Lithium Battery

[Bradmc]

Hi All,

I just installed a Lithium Battery in my Motorcycle. Weight save is incredible, and the cost was comparable to a standard type battery.

So my questions are:

1. Can I install a Lithium deep cycle as my 2nd battery with my current setup of a Traxide D4-5U?

2. Would i need to run a specific lithium BMS?

3. Can i run the Traxide and lithium charger in tandem?

Just thoughts at this stage, but one i will consider when it is time to replace the 100ah Yellow Top.

Cheers
Brad

[mattims]

I think you will be losing some of the capacity of the lithium pack if you do this, as it's fully charged voltage is higher than a standard 12v battery, although to be honest it is not a huge percentage of charge your losing from not fully charging it.

I have run standard lithium cells without any BMS in my racecar for years now and the only problem I have had is over discharging them. They do not tolerate this at all. So as a second battery as long as you had a low voltage cut off on anything plugged into it I think it would be okay.

I very nearly did this setup myself when I last replaced the batteries in my defender also, but I got a good deal on 2 marine lead acids that fit in space I had so I didn't, but I can't see any particular reason it would not work.

I think i worked it out from the cells I was looking about using (Headway) you would lose only about 15% capacity by only charging them up to ~14 volts rather than fully charging them to ~14.6 volts.

[Tombie]

Tim (Traxide) can set his gear to suit Lithium aux batteries. Give him a yell - Drivesafe on this forum!

[drivesafe]

Hi Brad and here is some info relating to your questions.

1. Can I install a Lithium deep cycle as my 2nd battery with my current setup of a Traxide D4-5U? - NO

2. Would i need to run a specific lithium BMS? - YES

3. Can i run the Traxide and lithium charger in tandem? YES but the two battery types must be isolated from each other once the motor is off.

From experience gained from a number of D4 lithium battery installs, IMO, at this time, it is still more advantageous to stay with conventional battery type setups and they work out a lot cheaper.

[drivesafe]

I think i worked it out from the cells I was looking about using (Headway) you would lose only about 15% capacity by only charging them up to ~14 volts rather than fully charging them to ~14.6 volts.

Hi Matt and unfortunately it is not a small capacity lose.

While a lithium battery is connected to any form of lead acid battery, the lithium acts as a low current trickle charger for the lead acid battery and is continually being discharged by the lead acid battery.

[Bradmc]

Thanks again all. Useful information as always.

Tim,

If i decided to use Lithium batteries in my Camper Trailer that will come with a recommended BMS, the Traxide kit i have installed in my D4 will still supply power through the Anderson plug to charge the camper trailer batteries?

Thanks
Brad

[drivesafe]

Hi again Brad and yes, the Traxide system you have is fine.

As for charging the Lithiums, there are a number of ways, with DC/DC being the most common.

BUT, you can actually set up a much better system by using a 12v to 240vac inverter and a good quality battery charger, preferably one with a LITHIUM setting.

You then have your on the road charging, plus a 240vac power supply while free camping and a decent battery charger while on mains.

[PeterJ]

.........If i decided to use Lithium batteries in my Camper Trailer ........

Thanks
Brad

Hi Brad, I am just in the process of changing my caravan over to Lithium (Lithium Ferrous Phosphate - LiFeP04, or LFP) and I have been researching this upgrade for two years, my strongest possible advice is to do some serious home work before you put your hand in your pocket. There are plenty of people selling LFP batteries with so called BMS systems as drop in replacements for Lead Acid (FLA) if this is what you are considering, I strongly urge you to be very cautious with this approach. At the least just go and look at web sites of Mastervolt or Victron Energy, they sell properly configured systems, then ask yourself, how does the "drop in" work compared to these engineered systems?

Yes, LFP has some excellent advantages over FLA but other than the fact that it is a device to store electrical energy they have nothing much in common. You need a complete, and I mean complete paradigm change in the way you use these batteries if you want them to last and give the type of performance that they are capable of delivering. IMOH, peolpe and their "lead acid" programmed brains are the biggest problem.
You also need equipment that is specifically designed to manage them, do not buy the sales speak when a manufacturer tells you it has a "Lithium" charge profile. The question to ask is "can I customise the charge profile" if the answer is "no" shop somewhere else.

The BMS on a good Li system is not there to control the charge/discharge process, it is there as an insurance policy, to protect at cell level against high and low voltage events and stop cell imbalance buy cutting loads if a cell drifts.

Food for thought................................Peter

[drivesafe]

You also need equipment that is specifically designed to manage them, do not buy the sales speak when a manufacturer tells you it has a "Lithium" charge profile. The question to ask is "can I customise the charge profile" if the answer is "no" shop somewhere else.

And this is why I only use and recommend Sterling or Promariner battery charges.

They come with 12 different user settings including two dedicated Lithium charge setting and can also be setup in a user programmable custom setting.

I have been using these chargers and supplying them to customers, including quite a few lithium battery owners, for over 6 years now, and never had a problem with lithium battery charging.

In fact, one of my D4 customers bought some lithium batteries from a well known supplier and bought one of their recommended battery charges, which did not charge the lithium batteries properly.

After he had a few different chargers from the battery supplier, with out success, he bought both an Sterling inverter and Promariner ProNautic charger from me and finally, his system worked as it should, and5 years later, still is.

Both the Sterling and ProNautic charges are designed for the marine industry and have long established track record of successfully charging lithium battery banks for years before anyone else came up with anything comparable.

And again, by my customers having a separate inverter/charger setup, they have a far more versatile system, and usually at a much better setup cost.

[mattims]

Hi Matt and unfortunately it is not a small capacity lose.

While a lithium battery is connected to any form of lead acid battery, the lithium acts as a low current trickle charger for the lead acid battery and is continually being discharged by the lead acid battery.


Bringing back a very old thread here.... but I'm looking at battery options again.

Is there any reason the traxide system wouldn't work well if both batteries were lithium? Maybe the cutoff point might need to be adjusted due to lithium voltage/discharge curve, but I actually thought I read this was adjustable on the usi-160 I have anyway.

I know an alternator probably wont totally fully charge them (although my subaru seems to charge them to around 14.4 which is pretty close), but I can just add more capactiy to take that into account and still have pretty good weight savings for the same capacity. The starting current capacity on commercially available lithium packs seems to be very conservative. Is this actually the truth with these cells or are the manufacturers just being very careful.

I have a 20ah pack ( 8 cells total, 2 p 4s) in my subaru and it starts the car no problems, it see around 300amp draw whilst cranking.


anyone played with using only lithium yet?

[drivesafe]

Hi Matt, with lithium cranking batteries, you only need quite a small battery, but it must be up to the charging algorithms of the D4.

Your Subaru’s charging voltage is pretty well set at 14.4v and even the new Subaru’s with STOP/START, the alternator voltage is either 14.4v or at the battery’s voltage during a STOP/START event, but in this case, you will need a much bigger capacity battery, and there are other potential problems.

Reverse is the case with your D4. Most lithium’s will not tolerate much over 14.4v max, but some can take 14.7v.

As the D4 regularly operates at 14.v, you will need to make sure the brand of lithium battery will take 14.7v.

As for a dual battery isolator with lithium batteries. Because lithium batteries sit at a constant voltage during discharging, around 13.2v, a conventional VSR will not work.

I set up my first lithium auxiliary battery in a D4, about 6 years ago, and learnt by trial and error, what will work and won’t.

If the vehicle is NOT a STOP/START type, then a IGNITION controlled solenoid can be used.

With STOP/START featured vehicles, if your want both batteries to remain connected during a STOP/START event ( a good idea ), because the ignition remains on while the motor is stopped, then the Ignition controlled solenoid is fine.

If you need to sperate the batteries during a STOP/START event, ( or need to turn a DC/DC device off ) then with most new European vehicles, there is a FRIDGE circuit, that is only on while the motor is running ( all D4s have this feature ), and you can use this circuit to control a solenoid to separate the batteries when the ignition is turned off, or during a STOP/START event.

[Tombie]

I went down this path a while back.

The overwhelming result - stick to AGM for now.
The technology isn’t mature enough to gain any benefit in something like a D4. (Apart from perhaps 20kg).

Cost Benefit - AGMs kick LiFePO4 systems arse.
An auxiliary LiFePO4 is different, there’s performance gains to be had. But at the moment Pb Crystal is more cost effective and has performance benefits.

[trout1105]

Only yesterday I decided to do some battery maintenance and as a result I had to replace 2x boat batteries, 2x caravan batteries and I had to install 2x aux batteries in the new (Well new to us) 79 series ute because it didn't have enough power reserve with a single aux to run the 120l 12v freezer and this was quite an expensive exercise even though the replacement batteries were all AGM types.
To replace all these batteries with lithium types would have been hugely expensive at about 5x the cost and personally I just couldn't justify the expense because I can't see the lithium types being 5x as good as the AGM types.
The batteries in the boat and the van were both about 8 years old and were still working But at a lower capacity than their specs and this is the reason why I changed them out.