Total loss of drive....bugger!

[ozy013]

Well it happened at 5am this morning, on the way to work. Cruising along in 6th at 100kph on the Western Hwy just before the merge with the Western Ring Rd, Melbourne city bound.
No warning, just a slight crunch then whirring noise. Came to a stop in the hard shoulder. Could select gears, but every time I let out the clutch no drive.

It's now been towed to Melbourne City Land Rover, who will probably get to look at it by Friday.

Initial thoughts were the output shaft, but last August I had Les Richmond put the Ashcrofts kit in. The old shaft was pretty flogged and bone dry. Just called Les Richmond, but they're still on Holidays till the 16th Jan.

It'll be interesting to see what caused the total loss of drive, hopefully I'll know by end of business this week. The cars my daily drive, so the sooner the better. Could be many things I suppose, I was just lucky that it didn't happen whilst I was away camping in the High Country with the kids over the Christmas break.

I do all the servicing and general repairs myself, but when it involves dropping either the gearbox or TC, I just don't have the room or time do it on my own. Especially now we have friends over for a month or so, and the driveway is chockers.

Big thumbs up to RACV though, been a member for nearly 20 years and up until now have never had to use their services. Tow truck and taxi all sorted, and looks like I get a discount on hire cars. I'll bloody need it with the amount some of these hire companys charge! Just calling around now to see if any mates have a car they wish to hire to me for a couple of weeks.

This is actually the first time any of my Landy's have let me down, in 30 odd years of ownership, so not too bad going then. Hopefully I'll have more of an update by the end of the week.

When I dropped off the Defender, the service manager said over the past week they've had a least 4 tow ins a day, I guess it's that time of year. Short staffed, and a little snowed under, ah well fingers crossed.

[ozy013]

Quick update, just had call from MCLR, they've already put it on the hoist, just in the off chance that it would be "a quick fix to get me back on the road". Not bad when they said they couldn't get to it till Friday.

Unfortunately the transfer case has to come off, head technician says that it's highly likely from the noises made and past experience, that the output shaft has failed.

[inken_dave]

Hey Ozy013, sorry to hear that you had a breakdown! I'll be watching with interest especially if it is the coupling between the gearbox and Tx case! I'm looking at installing an Aschroft mod'ed one myself, but if yours has failed, mmmmm interesting.

Our 2013 110 just towed our family from Tamworth to Rockhampton (Yeepoon) to Newcastle back to Tamworth towing a heavey 6m boat! It went perfectly! (I did carry a intercooler hose repair kit though).

I don't have road side, and really took a risk, especially travelling through semi outback QLD.....Your story really should kick me in the pants to do something!

Please keep us all informed! Hope you can find an alternative to hiring a car!

[roverrescue]

Subbed to see what has happened
Now seriously this thread will be worthless without pics
We need to see pics ��

S

[ozy013]

118155


This was the old output shaft, removed last August. No chance of pics from today's episode, not now anyway.

[Pickles2]

Ozy,..not good mate, sorry to hear that.
Unfortunately, we know the feeling,.....driving along at 100ks on a lovely day, when suddenly,...yes,...a whirring noise & no drive.
Landrover assist took well over 3 hrs to get to us, 200ks from home, long story, but eventually got Gracie back to ULR where the input shaft was replaced.
Pickles.

[ozy013]

Yeah, it was actually your story in the first place that prompted me to change out the output shaft for the Ashcroft kit. It's definitely not a good feeling, but could've happened in far worse places.

Our trip to the High Country was up in the Avon Wilderness, I always take our two young kids before Christmas day, as there's no holiday care until the 2nd of Jan. 6-7 days off road then down to Sarsfield, just past Bairnsdale, to me mum's house for the family get together.

Very quite before Christmas, apart from the ranger from Heyfield, that we met up at Horseyard Flat, we did not see another 4wd in all our travels.

So in away very happy the failure happened when and where it did.

Did Gracie enjoy her yearly polish the other day?

[1nando]

I was considering the Ashcroft output shaft upgrade but if it is your output shaft thats gone then this is the third time i have heard of it stripping. I think i may just make it a serviceable item every 50,000kms and check the transfer case and centre diff at each servicing.

On a different note i jave my own issue at the moment with a bloody annoying oil leak

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[Beery]

Just to clarify. The "Ashcroft" part is still just a standard genuine LR part. They've just modified it to be self lubricating.P

[1nando]

Just to clarify. The "Ashcroft" part is still just a standard genuine LR part. They've just modified it to be self lubricating.P

I know this and that is why im hesitant to pay good money for a modified part and installation if it fails like the original.

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[ozy013]

Yep as mentioned the Ashcroft kit is a modified coupling and Land Rover shaft. It's all speculation at the moment, so I guess I will have to wait and see come Friday. If it is so, It would be unusual for it to fail completely after just 6 months and 7,000km's of service.

[rangieman]

It is always worth trying with the CDL engaged when something like this happens ;)
This will eliminate worn drive flange or worn or broken axle or ****ed diff :cool:

[ozy013]

That was the first thing I tried when I was pulled over in the hard shoulder. ;)

I've had a diff let go many years ago in the 130, compared to that there was very little noise and absolutely no warning

[rangieman]

That was the first thing I tried when I was pulled over in the hard shoulder. ;)

I've had a diff let go many years ago in the 130, compared to that there was very little noise and absolutely no warning

No probs i just hope it is not a painful expensive experience for you :cool:

[ozy013]

No worries, thanks Chris, will have to wait and see.....if I had a choice it would go back to Les Richmond, but as they're still closed for holidays.....we all know how expensive dealers can be :eek::eek:.

[SG1 Bones]

I've just stumbled across this thread, and I feel for you. The exact same thing happened to me on Christmas Eve. No one is opened then until weeks after or no one wants to look at it.

I finally have someone looking at it but it makes it hard when it's your work truck and you're moving from Brisbane to Melbourne in two weeks.

Mine is a 109" SIII ute, with a Disco 1 R380 gearbox and original TC. It has a '94 V6 Triton engine.

I just wish I knew what was wrong. The worse thing is that mechanics buy parts and then you see the price afterwards and think I wish they had asked I could have got the same part for half or a third of the price.

I will be watching to see how you go. Thanks for the thread.

Nathan.

[jimr1]

Ian I suppose the first thing is to find out what has failed ? If it is the replacement shaft is there any sort of warrantee from Les Richmond ? If you could keep us in the loop on what your problem is that would be good mate . I'm thinking of doing the same upgrade , my truck has only done 13,500 ks So good luck mate Lets hope you get it fixed up soon as , and are back on the road !!.. Jim

[ozy013]

Thanks everyone for your support, last night I sent Ashcrofts a quick email, and got a reply from Dave straight away. I promised to keep him updated, I just asked if the part had a warranty, and it does.

As for warranty from Les Richmond, I'll have to wait till they reopen. It's also possible it could be the mainshaft in the gearbox. So the sooner Land Rover drop the box the better, as I hate speculating.

[Pickles2]

Yeah, it was actually your story in the first place that prompted me to change out the output shaft for the Ashcroft kit. It's definitely not a good feeling, but could've happened in far worse places.

Our trip to the High Country was up in the Avon Wilderness, I always take our two young kids before Christmas day, as there's no holiday care until the 2nd of Jan. 6-7 days off road then down to Sarsfield, just past Bairnsdale, to me mum's house for the family get together.

Very quite before Christmas, apart from the ranger from Heyfield, that we met up at Horseyard Flat, we did not see another 4wd in all our travels.

So in away very happy the failure happened when and where it did.

Did Gracie enjoy her yearly polish the other day?
Lol!..Yes, I think she did! I don't go overboard, I don't use any "special" polish, just what I've got at the time, But I do take my time & of course it's a big help having a garage, to keep her out of the weather.
But seriously, that is not good, after just 7000ks. I'd say Ashcrofts (heard nothing but good about them) will be more interested than most, to see what has happened.....and it definitely shakes your "confidence" in the vehicle, particularly for mechanically hopeless people like me anyway.
I hope you're back on the road asap.
Pickles.

[ozy013]

Quick update, well not really, I lost track of time at work today, delivering trucks to Albury, then messing around with wrong addresses for the pick up of several cars from Wodonga to return to Melbourne.

No message on my phone from MCLR, so I'll call tomorrow.

[ozy013]

I was considering the Ashcroft output shaft upgrade but if it is your output shaft thats gone then this is the third time i have heard of it stripping.

Did you hear it through second hand info or see it for yourself? If mine has failed, which hopefully I'll know by tomorrow, then as far as I'm and Dave is aware unfortunately mine will be the first failure that Ashcrofts have heard of.

[1nando]

Did you hear it through second hand info or see it for yourself? If mine has failed, which hopefully I'll know by tomorrow, then as far as I'm and Dave is aware unfortunately mine will be the first failure that Ashcrofts have heard of.

I read it on this forum, it was one of the members on here and one on d2.

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[CraigE]

I had similar and it was the front shaft bearing collapsed.
Recon R380 from Ashcrofts.

[ozy013]

No updates as of yet, called into MCLR to pick up some stuff out the back of the car. It was on the hoist and in bits all over the floor.

They only started working on it this afternoon, so should have an idea within the next day or so.

You don't realise how much you spend of your weekends tinkering on the Landie, until it's not there. On the other hand, I've repaired a couple of holes in our bathroom wall, and I'm slowly working through the books I got for Christmas.

[ozy013]

ok quick update from my mobile, the clutch hqs failed, but they want to check the ashcroft coupling, but dont have the tool that comes with the kit to remove it. Is there anyone in the melbourne area that has said tool?

[ozy013]

All right, finally finished work, time for a more thorough update.

Spoke to the dealer this arvo, as said in last post the clutch has failed, I guess not too bad considering it's done 96,000k's from new.
I've asked them to replace the master cylinder, whilst it's all apart, and I'm going in to see them tomorrow.

They want to remove the collar on the output shaft to check the splines, the reasoning being that they don't want to put it all back together and then find the splines have gone as well. They don't have the tool required, and have tried a filter strap wrench, but the collar won't budge.
I've called around, but at this stage can't find someone with the tool.

I've also spoken to Dave Ashcroft on a couple of occasions now, who's been very informative and helpful, his recommendation is that if it's tight and showing no signs of leakage then leave it alone.

I can't fault MCLR, I've been kept in the loop the whole time and communication has been great, in fact they're trying to save me money and inspect the coupling before it all goes back together. If it has to all come apart again, then obviously it's at my expense.

So that's where I stand at the moment, thanks for your time, advice and support.

[rangieman]

Im happy for you that it is not the shaft:cool:
I do understand the Puma,s have issues with clutch,s but accepting a clutch failing at 96,000k's is not on in my opinion :confused:
Im hoping for your sake at that amount of ks it is covered under warranty and they also have a fix for it:cool:
I would expect a clutch to at least get 3 to 4 more times the ks out of it than yours:)

[1nando]

Ozy013

Is yours a 2.4 or 2.2?

I think post 2013 all pumas were released with a new clutch.

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[ozy013]

1nando, mine's the 2.4, before I owned this vehicle the previous owner used to get it serviced at MCLR. In fact when I first purchased it from Lennocks in Canberra, they provided their service history, but when I popped into MCLR after arriving back in Melbourne, to get the history from new MCLR, said not without the previous owners consent. Still haven't managed to track him down. They did tell me that all recalls had been performed, but that was it.

Now I'm spending money here they're a little more forthcoming.

I hear you Chris, 96000k's is a short life for clutch, but I have read of some owners going through 3 in 100,000k's in the UK.:eek:
However the Kenworth I drive at work has gone around the clock twice and is still on the original clutch, but I guess it helps when you don't use it most of the time.;)

But as I pointed out to 1nando in another thread, it's best not to believe all you read on forums. Maybe I should listen to my own words:angel:......sorry 1nando if I came across the wrong way, It's been trying times, and I just didn't want a well respected supplier and a top bloke, to have his product doubted on hearsay.

Unfortunatly Chris, my vehicle is long past it's warranty, so this one's out of my own pocket. Ah well all the money I've saved with servicing it myself, now can help pay for this.

[POD]

What happened with the clutch? Was the centre screwed out of it, splines stripped, friction surface parted?? Be interesting to know.

[ozy013]

Me too, that's why I'm heading in there tomorrow. Most of the time I'm dealing with one of the service managers, who only give general descriptions. This morning they called me and I spoke to the mechanic working on the vehicle, he wanted to know how the Ashcroft coupling worked. I guess that was before they inspected the clutch.

When I dropped the vehicle off last week, I did tell one of the managers that it had the Ashcroft's Kit fitted, and explained how it worked, sounds like he didn't pass that info onto the guys working on it.

[ozy013]

Bugger is not the word I wish to use at the moment, but I'd probably be censored.
Well the clutch is all back together and working fine, there's nothing wrong with the output shaft, but here's the kicker. My front diff is stuffed, the center has failed.

They took it for a drive to test the clutch, and the front diff started making horrible noises. Now when I lost drive last week there was no noise, and no warning. When I changed the diff oil last September, it was clear and there was very little swarf on the magnetic drain plugs I fitted ages ago. None of the offroading done recently has been extreme, as I've been on my own and with the kids, no serious wheel spin or shock loading, didn't realise how weak these two pin diffs are, when not set up properly from factory.

So anyhow they now want to charge me $4700 for a new centre, axles and sundries :censored::censored::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: :eek::eek:. New genuine centre is $735 and the axles are $1500 each.
As far as I'm aware from 2007 till 2010 the 110's had the two pin rover diff on the front, after 2010 Land Rover realised that this was a weak point and went to four pins in the front diff.

Anyway there's no way I'm going down the Genuine road, not for it to fail again.
Ashcrofts it is, well under half the price for a pegged ATB centre with HD axles. I was going to purchase eventually, in fact I was waiting for the front diff to fail. Just didn't expect it to happen all in one week.
Long term plans are for an ATB in the rear, and one in the transfer case.

Does anyone know how quick the Ashcroft express postage is?

Just trying to convince The Minister of Finance that this is the way to go, looks like the no5 trailer I was looking at purchasing will have to wait awhile.

It's gone from a couple of years of trouble free motoring, to all this, ah well when it rains it pours. Like i said at the beginning of this thread, at least it happened where the vehicle was easily accessible.

Going in to look at the damage tomorrow. Couldn't get there today as work was busy, and it was the last day to get vehicles off the wharf.

[1nando]

Thats terrible mate. I thought all pumas had a 2 pin front diff, are you sure after 2010 they went to 4 pin in the front?
By going Ashcroft im asuming half shafts, cvs, diff centre and stub axles?

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[ozy013]

That was the thought, but I've been thinking about it some more, the front diff failure that is. I was a little distracted with work and a visit to the dentist this arvo, when I received the call from the dealer today.

I've also just spoken to Dave Ashcroft, on the phone, and like me he finds it highly unlikely the clutch and diff have let go all at the same time. A diff just doesn't let go without protesting.
Their words were, " we took it for a drive and the front diff was making noises, your diff needs replacing" then they started talking half shafts as well. Sounds like the diff let go whilst they were testing the clutch. How do they know it's the front diff? and what has failed? Dave asked if I had given authorisation for the disassembly of the diff, which I had not. So how do they know what's failed exactly?

My thinking now is to go in tomorrow and ask to see the vehicle, take photo's and if the front axle is still together then ask to remove the front prop, pay my bill and leave in 2wd. I need a second opinion, as Dave recommended, he says he's seen so many miss diagnosis over the years, not just from dealers but independents as well. If however the front axle is in pieces then I can see an argument brewing, and if It can't be driven in 2wd then the problem is elsewhere. But I'll probably still get a towie to take it elsewhere. Problem is I trust Les Richmond, but they'll probably have a decent backlog of work when they reopen next week.
Has anyone used Pickards in Abbotsford?

[Beery]

The front, rear and centre Ashcroft ATB can be had for about $2200 including air freight and import duties/GST.
It only takes a few days to get to Australia, but customs holds it up a few more days.

[1nando]

I went to Pickards a week ago to check my oil leak whilst in Victoria. I have nothing but nice things to say about Dave. He spent a good 20 minutes inspecting my vehicle and came to the conclusion that i should be able to nurse it back to Sydney. I offered to pay him for his time and he outright refused. He was a complete gentleman and i would have no issue using him if i lived in Melbourne.

You said you heard a loud bang when it happened and then you had no drive. Now the dealer has said they've taken it for a drive and there are noises coming from the front diff after replacing the clutch. The transfer case has been checked and all is fine prior to the clutch install. Sorry for repeating everything but im going somewhere with this.
Now the clutch must have been busted becuase you said you had no drive and now that its replaced they are saying it does, according to the dealer. To now narrow it to the front diff and the half shafts means that its been stripped otherwise how would they know? Are they taking a stab in the dark? Did you inspect and personally see the vehicle the last 2 days?
Id say when they checked the transfer box and didnt find fault they then started stripping the front axle, where they found no issue. Checking these two areas has probably cost them "x" amount of time. They then decided to check the clutch where they did find a fault and replaced it accordingly. Once the clutch was replaced they needed to find away to inflate and cover their costs. Fitting a new front axle in at $3735 (diff centre, half shafts) gives you a new axle and covers all their time whilst they are still making money. They are ripping you off.
The chance of a half shaft letting go at 100kmph on the freeway in 6th due to a clutch failure does not make any sense at all. If the half shaft was damaged prior to the bang noise you would have known about it, walk in there tomorrow and take your car off them asap.
The above could be wrong but to me it makes sense. Sorry for long reply

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[67hardtop]

Maybe they test drove it with the diff lock engaged?

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[1nando]

Ozy013 said he tried this at the time of hearing the bang before towing it to them. If it it was a half shaft the vehicle still would have moved when engaged in diff lock assuming there was nothing wrong with the clutch. It didnt so thats how i came to the above.

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[roverrescue]

Is it possible the original issue was front diff��? They yanked the gear bag and had to blame something so picked on the clutch?

I'd be wanting to see a shagged clutch before paying a cent - and when I say shagged the centre better be in a different postcode to the friction plate to account for lack of drive

S

[1nando]

Is it possible the original issue was front diff😬? They yanked the gear bag and had to blame something so picked on the clutch?

I'd be wanting to see a shagged clutch before paying a cent - and when I say shagged the centre better be in a different postcode to the friction plate to account for lack of drive

S

Still would have moved in centre difflock, although it would have a terrible sound

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[roverrescue]

Riddle me this
Stranger you had a dual major driveline failure
Or stranger you thought diff was locked and still no drive

They have everything to gain by getting you to buy a new clutch and new front end due to their incompetence and haste ... you have everything to lose

Be a skeptic

I've had plenty o occasions that the lil stick tells me the diff is locked but the diff ain't no locked

S

[ozy013]

Ok, getting ready for work, plus I'm going in there this morning. Just to clarify a few things.
When I lost drive in 6th at 100kph, it was silent, no noise whatsoever.

I then tried engaging C diff lock, no movement and still no noise.

When I spoke to mechanic working on it, not the service manager, they suspected output shaft failure, he wanted to know if i had the tool to remove the collar over the coupling. They then checked further, said shaft was fine and that my clutch had suffered total failure.

After putting In a new clutch and bolting everything back together, they then took my vehicle for a test drive, that's when the front diff supposedly started making "strange noises". That was the service managers words.

So Im in there today, firstly to view the cactus clutch, secondly to check out my front diff centre failure and take pictures, Thirdly and most important is one way or another I'm getting my vehicle out of there. Hopefully it can be moved with front prop off. But if the pins have gone in the centre, then steering would be affected. So may have to sort out a tow or trailer.

Thanks for the heads up in regards to Pickards, as I need to take my vehicle else where.

Never realised this would turn into such a drama.

[ozy013]

What a day!!!

Went in this morning to inspect the diff, and check out the clutch they removed.

The clutch, which I asked to be put in the back of the Defender once removed, had been put in the bin by the apprentice yesterday, which had been conveniently picked up by the scrap truck early this morning.

The diff had let go, but after speaking to the mechanic, he told me he was turning out of the driveway onto the road when the front diff started to bind then went crunch.
They drained the oil, which had metal fragments contained within, the magnetic diff plugs had swarf all over them, and there was an indentation in the axle casing.

One of the pins had sheared in half, sending one of the sun gears into the crown wheel, taking some chunks of crown wheel in the process then I guess it put the dent in the casing. The photo's don't show the damage to the crown wheel.

I told them I was going to put it on my truck and take it elsewhere, and I was not paying the $560 they wanted to reassemble the front end.
Wheels, brakes, swivels, half shafts and center were all out. I asked why I wasn't called when they heard the noise, found fragments in the oil, and noticed the dent in the casing?
So In the end I paid for the clutch, master cylinder and labour, but not the strip down or rebuild of the front end. I basically paid the price quoted before the diff failed.

My work let me use my truck and trailer, I transport trucks and cars around Victoria. The front prop was left off as were the half shafts, I drove her on, with the center diff locked, strapped her down, and now she sits at Pickards Automotive in Abbotsford.
Whatever needs replacing will be done so with Ashcrofts.
The photo's were taken with my phone so not great. the second one shows the dent in the casing just above the fill plug, sorry the light wasn't great.
118445

118446

118447

118448

118449

[ozy013]

118450

118451

118452

118453

The last two pictures just show what I do for a living, to pay for this little episode. I've never really stopped and taken photo's of my loads before.

[POD]

That diff looks absolutely knackered. And what a strange set of coincidences you have experienced.
Personally I find it very difficult to buy the clutch failure story, I guess an annoying part of all that is you will never really know whether you were ripped off or not. Can't see what advantage they might have expected to gain from lying about it though, considering that they would have known that there was a genuine problem somewhere to be found so why fabricate one.
You won't regret the Ashcroft upgrade though.

[landy]

I call bull**** on the clutch. Very convenient that it was thrown out.
But I've no solution on what you could do.
I guess we've all been there though.

[dfendr]

The diff pictures make a convincing reason to fit a diff guard

[edddo]

damage was caused from the internals wasnt it - not an external impact.

[jon3950]

Why is clutch failure so hard to believe?

My understanding of the situation is that the original problem was there was no drive, even with the cdl locked. This suggests the original problem must have been clutch/gearbox/transfer case, not front or rear diffs.

The problem was diagnosed as the clutch, which was replaced. After this the vehicle was driveable, as is clearly evidenced by the vehicle being driven onto the truck. Sort of suggests they fixed something.

A diff letting go on a test drive is not inconceivable, hell I once had one let go just backing out of the garage.

Cheers,
Jon

[4wheeler]

The photo of the differential seems to show that the area of the carrier where the pin holding the spider gears passes through is ovoid not round. Am I wrong on this or does it suggest the pin has been moving in the diff for some time and not just a sudden problem driving around the block. That would explain why it has eventually failed.


My 2007 Defender that I had and 2013 Defender I now I have will often have to be driven forward for the centre differential lock to actually lock. It is very difficult to lock it in my vehicle without some form of motion. Sometimes the light will come on but it is not actually locked as I have found out a few times off road as once I start off, the light extinguishes and I have to lock it properly while moving. So if the centre diff was not actually locked and the front diff gave up the ghost, that would explain no drive obviously as all drive goes to a totally open front end.


In this scenario the clutch would not need to be replaced, but the diff would! I already have a Harrop rear diff lock so might have to save for an Ashcroft ATB or another Harrop!


The other possibility is the clutch was shot and needed replacing and the diff failed due to the pin finally breaking as the mechanic drove out of the dealership!


I have also just realised that if the diff was gone before going to the dealer, even after replacing the clutch, the only way it would drive is with the CDL locked! the plot thickens.

[ozy013]

The photo of the differential seems to show that the area of the carrier where the pin holding the spider gears passes through is ovoid not round. Am I wrong on this or does it suggest the pin has been moving in the diff for some time and not just a sudden problem driving around the block. That would explain why it has eventually failed.

Yes the hole for the pin to pass through was ovoid, and the mechanic did say the diff was probably a gradual failure over time.

My CDL engages relatively easily, that's not just the light coming on, I check it every time before I go 4wd, just by jacking up a front wheel and operating the CDL.

The past week has been a bit hectic, but sitting back now with a bit of time on my hands having breakfast on a Saturday morning, I think it was just an unfortunate set of occurrences that all seemed to happen at once.

The diff had probably been on it's way out for awhile, and just decided enough was enough on the dealers driveway. As for my initial failure, total loss of drive, well it would've been great to see the old clutch. After speaking to the mechanic and the service assistant, I think the service assistant neglected to tell those that mattered that I required the old clutch. It wasn't a matter of covering something up, I guess it's so easy to blame the apprentice, the service assistant just forgot to tell anyone, even though I did ask on two separate occasions

Just like he forgot to call me before they started stripping the front axle. When I was arguing the point in regards to paying the $560 to reassemble, I got to speak to the manager of the service department, he asked the assistant if I was called at the initial stage where they suspected diff issues. The answer was no, to which he replied "then we can't expect the customer to pay".

And I agree with Jon's comments,
The problem was diagnosed as the clutch, which was replaced. After this the vehicle was driveable, as is clearly evidenced by the vehicle being driven onto the truck. Sort of suggests they fixed something.

[grinna1965]

As an owner of a work shop all my mechanics from the apprentice up know that parts never leave the premises or get chucked out until they customer has sited and been fully explained what has gone on.
On the case of no drive i have a fairly high tune in my 110 which we do in house and have spun the centre out of two clutches,one at 28000 and one at 42000 no sign of slippage at all the clutch facings were like new both time no drive but terrible noise

[ozy013]

Thanks grinna, my car has a BAS tune with EGR delete, the mechanic did say that there was very little friction surface left on the clutch and it had hot spots all over it.

[grinna1965]

Our tune gives more torque than most
If the clutch facings were worn to the rivers it still wouldn't have lost drive totally you would have felt it flare up and then still try to drive you just wouldn't have nothing at all

[1nando]

Our tune gives more torque than most
If the clutch facings were worn to the rivers it still wouldn't have lost drive totally you would have felt it flare up and then still try to drive you just wouldn't have nothing at all

Out of curiosity what sort of torque and hp numbers does your tune provide??

Sorry for derail of threat ozy013.....just curious

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[grinna1965]

The last thing i want to do is be responsible for derailing a thread which seems to happen all to often on this site which is one of the down falls of this site
There is a lot of information here and also a lot of b/s
I know that our tune has more torque than most but not as much hp,if you know diesels its all about torque.not saying ours is any better or is faster but will drive differently in different circumstances if you would like to start another thread on performance that's fine but i would prefer to talk on the phone.cheers

[ozy013]

If the clutch facings were worn to the rivers it still wouldn't have lost drive totally you would have felt it flare up and then still try to drive you just wouldn't have nothing at all

That's what I thought, I've had clutch's, two actually, let go in trucks over the years. One was like how you describe above, and the other was coming to a stop at a set of lights in Bendigo fully loaded, the clutch wouldn't disengage and she just kept trying to chuck along. First thoughts was master cylinder but when they stripped it the clutch was completely stuffed.

My clutch has operated the same since I bought the vehicle 2nd hand, 4 years ago, I don't ride the clutch, always start off in 1st even though it is a bit low. It's just hard to believe it would cause total loss of drive, that quickly.

[4wheeler]

Yes the hole for the pin to pass through was ovoid, and the mechanic did say the diff was probably a gradual failure over time.

My CDL engages relatively easily, that's not just the light coming on, I check it every time before I go 4wd, just by jacking up a front wheel and operating the CDL.

The past week has been a bit hectic, but sitting back now with a bit of time on my hands having breakfast on a Saturday morning, I think it was just an unfortunate set of occurrences that all seemed to happen at once.

The diff had probably been on it's way out for awhile, and just decided enough was enough on the dealers driveway. As for my initial failure, total loss of drive, well it would've been great to see the old clutch. After speaking to the mechanic and the service assistant, I think the service assistant neglected to tell those that mattered that I required the old clutch. It wasn't a matter of covering something up, I guess it's so easy to blame the apprentice, the service assistant just forgot to tell anyone, even though I did ask on two separate occasions

Just like he forgot to call me before they started stripping the front axle. When I was arguing the point in regards to paying the $560 to reassemble, I got to speak to the manager of the service department, he asked the assistant if I was called at the initial stage where they suspected diff issues. The answer was no, to which he replied "then we can't expect the customer to pay".

And I agree with Jon's comments,


Hi Ian,
Totally agree with what you have said. I would have expected a call as well if ongoing repairs were outside the original discussion of the work needed, especially given the major costs involved.


Given you are a professional driver of a Kenworth with a crash box, in no way did I think that in your case, you did not have the CDL engaged properly. Just that I was speculating "if" this happened then "that" would have to happen as well. I know my Defender has its little surprises just waiting to be discovered. As per my original reply, I approached a steep rutted hill with what I thought was low range selected and CDL engaged. Got to he to of the hill and neither was the case! That actually impressed me as everyone else was having trouble in low range.


I hope you get it all sorted soon. I like you, would go stir crazy if my Defender was off the road for too long!

[JDNSW]

Different model Landrover, but I have had a clutch fail by the centre breaking out of the plate - just gave 'no drive' as described.

John

[ozy013]

I hope you get it all sorted soon. I like you, would go stir crazy if my Defender was off the road for too long!

Not sure whether I mentioned it earlier or not, but you don't realise how much time you spend tinkering, fixing and doing preventative maintenance over the weekends, until the Defenders not there.

I've now read all the books I got for Christmas, and today has been spent building a rebel base out of lego odds and ends, for my sons xwing that he got for his birthday. Quite therapeutic actually....:BigThumb:

[ozy013]

Ok, quick update, ordered all the parts from Ashcrofts yesterday. ATB centre, HD crown wheel and pinion, HD half shafts, HD Cv's, and finally HD drive flanges.
Hopefully back on the road by next weekend.

[1nando]

Ok, quick update, ordered all the parts from Ashcrofts yesterday. ATB centre, HD crown wheel and pinion, HD half shafts, HD Cv's, and finally HD drive flanges.
Hopefully back on the road by next weekend.
HD Crown wheel and pinion?? Im assuming the 3.54 ratio will be maintained?
How much stronger is the hd C&P compared to standard??

[ozy013]

Yes maintaining standard ratio, Ashcrofts is 3.5 with 28 teeth on the crown wheel and 8 on the pinion.

The stock ratio of 3.54 is 46/13, the 28/8 is almost the same ratio, but with fewer wider teeth, which is able to absorb higher shock loading, the only down side is a slight increase in noise.

I did look at diff pegging as well, to keep the gears in constant mesh, but after speaking to Dave over the weekend, I decided that it would probably be overkill for what I use my rig for. Plus with all the upgrades I'm doing, the front axle should be strong enough.

[ozy013]

Well it's been awhile, but my front diff is now back together.
The delay in shipping was due to the Ashcroft parts, along with many others, being held by customs after they discovered a heap of drugs in farm machinery a couple of weeks ago.

I had a call from Pickards on Thursday to say the Defender was up and running and that they were very happy with the quality of the Ashcroft parts.
However on taking the vehicle for a test drive they discovered an unusual vibration from the engine between 2500-3000rpm.
They wanted me to come for a drive, which I did today, and the vibration is definatley there. It wasn't present before the loss of drive a month or so ago now.
They've checked the driveline, engine mounts, ball joints etc etc etc. But it seems to be clutch / engine related. It doesn't happen all the time just at the above mentioned rev range.

So it's back to MCLR we go, I will call them tomorrow and try to organise a technician to take it for a drive. I guess in the dealers defence, they never really had a chance to road test the clutch they fitted. The front diff decided to let go before they hit the road.

I know they're going to try to dodge the bullet and look elsewhere for the vibration, but Pickards have checked everything else and it certainly looks like the clutch is the issue.

So tomorrow I pick her up, then let the fun and games begin.......will keep you posted.

[1nando]

Thats unfortunate mate. Maybe they could write a report saying what they've checked and what they believe is the issue????

How do you find the new front axle set up? Correct me if im wrong but you've upgraded the half shafts, cv's, C&P and stub axles??? Noise? Backlash??

[ozy013]

Haven't really had a chance to drive it any distance, they just wanted to make sure it wasn't a vibration that was there prior to the loss of drive. It was just a quick 5 minute job around the block

Backlash on the short drive around the block was all but gone. Yep, ATB centre, HD crown wheel and pinion, HD axles, HD CV's and Flanges. Already fitted last year Ashcrofts ouput shaft, and HD rear axles and flange(HI-Tuff)

Don't really want to venture off road yet and give it a good workout, not until this vibration is sorted.

[ozy013]

Well this arvo, I finally drove it home from Pickards. The backlash in the driveline is totally gone, and except for the vibration, which is also there at idle, it's great to drive.

Pickards put it back on the hoist on Friday, after my drive with the mechanic, to try to isolate the vibration. It was then they discovered that my transfer case is now leaking, not only that but the dealer forgot to plug in my park brake light loom, and they left this little part sitting in the footwell on the passenger side.:wallbash:

120171

I was going to ask here if anyone knew where it was supposed to be fitted, but i think I've found the answer here;
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/
Looks like it's a support bracket for the high/low range lever.(Number 2)
Would the lack of this support bracket be causing the vibration?

After inspecting the leaking transfer case on arriving home, the leak is pretty bad, it's dripping on the driveway. ( I'll take some photo's tomorrow when the light's better). I've decided to call the Dealer on Monday and book it in to try to get them to rectify the issues they've caused. The transfer case wasn't leaking before it went into Landrover, and neither was the vibration there. So lets hope they come to the party and sort it without trying to charge me.

I'll be so happy when this whole saga is behind me, and I can venture of road again. Ah well one step at a time

[JDNSW]

The missing bracket could quite possibly be the reason for the vibration, although without seeing and hearing it this is purely a guess.

[rangieman]

Wow Ian how are you staying calm [bighmmm]
How can any one have faith in dealers when this crap consistently happens .
Hope its sorted soon and for the positive mate[wink11]

[ozy013]

120223

This is the leak I now have. I didn't get a chance to take a photo until this evening, the kids had Kendo grading all afternoon.
I spoke to a couple of people today, and it looks like the bracket is more of a cover for the wiring on the gearbox, rather than a support. But it still needs refitting.

I guess I'm just taking it one step at a time Chris, If I start thinking about it too much It does my head in. Especially a couple of times where my wife has argued that we should sell it. It's hard to argue the point for keeping it at times after all this has happened.

At least I have the kids on my side in regards to keeping the Defender.[thumbsupbig]

[ozy013]

Ok, today I called the dealer, and actually got the same service assistant that I dealt with all the way back in January.

I explained the situation, and was infomed that they are flat out and can't look at it until the 24th of this month. I explained how I now have a vibration from the clutch area, that wasn't there prior to the work done by them. The transfer case is now leaking and they neglected to refit a support bracket on the gearbox. He said in regards to the bracket that "mistakes happen, but I find it highly unlikely that the clutch has been damaged during fitment or fitted incorrectly, as there's really not much involved in fitting one." I didn't realise that service assistants are also fully fledged mechanics now. As for the transfer case, well they'll have to investigate before jumping to conclusions. He also enquired as to the front diff, which I told him was fine, and had been professionally set up by another workshop. The same workshop that on test driving my Defender this week, discovered the oil leak/ vibration, and missing part. I also read out the report that Pickards made.

Now I have two options as far as I see it. Firstly I wait until the 24th, then hope that MCLR do the right thing and rectify the issues with no addtional cost to me. I've heard from others that they are pretty good at honouring warranty issues. But, from the workmanship I've seen will they just try to dodge the issue with the clutch, and just use the age old excuse that it's a "Defender thing!". The transfer case is definatley down to them as the vehicle has only done 20 or so km's since refitment. They might drop the gearbox, say there's no issue, then bill me for the hours spent on it. It's certainly not in their own interest to find issues with their own poor workmanship.

The second option is to let Pickards do the work, their attention to detail, and customer skills are excellent. Let them fix the leaking transfer case, and if they find the clutch damaged due to poor fitment, then ask Melbourne City Landrover to honour their own warranty and provide a replacement clutch at no cost. The only problem is, that it's been hinted that if any one else works on it then the clutch warranty is void.

One part of me wants to wash my hands of the dealer, and just walk away. But they should be held responsible if it's found that they caused these issues. Maybe I should try Consumer Affairs, see what they have to say.

[rar110]

Reliability is probably the most important thing. Go with who you have confidence with.

[Pickles2]

ozy013, you're in a bit of a quandary aren't you?!
I reckon that as MCLR have had a pretty good record with guys on here prior to your episode, that you let them have a look at the clutch/vibration issue, because if it is the clutch that is the problem, then surely they would not be able to deny you a cost free fix? And in addition, because of the stand you took last time, I believe that they'd be making very sure that you drive away a happy man.
Pickles.

[DazzaTD5]

Well this arvo, I finally drove it home from Pickards. The backlash in the driveline is totally gone, and except for the vibration, which is also there at idle, it's great to drive.

Pickards put it back on the hoist on Friday, after my drive with the mechanic, to try to isolate the vibration. It was then they discovered that my transfer case is now leaking, not only that but the dealer forgot to plug in my park brake light loom, and they left this little part sitting in the footwell on the passenger side.:wallbash:

120171

I was going to ask here if anyone knew where it was supposed to be fitted, but i think I've found the answer here;
http://cat.lrparts.ru/1235_037765296.jpeg
Looks like it's a support bracket for the high/low range lever.(Number 2)
Would the lack of this support bracket be causing the vibration?

After inspecting the leaking transfer case on arriving home, the leak is pretty bad, it's dripping on the driveway. ( I'll take some photo's tomorrow when the light's better). I've decided to call the Dealer on Monday and book it in to try to get them to rectify the issues they've caused. The transfer case wasn't leaking before it went into Landrover, and neither was the vibration there. So lets hope they come to the party and sort it without trying to charge me.

I'll be so happy when this whole saga is behind me, and I can venture of road again. Ah well one step at a time

Its not a support bracket, its a plastic cover that clips over the top lever assembly as depicted above.

Regards
Daz

[DazzaTD5]

120223

This is the leak I now have. I didn't get a chance to take a photo until this evening, the kids had Kendo grading all afternoon.
I spoke to a couple of people today, and it looks like the bracket is more of a cover for the wiring on the gearbox, rather than a support. But it still needs refitting.

I guess I'm just taking it one step at a time Chris, If I start thinking about it too much It does my head in. Especially a couple of times where my wife has argued that we should sell it. It's hard to argue the point for keeping it at times after all this has happened.

At least I have the kids on my side in regards to keeping the Defender.[thumbsupbig]



The leak is caused by poor assembly..... (DOH)...... In the centre of that wet leaky spot you can clearly see a bolt head (its one of the transfer case mounting bolts).... that bolt needs to have sealant applied to it before installation as the threaded hole in the transfer case is below the fluid level, there is also a bolt above it at the top of the transfer case, I normally apply sealant to that bolt as well.

Regards
Daz

[ozy013]

Thanks Daz, yeah when I looked up that plastic part in Microcat it said support bracket, so it's just a cover to stop the crap getting in.

Just another short update.
Yesterday I called Land Rover Australia, I was just trying to get some clarification on a couple of thing before I made a decision in regards to which way to proceed. They thought it may be possible to have another dealer rectify the problems, but because the claim has been made against Melbourne City Land Rover, then it has to go back to them. I just can't wait 3 weeks for them to look at it. They called the dealer trying to get them to book it in earlier, but no luck yet. I now even have a Land Rover Australia Victorian case manager, but they don't seem to have much influence over the dealer.

So this afternoon I spoke with the Victorian Ombudsman, and after that conversation I have booked it in next Friday with Pickards to have the issues sorted. The Ombudsman said that as long as the Independant workshop documents the strip down and takes photos of any poor workmanship, then I will be able to make a claim through them.

My wife is really pressing the point that I should sell the vehicle, It's hard trying to convince her to keep it when all this is going down, especially as I've had to borrow money from a friend to get Pickards to rectify Landrover's stuff ups. I'm out of funds, so after this episode there won't be any other modifications for a long while. That's if I don't have to sell it.

Not in a happy place at the moment.

[El Rey]

Bloody hell mate.

Regarding MCLR (where I bought my 110), I wonder if things might have changed since the ownership/management change of hands last year.

[ozy013]

Finally my car is back on the road, but unfotunatley thats not the end of the saga.

Pickards sorted it last week, and they were shocked by Melbourne City Landrovers lack of care and poor workmanship.

This is part of their report "Removed clutch and flywheel. Cause for vibration; FLYWHEEL NOT MACHINED, flywheel not cleaned, debri found in bell housing, found dirt under clutch and flywheel mating surfaces, bell housing bolts not tight. Also noted exhaust to turbo studs damaged/stipped." They also noted that the transfer case input seal had been damaged, and they discovered silastic around the seal.

So I've had to borrow money to get all this fixed, and now I'm trying to get the money I spent at Melbourne City Landrover back. Pickards have taken photos of Melbourne City Landrovers effort. I'm just waiting for them to be sent via email on Monday.

I called Melbourne City Landrover this week, and yet again got to speak to the same service assistant I've dealt with during this whole saga. I told him the situation, his reply was I should've brought it back to them if it was so severe, and they would've fixed it. I reminded him of our conversation over 3 weeks ago, and that back then I was told it was not possible for my vehicle to be looked at until the Friday just gone, the 24th, they were just too busy. He denied saying that. It was at this stage that I asked to speak to someone higher up, I also enquired if these phone calls are recorded for quality purposes, as that would be very helpful. Apparantley they get deleted regularly.
He kept saying that it was up to them to rectify the issue, and not another workshop, and that he couldn't understand why I would take my vehicle elsewhere. I explained that he should put himself in my shoes, I'd just spent over $2000 at Melbourne City Landrover to get a clutch fitted properly, and they'd botched it, whats to say that they wouldn't do it again, especially since they'd stuffed it so much the first time round.
Several of the bellhousing bolts were just finger tight.:wallbash:

He also accused me of driving my vehicle whilst it was in this condition, further damaging it. Now the Km's on it when it went to Melbourne City Landrover was 97583, when I took it to Pickards to get the vibration fixed it had 97694, as I only drove it home and then back to the workshop. I've been using a hire car and mates to get me to and from work. The transfer case was leaking too much, even when cold, for me to take it anywhere.
So my Defender had done 111km's on the new clutch that Melbourne City Landrover had fitted.

Consumer Affairs have told me to raise the issue with Melbourne City Landrover first, before taking it up with them. So once I get all the photo's together, then I'll head in there sometime next week, apparently I have to speak to Freddy, as he's the head of service and wasn't in when I called this week.

I'd also like to thank everyone for their support and best wishes, I've had quite alot of uplifting PM's, so thank you.

I've also had a couple of messages warning me that one of the service managers of Melbourne City Landrover is active on this forum, and that I should be careful about what I say. I think I've been fair, and quite restrained so far.

[rangieman]

Finally my car is back on the road, but unfotunatley thats not the end of the saga.

Pickards sorted it last week, and they were shocked by Melbourne City Landrovers lack of care and poor workmanship.

This is part of their report "Removed clutch and flywheel. Cause for vibration; FLYWHEEL NOT MACHINED, flywheel not cleaned, debri found in bell housing, found dirt under clutch and flywheel mating surfaces, bell housing bolts not tight. Also noted exhaust to turbo studs damaged/stipped." They also noted that the transfer case input seal had been damaged, and they discovered silastic around the seal.

So I've had to borrow money to get all this fixed, and now I'm trying to get the money I spent at Melbourne City Landrover back. Pickards have taken photos of Melbourne City Landrovers effort. I'm just waiting for them to be sent via email on Monday.

I called Melbourne City Landrover this week, and yet again got to speak to the same service assistant I've dealt with during this whole saga. I told him the situation, his reply was I should've brought it back to them if it was so severe, and they would've fixed it. I reminded him of our conversation over 3 weeks ago, and that back then I was told it was not possible for my vehicle to be looked at until the Friday just gone, the 24th, they were just too busy. He denied saying that. It was at this stage that I asked to speak to someone higher up, I also enquired if these phone calls are recorded for quality purposes, as that would be very helpful. Apparantley they get deleted regularly.
He kept saying that it was up to them to rectify the issue, and not another workshop, and that he couldn't understand why I would take my vehicle elsewhere. I explained that he should put himself in my shoes, I'd just spent over $2000 at Melbourne City Landrover to get a clutch fitted properly, and they'd botched it, whats to say that they wouldn't do it again, especially since they'd stuffed it so much the first time round.
Several of the bellhousing bolts were just finger tight.:wallbash:

He also accused me of driving my vehicle whilst it was in this condition, further damaging it. Now the Km's on it when it went to Melbourne City Landrover was 97583, when I took it to Pickards to get the vibration fixed it had 97694, as I only drove it home and then back to the workshop. I've been using a hire car and mates to get me to and from work. The transfer case was leaking too much, even when cold, for me to take it anywhere.
So my Defender had done 111km's on the new clutch that Melbourne City Landrover had fitted.

Consumer Affairs have told me to raise the issue with Melbourne City Landrover first, before taking it up with them. So once I get all the photo's together, then I'll head in there sometime next week, apparently I have to speak to Freddy, as he's the head of service and wasn't in when I called this week.

I'd also like to thank everyone for their support and best wishes, I've had quite alot of uplifting PM's, so thank you.

I've also had a couple of messages warning me that one of the service managers of Melbourne City Landrover is active on this forum, and that I should be careful about what I say. I think I've been fair, and quite restrained so far.
Good news mate :BigThumb:
If said person is active on the forum so be it you have been in my opinion very tolerate over this .
I hope they come to the party with a reasonable settlement that is to your liking [wink11].