Review of (an idiots guide to) puma engine oil

[Toxic_Avenger]

Confusion abounds. It appears opinions on engine oil selection for the puma is like an arsehole- everybody has one. I've attempted to pull together info from a number of threads regarding Puma oil, in the hope to get some sense out the other end. Sadly, I don't think I've yet seen the light. Please feel free to discuss, as most of the info I've come across in 'the good oil', and via google custom AULRO searches is a bit dated.


From what I've read- and please correct me if I'm wrong:

Owners manual says Castrol SAE 5W30 (And that's it)
I think we can all agree that, aside from cost, more frequent oil and filter changes are better than less frequent changes. Synthetic oils have a better stability / service life over non synthetic oils.
DPF is not fitted to 2.4 Tdci defenders in Aus. Not sure about the 2.2 Tdci- whether it was fitted in later models (My 2012 is immune -blanking bung present on the top of the exhaust manifold).
DPF stipulates the higher and more costly oil grades the -C designated oil (see below).
This thread, (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/106283-puma-engine-oil-specs.html) and by interpolation, This post (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/173358-whats-your-oil-post1927685.html) Mentions 'Ford' Spec WSS-M2C913-B compliant oils. Also worth noting that the WSS-M2C913-C spec oil shown here (http://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-1251-wss-m2c-913-c.aspx) is backwards compatible with engines requiring the B spec.
I'm led to believe the WSS-M2C934-B oil is for DPF fitted vehicles? Would using this be overkill for a non DPF fitted vehicle?
Blowing the model out to all models of defender, this list (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/110486-oils-can-we-set-up-definitive-list.html) is useful for grades and volumes, but not up to date. Maybe a job for someone to review? Notably, oil volume is stated at 6.3L on the above link, but 7L in owners manual and Castrol dealer site. FYI, MIN to MAX on dipstick on the puma is 2L capacity according to owners manual.
Multiple sources here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1263963-post2.html), and here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1264027-post4.html), suggest Castrol Magnatec 5W40 (going against LR oil viscosity recommendations). Castrol SLX professional 5w/30 OE (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1563403-post6.html) is suggested to be a VW spec oil, and has a higher SAPS rating than the Castrol edge professional C1 5W30. This chap (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1264279-post7.html) is running Castrol Edge 0W40.
MR Auto was/is running Valvoline Syntec 5W40 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1269067-post8.html).
And then there's the Penrite brigade, ENVIRO+ 0W-40 or 5W-40 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1287104-post9.html), and HPR Diesel 5 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1287133-post10.html) . To add confusion above all, there's Pennzoil 5w40 full synth or Shell Ultra 5w30 full synth (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/1287195-post11.html). Even Mobil Delvac 1 (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/2292443-post7.html) gets a mention in this short thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/212571-what-engine-oil-2-2-puma.html).
I live in an area where summer days can push well past 40, and winter mornings are in the negatives. My defender is not a daily drive, but when I do drive it, it's usually either highway Km's or bush tracks at low speed, idling around tracks. If I drive it locally, its usually sub 5km trips, barely enough to get it to operating temps, but I try to limit this kind of driving for wear and tear reasons (I have another car for this, jump right in and give it a bit of redline for a good time!). So interested in the 5W30 vs 5W40 weight debate- where the 40 weigt oil is better suited to higher ambient / operating temps.


So, help a brother out? I think Castrol Edge Professional C1 5W-30 is the best I have to go off as 'THE' oil, as mentions in this thread (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137518-best-engine-oil-puma.html). Price and availability may dictate otherwise, as I'm not pushing the oil service life as far as LR may expect me to.

[roverrescue]

Toxic
I played this game earlier in the year - attached is what I came up with
Mine is 2010 2.4L - this drum delivered to me in
Bum-****-nowhere was $225

Of all your listed this was the only Castrol product available that met specs in FNQ ????

Steve

[Tombie]

Supercheap will get the Castrol C1 in for you as well for $225

[Toxic_Avenger]

I think I can read the WSS-M2C913-C spec on the drum. What's hard to know without a PhD in chem eng is how each brand of oil is different, and how different addatives etc make an oil better suited to different driving conditions. I must admit, in the past (for other cars) I've always bought oil based on the grade, and how gold / shiney the oil bottle was at repco :cool:

So I guess as long as it's 5W 30, and meets the WSS-M2C913-C spec for use with a non DPF vehicle, should be right eh?

[Tombie]

Yep. And the C spec is a safe bet

[Toxic_Avenger]

This one Tombie?

http://www.tds.bp.com.au/pdf/10704_Edge%20Professional%20C1%205W-30%20.pdf

Seems to be the higher spec for DPF fitted vehicles as per this post (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137518-best-engine-oil-puma-3.html#post2540759).

[roverrescue]

Toxic
My Castrol distributor could only source that grade
The lower spec non dpf was not available ? Ymmv.

Castrol people seem to like the product number to search on 3369740

Steve

[Toxic_Avenger]

Found this, showing some part numbers
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/55745d1358503627-best-engine-oil-puma-p1180753.jpg
(Source) (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137518-best-engine-oil-puma-2.html#post1839295) Cost guide- about 380 clams delivered

And this
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/90-110-130-defender-county/58614d1365143767-best-engine-oil-puma-castrol.jpg
(Source) (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/137518-best-engine-oil-puma-2.html#post1887924) Cost guide- TBA (but less than Castrol edge, as not full synthetic).

[roverrescue]

My Castrol distributor could source neither of those options above?
Hence why ended up with what I did

If you get to look at a complete Castrol listing for 5W30 oils for diesos you will fall off your chair! My distributor however could not source all items on that list?

I just concentrated on the Ford specification - and went a little bonkers in the process

S

[mrs]

Had a good chat with a Castrol rep re oil for my TD5 and his comment was that A spec is more fore American and Japanese diesels, B is euro diesels non DPF and C is Euro with DPF. The TD5 and Puma both would be considered Euro Diesels

[roverrescue]

How can a continent dictate an oil blend?
As best as I can find the Ford tdci "puma" engine plant is in Turkey? What continent is that?
The MT82 gear bag is imade in Liverpool?

I think your best bet is to just follow manufacturers spec not an oil guy?
For the tdci engine the specification is:
Ford WSS M2C 913 B or C depending on dpf
Trouble is lots of different oils meet that spec and it becomes choose your poison

S

[MrLandy]

Had a good chat with a Castrol rep re oil for my TD5 and his comment was that A spec is more fore American and Japanese diesels, B is euro diesels non DPF and C is Euro with DPF. The TD5 and Puma both would be considered Euro Diesels

Except that a ford engine is not a euro diesel.

I know there is a supposedly a correct oil to use, but the vehicle manual simply says Castrol 5W30. Any of those 3 Castrol Professional 5W30's listed would be fine i assume. Im no oil expert but if Castrol suppliers cant even tell the difference maybe there is no real difference between them?

The two different tin labels above for A5 Professional, say they meet Ford WSS M2C 913 C.

[PAT303]

The TDCi is designed and manufactured in the UK,unless someones moved it the UK is still in Europe.:p. Pat

[roverrescue]

Pat
Best I can find online the Ford engine plant that makes the tdci is in turkey

S

[Tombie]

Simples. Ring dealer. Ask what they use.
Hang up.
Ring distributor and order a can!

[BigBlueOne]

You can get the correct oil spec from most brands, valvoline, nulon, penrite etc at all the local auto shops. Some come in 5-30 and others 5-40 but all meet the requirements.

Some truck spares shops sell the correct oil also. I got a 20l drum of Castrol magnatec A5 5-30 with the correct spec from south coast truck spares in NSW for under $200 delivered in Perth by the local Castrol rep.

I'll order a 1l bottle from opies oils in the UK and that's 3 oil changes done.

Cheers

[scarry]

No DPF,you can use valvoline Synpower FE 5w 30.

Suits disco 4 2.7 as well.

Found at any Supercheap,Autobarn,5 litre containers.

It is also what MR auto were using.

[Toxic_Avenger]

So to clarify, the FORD spec for puma (Tdci) with/without DPF is:
SAE 5W-30 engine oil (With DPF) -----> 5W/30 - WSS-M2C934-B
SAE 5W-30 engine oil (Without DPF) ----->5W/30 - WSS-M2C913-B or C (C is backwards compatible with B)

The ford spec is different to the euro ACEA specs. Ford spec is just an endorsement of compatability. ACEA spec is the equivalent to the American API authority, although they use different grading systems.

From general consensus, Ideally the chosen oil should be a ACEA 'C1' spec oil (Low SAPS) for use with DPF, but not a concern for non-DPF vehicles, where a B series oil will do. SAPS is the Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur content- These were traditional lubricant additives in years past, but can cause issues with clogging/ damaging the DPF, hence on ACEA C class oils, this lubricity comes from other additives.

Interesting diagram below
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/12/432.jpg
Sauce (https://www.rymax-lubricants.com/news/acea-specification-this-is-how-it-works/) NB the Ax designator relates to petrol, Bx designates diesel. The C rating is for catalyst compatability.

Also of note, the HTHS (High Temperature, High Shear) viscosity.
This source (http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/latest-tech-bulletins/hths-tech-bulletin-september-2012/) states:
HTHS is a measure of how well oil protects in the toughest environments your engine creates- areas where the temperature is highest and the friction is the greatest. Lower HTHS viscosity generally means a thinner oil which can improve fuel economy by reducing the amount of horsepower required to pump it throughout the engine. But a lower HTHS viscosity also usually comes at the expense of wear protection.

I presume C1 is preferred (Low HTHS), as the euro diesel valvetrain, pump and other accessores would (I hope) require, and benefit from the viscosity profile of this grade.
As with anything relating to the ACEA standards, probably best to go to the ACEA Website (http://www.acea.be/) with any specific queries.

[twr7cx]

Wow, glad to hear that I'm not alone in being confused by the engine oil for the Puma motor. I tried looking up this morning what to use in our 2011 2.4.

What I did note is that the following is recomended by brands online lube guides:
Penrite ENVIRO+ C4 5W-30 (Full Synthetic) < ENVIRO+ C4 5W-30 (Full Synthetic) (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_brand=2&id_products=306) >
Valvoline SynPower ENV C1 Synthetic Engine Oil 5W-30 < ENV C2 | Engine OIl | Full Synthetic | Valvoline | Valvoline.com.au (http://www.valvoline.com.au/explore-our-products/all-products/engine-oil/passenger-car-motor-oil/synpower-env-c1-synthetic-engine-oil) >
Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5W-30 < Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5W-30 | Shell Australia (http://www.shell.com.au/motorists/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-fully-synthetic/shell-helix-ultra-professional-af-5w-30.html) > - they're Premium recommendation.
Shell Helix HX7 SN 10W-30 < Shell Helix HX7 SN 10W-30 | Shell Australia (http://www.shell.com.au/motorists/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-semi-synthetic/shell-helix-hx7-sn-10w-30.html) > - they're Standard recommendation.

Castrol however just refers you to their Technical phone line, Nulon advises that engine oil product is not available and Mobil refers you to the vehicles dealer.

At present I'm looking to go with the Penrite option as it's available off the shelf at some Repco stores and Super Cheap Auto < Penrite Enviro+ Engine Oil - 5W-30, 10 Litre, C4 - Supercheap Auto (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Penrite-Enviro-Engine-Oil-5W-30-10-Litre-C4/518975) >. No special ordering required and price wise is comparative with what others have paid for Castro Professional oil per litre.

[twr7cx]

Just realised that Castrol have a seperate Lube Guide for Trade < Castrol Trade Australia - NetLube (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/CastrolTradeAus/default.asp) >. This lists:

Castrol CASTROL EDGE PROFESSIONAL C1 5W-30 < http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/871D0C81B4DD4E3280257E2F004B9B10/$File/PDS%20CCSA%20Castrol%20EDGE%20Professional%20C1%20 5W-30%20english.pdf >

But then not 1524 states:


If not fitted with DPF, use CASTROL EDGE PROFESSIONAL A5 5W-30.

CASTROL EDGE PROFESSIONAL A5 5W-30 < http://msdspds.castrol.com/bpglis/FusionPDS.nsf/Files/A9A41B4CF99E5DF280257D47006398B1/$File/BPXE-8HMJ5N_0.pdf >

[scarry]

Wow, glad to hear that I'm not alone in being confused by the engine oil for the Puma motor. I tried looking up this morning what to use in our 2011 2.4.

What I did note is that the following is recomended by brands online lube guides:
Penrite ENVIRO+ C4 5W-30 (Full Synthetic) < ENVIRO+ C4 5W-30 (Full Synthetic) (http://www.penriteoil.com.au/products.php?id_categ=1&id_brand=2&id_products=306) >
Valvoline SynPower ENV C1 Synthetic Engine Oil 5W-30 < ENV C2 | Engine OIl | Full Synthetic | Valvoline | Valvoline.com.au (http://www.valvoline.com.au/explore-our-products/all-products/engine-oil/passenger-car-motor-oil/synpower-env-c1-synthetic-engine-oil) >
Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5W-30 < Shell Helix Ultra Professional AF 5W-30 | Shell Australia (http://www.shell.com.au/motorists/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-fully-synthetic/shell-helix-ultra-professional-af-5w-30.html) > - they're Premium recommendation.
Shell Helix HX7 SN 10W-30 < Shell Helix HX7 SN 10W-30 | Shell Australia (http://www.shell.com.au/motorists/oils-lubricants/helix-for-cars/helix-semi-synthetic/shell-helix-hx7-sn-10w-30.html) > - they're Standard recommendation.

Castrol however just refers you to their Technical phone line, Nulon advises that engine oil product is not available and Mobil refers you to the vehicles dealer.

At present I'm looking to go with the Penrite option as it's available off the shelf at some Repco stores and Super Cheap Auto < Penrite Enviro+ Engine Oil - 5W-30, 10 Litre, C4 - Supercheap Auto (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Penrite-Enviro-Engine-Oil-5W-30-10-Litre-C4/518975) >. No special ordering required and price wise is comparative with what others have paid for Castro Professional oil per litre.

That Valvoline oil is for vehicles with DPF,no DPF and Synpower FE 5w 30 is the correct spec,and also easier to get and available in 5 litre containers.

[masmia]

Have a 2015 Heritage can anyone confirm if it has a DPF, What does it look like? Thanks in advance. :(

[Toxic_Avenger]

I think one way to tell if you have a DPF is look on top of the exhaust manifold. There should be a sensor arrangement sticking out if you have a DPF.
If not it will have a blanking bung

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/12/357.jpg

[twr7cx]

That Valvoline oil is for vehicles with DPF,no DPF and Synpower FE 5w 30 is the correct spec,and also easier to get and available in 5 litre containers.

Got a reference for that? There is no note or any other mention of it in the Valvoline Lube Guide.

[scarry]

Got a reference for that? There is no note or any other mention of it in the Valvoline Lube Guide.


Click on valvoline link in your post,go to left column,click on synpower 5w 30 FE,and you will see it complies with ford specbWSS M2C 913 D,and it adds,compatible with A,B,C specs.
As said suits non DPF.

Oils suitable for vehicles fitted with DPF are generally more expensive and not as readily available,but will still do the job if used in a non DPF vehicle.

[twr7cx]

Click on valvoline link in your post,go to left column,click on synpower 5w 30 FE,and you will see it complies with ford specbWSS M2C 913 D,and it adds,compatible with A,B,C specs.
As said suits non DPF.

http://www.valvoline.com.au/explore-our-products/all-products/engine-oil/passenger-car-motor-oil/synpower-fe-5w30-synthetic-engine-oil


SynPower FE 5W-30 is a premium full synthetic engine oil designed for use in modern Ford engines with the intent to reduce exhaust emissions and improve fuel efficiency calling for Ford WSS-M2C-913-D, C, B and A. Also suitable for other passenger cars where ACEA A5/B5 or API SL/CF is recommended.

I wonder why Valvoline left this one out of their Lube Guide. AFAIK all Puma 2.4 are non-DPF.

[scarry]

http://www.valvoline.com.au/explore-our-products/all-products/engine-oil/passenger-car-motor-oil/synpower-fe-5w30-synthetic-engine-oil



I wonder why Valvoline left this one out of their Lube Guide. AFAIK all Puma 2.4 are non-DPF.

I wondered as well,and noticed some other lube guides do the same.

Maybe they are covering their arses just in case one got through with a DPF.

All a bit confusing:D:(

[twr7cx]

Looks like Gulf Western also have an option, EURO ULTRA 5w30 C1 < Euro Ultra 5W-30 - Gulf Western Oil - Gulf Western Oil (http://www.gulfwestern.com.au/product/euro-ultra/) >.

[ezyrama]

Mines a January 2012 2.2ltr Puma, no DPF. Ricks 4WD @ Nerang (Gold Coast) seem to use Valvoline SynPower FE 5W-30 on mine. Lyntons LR @ Southport use the Castrol 5-30w Edge, though I haven't had the jatz crackers to use them since it came out of warranty. My blood pressure is high enough without looking at one of their invoices.
Cheers Ian

[twr7cx]

Checked the STP Lube Guide yesterday and they just note "refer to dealer" on it.

[DiscoMick]

I notice the Penrite 5w30 I have says it is suitable for both those with and without a DPF and says it is suitable for LRs and Fords.

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app

[Toxic_Avenger]

I have ordered a 20L drum of Castrol Edge Professional A5 5W30. Castrol item number 3377780.

My reasoning is:
1) It's a 5W30 as recommended.
2) Meets Ford spec WSS-M2C913-C
3) Meets ACEA A5/B5 spec
4) And if it matters, it's a Castrol product, recommended by both Castrol for my non DPF vehicle, and ticks the boxes as far as the owners manual and workshop manual recommendations.

After speaking to the Castrol technical dept, it was said that the C1 spec oil generally used for vehicles fitted with a DPF would not be recommended for my vehicle.

[DazzaTD5]

Just a passing comment more than anything else...


*All Defender models in Australia are NON DPF.
*Dont be hung up on a particular brand, all oil blenders (thats any company that doesnt pull the crude out of the ground and refine it) source their base oil from the same oil companies.

*Any info from a sales rep should not be considered factual, their work history may have been 30 years as a sales person in the oil industry, but unlikely to be 30 years in oil chemistry or other scientific field.

*As with any car manufacturing corporation, Jaguar Land Rover have done a supply deal with an oil supply corporation, being in this case, Castrol (BP), it could have just as easily been.... Shell, Mobil, etc etc etc.

There is some good info on AULRO with regards to oils, some of which is sourced from factual information, others from people such as myself, that when it comes down to it, is just an opinion based on work experience.

When all said and done, the best thing a owner can do is to quite simply change the oil on a regular basis regardless of the brand. Regular being every 10,000kms.

Regards
Daz

[Toxic_Avenger]

My thoughts exactly.
It's definitely a case of splitting hairs when it comes to the 'right' product, and no use holding off on changing oil because of this alone. I guess we all just want the best for our vehicles, as the wrong choice can be catastrophic in an extreme case.

A customer of mine at work is a castrol dealer, and is willing to offer me competitive pricing, so this influenced my decision.

[ramblingboy42]

As toxic Avenger said, the engine manufacturer (not Land Rover) has only one standard.

WSS-M2C-913-C

No brands are mentioned.

[shanegtr]

*Dont be hung up on a particular brand, all oil blenders (thats any company that doesnt pull the crude out of the ground and refine it) source their base oil from the same oil companies.


And to add onto that, there's only a handfull of suppliers for the additive packs as well, and often its the additive supplier who says that X additive pack blends with X base stock and that will meet X spec....

[Toxic_Avenger]

As toxic Avenger said, the engine manufacturer (not Land Rover) has only one standard.

WSS-M2C-913-C

No brands are mentioned.

Sort of.
My owners manual says the required oil is "Castrol 5W30", and has a stonkin' big castrol logo on the page ( Lubricants and fluids section, page 96- Owners handbook, publication number LRL10 02 51 122).
The workshop manual specifies the oil spec:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/12/15.jpg

But the word on the forums is that it appears that dealers may use other oils (which I trust meets the ford spec), but not the oil brand as per the owners manual.

This more likely ties into the wheeling and dealing between LR and Castrol when it comes to supply agreements for supply of oil to the engine manufacturing plant and scratching their back as far as trying to secure long term oil sales for the vehicle.

[landoman]

[QUOTE=Toxic_Avenger;2619936]Found this, showing some part numbers
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/


Anyone know Where can I purchase this oil in Sydney

[87County]

I presume any Castrol agent

136354

[Zeros]

Dealers have noted they used the DPF oil Castrol 5W30 C1 in my 2.2 Defender. ...So what will actually happen if the DPF oil is used in a non-DPF vehicle? It would be great if someone with the knowledge could explain why the DPF would need a different oil? ...Surely the two oils are virtually identical? The engines, pistons, rings, seals are all the same. Doesn't the DPF filter the diesel particulates ( which are separate from the oil). Would it really make much difference which Castrol synthetic 5W30 were used? Or that of another reputable brand?

[Zeros]

...what is the actual difference between the specs WSS-M2C913-C non DPF and WSS-M2C934-B DPF?

[Tombie]

DPF equipped vehicles require a low SAPS oil.
SAPS being Sulphated Ash, phosphorus and sulphur.

Here’s a copy from an oil manufacturer::
What is SAPS?

SAPS stands for sulfated ash, phosphorus and sulfur. They comprise a significant portion of a motor oil’s additive content. Sulfated ash is not added to oil; it is the result of additives in the oil burning and creating ash. The additives that can produce ash are most commonly used for total base number (TBN), but also help in other areas, like antioxidancy, anti-wear, cleanliness and soot handling. Phosphorus provides anti-wear properties and further antioxidancy, while sulfur contributes antioxidancy, anti-wear properties and engine cleanliness.

SAPS Levels

Given the beneficial properties these additives impart, it’s easy to assume a higher concentration equals a better oil. But higher SAPS levels can be a detriment to expensive exhaust devices, such as diesel particulate filters (DPFs) and catalysts. The European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA) and original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) realized the importance of using motor oil formulated with precise SAPS levels, and lower limits were established in 2010.

[Tombie]

So in layman’s terms...

The higher Phos/Sulphur content has some lubrication benefits that the low SAPS oils may lack (or use alternative additive packs to replicate).

So use the correct oil in a non-DPF should have some benefit.

[Zeros]

So in layman’s terms...

The higher Phos/Sulphur content has some lubrication benefits that the low SAPS oils may lack (or use alternative additive packs to replicate).

So use the correct oil in a non-DPF should have some benefit.

Thanks Tombie, so a low saps oil may be worse in terms of lubrication?

We're talking about the exact same engine with and without a DPF Surely both oils are suitable for either engine? It's just that one of them is better for the DPF?

...otherwise DPF engine owners should be using non DPF oils to preserve their engines. A DPF is more of a consumable than an engine.

[Tombie]

Non-DPF oils will block DPFs..

And if you’ve priced a DPF you’ll think an engine is cheaper!

[DiscoMick]

After reviewing this thread I'm confused (again). Seem to be some conflicting statements.
Do Puma vehicles with a DPF need C or B grade, while vehicles without a DPF need A grade - is that right?

[Toxic_Avenger]

I didn't think ANY Aus-delivered pumas were fitted with a DPF. Which could potentially make this line of discussion pointless.

Can anyone definitively confirm or deny?

[Tombie]

I didn't think ANY Aus-delivered pumas were fitted with a DPF. Which could potentially make this line of discussion pointless.

Can anyone definitively confirm or deny?

Confirm...

[DiscoMick]

Somewhere back in this thread there was a reference to 2.2s having DPFs.
Anyway, to rephrase my question, do non-DPF Pumas need A, B or C?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Hope this helps, fresh from page 1.



The workshop manual specifies the oil spec:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/12/15.jpg


TL;DR: Shop for your oil in order of: of the oil viscosity, specification, then brand.

[DiscoMick]

OK thanks, that does help because I had interpreted some of the information in this thread to mean the opposite to that, which is why I asked to clarify it.
It's interesting that B is apparently OK in both DPF and non-DPF.

[rick130]

Thanks Tombie, so a low saps oil may be worse in terms of lubrication?


Not necessarily, some mid and low SAPs oils might be as robust or better than high SAPs oils in terms of wear performance.

Put it this way, I'm using a mid/low SAPs oil that's suitable for DPF's (ZDDP levels under 1%, just, and phosphorous and sulphated ash under 0.09%) in my TD5 as I'm confident it will protect as well or better than anything else I can get for the $$.

[Zeros]

My question remains: Will the correct oil for a 2.2 Puma with a DPF, damage a 2.2 Puma non-DPF engine?

[Tombie]

My question remains: Will the correct oil for a 2.2 Puma with a DPF, damage a 2.2 Puma non-DPF engine?

No

[Tombie]

Not necessarily, some mid and low SAPs oils might be as robust or better than high SAPs oils in terms of wear performance.

Put it this way, I'm using a mid/low SAPs oil that's suitable for DPF's (ZDDP levels under 1%, just, and phosphorous and sulphated ash under 0.09%) in my TD5 as I'm confident it will protect as well or better than anything else I can get for the $$.

Which oil is that Rick?

[rick130]

Enviro Plus 10W-40 Mike.

ACEA E6/E9, API CJ-4
It isn't published anymore, but it used to sport a single digit NOACK number too which means a very low volatility. (Low oil consumption)

Used it in the Tdi and the Patrol's TD42T for quite a few years too.

I haven't done any testing for years but plan to do some regular tests soon.
It'll be interesting to see what it looks like.

[Zeros]

No

So either the WSS-M2C913-C non DPF oil, or the WSS-M2C934-B DPF oil is equally suited to non-DPF Puma engines? But if you have a DPF Disco use the C934-B?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Zero's,
Unless you are bringing another point of discussion into this thread, but everything discussed to date relates to the puma Defender, not a disco.

If we are to look at the published specs in the service manual alone:


2.2 Tdci DPF Fitted?
Published Oil Spec
Notes


DPF Fitted
WSS-M2C934-C
NO Aus delivered Pumas were fitted with DPF


DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C913-B



DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C913-C
'C' spec is backwards compatible with the B spec




When I started this thread many moos ago, I went balls-deep in the tech info, the the extent that I confused myself to no end. I called the Castrol tech line to discuss, spoke with people in the know like Rick (who is a great bloke to-boot!) and eventually came to the realisation that if the oil weight is right, if the specification it meets is correct, then I'm 95% set. The remaining 5% would be taken up by more frequent oil drain intervals, which I'm due for approx 10K Km changes. The modern oils are designed for extended drain intervals.
So in my logic:
1) Any oil is better than no oil (or old oil!)
2) The correct weight oil should be used
3) The spec should be met- ideally WSS-M2C934-B or C spec which is a Ford spec oil.
4) You could throw extra money about on a low SAPS DPF suited oil, but realistically, not required, as adequate protection is inherent in the specification and regular drain intervals.

[DiscoMick]

Incidentally, I noted today that the bottle of Penrite Enviro 5W30 oil I have in the shed is low SAPS and therefore I assume suitable for both those with and those without a DPF. So my assumption is go low SAPs and you'll be right with or without a DPF. Is that right?

[Tombie]

Not that simple... must ALSO meet the manufacturers specification.

[Tombie]

Simply Mick, just run HPR5 and you’ll be fine...

And save a bit over the Enviro stuff!

[DiscoMick]

Simply Mick, just run HPR5 and you’ll be fine...

And save a bit over the Enviro stuff!True, except I already have the Penrite Enviro low SAPs bottle in the shed.

[rick130]

Incidentally, I noted today that the bottle of Penrite Enviro 5W30 oil I have in the shed is low SAPS and therefore I assume suitable for both those with and those without a DPF. So my assumption is go low SAPs and you'll be right with or without a DPF. Is that right?Mick, as Mike said it depends on the engine manufacturers oil spec.

There are roughly three levels of mid/low SAPS oils, it seems like everyone has their own particular specification, e.g. Renault is different to Ford/PSA which is different to GM Opel which is similar to BMW but different to VW and Porsche is different again....or something like that.

[rick130]

True, except I already have the Penrite Enviro low SAPs bottle in the shed.Which oil is it and to go in which engine Mick?

[Zeros]

Zero's,
Unless you are bringing another point of discussion into this thread, but everything discussed to date relates to the puma Defender, not a disco.

If we are to look at the published specs in the service manual alone:


2.2 Tdci DPF Fitted?
Published Oil Spec
Notes


DPF Fitted
WSS-M2C913-C
NO Aus delivered Pumas were fitted with DPF


DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C934-B



DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C934-C
'C' spec is backwards compatible with the B spec


.

EXcept that it's the other way around: no DPF = 913C | DPF = 934B/C

So is 934C ok for Defender 2.2 no DPF?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Sort of.
My owners manual says the required oil is "Castrol 5W30", and has a stonkin' big castrol logo on the page ( Lubricants and fluids section, page 96- Owners handbook, publication number LRL10 02 51 122).
The workshop manual specifies the oil spec:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2016/12/15.jpg

But the word on the forums is that it appears that dealers may use other oils (which I trust meets the ford spec), but not the oil brand as per the owners manual.

This more likely ties into the wheeling and dealing between LR and Castrol when it comes to supply agreements for supply of oil to the engine manufacturing plant and scratching their back as far as trying to secure long term oil sales for the vehicle.


Zero's,
Unless you are bringing another point of discussion into this thread, but everything discussed to date relates to the puma Defender, not a disco.

If we are to look at the published specs in the service manual alone:


2.2 Tdci DPF Fitted?
Published Oil Spec
Notes


DPF Fitted
WSS-M2C913-C
NO Aus delivered Pumas were fitted with DPF


DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C934-B



DPF NOT fitted
WSS-M2C934-C
'C' spec is backwards compatible with the B spec




When I started this thread many moos ago, I went balls-deep in the tech info, the the extent that I confused myself to no end. I called the Castrol tech line to discuss, spoke with people in the know like Rick (who is a great bloke to-boot!) and eventually came to the realisation that if the oil weight is right, if the specification it meets is correct, then I'm 95% set. The remaining 5% would be taken up by more frequent oil drain intervals, which I'm due for approx 10K Km changes. The modern oils are designed for extended drain intervals.
So in my logic:
1) Any oil is better than no oil (or old oil!)
2) The correct weight oil should be used
3) The spec should be met- ideally WSS-M2C934-B or C spec which is a Ford spec oil.
4) You could throw extra money about on a low SAPS DPF suited oil, but realistically, not required, as adequate protection is inherent in the specification and regular drain intervals.


EXcept that it's the other way around: no DPF = 913C | DPF = 934B/C

So is 934C ok for Defender 2.2 no DPF?

By jove, I think you're right.
I DID say I confused myself with all this, right?!
I'm also going to plead the 5th with the facts due to the forum table layout- a real PITA to use...

RBP'd the offending table... hopefully someone can set the record straight for future knowledge.

[Zeros]

By jove, I think you're right.
I DID say I confused myself with all this, right?!
I'm also going to plead the 5th with the facts due to the forum table layout- a real PITA to use...

RBP'd the offending table... hopefully someone can set the record straight for future knowledge.

Cool, so can we now assume that as Australian Defenders don't have DPF we can use either of those Castrol 5w30 spec oils because neither is going to clog our DPF?

[Zeros]

...and that both are going to be equally good in terms of protecting our engines?

[Toxic_Avenger]

I'd be confident doing so, as long as the oil change intervals are maintained.
Warranty wise, I don't think there would be a concern if it meets the published 'ford spec' and the correct weight.
As for clogging the DPF, you cannot clog what isn't there!