Filters: OEM or Coopers

[mauricem]

Sorry if this has been asked and answered but the search didnt reveal any results.

Local landy service center is pushing coopers over OEM claiming they are the same part with a different label :? .

Price isnt much difference except for the fuel filter whch is +$17 for genuine. This is for a 300tdi.

Any thoughts guys?

[one_iota]

I always use Coopers filters (air, oil and fuel) or at least have done every service for the last 40,000km. No issues so far. I buy them from Graeme Coopers (no relation :wink: ) as he uses them for servicing Land Rovers.

[sclarke]

Are we talking about "Cooper" or "Coopers" filters....

There is a differance....

[abaddonxi]

Bought fuel filters recently.

Repco -
$75 for name brand, can't remember which.
$40 for Repco.

Karcraft -
$18

Bought the $40 'cos I wanted it that day, bought the $18 for next time.

At that kind of price difference I'd be buying four of the cheapies and change
'em when you get the urge.

Not like switching a fuel filter is hard work.

And I can't imagine that there is four times difference in quality between cheapie and name brand.

Even if you change it every 5000k instead of 10000k you're coming out on top.
Cheers
Simon

[one_iota]

Originally posted by sclarke
Are we talking about "Cooper" or "Coopers" filters....

There is a differance....

I'm talking Coopers:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2005/12/19.jpg

I also like to filter Coopers (sparkling ale that is) :wink:

[sclarke]

I was told the Cooper filters are good and Coopers are bad....

Best i confirm that rumor...

[sclarke]

Same debate....

http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread....ighlight=filter (http://www.discoweb.org/forums/showthread.php't=1030&highlight=filter)

[one_iota]

It is easy to confuse Cooper and Coopers.

Coopers is made by a British (Welsh) company

Cooper is part of the Australian Company GUD along with Ryco and Westfil. GUD will no longer be producing filters in Australia instead sourcing these from Asia. According to a spokesman from GUD the amount of workers compensation insurance premium paid for one Australian worker will pay wages for two workers in China.

[PhilipA]

Ryco source from Seth Effrika.
They have a wholly owned company there mainly to support the mining industry.
The quality is probably OK but I have gone to Purolator, who invented spin on filters and came out very well in a US test of efficiency.
Also their drain back valves seem better than OEM and Ryco. IE the oil light goes out immediately. They are also pretty cheap from Autobahn who can order them in.
Regards Philip A

[sclarke]

Well i use Genuine oil filters and air filters from Karcraft or Fred Smith.

[JamesH]

Originally posted by one_iota


I also like to filter Coopers (sparkling ale that is) :wink:

Too right. I AM a Coopers filter.

[Bushie]

Originally posted by sclarke
Well i use Genuine oil filters and air filters from Karcraft or Fred Smith.


Do we know who makes the genuine ('cause I doubt its Land Rover).


Bushie

[one_iota]

Originally posted by Bushie+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bushie)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-sclarke
Well i use Genuine oil filters and air filters from Karcraft or Fred Smith.


Do we know who makes the genuine ('cause I doubt its Land Rover).


Bushie[/b][/quote]

I suspect that LR has Coopers make them.

http://www.master-filtration.co.uk/coopers.htm

Made in the EU for the moment for what that is worth :roll: .

Often parts are made under licence by others to the vehicle manufacturer (OEM). The licence has a time limit after which the manufacturer of the part can sell the identical specified part under its own name/brand. So LR Filter = Coopers Filter without the LR mark up.

And the proof is:

If properly installed the Coopers filter does not leak oil therefore it is not made by Land Rover :wink:

[rick130]

The OE ERR 3340 filter is made by Delphi in the UK. (Delphi used to be part of GM, but was spun off several years ago. The US arm has since gone into bankruptcy.)
It has very interesting construction, using no endcaps as the cellulose pleats are glued together and dimpled to keep the spacing correct. The media is very thin.

Coopers is part of the Italian owned multinational conglomerate SOGEFI, as are Crosland, Fiaam, Fram (Europe) amongst other filter companies. (Fram US is owned by Honeywell)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I have gone to Purolator, who invented spin on filters and came out very well in a US test of efficiency. [/b][/quote]

I suspect quite strongly that the L25195 Purolater (which is the correct cross reference for the ERR3340, NOT their Z89A equivalent. Check out www.purolator.com's online catalogue, I have had it confirmed by Purolator engineers in the US ) is also a Delphi filter. It's specs are Beta 2=25, beta 20=40, media area of 312 sq. in. 14-16 psi by-pass. Its capacity is 9.52 grams. These are fairly average specs.

[one_iota]

Originally posted by rick130
The OE ERR 3340 filter is made by Delphi in the UK. (Delphi used to be part of GM, but was spun off several years ago. The US arm has since gone into bankruptcy.)
It has very interesting construction, using no endcaps as the cellulose pleats are glued together and dimpled to keep the spacing correct. The media is very thin.

Coopers is part of the Italian owned multinational conglomerate SOGEFI, as are Crosland, Fiaam, Fram (Europe) amongst other filter companies. (Fram US is owned by Honeywell)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'> I have gone to Purolator, who invented spin on filters and came out very well in a US test of efficiency.

I suspect quite strongly that the L25195 Purolater (which is the correct cross reference for the ERR3340, NOT their Z89A equivalent. Check out www.purolator.com's online catalogue, I have had it confirmed by Purolator engineers in the US ) is also a Delphi filter. It's specs are Beta 2=25, beta 20=40, media area of 312 sq. in. 14-16 psi by-pass. Its capacity is 9.52 grams. These are fairly average specs.[/b][/quote]

So can we assume that a Coopers filter (made by the SOGEFI conglomerate) changed at 5000km will do the job?

[rick130]

I've never even seen a Pommy Coopers filter, but if it is made to meet OE specs it would be fine. I've used a few Crosland filters over the years, and they have been well constructed when I've pulled them apart. (it is a sickness, and I am seeing someone for it..https://www.aulro.com/afvb/)
Most of the Poms on the other Land Rover boards I hang around swear by them, if that helps. :wink:

FWIW, I always refused to use Wesfil air filters as they used only half the paper of an equivalent Ryco cousin.

[one_iota]

Originally posted by rick130
I've never even seen a Pommy Coopers filter, but if it is made to meet OE specs it would be fine. I've used a few Crosland filters over the years, and they have been well constructed when I've pulled them apart. (it is a sickness, and I am seeing someone for it..https://www.aulro.com/afvb/)
Most of the Poms on the other Land Rover boards I hang around swear by them, if that helps. :wink:

I guess that is the issue..We trust in OEM https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

It's about comfort zones.

[Defender200Tdi]

Rick mate, you really should get out more y'know. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Paul https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[rick130]

hehe, I actually use a filter that blows away an OE spec one on all areas, (filters down to 1 micron, beta 2=7 which means it traps 50% of 7 micron particles in the relevant SAE multi-pass test, beta 75=22 or 98.67%, dirt holding capacity 38 grams, synthetic media = much greater service life, etc), but it is a marginal fit at best size wise, and so can't really recommend it.

[rick130]

Originally posted by Defender200Tdi
Rick mate, you really should get out more y'know. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Paul https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

or become an accountant https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[Defender200Tdi]

Originally posted by rick130+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rick130)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Defender200Tdi
Rick mate, you really should get out more y'know. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Paul https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

or become an accountant https://www.aulro.com/afvb/[/b][/quote]

touché :wink:

[one_iota]

Originally posted by rick130+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rick130)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-Defender200Tdi
Rick mate, you really should get out more y'know. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Paul https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

or become an accountant https://www.aulro.com/afvb/[/b][/quote]

Cruel https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

until it comes to income filtering :wink: https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[rick130]

Pauly has the last laugh, as he can bill out more per hour than I could dream about. :wink:

[one_iota]

Originally posted by rick130
Pauly has the last laugh, as he can bill out more per hour than I could dream about. :wink:

Another touche

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[CraigE]

I have used Coopers and Crosslands filters on all my Rovers and have had no problems. They actually seem to be better quality than the OEM units when disected. Apart from that they are a damn sight cheaper. Less than half price for oil and up to 2/3 les for air and fuel. Most LR dealerships are using them now and speaking to the shop mechanics reckon they are better quality and help keep servicing costs down.

[PhilipA]

I Know Rick and I have had this discussion before but the Purolater IS stamped "Made in USA". I recall Rick said before that he doubted that it was a USA produced filter. My assumption is that his implication was that if made in USA it was likely made by Purolater.
I accept that the filteriing may be average but I reckon that the anti drain back valve is important. My experience is that the OEM and Ryco are inconsistent. I HATE hearing the rattle of dry lifters, and reckon that a major amount a wear must be caused then.
Back to trainspotting then!! Is that a 1502 series with saddle tanks or a 1504.
Regards Philip A

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>Back to trainspotting then!! Is that a 1502 series with saddle tanks or a 1504. [/b][/quote]
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

what part # are you using Philip ?

Agree with your comment re ADBV's.
Purolator Pure Ones, which I don't think we can get here have a Silicone ADBV, as well as a greater amount of more efficient media compared to the Premium Plus.
Most nearly all US made Wix use a silicone ADBV as well.
They just tend to hold better, and they should have a better service life compared to the more usual nitrile ones.

[abaddonxi]

Well, how about this?

Just had a look at the box and the $18 filter from Karcraft is a Coopers.

So someone is making a packet off them.

Cheers
Simon

[PhilipA]

Rick , they are Purolator Premium Plus Number L14670.
They have a cross reference to L89 stickered on the box.
Hope they are good as I bought 6.
Regards Philip A

[4bee]

Originally posted by rick130
I've never even seen a Pommy Coopers filter, but if it is made to meet OE specs it would be fine. I've used a few Crosland filters over the years, and they have been well constructed when I've pulled them apart. (it is a sickness, and I am seeing someone for it..https://www.aulro.com/afvb/)



It's a friggie thing Rick, & the rest of the world wouldn't understand. :oops:

[seashells]

Mauricem

I have started using Cooper oil filters part no 1035 interchangable with Z418 filters ( suits gm or toyota ) for the TD5 these are a tad smaller than the LR filter, easier to get off and are changed every 5000km and are a lot cheaper to purchase.

Seashells.

[abaddonxi]

Been having a small think about this, since I've recently had a look at three fuel filters.

Seems to me that there are four parts to a fuel filter.

The metal bit that holds it all together - probably the most expensive bit to make.

The seal that stops the diesel from coming out the top - if it doesn't the filteris useless so it's going to work.

The drain-ey thing at the bottom - probably a good place to cut costs, does it snap off easily, does it have threads that will strip, does it have a hole at the bottom so you can drain rather than wear fuel.

The paper of the filter - the bit that actually does the work.

To my untrained eye, and I didn't crack the filters open, I just had a peek through the holes, all of the paper filters looked much of a muchness. Waffle paper, looked like there was an outer sandwich of paper with some kind of meat inside it.

The filters are all within x of being the same size, so there isn't likely to be more paper in there. I can imagine that there could be better paper in there, but fifty bucks worth?

Rick130, I'm sure you've cracked one open, is there any difference in the paper?











Ah, I've forgotten one bit, there's the painted logo on the outside.


That's got to be where the money is. My cheapies don't have any paint on them, paint costs a bomb. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Cheers
Simon

[rick130]

Well Simon, sad to admit that, yes, I have cut a few open... :oops:
'twas a long time ago, and I compared the Fleetguard that came with my rig to a Crosland that I replaced it with.
They were both very well built, with, IIRC, the approx same amount of media.
Of course I have no idea what spec media they both had, and this is where cutting filters open falls down big time. The media is the most important aspect of the whole deal, and is the one part that looking at it and even measuring its thickness tells you bugger all. You have to rely on the manufacturers data, and this isn't generally published, although most will provide the info if you ask nicely.

Diesel fuel filters should generally have a higher specification media to an oil filter. The tolerances inside the pump are pretty tight. I seem to have a figure of under 7 micron rating for the media bouncing around inside my head at the moment, although that could also be the Chardonay consumed last night..... :wink:

IMHO, diesel fuel filter quality is more important than an oil filter. The clearances are tighter for starters.
FWIW I've been using a Donaldson (made in Germany) for the Bosch filter head on the Tdi. My supplier stocks these at a good price, otherwise I would have bought a head adapter and fitted a Delphi/Lucas/CAV HDF-296 (5.5 micron rating) equivalent cartridge, as used on a lot of trucks and farm machinery (including my Fiat tractor, which has two)

I've seen a number of tests where people have substituted empty cans for oil filters on engines, ran them for tens of thousand of km. Done oil changes and had the oil analyised, and the contaminent levels were the same as when the full flow filter was in place.
It appears that real filtration only happens with by-pass type filters such as the centrifugal one on the Td5, or the big dunny roll ones you used to see on some of the big trucks.
Of course the new syntheic medias being used such as Donaldsons' Synteq are sort of turning this theory on its head as they are able to filter down almost by-pass filter levels while having better flow and better capacity than their cellulose counterparts, albeit at more cost per unit. eg. a Purolator Premium Plus L30001 costs me around $3, wheras a Donaldson P169071 Synteq media version costs around $26-27. Both are Z9 Ryco equivalent.

[jimbob]

Hi guys i know this an old thread but i am in the country and having trouble finding Coopers Filters locally. Does any any one have the part #s for all the Defender TD5 filters 2xoil/fuel/air? Also does any one know if any of the major part dist sell them? Any help would be appreciated. I am in Mildura. I can get them posted from Ritters But that seems like my only option.

Cheers Jim.