2013 Puma Driveline Slack/"Clunk"?

[Pickles2]

I think this issue has been mentioned before, but I couldn't locate it in a search.
Anyway, we've had Gracie, our 90, for 3 years now, she's our first Defender, and when we bought her we were told Defenders are all different, they rattle they leak all that sort of stuff that you've all heard.
Anyway, even sinse new, Gracie's always had what I would term as slackness/freeplay or whatever in the driveline. It's evident when starting off, during a gearchange, it's difficult to avoid a clunk. It's also noticeable if say your stopped, select reverse, then 1st to move off & ya'll get that sound like a bit of freeplay somewhere.
Gracie has always been like this, she's now done almost 50,000ks, but the other day I drove another Defender, a 110, which didn't appear to have any play/slackness in the driveline at all, so I was just wondering whether what I am experiencing is normal.
Any comments please, Pickles.

[1nando]

Pickles mate,

Could be:
Rear axles
Flanges all round
Gearbox output shaft
Pinion backlash (diff)
Loose suspension bolts (eg a-frame bolts) i had this recently.

Id start by upgrading your rear axles and replacing your flanges all round. More than likely this should go a long way to removing a lot of that slack then work from there


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[roverrescue]

Also add centre differential in t-case to the above list
It will most likely be a combination of multiple areas of wear
All contributing to looseness between your 90 and the 110

S

[Pickles2]

There actually seems to be two different & separate "noises", which happen at different times.
One sounds like a lot of slack/freeplay in somthing like the actual driveline,...unis etc. when changing gears.
The other is a very definite sort of "click", which happens when you reverse, then you stop, place in 1st gear, and as you let the clutch out, there's a sort of "click" from the rear, diff area, as if something is taking up the slack from going from reverse to first?
Pickles.

[1nando]

There actually seems to be two different & separate "noises", which happen at different times.
One sounds like a lot of slack/freeplay in somthing like the actual driveline,...unis etc. when changing gears.
The other is a very definite sort of "click", which happens when you reverse, then you stop, place in 1st gear, and as you let the clutch out, there's a sort of "click" from the rear, diff area, as if something is taking up the slack from going from reverse to first?
Pickles.

The click sound from 1st to reverse was something i experienced and it was loose aframe bolts

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[Beery]

I get that "click/clink" from the rear too. I think its the ball joint on the A frame. Annoying as all getout. LR can sort it out under warranty.

[bemm52]

could be normal LR noise wife's 90 is noisy as you describe (2013)


My 130 (2013) changes gear no different to the 90 but maybe the noise is muted due to distance from drive train,


this is what the dealer said when I raised the question


now well and truly out of warranty but no issues except turbo hose:angry:s both vehicles now silicon


Cheers Paul

[Pickles2]

Thanks guys.
Look, I reckon everything is OK, I haven't noticed any changes in 3 yrs, 50ks, I just want it confirmed that this "normal"'.....before warranty runs out!
Pickles.

[YOLO110]

Thanks guys.
Look, I reckon everything is OK, I haven't noticed any changes in 3 yrs, 50ks, I just want it confirmed that this "normal"'.....before warranty runs out!
Pickles.

If I was you mate, I would raise this as a warantee concern with your dealer.

There response should be to investigate... then possibly replace your rear shafts with 'solid' items at the very least.

Also, how is your clutch... many on here are one there 3rd!!!

Driveline 'slack' is indeed a characteristic of the Defender... however it depends how much is reasonable...?

Good luck!

[debruiser]

hey

my 2013 D90 has a bit of slack in it too, but if you're aware of it and drive smooth it's ok, I'd love to upgrade axles and that but money is a problem. It is on the list; it will jump up the list if I manage to break an axle ;)

I'm on my 2nd clutch, first one was changed under warranty when they did the rear main seal. Not sure if they changed it because it was apart or weather it was on the way out however the new one felt a bit better although a bit sudden for a month or so.

I also think that we 90 drivers are more aware of the noises that the rear end make simply because we are closer to it! just think about those stones that get thrown up against the rear wheel arch and how often you need to stop and change your underwear because of it.

BTW I've got 67000kms on her now.

[D90 orkney]

hey

my 2013 D90 has a bit of slack in it too, but if you're aware of it and drive smooth it's ok, I'd love to upgrade axles and that but money is a problem. It is on the list; it will jump up the list if I manage to break an axle ;)


100% agree with this. I find keeping your revs up and a little more riding of the clutch makes for smoother driving. You also get a great calf work out 🙃

[debruiser]

100% agree with this. I find keeping your revs up and a little more riding of the clutch makes for smoother driving. You also get a great calf work out 🙃

if you call change up at 2200rpm keeping the revs up then yea ok... :p

[D90 orkney]

if you call change up at 2200rpm keeping the revs up then yea ok... :p

Not quite!

Just a couple hundred over what you would consider normal to ease it into gear. It's a bit of an artform driving a defender smoothly

[bent]

My 2013 110 was a bit clunky in the drive line though nothing like my previous 110 thankfully. I had a thrust bearing failure at 19K, replaced under warranty which included the clutch to my surprise.

The clunks almost went away unbelievably. I believe that there is some shimming that can be done when aligning the gearbox to help.

As an aside as the vehicle is nearing end of warranty, I requested that the dealer confirm that the gearbox output shaft was lubricating correctly. To my relief it isn't! Being replaced at the moment, though we are at day six for the job hopefully get the car back tomorrow which will make replacement a 7 day long job - woeful planning and scheduling from the dealer.

I also have started a stoush with Landrover Aus about the seat box material prematurely wearing, going at them for not fit for purpose. It's worth a crack!

Cheers

[Pickles2]

Went to ULR today, spoke to the workshop manager,....who is a Defender legend, when it comes to what is ok & what is not....spent nearly an hour with him,...He is just a lovely man.
I drove the car, got the noises, He drove the car, got the same, said yep they're there, but that's just the way they are, in many examples,..nothing unusual at all....so I'm happy with that,...as long as things are "normal", and the car's not gonna fall apart in a remote location, I'm happy.
Pickles.

[debruiser]

Pickles, you have to admit that in this day and age they could make a drivetrain that doesn't clunk, bang and go on; I mean they can do it for every other car they make.... It's a shame that even the dealers have this attitude of "they are all like that so it's ok" Dont get me wrong I love my defender to bits, but I just think that attitude sucks.

[Lagerfan]

Well another 2013 90 here with all the same experiences described.

Pat on here recommended doing the drive flanges, think it is the 859 as here: Ashcroft Transmissions (http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/drive-flanges.html) but still haven't got around to it. Be interested in anyone's experiences after doing this.

Have kind of got used to it now and just don't really notice but when I do I can't help think it's flogging something that will eventually come back to bite me.

Oh BTW just under 70k now with no issues at all.

[DiscoMick]

I find making sure the clutch is right up before accelerating overcomes the clunk.


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[Pickles2]

Pickles, you have to admit that in this day and age they could make a drivetrain that doesn't clunk, bang and go on; I mean they can do it for every other car they make.... It's a shame that even the dealers have this attitude of "they are all like that so it's ok" Dont get me wrong I love my defender to bits, but I just think that attitude sucks.
Lol. I know what you mean, but my friend was definitely not saying it's "ok",..he was just saying "that's the way they are"!!
If I'd wanted I could've booked Gracie in, got it checked out etc, but He said He's heard these "noises" before, & no matter what one does, sometimes, they're just there!.....I was glad that both He & I could replicate them at the time, it's just so annoying when you can't.
All that I was concerned about really, was that after being stranded with my output shaft, I didn't want to be stranded again, & I've now been told that the two noises I've got, are not going to cause that to happen.
I wouldn't have worried about these noises at all, because they've been there,... sinse new!!... except that last week I drove a friend's Adventure 110, which has no clunks at all, just thought I'd better get Gracie checked out before warranty expiration.
And, of course, I agree with your 1st para!!....I guess that's Defender though, based on a (how old?!) design, could've/should've been updated years ago!!
All is good, Pickles.

[Marty90]

He said He's heard these "noises" before, & no matter what one does, sometimes, they're just there!.....I was glad that both He & I could replicate them at the time, it's just so annoying when you can't.


That's because when you get repairs done at the dealer they replace parts with identical parts. That's why diffs,axles whatever,get done several times.

[1nando]

Lol. I know what you mean, but my friend was definitely not saying it's "ok",..he was just saying "that's the way they are"!!
If I'd wanted I could've booked Gracie in, got it checked out etc, but He said He's heard these "noises" before, & no matter what one does, sometimes, they're just there!.....I was glad that both He & I could replicate them at the time, it's just so annoying when you can't.
All that I was concerned about really, was that after being stranded with my output shaft, I didn't want to be stranded again, & I've now been told that the two noises I've got, are not going to cause that to happen.
I wouldn't have worried about these noises at all, because they've been there,... sinse new!!... except that last week I drove a friend's Adventure 110, which has no clunks at all, just thought I'd better get Gracie checked out before warranty expiration.
And, of course, I agree with your 1st para!!....I guess that's Defender though, based on a (how old?!) design, could've/should've been updated years ago!!
All is good, Pickles.

My 2013 110 has no backlash at all. Dont believe everything the dealer tells you....

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[Pickles2]

My 2013 110 has no backlash at all. Dont believe everything the dealer tells you....

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Some don't, I'm aware of that, but,.......many do!
Pickles.

[dazzler]

Backlash easily removed or greatly reduced, here is what I did on my 2012 110 with 70k and lot of slop:

- Hi-Tuff HD axle and flange upgrade rear (wet lubricated)
- Hi-Tuff flange front
- New clutch (latest rev AP from Ashcroft)
- New wet lubricated output shaft by Ashcroft
- Greese all drive line nipples

With that my truck is a pleasure to drive now(new BAS smooth tune also helps), any residual slop (in the diff)will be removed when I install Ashcroft ATB front and back or may be e-lockers not sure yet.

I personally think these are a must have upgrade on a differ.
Good Luck
pd

[cuppabillytea]

Pickles, what tyre pressure are you running? I find that running a reduced pressure reduces shock through the driveline. It also reduces axil tramp.
Am I wrong or have you already had your adaptor shaft replaced?

[cvhq]

I agree with tyre presure mine clunk worse when presures are not even .My 2010 has allways done this but with smoth driving and equal tyre presure very rearly do i get the knock .I also regularly bleed clutch also seems to help . My drive line is still standard 160000 km on clock.

[1nando]

Pickles i say this for your own good, its only a opinion and with good intentions. If you still have warranty on your vehicle i would take it another dealer and tell them you are not happy with the amount of slack in the driveline.
Your axles are more than likely worn and the flanges need replacing. These vehicles may not have evolved like others have but if they are correctly setup should have minimal backlash. You are welcome to test drive mine if you like, you will think its Japanese like in the way it changes gear.

The dealer doesn't care about you or your vehicle. They see you as a number and future business.

If you dislike this comment i appologize but you have every right to be satisfied with your purchase which you paid good money for and i would tell them I'm not happy with the amount of slack in the drivetrain.



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[Pickles2]

Pickles i say this for your own good, its only a opinion and with good intentions. If you still have warranty on your vehicle i would take it another dealer and tell them you are not happy with the amount of slack in the driveline.
Your axles are more than likely worn and the flanges need replacing. These vehicles may not have evolved like others have but if they are correctly setup should have minimal backlash. You are welcome to test drive mine if you like, you will think its Japanese like in the way it changes gear.

The dealer doesn't care about you or your vehicle. They see you as a number and future business.

If you dislike this comment i appologize but you have every right to be satisfied with your purchase which you paid good money for and i would tell them I'm not happy with the amount of slack in the drivetrain.



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I am not offended a all my friend. You are taking the time to try to help me, so I have no reason at all to be offended.
The W/S manager is a REALLY genuine person, and I mean REALLY, and He LOVES Defenders!!
When we bought Gracie there were a lot of Dealer fitted options to be fitted, which He did HIMSELF to make sure it was done right. He sent us pics whilst this was being done, & requested we come in a couple of times to check what He was doing,..a really lovely guy. He also supervised the oil pump & turbo hose recall,...and I nearly forgot,....the input shaft replacement as well! So all is good with him.
I appreciate your input.
Thank You, Pickles.

[roverrescue]

Pickles one item that cannot easily be checked visually is the centre diff in the t case
JC in tassy has reported that late model t cases had cheaped out on material specs in the centre diff
If your drive flanges and bushes are good and obviously t case input adaptor is good
I would be suspicious of the centre diff being the source of play

S

[cuppabillytea]

That makes a lot of sense. I get no play at all when the centre diff is locked.

[The Cone of Silence]

I love how we all suffer from this at first. When waving at another Defender I always wonder if they still get the slop or if they've sorted it.


For Monty:


Replacing front prop shaft worked for a while but then after a few really serious workouts in the bush it was back.


At the last service, the old rear axles were checked and the splines were all bent out of shape so they were replaced along with heavy duty flanges.


No more slop. For the time being...

[DazzaTD5]

There is a lot of info on Defender TDCi (puma) driveline clunk clunk, do a search it has all been covered before, but to summarise ....

clunk clunk:
*Free play in splines on rear axles and drive flange, poor quality material, poor spline match (FIX: replace with Ashcroft or HTE (brand names) axles / drive flange)
*Poor preload on centre diff assembly from factory (FIX: rebuild centre diff correctly).
*Wear in adapter shaft splines between Ford gearbox and Land Rover transfer case, assembled dry from factory (FIX: replace and lube splines on assembly, can fix a Ashcroft adapter shaft kit)
*(2.4lt) failing clutch assembly, common issue on other Fords with this clutch (FIX: replace clutch assembly, AP brand kit seem good)
*Poor driving style (FIX: release throttle pedal first, then depress the clutch)

If clutch is good, I say to customers to start at the axles / drive flange first and work your way towards the clutch, if clutch needs doing then start at that end...

A couple of vids on the axle spline free play....
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0gnHqbWdUwpq2Qivaj_wbg

Regards
Daz