What the Hijab means to Muslim women

[bob10]

No one really thought to ask.

What the hijab means to me - News from Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2016/11/hijab-means-161121095821929.html?utm_source=Al+Jazeera+English +Newsletter+%7C+Weekly&utm_campaign=67259a04cf-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2016_12_04&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e427298a68-67259a04cf-225425297)

[Tombie]

Another grenade [emoji6] are you ready for what could come of this? [emoji846]

[bob10]

Another grenade [emoji6] are you ready for what could come of this? [emoji846]

I was born ready. And I reserve the right not to converse with bigots. And I refuse to believe , that, in this great country, supposedly a democracy, a Woman in a hijab doesn't have the right to be heard. And I also believe, most who spew their hate, would not have read the article.

[Tombie]

I personally have no issue with a "head scarf".
It still allows identification whilst being modest.

I'm not in agreement with the Burka though.

[67hardtop]

I also have not so many issues with the head scarf wearers, BUT, when they are driving and their side vision is impared by their headwear, and they almost collide with me or others i think it can be a problem.

Anyway their husbands make them wear their headgear coz they aint as pretty as our aussie women....just my sarcastic humour, no bad meaning intended😆😆

Cheers Rod

Sent from my GT-I9507 using AULRO mobile app

[Wraithe]

The Hijab is no different to what a Nun wears... So there is no issue there... Makes practical sense really, especially out bush when its hot, windy and dusty...

Identification with the burka is a lot like wearing a motorbike helmet... But thats not the biggest issue, its the demoralizing of women thats the problem and in Australia it won't be tolerated...

Looks like your going to get only good replies to the Hijab, Bob10

[PhilipA]

AFAIK from my Islam lessons in Saudi and experience in Australia including arranging Halal certification and speaking at an Islamic Congress, Islam only requires that women's hair be covered , and she has covering to the wrists and to the ankles and that the "female Form" must not be evident ie no push up bras. This is usually achieved with a Abaya and head scarf. My wife was never harassed even at the Riyadh souk even if she didn't wear a headscarf except in Ramadan when it was required.

In fact the first example is not fully following the requirements as she has forearms showing.

The Burka is a primitive tribal custom. As I understand it Burka wearing is enforced by older women on younger women as it cuts competition .

Husbands are more unlikely to seek out a younger wife if they cannot see anything. LOL. The Burka wearers in my experience heavily make up their eyes with Kohl to compensate and have the most hip swinging gait that can be imagined.

With regard to the wearing of burkas, I can recall in Saudi , when flying to London, the Burkas were taken off as soon as out of Saudi territory and replaced by Parisien fashions.

I have to laugh at many what I call "bob each way" moslem women in Australia wear a head scarf over the push up bra, short sleeves and skin tight lie down to pull up jeans. NOT Islamic.

Regards Philip A

[bob10]

I personally have no issue with a "head scarf".
It still allows identification whilst being modest.

I'm not in agreement with the Burka though.

I understand that. Our judiciary has a lot of work to do, to legislate a workable system of law that takes into account people who claim that they are not allowed to show their face in a courtroom,because there are men present, because of their religion. I think our society is smart enough to do that. I hope they are. There, and every other situation where identification is required. It will require a culture shift from all sides, I would like to think this Nation is one of the few that could achieve that.

[bob10]

AFAIK from my Islam lessons in Saudi and experience in Australia including arranging Halal certification and speaking at an Islamic Congress, Islam only requires that women's hair be covered , and she has covering to the wrists and to the ankles and that the "female Form" must not be evident ie no push up bras. This is usually achieved with a Abaya and head scarf. My wife was never harassed even at the Riyadh souk even if she didn't wear a headscarf except in Ramadan when it was required.

In fact the first example is not fully following the requirements as she has forearms showing.

The Burka is a primitive tribal custom. As I understand it Burka wearing is enforced by older women on younger women as it cuts competition .

Husbands are more unlikely to seek out a younger wife if they cannot see anything. LOL. The Burka wearers in my experience heavily make up their eyes with Kohl to compensate and have the most hip swinging gait that can be imagined.

With regard to the wearing of burkas, I can recall in Saudi , when flying to London, the Burkas were taken off as soon as out of Saudi territory and replaced by Parisien fashions.

I have to laugh at many what I call "bob each way" moslem women in Australia wear a head scarf over the push up bra, short sleeves and skin tight lie down to pull up jeans. NOT Islamic.

Regards Philip A

That is interesting. As one of the very few of us who has experience in this regard , would you say that different beliefs in the Muslim World, eg Sunni/ Shia , behave differently in this regard. I am like most Australians, I do not understand the muslim World. I think it is important that we try.

[bob10]

The Hijab is no different to what a Nun wears... So there is no issue there... Makes practical sense really, especially out bush when its hot, windy and dusty...

Identification with the burka is a lot like wearing a motorbike helmet... But thats not the biggest issue, its the demoralizing of women thats the problem and in Australia it won't be tolerated...

Looks like your going to get only good replies to the Hijab, Bob10

That is because the majority of members of AULRO are good people.

[Tombie]

Problem is this culture shift blending that is occurring - will end up with no real culture anywhere...

All it will end up being is you live where you like the weather/ view..

Agree with Philip as well, all religions, ALL of them have a "book of rules" so to speak...

It is claimed that if you abide by these, win a free trip to see your Deity of choice... get it wrong or break the rules and one way ticket to torment.

Yet the followers of all these tools of manipulation of the masses tend to pick and choose the bits they wish...
According to the play books that doesn't work!

At the Botanic Gardens the other week..
2 lovely girls, Hijab on, short sleeve tops and shorts, paddling in the creek. Taking selfies and posting to Facebook...

[cuppabillytea]

I don't even have a problem with the Burka, if that is the wearers choice. However I do think that for legal and identity purposes, there should be no right of refusal to remove the face covering.

[bob10]

Problem is this culture shift blending that is occurring - will end up with no real culture anywhere...

All it will end up being is you live where you like the weather/ view..

Agree with Philip as well, all religions, ALL of them have a "book of rules" so to speak...

It is claimed that if you abide by these, win a free trip to see your Deity of choice... get it wrong or break the rules and one way ticket to torment.

Yet the followers of all these tools of manipulation of the masses tend to pick and choose the bits they wish...
According to the play books that doesn't work!

At the Botanic Gardens the other week..
2 lovely girls, Hijab on, short sleeve tops and shorts, paddling in the creek. Taking selfies and posting to Facebook...

Is it fair that we judge them, we don't know the pressure they are under at home. I would like to think they are the future, halfway between our World, and theirs. At the moment, they probably don't have much choice. It is the old men of this World that cause the problems, make the rules. Old men eventually die, and hopefully take their hate with them. Give the children the freedom to make their own decisions, and they will create the future. We in Australia must make sure that happens.

[cuppabillytea]

Problem is this culture shift blending that is occurring - will end up with no real culture anywhere...

All it will end up being is you live where you like the weather/ view..

Agree with Philip as well, all religions, ALL of them have a "book of rules" so to speak...

It is claimed that if you abide by these, win a free trip to see your Deity of choice... get it wrong or break the rules and one way ticket to torment.

Yet the followers of all these tools of manipulation of the masses tend to pick and choose the bits they wish...
According to the play books that doesn't work!

At the Botanic Gardens the other week..
2 lovely girls, Hijab on, short sleeve tops and shorts, paddling in the creek. Taking selfies and posting to Facebook...
Too true. These rules are a great tool for anyone who wishes to radicalise a tribe and recruit an instant army. That is why I think it is simplistic to blame any religion or religion in general for the troubles that ensue in the nam of a religion.
Ethnic hatred, bigotry and the blind ambition of some of the instigators are my usual suspects.
They don't necessarily need religion to accomplish this either. They could start a cult with just about any set of rules, even Science or a Philosophy, such as Rationalism.

[Tombie]

Agree. But for that freedom to be genuine then organised religion has to go...

The play book is just that - it isn't forward thinking - it's Dinosaur thinking... written by superstitious old men in a sexist society that was the Opium capital of the world...

Wear a head scarf because you want, after all Pommie woman wore them in the Sun all the time for skin protection - makes sense...

But the oppressive stuff has to go...

And if you believe that a significant part of religious doctrine and text is outdated then religion itself needs to come to an end..

Believe in creation, Believe in a higher power all you will... (choice)
However the religions created and overseen by man need to come to an end to move forward.

[Tombie]

I don't even have a problem with the Burka, if that is the wearers choice. However I do think that for legal and identity purposes, there should be no right of refusal to remove the face covering.



However that should mean I can go everywhere in a balaclava or full face helmet.

If I did that I'd be stopped in short order...

I certainly wouldn't get a nice reception at a Servo, Bank, McDonalds.... yet those in a fabric letterbox do...

[cuppabillytea]

However that should mean I can go everywhere in a balaclava or full face helmet.

If I did that I'd be stopped in short order...

I certainly wouldn't get a nice reception at a Servo, Bank, McDonalds.... yet those in a fabric letterbox do...

Dead right again. Which probably means that most of us realise, subconsciously or tacitly that the wearing of the Burka is not actually the wearers choice whereas the donning of a Balaclava and Full face Helmet would alert us to suspect motives.

[Tombie]

Not when I pull into my local servo on the bike.
And just want to quickly splash $10 in the tank but have to go through the process of gloves, glasses, helmet off... where as without that bias I would have fuelled up, paid and left in under 5 min..

Or when I'm pulled over and have to remove the helmet to be identifiable.

I'm off to Thailand and where we are going I need to cover my ink, my wife must dress modest.... and that is fair, their country, their culture, their beliefs require my respect.

In Australia there is a culture, not the bogan one, and I see little issue with a similar request from our nation...

If you were looking to move to a different country, and the one you decide on bans alcohol, but you're a Whisky lover and can't go without your tipple. What would you do?
Either give up the Whisky, or seek a country which has a belief/law of land that matches your needs... that needs to apply here...

[Tombie]

Dead right again. Which probably means that most of us realise, subconsciously or tacitly that the wearing of the Burka is not actually the wearers choice whereas the donning of a Balaclava and Full face Helmet would alert us to suspect motives.



What if it was bloody cold..... then a Balaclava is a sensible idea.. [emoji6]

[rangieman]

Not when I pull into my local servo on the bike.
And just want to quickly splash $10 in the tank but have to go through the process of gloves, glasses, helmet off... where as without that bias I would have fuelled up, paid and left in under 5 min..

Or when I'm pulled over and have to remove the helmet to be identifiable.

I'm off to Thailand and where we are going I need to cover my ink, my wife must dress modest.... and that is fair, their country, their culture, their beliefs require my respect.

In Australia there is a culture, not the bogan one, and I see little issue with a similar request from our nation...

If you were looking to move to a different country, and the one you decide on bans alcohol, but you're a Whisky lover and can't go without your tipple. What would you do?
Either give up the Whisky, or seek a country which has a belief/law of land that matches your needs... that needs to apply here...

X2 As the age old saying goes when in Rome do as the Romans do ;) Works for me as pretty much the rest of us id imagine:cool:

[DiscoMick]

I think its amusing that some people complain because other people dress modestly. I'm more offended when women wander around in public with their bits hanging out.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[bob10]

I totally agree with members misgivings about random people not uncovering in places like banks, for example. A solution could be found, if we tried hard enough. Only by working together with the muslim community can this happen.It wouldn't be easy, there are many prejudices and phobias in the way, but I believe we must try. It would be the first step in a long road to peaceful assimilation of these new Australians into our community. [ just like the wogs, dagoes, micks etc , in the past. Remember them?] That's tongue in cheek, by the way. As for religion, I have seen the most devout atheist convert to religion in harms way, if only until the danger has passed.

[PhilipA]

would you say that different beliefs in the Muslim World, eg Sunni/ Shia , behave differently in this regard. I am like most Australians, I do not understand the muslim World. I think it is important that we try.
__________________
I don't have much experience with Shias, but from observation and news reports about Iran, it seems to me that Shias are much more relaxed about women's dress than Sunnis, however you have to remember that Sunni Saudi Arabia is an extreme version of Islam in the Wahabi cult. You see women with colourful scarves and makeup on in clips from Teheran .

Saudi Arabia is really a conglomeration of Bedouin tribes held together by strategic marriages and giveaways by the royal family. Eg when I was there the Royals bought 20000 Toyota Hiluxes and distributed them to the tribes.

Each country seems to have it's own interpretation of Islam eg In Malaysia a guard dog is a great thing as their interpretation is that if they are touched by a dog they have to do ritual washing etc, whereas in Saudi Arabia there are many farm dogs and as long as you don't eat from the same plate it is OK.
AFAIK the increased wearing of headscarves etc and Burkas in Malaysia, is a response to the criticism of the religion in the west. They seem to have adopted a "seige mentality" where their pride in Islam needs to be affirmed.

This "Burka in Court" stuff in Oz is just a cynical attempt to subvert our law and show their contempt for secular law rather than Sharia, and of course a Sydney woman got away with an offence by claiming lack of identity proof.

I think that Burka wearing is a function of deprived education, and maybe social pressure both by older women and men, and reflects a primitive mindset.

You have to remember that in Saudi particularly women are regarded as the temptresses who lead poor stupid men into sin/vice by their manipulating ways , so they have to be controlled by stopping them driving, having separate areas in buses, segregation at swimming pools,and they have to hide their most potent asset which is considered to be their hair.

Regards Philip A

[bob10]

[QUOTE=PhilipA;26167
AFAIK the increased wearing of headscarves etc and Burkas in Malaysia, is a response to the criticism of the religion in the west. They seem to have adopted a "seige mentality" where their pride in Islam needs to be affirmed.

This "Burka in Court" stuff in Oz is just a cynical attempt to subvert our law and show their contempt for secular law rather than Sharia, and of course a Sydney woman got away with an offence by claiming lack of identity proof.



Regards Philip A[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Philip. Seems to me whenever a group of people feel threatened, they circle the wagons, look inward to each other, and it becomes us,& them. From here its not hard for radicals from both sides to hijack the agenda, and the situation can get out of control. I'm sure moderates from both camps are working hard for a solution. The Australian public have to be kept informed on progress in this regard, as do moderate muslims. I have every faith that we will work our way through this, as long as radicals from both sides are kept under control.

[Tombie]

That's the catch.. moderate...

There is no room for moderate in the Old Testament, New Testament or Quran...

Those that pick and choose verse and passage to abide by are fence sitting...

[Pickles2]

That's the catch.. moderate...

There is no room for moderate in the Old Testament, New Testament or Quran...

Those that pick and choose verse and passage to abide by are fence sitting...
"Fence Sitters"?....Yes, PLENTY of them about.......and the Burka is NOT compulsory. We know several Muslims who we have never seen in one.
Pickles.

[bob10]

That's the catch.. moderate...

There is no room for moderate in the Old Testament, New Testament or Quran...

Those that pick and choose verse and passage to abide by are fence sitting...

Now, that is a radical statement. Puts you in their camp.

[DiscoMick]

There are many different interpretations of Muslim practices, so you can't generalize.
Nor can you assume that it is men making women cover up. That happens of course, but there are also plenty of Muslim women who choose to dress modestly, sometimes because they want to protect themselves from being ogled by men.
This idea that other people, particularly men, have the right to tell women how to dress is the problem, I think. After all, if we think it's wrong to tell women to cover up then we have to accept it's also wrong to tell women NOT to cover up.
Why don't we blokes just shut up and let women run their own lives?


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[Tombie]

Now, that is a radical statement. Puts you in their camp.



Bob, you're a learned individual.. have you read the books?

Nothing radical about my statement... it's what the books say that is to the radical end..

There isn't room in them for interpretation so people pick and choose the mild parts where they see fit and ignore what the book(s).

Christianity and Islam both have specific treatment of certain "sins".... the books are very clear...

Just a quick example: Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Now to be VERY CLEAR - I have NO problems what lifestyle choices people make...

But the Book - it's pretty bloody clear on how it should be played out.... Mild? Nope...

[Tombie]

There are many different interpretations of Muslim practices, so you can't generalize.
Nor can you assume that it is men making women cover up. That happens of course, but there are also plenty of Muslim women who choose to dress modestly, sometimes because they want to protect themselves from being ogled by men.
This idea that other people, particularly men, have the right to tell women how to dress is the problem, I think. After all, if we think it's wrong to tell women to cover up then we have to accept it's also wrong to tell women NOT to cover up.
Why don't we blokes just shut up and let women run their own lives?


Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app



Agree, and yet in Australia as an example we have archaic laws on females being topless [emoji6]

Many will choose not to do so anyway (at the beach etc) but if they do they can be charged with an offence... heck, just go back and see what women (Christian) were expected to wear to the beach!!!

Men have set many ridiculous rules in place to cover their insecurities and inabilities to control themselves...

[bob10]

Bob, you're a learned individual.. have you read the books?

Nothing radical about my statement... it's what the books say that is to the radical end..

There isn't room in them for interpretation so people pick and choose the mild parts where they see fit and ignore what the book(s).

Christianity and Islam both have specific treatment of certain "sins".... the books are very clear...

Just a quick example: Lev. 20:13:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Now to be VERY CLEAR - I have NO problems what choices people make...

But the Book - it's pretty bloody clear on how it should be played out.... Mild? Nope...

No one I know would take it that literally. Not even the Micks. But I get your point. Those sort of books should not be taken as instruction manuals.It's like having a Haynes manual, RAVE, and your own experience , and going with the Haynes alone. That's a thought, who would be the radicals in the Land Rover religion.

[bob10]

I'll answer my own question, it just came to me. Defender drivers of course. And they wear a distinctive uniform, old hat, beard, and tanned right elbow.And a practised disdain for lesser mortals, driving discoveries. And those heretics driving Japanese cars, don't even get a wave.

[Tombie]

What's quite sad is that the Quran is very peaceful in the front end... and very violent in the later sections..

A passage that states that any statement made after previous statements on a subject overwrites the former...

If the peaceful section was all it was it would be a very gentle belief system.. as it stands it's very aggressive..

Similarly passages of the Bible (although not linear as the Quran) are gentle and others more violent...

Christianity has certainly butchered the texts to suit causes and situations over time with some treated as literal and others a metaphor- interestingly all depending on how the person using them needs to manipulate a situation.

I know not many will run around Stoning people to death nowadays, people generally have evolved.. and laws certainly now frown upon it in most Western cultures....So what is technically/factually right?

Evolved sensibility says we shouldn't run around chucking rocks at people... or beheading infidels... But that is exactly what passages of the "rule books" tell followers to do...

Why is it many people blindly follow the scribbled tales of superstitious old men from 2000+ years ago (or a little later for Mohammed) yet would completely dismiss anyone from 2016 claiming to be a Prophet?

The simple nature of the human mind is that people when confronted with situations they can not explain will make up something to fit the model/situation.

Kids noises under bed - monsters for example..
Santa - brings joy whilst manipulating kids into behaving better..

With Santa, we let the story play out until they realise the ludicrous nature of such a tale.. all the while indoctrinating them each week at a place of worship or a private school....

The difference between a religion and a cult (not all are evil)?
One has tax free status [emoji12]

[Tombie]

Oh and Bob,

Thank you for such interesting topics and discussions. I appreciate your point of view..

Cheers

[bob10]

No worries Tombie. BTW, some letters explaining Santa. They explain a few other things as well.

4 Heartwarming Letters to Explain Santa to Your Kids - DIY & Crafts (http://www.diyncrafts.com/9189/lifehacks/4-heartwarming-letters-explain-santa-kids)

[Tombie]

Thanks Bob, a good read.... and clever on the parts of those parents...

Perhaps a thread on the Pagan ritual of December is in order for more fun discussion... [emoji12]

[bob10]

Thanks Bob, a good read.... and clever on the parts of those parents...

Perhaps a thread on the Pagan ritual of December is in order for more fun discussion... [emoji12]

You mean the Myer's xmas sale?

[cuppabillytea]

What if it was bloody cold..... then a Balaclava is a sensible idea.. [emoji6]
Fair enough.

X2 As the age old saying goes when in Rome do as the Romans do ;) Works for me as pretty much the rest of us id imagine:cool:

What about when in Greece? :eek:

[Tombie]

Fair enough.





What about when in Greece? :eek:



Solvol [emoji41] - oh... wrong Grease [emoji48]

[cuppabillytea]

Tombie. The day you yearn for will come. there was a lot of progress made last Century. This Century is off to a slow start. The old superstitions and bigotry will eventually fade as the world becomes more educated. We'll get there. Hopefully before mankind has outlived it's usefulness and vanishes forever.

[bob10]

Why, blessed are the Greeks, for they shall inherit the Earth.This scene pans out like some AULRO threads.

https://youtu.be/RpkWT5voTSE

https://youtu.be/9foi342LXQE?list=RDRpkWT5voTSE

[cuppabillytea]

Solvol [emoji41] - oh... wrong Grease [emoji48]

Absolutely the wrong grease when in Greece.:toilet:

[Tombie]

Tombie. The day you yearn for will come. there was a lot of progress made last Century. This Century is off to a slow start. The old superstitions and bigotry will eventually fade as the world becomes more educated. We'll get there. Hopefully before mankind has outlived it's usefulness and vanishes forever.



Thanks mate..

Although I do ponder... Has mankind ever been useful?

Which circles around to that question... Why are we?

I like the MIB marbles theory!

[cuppabillytea]

Thanks mate..

Although I do ponder... Has mankind ever been useful?

Which circles around to that question... Why are we?

I like the MIB marbles theory!

I don't know about the Aliens but I'm certain the Mosquitos find us useful.
I'm told however that Science has yet to find a use for the Mosquito.

[DiscoMick]

I don't know about the Aliens but I'm certain the Mosquitos find us useful.
I'm told however that Science has yet to find a use for the Mosquito.

Mosquitoes fertilize cocoa plants so we get chocolate. I like chocolate.

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[ozscott]

I understand that. Our judiciary has a lot of work to do, to legislate a workable system of law that takes into account people who claim that they are not allowed to show their face in a courtroom,because there are men present, because of their religion. I think our society is smart enough to do that. I hope they are. There, and every other situation where identification is required. It will require a culture shift from all sides, I would like to think this Nation is one of the few that could achieve that.
Parliament Bob.

Cheers

[squizzyhunter]

Mate I would love to meet some of these Ancient Middle eastern women that made a whole group of society's insecure about their sexuality and manliness.
They must have been wild raving nymphs that could never be kept as a "good wife" and need to hidden away. Bring those lovely wild temptresses back and I promise the societal integration will never be a problem again there would be welcoming committees at every outer reef 👍👍

[bob10]

Parliament Bob.

Cheers

The last person to enter Parliament with honest intentions was Guy Fawkes.[ not my quote]



https://www.facebook.com/guyfawkesrevolt/photos/a.399897414603.175695.318151134603/10154897078474604/'type=3

[cuppabillytea]

Mosquitoes fertilize cocoa plants so we get chocolate. I like chocolate.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

I didn't know that. I'll never swat a mozzie again, even if it means a dose of Impetigo.
The MIB might be involved after all.

[bob10]

Some one in the Australian media making sense , instead of mind numbing sensationalism, what's going on?

Why Australia needs a debate on the burqa ban | The New Daily (http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2016/12/07/burqa-ban-australia/?utm_source=Responsys&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20161208_TND)