Bypassing Traction Control

[Longtimer]

G'Day Gents,

Anyone put a switch into their Puma to allow the turning of of the traction control?

Any problems???


I am getting sick of fighting my way up a sand dune or sand track, and having the smell of red hot brakes greet you when you open the door at the top. :mad:


I was thinking of either fitting a switch in my dash, inline after the fuse. Or. Fitting the switch to the dash, and running a relay from it to control the power to the TC. It is a 30A fuse after all.

I also want a flashing red light when the TC is turned of. Just to remind me.... :)



You thoughts Gents?

[Tombie]

If you're fighting it your tyre pressures are incorrect...

TC has been in Defenders for over 16 years now and if pressures suit terrain it isn't a problem.

[Xtreme]

I've been driving a Defender with traction control for 14 years now and have never had "red hot brakes" or any other problem with it - four Simpson crossings plus numerous beach drives.

Spinning wheels will take you nowhere so you need to drive in such a manner that you avoid making the wheels spin. And if they do then, instead of the normal reaction of planting your right foot, you need to back off the go pedal and you'll find that you'll usually regain traction and continue your progress. But best to drive in such a manner that you don't incur wheelspin in the first place. ;)

It takes a bit of experience but with the correct tyre pressures (as Toombie said), sufficient momentum and the avoidance of wheelspin you'll begin to appreciate and enjoy the Defender's capabilities a lot more.

Give it a go - you might surprise yourself and also any onlookers. :D

[Surrufus]

I thought the Pumas had TC switches from the factory. I know my MY16 does.
And the TC turns itself back on every time you stop and start the engine.

[TimNZ]

I thought the Pumas had TC switches from the factory. I know my MY16 does.
And the TC turns itself back on every time you stop and start the engine.

That'll be the "Dynamic Stupidity Control". You'll find yourself bogged in short order if you forget to turn this off.

Cheers,

[mwbrydon]

Get a 130. :angel: :wasntme:

[Longtimer]

I don't normally have many problems with hot brakes, except on the really loose sand hills that are chopped to the ****-house.

On those, if you aren't going fast enough, you are not getting up them. They are simply too long and steep. And, you have to use your right foot to try to maintain momentum to a large extent. In 2nd high, once you go below 20kmh you are almost buggered. But that also means that you get wheel spin, regardless of tyre pressure, as you go across the tops of a cross pitted track.
If your tyres are too low, you can't safely cross them fast enough to maintain momentum to get up the hill. Too hard and you only get wheel spin and go nowhere.

Therefore, you have to accept some wheel spin. And that means your traction control will grab hold of all wheels in it's effort to eliminate wheel spin. The problem starts with it not reacting fast enough to the changes in which wheel is spinning. Effectively braking 4 wheels.

Now, I do admit to liking a challenge, so the harder the dune to get up, the more likely I am to try to go up it. When there is 50m to 250m of cross pitting on a sand dune/hill, you get really hot brakes.... Once clear of the cross pitting the rest of the climb is comparatively easy.

I easily climbed Calcup hill 2 weekends ago, with 12 psi, but had stinking brakes at the top. And so did the other Defenders, Disco's, & Rangie, that had traction control. As a group, we ranged from 8 to 15psi (Rangie) in our tyres. You can't not break traction on that hill.

Hence why I wondered if any one had bypassed the traction control for just such sand hills.

[roverrescue]

Sounds to me like you should pop an ATB in your rear diff
The rear will be loaded up going up a dune
An ATB will give more definitive traction at the rear and save the TC work out for the front axle

S

[scarry]

You will find without the TC you won't be getting far in the soft stuff.

My sons had the TC disabled due to a fault with a wheel sensor on Fraser Island a while back,and the vehicle was nowhere near as capable as it was while it was working.

[Xtreme]

Calcup Hill is a 25m climb over a distance of 2kms. Next time you're out there I'd suggest you try 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear low range and see how you go.

I've seen people hit the bottom of Big Red at 80kph and dig themselves in with wheels spinning madly before cresting the top. Last time I was at Big Red I watched a few doing this before I walked the Td5 Defender up in 3rd gear low range with very little wheel spin at all. One of the guys in our group stopped part way up then restarted and also walked over the top. A comment from some onlookers at the time was "Is there anything these Land Rovers can't do?"

[101RRS]

Therefore, you have to accept some wheel spin. And that means your traction control will grab hold of all wheels in it's effort to eliminate wheel spin. Effectively braking 4 wheels.


Sorry but TC does not work like that something else is going on. TC does not stop a wheel just because it is spinning - it brakes a wheel that is turning faster than its sibling so if all 4 wheels are spinning at about the same speed - TC will not kick in.

As mentioned - does your vehicle have Stability Control as most other newer landies have? If so this is normally the culprit and needs to be turned off when on slow offroad. If no Stability Control then comments early in the tread apply.

But if all 4 wheels are spinning, unless they are spinning at greatly differing speeds then TC will not kick in.

[ozrob]

Calcup Hill is a 25m climb over a distance of 2kms. Next time you're out there I'd suggest you try 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear low range and see how you go.

I've seen people hit the bottom of Big Red at 80kph and dig themselves in with wheels spinning madly before cresting the top. Last time I was at Big Red I watched a few doing this before I walked the Td5 Defender up in 3rd gear low range with very little wheel spin at all. One of the guys in our group stopped part way up then restarted and also walked over the top. A comment from some onlookers at the time was "Is there anything these Land Rovers can't do?"
I did Big Red last year with no issues first attempt, hardly noticed the TC light come on at all, I got to the top and my mate in a Patrool was impressed. My TC only comes on when I fail to lock in the center diff.
I thought Big Reg would be big, bit of a letdown after watching the Dakar and seeing the dunes in South America.

[Xtreme]

I did Big Red last year with no issues first attempt, hardly noticed the TC light come on at all, I got to the top and my mate in a Patrool was impressed. My TC only comes on when I fail to lock in the center diff.
I thought Big Reg would be big, bit of a letdown after watching the Dakar and seeing the dunes in South America.

Big Red has had about 20m removed/flattened from the top between 1983 and 2003. When I crossed in 1983 it had an almost knife edge crest whereas in 2003 and also now you could park 100 vehicles up there. :o A mere shadow of it's former challenging self.

There are other ridges in the Simpson that are higher than Big Red and IMHO more deserving of the name.

[Longtimer]

Calcup Hill is a 25m climb over a distance of 2kms. Next time you're out there I'd suggest you try 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear low range and see how you go.

I've seen people hit the bottom of Big Red at 80kph and dig themselves in with wheels spinning madly before cresting the top. Last time I was at Big Red I watched a few doing this before I walked the Td5 Defender up in 3rd gear low range with very little wheel spin at all. One of the guys in our group stopped part way up then restarted and also walked over the top. A comment from some onlookers at the time was "Is there anything these Land Rovers can't do?"

25m climb?
It may be 2 Km long, but you really have no idea of what you are talking about. the last section is where all the angle is. It's not like it seems from your computer chair.
If you are game, you can come over and do the hill one summer. I'll even take you there, and, show you how it can be done and made to look easy.
And, you could always escape from Bornholme Beach via the old track while you are here. I do it. Lets see how you go.

Making judgement calls from your computer chair isn't to bright. Nor very well mannered.

[Longtimer]

Sorry but TC does not work like that something else is going on. TC does not stop a wheel just because it is spinning - it brakes a wheel that is turning faster than its sibling so if all 4 wheels are spinning at about the same speed - TC will not kick in.

As mentioned - does your vehicle have Stability Control as most other newer landies have? If so this is normally the culprit and needs to be turned off when on slow offroad. If no Stability Control then comments early in the tread apply.

But if all 4 wheels are spinning, unless they are spinning at greatly differing speeds then TC will not kick in.

You seem to have taken my statement out of context.
Perhaps you could re read it, in it's entirity.

If you don't understand what I have said, feel free to ask for clarity. I will happily use different words to try to clear up any miss understanding.

And no, I don't have stability control. Thankfully.

[DiscoMick]

If you're spinning wheels you might be using too much throttle. I find getting momentum up before hitting the sand and then easing off the throttle makes it easier for the tyres to grip and so reduces wheelspin.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[roverrescue]

Just to put the place on the map
See attached
200m climb over 2200m

Interestingly the same 1:10 gradient as the sand hill off 14mile beach at Cape Flattery - but callcup is twice as long
Ouch!

I still think a rear ATB will be your hero


S

[fitzy]

Seconds out . Round 2

[101RRS]

You seem to have taken my statement out of context.
Perhaps you could re read it, in it's entirity.

If you don't understand what I have said, feel free to ask for clarity. I will happily use different words to try to clear up any miss understanding.

And no, I don't have stability control. Thankfully.

Sorry - I read your post in its entirety before responding - if you meant to say something else then you need to explain further - I stand by my comments.

[Longtimer]

You will find without the TC you won't be getting far in the soft stuff.

My sons had the TC disabled due to a fault with a wheel sensor on Fraser Island a while back,and the vehicle was nowhere near as capable as it was while it was working.


Thanks for this Scarry.
But now I have some questions. :)

Are you talking about just when he is sand driving? Because that is the only time I would turn mine off.

Just so you understand where I am coming from;
For everything else I was intending on leaving the TC on. In fact, I was intending to leave it on for most sand work too. But, for those chopped up challenges that nobody seems to be able to get up, I thought it might be better turned off. And rather than pull the fuse, I thought it would be better to fit a switch.
Plus, I can always remove the switch if it proves to cause more problems than it's worth.


Though, now that I have seen the data on the Ashcroft ATB.... I think I want 2. :-) And for the price, it would be probably worth it.

[Tombie]

The ATB is a brilliant bit of kit.

[Longtimer]

Just to put the place on the map
See attached
200m climb over 2200m

Interestingly the same 1:10 gradient as the sand hill off 14mile beach at Cape Flattery - but callcup is twice as long
Ouch!

I still think a rear ATB will be your hero


S




The first section seemed reasonably easy, with getting of the beach being the hardest bit. The real climb is on the second leg. The second leg starts just before the 1Km mark, at the 90? bend. This is where everyone get's their run up to tackle the super loose sand on that section. It is also chopped up pretty bad. There is also a limestone outcrop on the left side of the track at the kink, just after the 1.0 Km marker, that the ruts in the track will try to flick you into when you are flying along. But what stops you on this hill is that the sand gets looser the further you go up. There seems to be nothing binding it together, and it's too course to blow away. But that is what makes it a challenge. :)


I had a look at the Ashcroft ATB, and I can only say I now know what I want for Christmas..... :)

Thanks for putting me onto them Roverrescue. :)

I suppose now I need to justify them in my budget..... How long do the Rover diff's last? (I assume that is what is under my Puma 90.) If they normally only last 100K then I only have 12K to go. :( :) :D

[roverrescue]

Now ya talking!
If it was my money I'd buy a rear and LT230 ATB over rear and front
Or he'll - its Christmas grab all three ;)

Steve

[roverrescue]

Long timer
Putting an ATB into the rover diffs by a competent installer ensures the mesh of the crown and pinion is good - hopefully lengthening their lifespan
The LT 230 diff on the other hand can be a problem child - replacing it with an ATB is a permanent and good improvement

Steve

[Longtimer]

Sorry - I read your post in its entirety before responding - if you meant to say something else then you need to explain further - I stand by my comments.


To maintain momentum on steep sand inclines requires you to go at a certain speed, in relation to the condition of the sand.

Where it has been chopped up and cross pitted, so that you are cross axleing (have I invented a new word here???), you are faced with a choice. Go slow and maintain maximum traction, and not be able to get up the hill. Or. Go fast enough that you are effectively skimming the tops of them, maintain speed and get up the hill.
When you are going fast, the wheels that are on the high points aren't spinning (opposite sides front and back). But the other 2 are. So the TC kicks in and applies the brakes to those two wheels. As we continue our slow motion timeline, now the braked wheels become the wheels on the high points, so the other wheels are now spinning. The TC applies the brakes to the other wheels as it releases the pressure on the first wheels. But the brakes haven't released from the first set yet. This process happens again and again, very quickly. Too quickly for the brakes to release from the disks. Effectively, this applies the brakes to all 4 wheels at once, because it happens all to fast for the TC and brakes too respond.

It is a similar process that does it, when your tyre pressures are too high in flat soft sand, and your tyres spin. The cross axleing is measured in mm, but the effect is the same. So there you are. You haven't gone far, and you're not really stuck, but you can smell the hot brakes. :(

So, when you decide to go fast enough to float over the chopped up sand hill track, you will get some wheel spin. It's inevitable. And as you are going fast and hitting lumps in the track, your tyre pressures need to be higher. And if it's cross pitted, you will get the brakes applying to all 4 wheels at once.
The cross pitted tracks are caused by multi vehicles amplifying the slipping of the first vehicle's wheels, by also slipping it's wheels on the way down each little lump while under power.

Did any of that clear it up? I know I got side tracked a couple of times there, but it's all relevant. I hope. :-)

[Ferret]

When I owned a D2 I would always turn off traction control going up Calcup Hill. I was not the only one felt the need to do it in those circumstances either.

[DiscoMick]

I would have thought turning off the TC so there are open diffs would have made it more, not less, likely you would get stuck. It has certainly gotten me out of trouble numerous times.
I'm a big fan. I think the TC plus anti-stall in our 2009 Defender is more effective than the rear auto locker plus open front diff in our previous D1.

Sent from my SM-G900I using AULRO mobile app

[Ferret]

Traction control is off but CD still locked. Can be done on D2

[scarry]

Thanks for this Scarry.
But now I have some questions. :)

Are you talking about just when he is sand driving? Because that is the only time I would turn mine off.

Just so you understand where I am coming from;
For everything else I was intending on leaving the TC on. In fact, I was intending to leave it on for most sand work too. But, for those chopped up challenges that nobody seems to be able to get up, I thought it might be better turned off. And rather than pull the fuse, I thought it would be better to fit a switch.
Plus, I can always remove the switch if it proves to cause more problems than it's worth.


Though, now that I have seen the data on the Ashcroft ATB.... I think I want 2. :-) And for the price, it would be probably worth it.

Yes sand driving only,two open diffs,centre locked, is nowhere near as capable as with the TC working.

It was repaired after the trip,so didn't have a chance to use it anywhere else.

Anyway,easy to sort out,pull the fuse or whatever,give it a go in the soft stuff and report back:D;)

[Xtreme]

Apologies for the typo in post #10 - should have been 250m instead of 25m. I don't know what happened to the '0'.

There is obviously two factors that are impeding your progress on Callcap, excessive braking by the TC and loss of traction caused by wheelspin.

If you continue to drive as you have now described in detail in various posts, then switching off the TC will result in easier/better progress as you will have eliminated one of the two impediments to your forward progress - namely the excessive application of your brakes by the TC.
Reducing or eliminating the other impediment to your progress is however, entirely up to the driving style of the person behind the wheel.

I look forward to reading the results of your future runs at Callcap. ;)

[Longtimer]

Roger,

I won't be down at Calcup for a while.
But there are plenty of other challenging sand dunes/hills here in WA. :D

But if you come over to the South West, make sure you do Calcup and the Yeagerup Dunes (which I don't know why everyone reckons they are hard). Or if you like the extreme challenges, try to escape from Bornholm beach, in summer, up the old track.

But I will definitly let everyone know how it performs on some dunes (unfortunately not hard) over the Christmas break. :) What a great opportunity to compare the TC on and off. On the same hills of course :)


Cheers,

Phill.