Rear sideseats

[klonk]

Have just read Dintys last post about fitting rear side seats to his S1 and was wondering if anyone has any knowledge of the legalitys of carrying passengers on the road.
I also have a set that I want to fit to Klonk and use. I suppose each state will be different.

Cheers Steve

[Mick_Marsh]

Pre edition 2 ADRs. Should be as simple as just bolting them in. No seat belts neccessary.
Ah, but you do live in WA.

Did anyone hear any further info from that fellow who was taking the WA motor licensing people to task over their refusal to register his 2a shorty with rear seats?

[chazza]

Steve, have a look on the Dept of Transport website; they have a link to the standards for manufacturing your own seats, from the national authority.

I have always found the people in the engineering section at DoT very helpful, so it is worth ringing them and asking for their advice. Ultimately, DoT has the say on whether you can fit them or not,

Cheers Charlie

[Dinty]

I also don't think you can carry passengers in the rear whilst on the road, I just bought the seats to fill in the missing bits from the vehicle, I certainly will carry people in the back (if they wanted a ride) on private property and driving sensibly, cheers Dennis :)
ps I'm now on the lookout for the 2 grab handles,,.

[Mick_Marsh]

I also don't think you can carry passengers in the rear whilst on the road, I just bought the seats to fill in the missing bits from the vehicle, I certainly will carry people in the back (if they wanted a ride) on private property and driving sensibly, cheers Dennis :)
ps I'm now on the lookout for the 2 grab handles,,.
The way the law looks at it is "if there are seats there, they can be used.
So, If they can not legally be used, they must be removed."


What makes you think you can't carry passengers whilst on the road?

[JDNSW]

As far as I am aware, in NSW, the only restriction is that young children are not supposed to travel in side facing seats. As a general rule, changes in regulations are not retrospective.

Just as well, since there are many current ADRs that Series 1 Landrovers fail to meet - and the same goes for any cars built prior to the current ADRs, and the older, the more ADRs they tend not to meet.

John

[THE BOOGER]

I havent checked the date seat belts became compulsory but current adr says sideways seating is legal for every thing except baby capsules

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2012L00468

5.3 is specific lap belts only no other apparent retstrictions:)

[Mick_Marsh]

I havent checked the date seat belts became compulsory
https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/pdf/04.pdf


For passenger cars, front 1.1.69, rear 1.1.71.
For Landrovers, I read it as, front 1.1.70, rear 1.1.71.

[JDNSW]

While all states and territories in theory adhere to the Commonwealth design rules, the actual rules for each state or territory are those implemented in state law or regulations. While some are clearly defined, such as the dates for fitting of seat belts on new vehicles, some of the other rules, such as side facing seats, are far less clearly defined.

As an example, ADRs specify when seat belts have to be fitted, but rules for wearing these are purely state/territory ones - and typically apply regardless of whether the ADR required belts - if fitted, they must be worn, even if they were not required to be fitted.

John

[Mick_Marsh]

ROAD SAFETY ROAD RULES 2009 - REG 267

Exemptions from wearing seatbelts or sitting in child restraints or booster seats


(1) A person is exempt from wearing a seatbelt if?
Rule 267(1)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(1). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html)
(a) the Corporation has certified that it would be impracticable, undesirable or inexpedient for the person, or a class of persons of which the person concerned is a member, to wear a seatbelt; and
(b) the conditions stated in the certificate (if any) and those imposed under subrule (4) are complied with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with); and
Rule 267(1)(c) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 47/2012 rule 21(1). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s21.html)
(c) in the case of a person who is a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) in or on a motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) 2 or more rows of seats'the person is not in the front row of seats.
Note
Motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is defined in the Road Safety Act 1986 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125/).
(1A) A person in or on a motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is exempt from wearing a seatbelt if?
(a) the seating position that he or she occupies is not fitted with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) a seatbelt; and
(b) there is no requirement for that seating position to be fitted with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) a seatbelt; and
(c) all passengers (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) in the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) who are exempt from wearing a seatbelt are complying with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) subrule (8).
(1B) Subrule (1A) does not apply to a person who is under 7 years old.


(1C) To avoid doubt, subrule (1A) does not authorise a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) to whom subrule 266(3) or (3A) applies to occupy a seat in the front row of seats in a vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) that has 2 or more rows of seats.
(2) A person in or on a motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is exempt from wearing a seatbelt if?
(a) the person is engaged in the door-to-door delivery or collection of goods, or in the collection of waste or garbage, and is required to get in or out of the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle), or on or off the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle), at frequent intervals; and
(b) the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is not travelling over 25 kilometres per hour.
Note
Motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is defined in the Road Safety Act 1986 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125/).
Rule 267(2A) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) inserted by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(2). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html)
(2A) Subrule (2) does not apply to a person who is under 7 years old.


(3) The Corporation may issue a certificate stating?
Rule 267(3)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(3). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html)
(a) that it is impractical, undesirable or inexpedient that the person, or class of persons, named in the certificate wear a seatbelt; and
(b) any conditions to which the certificate is subject.
Rule 267(3A) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(2). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
(3A) A person is exempt from wearing a seatbelt or being restrained in an approved child restraint or being placed in an approved booster seat (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#approved_booster_seat) if?

Rule 267 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html)
(3A)(a) amended by S.R. Nos 146/2014 rule 23(4)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html), 125 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s125.html)/2015 rule 12(3) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html),
(4)(a).
(a) a registered medical practitioner has issued a certificate stating that, because of a disability or medical condition, it is impractical, undesirable or inexpedient that the person wear a seatbelt or be restrained in an approved child restraint or be placed in an approved booster seat (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#approved_booster_seat); and
Rule 267 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html)
(3A)(b) amended by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(4)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html), substituted by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(4)(b). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
(b) the certificate?
(i) is signed by a registered medical practitioner; and
(ii) contains an expiry date and has not expired; and

(c) the conditions stated in the certificate (if any) and those imposed under subrule (4) are complied with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with).
Note to rule 267(3A) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) revoked by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(4)(b). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html)
* * * * *



Note to rule 267(3A) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) inserted by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(5). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
Note
Approved booster seat (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#approved_booster_seat) and approved child restraint are defined in the dictionary.

Rule 267(3B) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) inserted by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(6). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
(3B) A person who is less than 7 years old and who is exempt from being restrained in an approved child restraint or being placed in an approved booster (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#approved_booster_seat) seat (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#approved_booster_seat) under subrule (3A)?
(a) must occupy a seating position that is fitted with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) an approved seatbelt; and


(b) must not occupy the same seating position as another passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) (whether or not the other passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) is exempt from wearing a seatbelt under this rule); and
(c) must wear the approved seatbelt properly adjusted and fastened; and
(d) must not occupy a seating position in the front row unless also exempt under subrule (3C).
Note
"Approved booster seat", approved child restraint and approved seatbelt are defined in the dictionary.
Rule 267(3C) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) inserted by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(6). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
(3C) A person who is less than 7 years old and who is a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) in a vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is exempt from the front row restrictions set out in rule 266(3) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s266.html) and (3A) if?
(a) a registered medical practitioner has issued a certificate stating that, because of a disability or medical condition, the person should be permitted to travel in the front row of a motor vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle); and
(b) the certificate?
(i) is signed by a registered medical practitioner; and
(ii) contains an expiry date and has not expired; and
(c) the conditions stated in the certificate (if any) and those imposed under subrule (4) are complied with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with).




Rule 267(4) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(7) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
(4) A certificate issued under subrule (3), (3A)(a) or (3C)(a) is subject to the condition that?


Rule 267(4)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 47/2012 rule 21(2). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s21.html)
(a) if the certificate is carried in the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) in or on which the person to whom it applies is travelling; and

(b) the certificate is produced by the person, or the driver (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s219.html#driver) of the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle), when requested to do so by a police officer or authorised (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s307.html#authorised_person) person (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s307.html#authorised_person).
Note
Authorised person (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s307.html#authorised_person) and police officer are defined in the dictionary.
(5) A person is exempt from wearing a seatbelt if?
Rule 267(5)(a) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 7/2010 rule 6(1). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s6.html)
(a) the person is a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) in or on a police vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s299.html#police_vehicle), emergency vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s307.html#emergency_vehicle) or enforcement vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle); and

(b) either?
(i) if the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) has 2 or more rows of seats'the person is not in the front row of seats or there is not a seating position available for the person in another row of seats; or
(ii) if the vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) is a police vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s299.html#police_vehicle) and has a caged, or other secured, area (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s178.html#area) designed for the carriage of passengers (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger)'the person occupies a seating position in that area (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s178.html#area).
Note to rule 267(5) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) amended by S.R. No. 7/2010 rule 6(2). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s6.html)
Note
"Emergency vehicle", enforcement vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) and police vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s299.html#police_vehicle) are defined in the dictionary.

(6) A person is exempt from wearing a seatbelt if he or she is providing or receiving medical treatment of an urgent and necessary nature while in or on a vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle).
(7) If a truck or bus has a sleeper compartment, a two-up driver (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html#two-up_driver) of the truck or bus is exempt from wearing a seatbelt while he or she occupies the sleeper compartment for rest purposes.
Note
Bus is defined in the Road Safety Act 1986 (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/rsa1986125/) and truck is defined in the dictionary.
(8) If a vehicle (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s142.html#vehicle) does not have seatbelts or approved child restraints fitted to all its passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) seating positions, a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) who is exempt from wearing a seatbelt under this rule must not occupy a seating position that is fitted with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) a seatbelt or an approved child restraint if the result would be that a passenger (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s270.html#passenger) who is not exempt from wearing a seatbelt under this rule would be required to occupy a seating position that is not fitted with (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s317.html#with) a seatbelt or an approved child restraint.
Note to rule 267(8) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) inserted by S.R. No. 125/2015 rule 12(8). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s12.html)
Note
Approved child restraint is defined in the dictionary.


(9) In this rule?
Rule 267(9) (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s267.html) def. of medical practitioner revoked by S.R. No. 146/2014 rule 23(5). (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s23.html)
* * * * *



"two-up driver" means a person accompanying a driver (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/rsrr2009208/s219.html#driver) of a truck or bus on a journey, or part of a journey, who has been, is or will be sharing the task of driving the truck or bus during the journey.
i.e. generally, if there is no seat belt available for the seating position you are seated in, you are exempt for the requirement of using a seat belt.

[chazza]

In the case of Klonk, he will be defined in WA as a utility.

In WA it is illegal to ride in the back of a utility. If Steve gets permission to add seats, I think it would help his case if he shows photos of how the 86" Station Wagon was set up with rear seating.

Mind you, given the law about utes and the restrictions on where a child can sit in a motor vehicle in WA, it may be a difficult task to convince the authorities that converting an essentially unsafe ute from the early 50's to carry more people, is a good thing.

Good luck Steve - your restoration is superb!

Cheers Charlie

[klonk]

Thanks guys for your ideas, may have a lead to talking to the right people on the matter.

While discussing this subject at work the other day I was reminded about this business in town I'd forgotten about.



Home - Big Red Fire Engine (http://bigredfireengine.webs.com)



Must give them a call and see how he managed to get permission. Will let you know

Ps I see they also do tours in Sydney and Perth , there are phone no's on their contact page.


Cheers Steve

[klonk]

Tonight I gave Julie at ''The big red fire engine'' a call, she was happy to help.

So basicly if the vehicle had the side seats fitted they are not illegal to use, hence their use of fire engines.
Seatbelts are not recomended by the DoT for the side seats as they cause more injury due to twisting of your spine especially at low to moderate speeds. Seatbelts are not fitted to their fire engines.

But Julie also has a letter from the DoT that she carries when out and about, stating that she is not breaking the law, as she regularly gets hasselled by the enthusiastic young coppers with no idea about old cars, they even pick on the non cancelling indicators. She lets them ramble on for a while , if they dont see reason then she drops the letter out and says Im happy to see you in court! "They can see I have hire car number plates so do they really think Im going to have anything illegal and risk my bussiness."

So where do I stand? Well the seat mounting holes in the back are there, drilled from factory as standard, with no bolts in them, so whos to say the seats werent fitted in the past, it may have been owned by a farmer that fitted the seats to take the kids to town or carry farm hands around the farm. I also have a land rover sales pamphlet from 1954 showing the seats as optional equipment as well as an instruction manual with the seats listed in the optional section.
I will phone the DoT For a chat and see what they have to say but when rego time comes the seats will be fitted and well see what happens.

Cheers Steve

[chazza]

So where do I stand? Well the seat mounting holes in the back are there, drilled from factory as standard, with no bolts in them, so whos to say the seats werent fitted in the past, it may have been owned by a farmer that fitted the seats to take the kids to town or carry farm hands around the farm. I also have a land rover sales pamphlet from 1954 showing the seats as optional equipment as well as an instruction manual with the seats listed in the optional section.
I will phone the DoT For a chat and see what they have to say but when rego time comes the seats will be fitted and well see what happens.

Cheers Steve

Good move Steve; you have all the right evidence to make your case.

Good luck!

Cheers Charlie

[101RRS]

The only issue you may have is if records held for your vehicle indicate it is a 3 seater - which indicates it never originally had rear seats or they were officially removed.

So if you now turn up with rear seats they may query that. Does your state record seating capacity on the rego docs? If not then dont worry because as mentioned rear seats were always available for them.

Garry

[JDNSW]

I'll bet they did not record seat numbers when it was first registered - but how recently has it been registered, or perhaps more pertinently, re-registered?

John

[klonk]

I have a clean skin no rego papers and no rego plates and being a Queensland car no dealer records either, all I know it was dispatched from the factory on the 27/10/50 to Annard and Thomson, Brisbane.

[JDNSW]

I have a clean skin no rego papers and no rego plates and being a Queensland car no dealer records either, all I know it was dispatched from the factory on the 27/10/50 to Annard and Thomson, Brisbane.

Whose records were destroyed in a flood. It is barely possible that Qld may still have some details, but I doubt that even if they did these would include number of seats. (And you would have to start the enquiry with the Q-plate number, which you probably don't know.)

John

[russellrovers]

I also don't think you can carry passengers in the rear whilst on the road, I just bought the seats to fill in the missing bits from the vehicle, I certainly will carry people in the back (if they wanted a ride) on private property and driving sensibly, cheers Dennis :)
ps I'm now on the lookout for the 2 grab handles,,. have them here regards jim

[1950landy]

A friend of mine fitted origional side mounted seats in the back of his 80" before he registered it & when he took it for rego they registered it as a 7 seater in Qld. This was about 20 or more hears ago. He was in the police force so should have known wearher it was leagle or not.