Caravan aircon regas?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Our last trip away showed up the aircons age,,
I actually have the sale invoice( $1500 in 1991 in PERTH!), so I reckon it was good value for money!
its a Wren Series 2000, rotary vane type, 3.1kw cooling and 3kw heating.

now, how do I re-gas it?
or even can I?
I gather the gas type will be that bad one?

commercial? home? or mobile aircon guy?

[rick130]

It'd be R22 in that old girl Pedro.
The wholesale price has gone through the roof (due to import restrictions) but there are hundreds of kg being recovered daily and stockpiled by fridgies, so if you can find a compliant fridgie you can get refrigerant at mates rates as it hasn't cost them a cent except for the time and use of their recovery machine. :angel:
A 'drop in' refrigerant such as DuPont's MO99 would work well too, and R407c could be an option as well, a number of chillers I work on use R407c as a modern alternative to R22. I believe Scary uses it a fair bit too.

You'll need a domestic/commercial air conditioning or refrigeration tech to look at it, our car a/c mates don't have the right gas and probably not the right service fittings. (1/4" SAE, the same as the old R12 car ones)

[justinc]

Rick what would be a good service interval? I have a aircommand ibis and after 3 years ( gets used a lot) is it worthwhile?

Jc

[DoubleChevron]

Have a look at the hychill website... I have a feeling bang gas will work. Most of us DIY guys have a few kg of bang gas in our sheds. It's no big deal to unscrew the quick release fittings on your A/C setup, leak test and recharge the A/C. Do you know hte charge weight though ?

seeya
Shaen L.,

[LandyAndy]

Cant think of anything more dangerous Shayne??
I would never use LPG in any aircon.May as well leave the gas turned on whilst touring,would save turning it on and off every day.
Andrew

[rick130]

Have a look at the hychill website... I have a feeling bang gas will work. Most of us DIY guys have a few kg of bang gas in our sheds. It's no big deal to unscrew the quick release fittings on your A/C setup, leak test and recharge the A/C. Do you know hte charge weight though ?

seeya
Shaen L.,

It won't work, the old unit will be on R22, read my post above. ;)

[rick130]

Rick what would be a good service interval? I have a aircommand ibis and after 3 years ( gets used a lot) is it worthwhile?

Jc

JC, keep the filters and evap clean, run some warm water and detergent down the drain before summer and make sure the condenser is clear.

If it's still cooling ok, leave it alone. :D

[Pedro_The_Swift]

anyone with a clever idea on how to access a caravan air con?
skyhook?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

so Rick,, you finally killed those bugs,,,
public opinion get the better of you?:p

[rick130]

anyone with a clever idea on how to access a caravan air con?
skyhook?

That'd be handy. :D

Last one I did was with a ladder and climbed on top of the roof.

It was a few years ago on a gooseneck/fifth wheeler.
Luckily the young lady i did it for's family business is horse floats and trailers and they gave me the ok to do it.

[rick130]

so Rick,, you finally killed those bugs,,,
public opinion get the better of you?:p

I didn't think one day and 'SWAT' with the paper. :(







:D

[LandyAndy]

Pedro,I thought Beeutys frog may have got the bugs.
Andrew

[DoubleChevron]

It won't work, the old unit will be on R22, read my post above. ;)

https://hychill.com.au/products/minus-40


I'd use it in a heartbeat... It'll only be a few hundred grams.... It would be perfectly safe in a caravan IMO. Think of how bad it stinks if it leaks. You'd know immediatly.

Infact, I've got it in my cars (-30)... Brilliant stuff. I would NEVER use it in a cool room as they have too larger a quantity, and the evap side is in a sealed room, not a vented cabin like a caravan.

seeya,
Shane L.

[DoubleChevron]

anyone with a clever idea on how to access a caravan air con?
skyhook?

Put something that will support your weight across your roof. (eg: ladder/length timber).... No fun at all :(

[Toxic_Avenger]

200g can of butane is enough to blow a limb off. Or create a nice bbq for a good few minutes. I personally wouldn't want 'only a few hundred grams' of anything flammable burning/exploding in my general vicinity.

In my understanding, Hychill and other natural refrigerants are OK to use, but not recommended for vehicle applications. Most of this has to do with its flammability (opposed to the non flammable, non toxic equivalents used by the OEMs).
What's not ok is to handle a CFC, HFC, or HCFC system without the proper handling licence. ie converting from R22, R134a or whatever to Hychill needs to be done by a professional. 'Letting the gas out' will get you in trouble with the law, the hippies etc.

[DoubleChevron]

200g can of butane is enough to blow a limb off. Or create a nice bbq for a good few minutes. I personally wouldn't want 'only a few hundred grams' of anything flammable burning/exploding in my general vicinity.

In my understanding, Hychill and other natural refrigerants are OK to use, but not recommended for vehicle applications. Most of this has to do with its flammability (opposed to the non flammable, non toxic equivalents used by the OEMs).
What's not ok is to handle a CFC, HFC, or HCFC system without the proper handling licence. ie converting from R22, R134a or whatever to Hychill needs to be done by a professional. 'Letting the gas out' will get you in trouble with the law, the hippies etc.

Yeah I know.... It's stresses the living **** out of me. With the 70litre of LPG in the boot, the 80 litres of high octane petrol in the plastic petrol tank. That 300grams of butane in my A/C frightens the hell out of me.

Do some research. There is refrigerant fires in cars .... All I could find were R134a. It's the oil that burns under pressure. Having said that, I sure wouldn't want to see a car with 300grams of lpg sealed in it ignited. There would be more chance of me winning tatts 4 weeks in a row than this happening though. almost all leaks are very slow ... and no car I've ever own wouldn't just leak any lpg stragith back out the bottom.... 'cos there sure not air tight.

seeya,
Shane L.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Your call mate.
I think we've already ascertained that you live on the edge.

Your other DG on board your vehicle is outside the scope of this discussion. The fact stands that Hychill is a DG Flammable gas 2, while R22 / R134a is DG 2.2 (Non flammable, non toxic). In a fault situation, where the system may lose pressure, this is a pretty important characteristic of the gas. There is merit in this fact, even if you don't care to admit it. I'm sure these same considerations are taken into account when all the vehicle manufacturers charge their vehicles with r134a over all the cheaper, flammable alternatives.

What I would really like is for you to elaborate on the below.

It's no big deal to unscrew the quick release fittings on your A/C setup, leak test and recharge the A/C.
Are you in the trade?

[incisor]

Hychill makes an early range rover a much nicer creature in summer.. but I have it done professionally as it is beyond me

[rick130]

FWIW HC's are in use in domestic fridges and and commercial applications, eg. all the freezers in any Aldi use R290. (Propane) Anything that has to be done on the refrigeration system in those and the cabinet has to be removed from site. :D
Talking to a couple of engineers from Electrolux, all the switches, controls, etc in their domestic fridges are spark proof, even though a full size fridge contains only 60g of R600 (isobutane)

I just checked a P/T chart, and R290 looks like an excellent drop in replacement for R22 with much better efficiencies, if you aren't worried about the flammability aspect. Charge weight is extremely low too.
Would I use it commercially ?
No.


FWIW most of the domestic air con manufacturers are moving away from R410a and going to R32, another (mildly) flammable refrigerant.
Fujitsu started the transition several years ago, and Daikin and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries have moved to it.
Another bloody refrigerant to carry, and supposedly we all need spark proof vac pumps, recovery units, etc now. :(

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I really cant see an issue with flammability,,
with a gas stove we already have that inside the van,, and all vans are built to "drain" any gas out the step,, check your door for louvers,,;)
just watched a vid of some guying re-gassing a system using MO99 and it took him 2 and a half hours!
is that amount of time normal Rick?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Just found some more paperwork,, :D it seems mine is a "boosted" Wren,, 3.5kw's, designed by aircommand for trucks buses, road machinery etc, 12K btu's
Suck on that Ibis3!:p

[scarry]

There is also a good chance it may not be low on gas,due to age,may just need a good dismantle and clean,or something else may be wrong,compresser may not be pumping properly or whatever.

The AC unit in your application is not 'automotive' as it is a fixed 240v appliance,not off engine drive.

Two completely different applications.

R22 is the best refrigerant as it was designed for it.

If it is low the leak will need to be repaired before it is recharged.

There is that much r22 around,you should be able to find someone local at a good price.

If not R407c is the next option,but an oil additive must be added as well,as the compressor, more than likely is operating on mineral oil.

[rick130]

How long does it take ?

Recover original charge (what's left), evacuate and try and pull sub 400 micron vacuum, charge with new refrigerant while checking superheat plus air off temps to get the new charge right, and put it all back together, yep, it can take that easily.

It can be faster, it can take longer too, so many variables including system size.
Eg. one of our young techs did two 16 hour days and then a little more trying to get a chiller back up and running last week after a solenoid valve cracked, but that system takes 180kg of R134a. :D
A smaller 80kw chiller took me several days too, but I left the vac pump on for two days as I was struggling to get a decent vacuum, couldn't get under 1200 microns.
Bloody vacstat sensor was contaminated with oil. :mad:

FWIW I found MO99/R438a a really good drop in for R22, it works nicely in heat pumps.

[DoubleChevron]

I really cant see an issue with flammability,,
with a gas stove we already have that inside the van,, and all vans are built to "drain" any gas out the step,, check your door for louvers,,;)
just watched a vid of some guying re-gassing a system using MO99 and it took him 2 and a half hours!
is that amount of time normal Rick?

That's what I said... Bang gas in a coolroom scares the **** out of me ( as it's a sealed, air tight room evap side). But a caravan is designed to vent any gas that is heavier than air.

[gavinwibrow]

Just found some more paperwork,, :D it seems mine is a "boosted" Wren,, 3.5kw's, designed by aircommand for trucks buses, road machinery etc, 12K btu's
Suck on that Ibis3!:p
Pedro me lad. Why didn't you post this before my brick came with Ibis 3 - which is marginal at best on a hot day for a 20 foot plus "insulated" caravan. :o

[Toxic_Avenger]

Hychill minus 40 is high purity propane. Nothing too flash.
Same calculations would work for 'ballpark' LPG- LPG is mostly propane, with some butane added.

The lower explosive limit (LEL) of propane is 2.2%, Upper explosive limit (UEL) is ~9.5% (in air). In this range, you get an explosion.
1M3 of propane (gas state) weighs in at 1.898kg.
It's density is 1.55 times heavier than air (1.898kg/m3 propane, vs 1.225kg/m3 for air, at 1bar, 15C).

Assuming a big caravan, say, 24m3 (2m x 2m x 6m- empty shell- disregarding any volume of furniture, cabinets, etc), you'd need approx 0.53m3 of propane to reach the Lower explosive limit. This relates to approx 900g propane to go bang.

Reduce the size of the caravan to something more modest, add furniture that displaces air, add sources of ignition, and things can go pear shaped. Doubly so if HVAC equipment and/or ignition sources are in a cabinet or other inclosed space.

Would a pressed metal vent in caravan door be sufficient to vent a suitable mass of propane before it diffuses around the space to reach the LEL? I don't know. But would I mitigate the risk if I have a choice? Heck yess.

Moving from a caravan to a vehicle- an engine bay with points ignition, hot surfaces and a lower M3 volume of available space would not require much of a propane leak to cause a problem.
As another example, your coolroom (lets assume a little 8m3 -2x2x2m- trailer mounted coolroom) would require as little as 330g propane to go bang.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Thanks Toxy,,
I'm wondering on the amounts of "sudden leaks" in vans,, mine has lasted 26 years,,
and it has to be a ^^ for an aircon to be a concern..
any slow leaks during the day time will be sussed pretty quick,, we had a leak from a bottle in the front and you can smell them easily if it happens,,
there aren't that many points of ignition in a van, even during the day! and during the day the door is opened regularly,,


all this pales into insignificance as we've had a underbonnet LPG hose split and we heard and smelt it at the same time, and abandoned ship REALLY quickly!!!:eek::p

[Toxic_Avenger]

I'm extra cautious, as I had a car aircon degass itself catastrophically once. Funnily enough it was as I was pulling into a mechanic to get a quote for some other work.
Hot day, low 40's, a heat-soaked system, and a short drive as it was trying to cool was enough for the condensor to let go. TThere was that much smoke that I'd thought a radiator hose had let go, as smoke/steam was billowing out from the bonnet. The mechanic and I had a bit of a chuckle about how good the timing was, and we moved on with repair. It could have very well been a very different story if it was a flammable refrigerant.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Smoke?
aircon gas released=smoke

???

[LandyAndy]

I had the same happen to me in a XE falcon,the oil in the system went on the extractors,lots of smoke,I thought it was on fire.
Andrew

[justinc]

Just found some more paperwork,, :D it seems mine is a "boosted" Wren,, 3.5kw's, designed by aircommand for trucks buses, road machinery etc, 12K btu's
Suck on that Ibis3!:p

Mmm. Our Ibis mk2 according to the owners manual apparently has 3.2kw cool and heat capacity.(11,000btu) .. ibis 3 is less?

Jc

[scarry]

Smoke?
aircon gas released=smoke

???

Oil mixed with the refrigerant would have caused the 'smoke',particularly if it was from the condenser,or the high side of the system as we call it.Nothing to worry about,apart from the oil covering everything it lands on,some types take paint off like brake fluid:(

I have seen a system that contained over 80kg of refrigerant blow the glass out of a sight glass,now that created some smoke,and noise.

And created another hole in the ozone layer...