Turning left at Red Lights

[Fatso]

WA is going to trial a system of turning left at a red light if it is safe to do so to ease traffic congestion , (apparently this already been done somewhere over east) . Some drivers sadly are not capable of assessing what is safe or not so this should be an interesting experiment , I will bet at the first prang the excuse will be "i thought it was safe " .

I can probably see where this could be useful at certain periods of the day at certain intersections but not as a general rule , we have enough problems with dickheads on our roads as it is with out giving them licence to create further problems . IMHO .

[Ean Austral]

Been able to do it in Darwin since I have had my license - more than 30 yrs . Not at every set of lights , only the ones that are sign posted that you can.

Great idea and as safe as any other road rule that people abide by.

Cheers Ean

[bsperka]

Brisbane has had it for over a year. Supposed to stop; most people roll through. Doing it at first feels strange as going through a red light; still get people who will sit at lights til green. Speeds up traffic a lot though.

[ATH]

Good grief! Perth motorists have trouble understanding the necessity for stopping at red lights even and now they're going to confuse them even more with this experiment. They have trouble doing the simplest of things so this is just another bit of sheer lunacy by those that think they know best.
Maybe they should try being a pro driver for a while instead of seat polishing and they'd see the real problems on the roads.
AlanH.

[loneranger]

As a cyclist I think I'll avoid those intersections. It's bad enough when they have a give way sign and they pull out in front of you.

[CraigE]

Agree with ATH most Perth drivers run red lights at the best of times. They all seem to think the amber light on when you are 150 metres away means go faster. The amount of near misses I have had over the last 3 months with people running red when we are on green is ridiculous.
However I do get the principal. It can be just silly sitting at a red light at midnight or 4-30am waiting to turn with no other traffic visible.

[bee utey]

There is a single intersection in Adelaide that has had a sign to that effect for well over 20 years. Time poor people want more intersections likewise sign posted, accident aware people want none like that. Personally I'd like to see better timing of turn arrows in low traffic times and more slip lane construction, but that's probably a pipe dream. In any case, intersections like that need good monitoring so that any drivers who fail to stop first get hammered with a decent fine. A big sign saying a camera is watching your turn might help too.

[cuppabillytea]

I could write a book on intersections. People just don't get it. I'm told Toowoomba has Australia's worst drivers and as I haven't experienced any worse , I have to agree. Any change to the rules there could spell disaster.
You'd imagine that lights were put in the most dangerous intersections first so safe is a dubious concept to apply at the best of times.
Having said that there are a few signed intersections in Sydney where the system works well and I don't think Sydney drivers are really all that flash. There is a large minority who seam to be brain dead.

[bee utey]

It's not so much the stupidity as the care factor of drivers. At the bottom of our local freeway the 60 sign is ignored by 80% of drivers. Put a prominent bubble car in clear view of the yobs then compliance with the speed sign approaches 99%. Most people simply can't be bothered to concentrate on safe driving.

[Pocket Rocket]

IMO this is just teaching people that red lights are optional. And Alan is right Perth drivers don't have the capacity to understand basic concepts of stop and go let alone stop sometimes and go sometimes.

Just as well they stated this before the election!!!

[AK83]

.... Put a prominent bubble car in clear view of the yobs then compliance with the speed sign approaches 99%. Most people simply can't be bothered to concentrate on safe driving.

Here in Vic(Melb) we have our Ring road.
Not quite a proper Ring road(yet) as it doesn't so much ring around Melbourne, as it does more like a half arc.

They're upgrading the western side with extra lanes, and so 5 lanes merge into two at present.
(WAYY!!) Too many idiots use the emergency lane as their own personal express lane, and most of the time they get away with it, but on a few occasions now we've had quite idiotic ignorance of drivers casing accidents doing so, and one major incident leading to a fatality(where the poor guy was changing a flat tyre and a drugged out moron killed him at about 80k/h .. straight into the rear of the obviously stranded car in the emergency lane)

Anyhow, I was sitting in the left lane on this '5 lanes into 2 section', and just passed a cop booking one of those ignorant selfish yobs(we'll call that one moron #1) using the emergency lane as their express lane.
Maybe 5 mins later, cop obviously finalised making his few quid with moron number 1, when moron number 2 jumped into the emergency lane right behind me .. with the cop car just behind us both(in the emergency lane!)

There must have been at least 50-100m to the off ramp that every one is in a major hurry to get too(hence the use of the emergency lane) .. and of course 5 sec after moron number 2 jumped into the emergency lane .. cop unleashes the lights and horns and .. well there goes a few hundred dollars to the State Revenue Office(plus I think 3 demerit points off moron #2's license).

Sitting at this section of road can take up to 10 mins to get from one on ramp to the next off ramp, and it's about 2klms .. and you'd see at least a hundred of these morons using the emergency lane to save that -5-10mins.
"Everyone" knows this area is heavily policed, yet they still do so!

Time poor, they may well be .. but sense appears to be the major deficit for most!

[PhilipA]

Good Grief.
the Yanks have been doing this since time immemorial.
They of course turn right on red for all those nitpickers.
Surely if they can do it we can too.

Regards Philip A

[jx2mad]

In NSW there are some intersections with a sign saying "left turn on red after stopping" Seems to work well

[scarry]

In NSW there are some intersections with a sign saying "left turn on red after stopping" Seems to work well

Yes,same here, works well,anything to relieve some of the horrendous congestion on the roads here is a benefit.

They are talking about letting it happen at any intersection with or without out the "turn left on red after stopping" signage. Cant bring it in quick enough.

The trouble is many drivers,particularly the ones that drive only on weekends,are totally lost at any intersection where there is not a sign or traffic light telling them what to do.[bigsad]

[crash]

Good Grief.
the Yanks have been doing this since time immemorial.
They of course turn right on red for all those nitpickers.
Surely if they can do it we can too.

Regards Philip A
Yes it does work - turn right on red in North america.
They also have 4way stops - I really can not see that happening here.

I think Left hand turn on red is a good idea.

[ATH]

I reckon the so called "time poor" should get out of bed earlier. There were light controlled intersections here which had Give Way signs for those turning left but I notice that these have now been changed to being light controlled obviously because of the accident rate.
Those who've never been here cannot know the standard of driving here being so bad, even the cops aren't that flash as they consider the right hand lane to be theirs and will travel miles in it before chopping over into the left just prior to turning.
And that's just one example of their poor training so if they are that bad, there's not much hope for the population at large with no good example being set.
AlanH.

[weeds]

There is one near me......the side street is a small single lane and they turn onto a dual lane.....on two accassions I have been in the right hand lane and had cars turn into the left lane...scared the **** out of me as I didn't know it was a turn left anytime after stopping....

I tooted and flashed my lights thinking they may not have been concentrating.

After the second time I doubled back to see if the lights were working from the side street than noticed the sign (never driven down that side street).

I kinda feel bad for giving two ladies a bit of a hurry up thinking they ran a red light.

[LandyAndy]

Trying to get used to having traffic lights in town,I think the Shire will have to ban them like Albany did[bigsmile][bigsmile][bigsmile][bigsmile]
We have a portable set,no good anymore,went under water in the shire depot during the recent floods.
Can see pedestrians getting flattened at these turn left on red lights,not good for the aged and infirm.
Andrew

[bob10]

Been in Brisbane for a while. Still feels wrong when actually doing it. The sign says " when safe to do so". That interpretation seems to vary between drivers at times, but it seems to work.

[trog]

To me this is more "natural " than a round a bout. After many years I still feel out of place using them. Since the left on red has come into effect I find myself more at ease. Just hard pointing out to some that the sign says its so .

[ATH]

Always amazes me at the confusion caused by roundabouts here in WA and indeed across. Oz. Trouble is everyone thinks it's their God given right to push and shove with no consideration for other drivers.
Of course actually giving an indication of intentions is not on either as it's no else's business where they're going.... that was the attitude of a manager I had the misfortune to work under years ago!
I've always reckoned Britain and Europe would seize solid in a few days if Main Roads WA were in charge of road design. :-))
AlanH.

[CraigE]

Roundabout Rules WA. The only issue is some states can vary.
The main one is proceeding straight through. Most small roundabouts it is not feasible to indicate left after passing the last left exit, so is accepted you dont indicate if proceeding straight through. However people forget that on a larger roundabout you must signal. What I have found in WA is over 50% of drivers seem to think indicating full stop is optional.

Rules of RoundaboutsEach country and sometimes each state, has its own rules for using roundabouts. The following roundabout rules are for Western Australia.
The general rules applicable to all vehicles using a roundabout are that you must:


always keep left of the central island
always travel in a clockwise direction
give way to all vehicles who are already travelling within the roundabout
follow the direction of any painted lines on the road of the lane you are in

When turning left at a roundabout you must:


approach from the left lane
indicate that you are turning left before you reach the roundabout
stay in the left lane
exit in the left lane

When turning right or making a U turn at a roundabout you must:


approach from the right lane
indicate that you are turning right before you reach the roundabout
stay in the right lane
when you have past the last exit, before the one you want to get out at, indicate you are going to turn left

When driving straight through a roundabout you must:


use the left or right lane and stay in that same lane, unless road markings or signs tell you otherwise
indicate left, if you can, after you have passed the last exit before the one you want to get out at
you do not need to indicate when you are coming up to the roundabout if you are going straight ahead


Always amazes me at the confusion caused by roundabouts here in WA and indeed across. Oz. Trouble is everyone thinks it's their God given right to push and shove with no consideration for other drivers.
Of course actually giving an indication of intentions is not on either as it's no else's business where they're going.... that was the attitude of a manager I had the misfortune to work under years ago!
I've always reckoned Britain and Europe would seize solid in a few days if Main Roads WA were in charge of road design. :-))
AlanH.

[hodgo]

Over the years I have taught many to drive, both cars and trucks and when a learner driver faces a round about for the first time they do so with more fear than any other aspect of learning to drive regardless of how much theory has been given on the subject and this comes back to the ability of the driver trainer to be able to pass on knowledge which a lot of driving instructors do not have, You should never put a learner into a multi lane round about first up Qld. and other states require a learner to have a 100 hours before being able to obtain a licence, so friends or family has to be able to teach due to the $$$ factor I taught my two kids to drive and now I am teaching my grand children to drive and I have had their friends come to me and ask can I give them their last few hours before their test If I am able to do so the first thing I do is put them through a multi lane round about with five streets intersecting and is always full on, just watching the reaction the student tells me their level of driving and their confidence A good trainer should be able to install confidence which many can not, I feel that most driving schools are only teach the basics just enough to obtain a licence I could write a book on my driver training experiences.
Then we have the problem with the older generation that were driving before round about and freeways were ever used in this country ( mid 1950 ) they were not educated in the true scene of roundabouts or many other matters in every day diving eg. merging on to a freeway and I find them to be the worst of all, and I find a lot today are passing on their lack of knowledge to the younger I feel that the problems that have been talked about in the post above and others will never go away.
on the subject of round about rules Craig the rules in Qld are the same Can not say for sure about the other states but what you have posted is logical and what I teach.
Hodgo

[austastar]

Hi,
The key is "when safe to do so"
I interpret that as my action should not cause any one else to be concerned or need to take any action at all due to my actions.
It is the same as overtaking cyclists and crossing the center double line to do so. My action should not cause any other driver to react to my manoever.
Or have I got this totally wrong.
Cheers

[hodgo]

Hi,
The key is "when safe to do so"
I interpret that as my action should not cause any one else to be concerned or need to take any action at all due to my actions.
It is the same as overtaking cyclists and crossing the center double line to do so. My action should not cause any other driver to react to my manoever.
Or have I got this totally wrong.
Cheers

I dont feel you are wrong providing that what you have done knowing that its safe to do so, This my sound stupid to some but if I have to do some thing and another vehicle is or could be effected by my actions I try to signal my intentions and make eye contact with the other driver I saying this I always drive to the condition (which means when safe to do) and my ability.

[trog]

I figure if you always expect the unexpected , and not take the road , or track , for that matter, then an escape from a situation is possible . A driving instructor once told me treat the others as less competent and allow for their mistakes. So if you are a bit slower getting somewhere , at least you make it safely.

[jonesfam]

I always assume every other driver is drunk, drugged, incompetent, un-licensed, blind & an idiot!
I'm always thinking what do I do if they do something stupid?

So far this has worked well.

We all make mistakes, miss judgments so you have to be ready for that.

Jonesfam

[Redback]

In NSW there are some intersections with a sign saying "left turn on red after stopping" Seems to work well

Yep agree, seems to work well as far as I've noticed, it's a welcome relief here in the Sydney basin, unless you've driven in Sydney traffic, you have no idea what bad traffic is, those drivers from other states that have, usually don't complain about the traffic at home as much anymore:burnrubber:

[cuppabillytea]

I always assume every other driver is drunk, drugged, incompetent, un-licensed, blind & an idiot!
I'm always thinking what do I do if they do something stupid?

So far this has worked well.

We all make mistakes, miss judgments so you have to be ready for that.

Jonesfam

This assumption is the only assumption anyone should make.
This assumption should also be made driving rule NUMBER ONE!!!!!

[ATH]

Watching what the other idiot is up to is getting harder with blacked out windows which are never opened these days. Plus the shocking design of so many cars where the indicators are set deep within their plastic housing and can't be seen until the vehicle is coming head on at you.
That doesn't help plan your driving especially at roundabouts where many drivers are confused anyway.
AlanH.

[jx2mad]

You are right. Those feeble almost invisible indicator lights are pathetic. How they pass the ADR test is beyond me.

[scarry]

Watching what the other idiot is up to is getting harder with blacked out windows which are never opened these days. Plus the shocking design of so many cars where the indicators are set deep within their plastic housing and can't be seen until the vehicle is coming head on at you.
That doesn't help plan your driving especially at roundabouts where many drivers are confused anyway.
AlanH.

This is a massive issue.

I had a discussion with Mr Glover,motoring writer for numerous newspapers and mags about this,and he agreed something really needs to be done about it.

The issue is the rules relating to indicators haven't changed in at least 50 yrs.

But the roads have completely changed,as have vehicles.

How many roundabouts were around when the rules were conceived,probably none.

[Redback]

Roundabout Rules WA. The only issue is some states can vary.
The main one is proceeding straight through. Most small roundabouts it is not feasible to indicate left after passing the last left exit, so is accepted you dont indicate if proceeding straight through. However people forget that on a larger roundabout you must signal. What I have found in WA is over 50% of drivers seem to think indicating full stop is optional.

Rules of Roundabouts

Each country and sometimes each state, has its own rules for using roundabouts. The following roundabout rules are for Western Australia.
The general rules applicable to all vehicles using a roundabout are that you must:


always keep left of the central island
always travel in a clockwise direction
give way to all vehicles who are already travelling within the roundabout
follow the direction of any painted lines on the road of the lane you are in

When turning left at a roundabout you must:


approach from the left lane
indicate that you are turning left before you reach the roundabout
stay in the left lane
exit in the left lane

When turning right or making a U turn at a roundabout you must:


approach from the right lane
indicate that you are turning right before you reach the roundabout
stay in the right lane
when you have past the last exit, before the one you want to get out at, indicate you are going to turn left

When driving straight through a roundabout you must:


use the left or right lane and stay in that same lane, unless road markings or signs tell you otherwise
indicate left, if you can, after you have passed the last exit before the one you want to get out at
you do not need to indicate when you are coming up to the roundabout if you are going straight ahead



Same here in NSW, except for one difference in bold, they want you to indicate right when going straight through the roundabout, then indicate left as you exit:no2:

[kogvos]

Same here in NSW, except for one difference in bold, they want you to indicate right when going straight through the roundabout, then indicate left as you exit:no2:
That's not quite right for NSW. From the Road User's Handbook (page 95):

Going straight ahead: Do not signal when approaching the roundabout but always
signal left before exiting a roundabout.

[cuppabillytea]

You are right. Those feeble almost invisible indicator lights are pathetic. How they pass the ADR test is beyond me.

They pass because they are made by a licensed Automobile Manufacturer. If you were to replicate the same thing on your own build, you would be stone walled by the authorities. You're right. It's feeble ridiculous and bloody disgusting.


Same here in NSW, except for one difference in bold, they want you to indicate right when going straight through the roundabout, then indicate left as you exit:no2: Yes, this is also ridiculous.
Oh... Sorry Baz. I killed a massive Redback yesterday. I had no Insecticide so I torched it with a WD40 fire ball. I had to it was about to spawn a plague.

[cuppabillytea]

That's not quite right for NSW. From the Road User's Handbook (page 95):

Going straight ahead: Do not signal when approaching the roundabout but always
signal left before exiting a roundabout.

That's a roundabout way of doing things too. [bigwhistle]

[kogvos]

That's a roundabout way of doing things too. [bigwhistle]
I like roundabouts. I just don't like the blatant disregard for their rules! But having a Defender can sometimes be a useful "persuader". [emoji6]

[cuppabillytea]

I'm with you on that one oh Voice Of Sanity.

[CraigE]

Yeah NSW is different with most stuff in some way.[bigwhistle]
What is BS is you learn to drive in the state you live and can be pinged in another state for doing the wrong thing. Way past time for national road rules, but not letting NSW have any input would be a good start.[bigrolf]
The main reason the rule about going straight through on roundabouts and not indicating in WA is WA only has a handful of roundabouts big enough for you to have time to indicate. Only 3 of I know about within 100kms of us.
That aside the logic makes sense with basic logic. Based on a 4 entrance / exit roundabout only of course
indicate left for turning left exit 1.
Dont indicate going straight through, but if a large enough roundabout indicate left when exiting exit 2.
Indicate Right to exit 2 then if exiting exit 3 indicate left once passed exit 2.
Same as for exit 3 for exit 4 or if more exits.


Same here in NSW, except for one difference in bold, they want you to indicate right when going straight through the roundabout, then indicate left as you exit:no2:

[trog]

The conclusion to these tales of round a bouts and indicators seems simple. One eliminate the round abouts and replace with 90 degree junctions , that allow left turns when safe. Two mandate indicators that can be seen from multi angles. Until then the argue Nets will continue to go round and round depending on which states regulations are quoted

[Redback]

That's not quite right for NSW. From the Road User's Handbook (page 95):

Going straight ahead: Do not signal when approaching the roundabout but always
signal left before exiting a roundabout.

They must have changed it, I know they were lobbying for this rule to be changed, that's good news finally some common sense, some people I notice from time to time still do it.

[Pocket Rocket]

I saw someone turn left on a red light this morning. The light to go straight was green. The arrow to turn left was red. It was clear so they went anyway.

[ATH]

Hi PR. It was probably red to turn left as some loony pedestrian had pressed the cross button and then walked anyway. Runners/joggers are notorious for doing this. Thoughtless mindless actions done purely to annoy motorists.....
AlanH.

[loneranger]

Thoughtless mindless actions done purely to annoy motorists..... AlanH.

Some motorists think that anything that holds them up is done to annoy them. [tonguewink]

[cuppabillytea]

Some motorists think that anything that holds them up is done to annoy them. [tonguewink]
Yes. That's me. I don't believe there are any idiots on the road., Just malignant teasing bastards. :bat:

[loneranger]

Yes. That's me. I don't believe there are any idiots on the road., Just malignant teasing bastards. :bat:

Do you drive a Beamer or Merc? [bigsmile]

[cuppabillytea]

Do you drive a Beamer or Merc? [bigsmile]

:lol2::lol2::lol2: Anything with a loud Horn.

[ATH]

Pressing the "cross" button on lights used to be a fun thing for young Sunday Times paper sellers in Perth on a Saturday. They did it of course to try and boost sales but boy did it annoy us cab drivers cruising looking for jobs. [bawl] Nothing like sitting there waiting for the lights to change and getting round the corner and another cab that crossed the front of you is picking up someone you could have had in the cab!
I'll give most pedestrians the benefit of the doubt but I reckon most of the jogging lot do it deliberately....... [bigsad]
AlanH.

[trog]

Yep , it is a great conspiracy against the motorist , but the Donald has plans for them too!

[V8Ian]

Do you drive a Beamer or Merc? [bigsmile]

Or the ultimate.......
120402

[cuppabillytea]

Or the ultimate.......
120402
You've hit the nail on the head with that one Ian.
They are my latest pet hate. Passive aggressive, non sharing, incompetent or, in many cases, incorrigible Hoons.

[V8Ian]

You've hit the nail on the head with that one Ian.
They are my latest pet hate. Passive aggressive, non sharing, incompetent or, in many cases, incorrigible Hoons.
Yep, both ends of the bell curve. Between Lismore and Bangalow there are a couple of decent hills that I need a good run at, I can guarantee some gormless **** will be struggling to maintain the heady velocity of half the speed limit, in a Subaru, just before the climbs. :bat::2up:
The most useless drivers in the country reside in NE NSW, draw a line NW from Ballina to the border and you've captured them.

[PerthDisco]

Good Grief.
the Yanks have been doing this since time immemorial.
They of course turn right on red for all those nitpickers.
Surely if they can do it we can too.

Regards Philip A

I agree. It's brilliant over in the USA and I've always wondered why we did not in WA. More infuriating if other states have it. Because you are not crossing traffic it is inherently safe. It drives me nuts how we need to do a 7 year study into such things before even a trial.

[trog]

Trumpland is not the only place it is legal.

[cuppabillytea]

I agree. It's brilliant over in the USA and I've always wondered why we did not in WA. More infuriating if other states have it. Because you are not crossing traffic it is inherently safe. It drives me nuts how we need to do a 7 year study into such things before even a trial.
Yep. I have to agree that the drivers in the USA are better than us. I just can't understand why they are twice as likely to die on the road.:unsure:

[V8Ian]

Yep. I have to agree that the drivers in the USA are better than us. I just can't understand why they are twice as likely to die on the road.:unsure:
Probably something to do with their odd seatbelt laws, in some states.

[cuppabillytea]

Probably something to do with their odd seatbelt laws, in some states.

Yes. I didn't think of that one. They do love to die for their rights, but I admire that in a way.

[V8Ian]

Yes. I didn't think of that one. They do love to die for their rights, but I admire that in a way.
Or it could be the second amendment and road rage. [bigwhistle]

[cuppabillytea]

Or it could be the second amendment and road rage. [bigwhistle]

No. My theory was, that they were such good polite drivers, because every second one of them has a gun.

[trog]

Could it be insurance rates based upon claims and anfringements , or are drivers in other parts of the world less selfish towards others including pedestrians and cyclists?

[Pocket Rocket]

Election result has put an end to this thankfully!!!

[ATH]

It may have put an end to this particular loony idea Shorty, but the Libs didn't hold the patents for sheer stupidity as the Liebour lots past records show. Standby for more idiotic ideas to ease traffic congestion.
Stay home, stay safe. [smilebigeye]
AlanH.

[trog]

Ease congestion , hmmm more people vehicles etc in the same space. Can't see things improving somehow.

[loneranger]

Ease congestion , hmmm more people vehicles etc in the same space. Can't see things improving somehow.
Build more cycling infrastructure. For the first time in a long time I went out for a ride yesterday morning. There were more cyclists on the freeway path than cars on the freeway.