and go to town with, parking problems solved then...

Exporting them is the only solution as our gov seem to think its bad to have guns so we take the ones that few own, and destroy. The ones that keep people happy on weekends, destroyed... They even took kids toys away in recent times. And apparently its illegal to have a lackyband gun, now..

Next will be 4wd, as they destroy nature and kill city people..

Over controlled society, leads to anger, violence and over regulation eventually turning into civil war and destroying the whole of society. But what would I know?
Yep and would`nt all those cyclist`s and pedestrians just love it with out those big bull bar clad gear crunching fwd`s to run them over in the city :p
Look what happened in France not too long ago with that Turkey in the truck .
Where is it going to stop with all these happy tree hugger`s wanting to ban everything because someone might flip or have a different motive and hurt one or more people .
Look im all for strict controls on firearm licencing which we already have in place in Australia so really no needed here but the states needs a shake up ;) .

[bob10]

Over controlled society, leads to anger, violence and over regulation eventually turning into civil war and destroying the whole of society. But what would I know?

Yeah, I know mate. Sometimes when I look around it seems the World is going to hell in a hand basket. But then I sit & quietly think about the positives in my life, turns out they outweigh the negatives. But it takes an effort to find them, sometimes. Worth the effort, though. One thing I've learned not to do , is to dwell on the past. Too many negatives. Look to the future, but live for today, is what I try to do. Works for me.

[Wraithe]

You two both hit the nail on the head...
Probably a case of getting old..

Ahh the past, what i'd give to be 21 again...

[Meccles]

You mean your not 21? I thought to be a member of Aulro one of the qualifications was you had to be under 30[emoji1303][emoji3]

[austastar]

.

Ahh the past, what i'd give to be 21 again...

Hi,
What? No nookie, driving an FJ, flat broke, having to do as ordered, barracks life.......... Not for this little black duck.

Cheers



Sent from my GT-N5110 using AULRO mobile app

[Wraithe]

30 Meccles, damn... um, i thought you had to be over 50 to join this group...I knew I should have read the requirements for membership... So some youngsters still like Landy's, damn, that will make them expensive to buy...

austastar, take orders, damn I was always told "Ask and you shall receive", maybe why the Sargeant always got p&*$ed off with me. and I always thought it was because I told him only pusssy's drink beer...

[Meccles]

Yeah well I was 30 once....in the past😀 But seriously would be nice to hear from some young uns say in their 40's...

[Wraithe]

Trouble is, well I have trouble, I still think i'm 21...
Then I say something to a younger person and they say, thats old.. WHAT, IT WAS NEW WHEN I WAS WORKING..
That's when the head says, your getting old...

Like 2 days ago, chattin away "yep, I remember Whitlam getting sacked, whole class was astounded, as we where discussing the constitution at the time"..
Bloke talking with us said, "Who's Whitlam?"

Ooops ummm an ex prime minister!

"Must have been before I was born!"

So obviously they dont teach Australian history any more either...

[bob10]

Yeah well I was 30 once....in the past😀 But seriously would be nice to hear from some young uns say in their 40's...

You are making a mistake if you think you will get much sense from that cohort on social media. We have our childrens' friends over to join our family bbq's often. The only way to get to know people is face to face. And the only way to sense if there are problems is sitting and listening, at the dinner table.