110 Puma Defender steering shake

[George Mac]

Hi All
After a little advice here as I am at complete loss now with the steering on my 110 Puma Defender.
The steering started to shake about 12 months ago at about 95kmh -105kmh, this got progressively worse and would come in at about 80kmh and would sometimes be uncontrollable to the point where I would have to almost stop for it to ease, it was also brought on by road surface. I took it to my local Landrover specialist and they replaced the steering damper, and checked the pre-load on the swivel pins, road tested it and told me it was good. This did not cure it and since then I have replaced the radius arm bushes, panhard rod bushed, pitman arm, all ball joints, balanced all wheels and swapped front to rear, and I am told the steering box has been checked and adjusted.
The shake is still there, though not as violent, but still unsafe.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated
Thanks in advance
George

[Tombie]

Something has to be loose, cracked or moving.

[JDNSW]

I agree with Tombie. However, it may not be a single problem, but a combination of several minor issues.

Check the following.

1. Wheel balance, loose wheels, loose wheel bearings. Jack up each side front and see if you can wobble wheels either sideways or up and down.

2. Tie rod ends etc. With wheels on the ground, have someone wiggle steering from side to side. Feel each steering tie rod end for movement, and check where lost motion is - should be a little in the box, none anywhere else, including in the U-joints on the steering shaft and their splines. Make sure the box is not moving on the chassis, and none of the attach bolts are broken.

3. Panhard rod. Have the steering moved from side to side while checking carefully for any movement of the chassis relative to the front axle - there should be none. Movement may be due to the panhard bushes themselves, or the bush not securely held by the clamping action of the bolt, usually due to grooves worn in the clamping cheeks (either axle or chassis end or both). Make sure the chassis end anchorage is not cracked.

4. Toe out. Has this been checked?

5. Front radius arm bushes, both ends, and check the chassis anchorages for cracks.

6. Swivel preload. This has been checked, but if the bottom bearing has grooves worn in it, the preload will vary through the movement of the swivel, and be least in the straight ahead position where you need there to be no play. It is easy to check this - Wheel off, disconnect the track rod and drag link, and move the swivel through its full range by hand. It should move smoothly but stay put in any position. If it is not smooth, needs new bearings, if it 'flops' preload is incorrect.

John

[George Mac]

Thanks Tombie and JDNSW
I have had it up on a hoist and cant see anything cracked or loose, but with have another poke around.
All bushes, panhard and radius arms have been changed as have all tie rod ends and ball joints. I will check the steering shaft splines and U-joint today.
The shake is definitely getting worse again and road surface can definitely bring it on

[Tombie]

Just a side thought. How are the shocks?

[George Mac]

Front shock are good, rear are good too, but could do with new bushes.
I should have mentioned the vehicle has only done 130,000kms and not been worked particularly hard

[DazzaTD5]

You dont see too many Defenders that suffer this sort of steering issue, especially at such low km's, personally I wouldnt have changed any of the bushes.

The obvious things that have already been mentioned:
*Steering damper (been replaced).
*Check freeplay in front hub/bearings (done?)

*Have you tried swapping front tyres/wheels to rear (or another set of tyres/wheels on front).

*Shockie rubbers that are flogged out will cause this, but again the flogged out rubbers will be obvious.

*How old are the tyres, while I couldnt believe the tyres are old enough, I have had 2 Defenders over the years that the tyres while not much wear in them, were 8 years old and caused terrible shakes and issues with the vehicles.

*Get someone to move the steering wheel quickly left to right while you look under at all the steering, shock mounts etc etc.

Regards
Daz

[FV1601]

Exact same story as you George, (except 130).
Shudder started at 95,000kms, 2 weeks after I bought it, and immediately after I picked it up after the dealer looked at my issues re. brakes.
Changed everything I could think of, new steering damper, all suspension bush's etc.. Shudder always came back.
In my case the front diff was totally stuffed, which was also causing heaps of drivetrain backlash.
Probably worse case scenario, but something else to have checked.
(Replacement was a TJM locker with standard crown wheel and pinion, set up by the local Landy Guru. (Thanks Ivan)).
Rich.

[George Mac]

Thanks Rich and Daz
I am beginning to think it could be tire related. The Grabbers have been on there for the 5 years that I have owned the vehicle, but they still have plenty of tread. Would road surface affect it if it was tires though? Apart from a visual inspection is there any other way of checking the integrity of the tires? I dont really want to change, what appear to be, 6 good Grabbers just to find the problem is still there.
I also have heaps of backlash through drivetrain but, again, would road surface affect it if it was a drivetrain issue?
George

[Tombie]

Snap a few good pics of the tyre tread allowing us to see the wear profile

[DazzaTD5]

*5 years I think from memory is the limit of what tyre companies say is the life of a tyre, Grabbers are in that list of not the most road friendly tyre. So to confirm tyre age, look for "DOT" on the tyre, the last i think 4 digits are the week and the year the tyre was made, and the digits are sort of set in the tyre, some tyres dont have "DOT" but still have the digits set in, so 0513 would mean made in the 5th week of 2013.

*To pin point, try altering tyre pressures, from very hard, say 50 - 55psi, it should be pretty bad, then down to 40psi, if it improves, I'd suggest its tyres.

*Surely there is some very keen AULRO member with a Defender close to you that would do a swap in the driveway for a few beers, a chat, and a laugh.

*A front steering, suspension, tyre shudder is very different to a drive line shudder, if unsure, a decent repairer should pick this up.

*Driveline back lash on a Defender TDCi is a different unrelated issue.

*Road surface (in general) has no effect on a Defender, in fact one characteristic of pretty well any Land Rover regardless of model, if in reasonable condition they all sit on the road a lot better than pretty well any other vehicle in the same class / year model.

Regards
Daz

[George Mac]

Thanks again to everyone who has replied to this.
I am away to work overseas/offshore for a few weeks, but have made the decision to replace all tyres when I get back, they are all below 50% and well over 5 years old.
Hopefully that will sort it
George

[DazzaTD5]

Fair call George,
but I just hate guess work, while the tyres seem to be the obvious thing (well to me) its still only my guess.

My Dad's 8 year old tyres on his Defender had well over 70% tread still (yes they were very new looking), yet I did the tyre pressure variation and going from very hard down to 30 it changed it a lot, and I had checked (but not replaced) over a lot of other things before deciding it was the tyres.

Regards
Daz

[DiscoMick]

Recommended tyre pressures on a Defender are significantly higher at the back than front so that can cause a big difference in the front and rear wear patterns. If rotating matches a front with a rear with different wear patterns on the front, could that be causing your steering vibration?
Incidentally I recently put the unused spare on the front passenger side where the wheel had had a knock and there was a vibration. After the change the vibration is less, but still there at 105 kmh. That's why I'm wondering about yours.
May be all wrong, but just a thought...


Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app

[n plus one]

Swivel preload/wear (most likely - these are the primary dampers of wheel oscillation) followed by panhard bushes.

Out of balance/odd wear pattern tyres are likely triggering/exacerbating.

The wobble can't be controlled at the steering wheel - all the play is before them at in the chain.

Bigger wheels/tyres make it more likely to occur too. I have some minor wear in my swivels - no issues with the stock rim/tyre combo but the shakes are just starting to raise their heads with the big muddies fitted.

[inside]

I took it to my local Landrover specialist and they replaced the steering damper, and checked the pre-load on the swivel pins, road tested it and told me it was good.

I am beginning to think it could be tire related. The Grabbers have been on there for the 5 years that I have owned the vehicle, but they still have plenty of tread.

You need to find a new specialist. You never replace the damper when dealing with steering shake, it is only there in off road situations to stop steering kick back. Some people will replace theirs with a RTC damper and claim the issue has gone but they have only covered it up. The steering box rarely needs adjusting and should be the absolute last thing you do, you need to be careful as putting too much preload on it will wear the hardening off the shaft and stuff it. Steering boxes are quality Adwest units and rarely give problems until they leak.

Steps to follow:


Visually inspect all joints starting from the top. Steering uni, drop arm, drag link and tie rods, track rod and tie rods.
Visually inspect all bushes, shocks, radius arms etc. Don't forget panhard rod.
Jack front of vehicle, remove both wheels and remove trackrod/drag link. Measure swivel preload. This should really be done with brakes removed as well but will give you an indication.
Note sure what to do next as usually point 3 finds the issue.

Swivels need to be considered as a major service item. Ideally you should be rebuilding every 4 years or 80K. If your specialist checked the preloads ask them what the weight range was to move them, I bet they couldn't tell you as they likely never removed the track rod or drag link to check properly.


The steering started to shake about 12 months ago at about 95kmh -105kmh, this got progressively worse and would come in at about 80kmh and would sometimes be uncontrollable to the point where I would have to almost stop for it to ease, it was also brought on by road surface.
If I was a betting man I would put $100 on swivel preload and your specialist knowing nothing.

[Anita]

Insider's bet is right.
Apart from THAT please check your front prop shaft
One bad UJ and you get all sorts of things.
Here it is usually that. But then our roads are terrible