Towing Weights

[LandyAndy]

I realise its all been done before,time again.
I'm off to the caravan show next week to narrow down my wants,wont be buying just yet.
What are all the proper numbers for the D4???
GVM,GCM,TARE,Towbar limitetc etc etc.

Next question,its well known caravan builders lie about their weights.It seems once you fill the water tanks/dirty water tanks the van is just about at its limits.Many vans only advertise around 400kg between tare and gross.
Some manufacturers say thay can increase the van GCM,so I guess this means buying a 2700kg limit van and upgrading to 3500kg suspension to get some sort of carrying cabability.
Only using that as an example,need to get everything clear in my empty head before listening to a salesman.The van I liked most last year was in the 3000kg area so some room for the vans GVM to be increased.
I fully realise that any touring D4 is already close to its GVM when travelling.I don't ubderstand the point made in the past that the trailer hitch weight is worked out differently due to the air suspension.An understanding of this would really help.
CHEERS
Andrew

[Tombie]

350kg on the ball - 3500kg on the back..

But... the less you pull along the better it is so try and keep it sane!!!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

After lots of shows,, I wouldnt say what you're towing with,,

it WILL NOT make any difference to the van,, it WILL to most SALESMEN,,

you know more about your D4 than he ever will,,,

and in the end,, anything you buy from the show,, all the weights are already set,,

ask to borrow one to tow over the scales,, see what response you get,, :)

[LandyAndy]

I was looking at that van I linked in the caravan area Pedro.There were an older couple also looking at it,they loved it.The salesman asked what their tow vehicle was,they had a playdoh,he told them they needed a Landcruiser.I asked about a D4,he sain no issues.Told the pair they were welcome to have a drive of my D4[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

350kg on the ball - 3500kg on the back..

But... the less you pull along the better it is so try and keep it sane!!!

I was aware of those numbers Mike,just wanting confirmation thanks.
NOW,the D4 GCM.Im sure its you who has offered lots of advice,if the van has 350kg its 350kg off the D4s weight??? Same goes for 200 or 250kg.
I did see a van with 100kg towbar weight,to me that would be a nightmare to tow,correct????I realise strategic loading would change this,obviously aimed at lesser tow tugs.
Trying to get it all thru my THICK empty head!!!!
Andrew

[Tombie]

Nope. The D4 can do a full three fitty [emoji6] it's one of the few that can...

Ball weight like ATM is subject to manufacturer.. almost all of them are incorrect and there was a survey / test done - most came in at 6%.

Once laden this can radically change - easily to well over or under..

If you want somethjng seriously offroad - I will tag you in one a good mate is selling.

[LandyAndy]

You can link if you want Mike.
I'm not after a full blown off-road machine.
I do want a "rough road" van that can handle badly corrugated roads I haven't graded[wink11][wink11][wink11][wink11][wink11][wink11][wink11] plus easy/medium tracks.
Andrew

[Tombie]

Messenger link sent

[Pedro_The_Swift]

maybe we should have a "350kg object" just so people actually have some idea what 350kg is,, [bigwhistle]

[RoverLander]

I realise its all been done before,time again.
I'm off to the caravan show next week to narrow down my wants,wont be buying just yet.
What are all the proper numbers for the D4???
GVM,GCM,TARE,Towbar limitetc etc etc.


Andrew

Towbar limit is a 350kg ball weight.
maximum trailer weight is 3500kg
GCM is the total combined mass of the car and the trailer. The D4 has the second highest GCM rating of normal production vehicles (excluding big USA pickups and trucks) and is just below the Landcruiser. I think its 6500kg (it is in the manual) It is this number that gets the dual cab utes in trouble as they are typically around 5,800kg.
TARE is the empty weight of the vehicle (caravan for example)
GVM is the maximum weight of the vehicle when loaded to capacity. this cant exceed 3500 for the D4
Payload is the difference between GVM and Tare. This includes water gas etc. so if you have 300 litres of water in your van then that is 300kg of your payload gone. A van should have at least 500kg of payload in my opinion and depending on water tank capacity.

The other limits to know is the axle loads of the D4. The D4 rear axle max load is 1824kg if i recall correctly (this is in the manual). It is very easy to exceed this when a close to 350kg van is attached. Basically the rear of the car can only contain a few heavy items.

Hope this helps.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

"so if you have 300 litres of water in your van then that is 300kg off your payload gone."

agree.

I think--
If your van builder designs 300L of water to be carried onboard,, than all that must be included in the vans Tare,

[Tombie]

No worse than people demanding "tonnes of cupboard space" when the reality is 200kg of stuff and you're done...

[LandyAndy]

You guys hit the nail on the head with the water and cupboards.
Hence my question,if its a 3000kg van,whats involved it specing it to 3500kg to cover carrying gear????
Need to know before I hear a salesmans answer to my same question!!!!
Andrew

[Pedro_The_Swift]

You will have to buy it first!!

seriously,,

[LandyAndy]

If I get that sort of reply I will be very rude and loud!!!!
Not going to spend 80 to 100K and find I'm not very legal.
Andrew

[Tombie]

Whilst several here do it.. towing at Maximum all the time is similar to revving to red-line all the time.. you can do it; but the wear is worse.

Personally something Composite and lighter with a reasonable payload is much better than a **** and Glitter machine...

[Tombie]

You will have to buy it first!!

seriously,,

Yep. And then off to see the engineer with a cheque book in hand..

[PeterJ]

Hi Andrew, a few reflections having been through the process.

Look at the chassis spec plate, it will tell you where you are in the spectrum and what wriggle room you have. My van was originally plated at 3100kg ATM, the chassis is 3500, a simple paper work exercise (in SA) to get it re-rated to 3400. Not that I am up at that level, try very hard to keep it sub 3200 but it gives me some head room JIC, and 3200 is way more than I wanted to be at before the buying process started, but there you go.
Perhaps caravan manufacturers use a random number generator a far as van tare is concerned, put it on a weigh bridge BEFORE you sign the check, put it in the contract as a purchase condition because the common practice is for manufacturers to add 400kg to tare for a dual axle van to come up with ATM, then when you fill the 2 x 95 L water tanks it eats up nearly half the allowance, fill the gas bottles, a stuby of light, fat free snag for the low carb bread, pair of jocks and you are knocking on the door :bangin: well, you know what I mean. So, if they fudge the tare you are going to have troubles. I actually noticed at the recent Adelaide van show some of the manufactures were plating the vans based on chassis capacity, so that's a step in the right direction except I worry that for many people that will become the new "target", not a good concept.

Keeping the mass down is the hardest thing ever, and it is very easy to end up a lot heavier than you might want, I certainly did, but that does not necessarily translate into being illegally overloaded, some quick definitions for you.

Compliance Plate Data example
Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) = 3300 kg for example
[ ATM is the total laden weight of a trailer which includes the tow ball mass and whatever is added as payload. This includes water, gas food ect. the ATM is specified by the trailer manufacturer and must not be exceeded]
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) = 3100 kg
[GTM is the total permissible mass which includes payload (water, gas food) that can be supported by the wheels of the trailer. This does not include the mass supported by the tow ball]
Tare Mass = 2900 kg and is the unladen mass of the trailer.
Tow ball mass = ATM - GTM
TBM = 3300 - 3100 = 200 kg.
Gross Combination Mass (GCM) is the rating provided by the manufacturer of the tow vehicle. The maximum laden mass of the tow vehicle plus the maximum laden mass of an attached trailer must not exceed the GCM rating, for the D4 it is 6740kg.

Hence, you need to put the car on the weigh bridge in the configuration that you intend travelling with and do the numbers.

Enjoy......................Peter

[LandyAndy]

Whilst several here do it.. towing at Maximum all the time is similar to revving to red-line all the time.. you can do it; but the wear is worse.

Personally something Composite and lighter with a reasonable payload is much better than a **** and Glitter machine...

This is what Deb and I both liked the most at last years show.Kitchen up the front and out the way,plenty of room with the large slide out.Was bright and breezy wich we realy liked.
50th Anniversary Avida Topaz Caravan Review - Avida RV (https://www.avidarv.com.au/news-videos/rv-reviews/905-50th-anniversary-avida-topaz-caravan-review)
Andrew

[Tombie]

If I get that sort of reply I will be very rude and loud!!!!
Not going to spend 80 to 100K and find I'm not very legal.
Andrew

Bullbar, big Engel, luggage, fishing gear etc...

Tug is Likely borderline when loaded anyway... [emoji41]

Add on a van: water, food, clothes, your BDSM gear, pots, pans, grog, gadgets, couple of outdoor chairs, bedding and linen...

Then find a weigh bridge... [emoji48][emoji463]

[Pedro_The_Swift]

cant help myself,,

Pics of the Van Pete ? ;)

[LandyAndy]

Hi Andrew, a few reflections having been through the process.

Look at the chassis spec plate, it will tell you where you are in the spectrum and what wriggle room you have. My van was originally plated at 3100kg ATM, the chassis is 3500, a simple paper work exercise (in SA) to get it re-rated to 3400. Not that I am up at that level, try very hard to keep it sub 3200 but it gives me some head room JIC, and 3200 is way more than I wanted to be at before the buying process started, but there you go.
Perhaps caravan manufacturers use a random number generator a far as van tare is concerned, put it on a weigh bridge BEFORE you sign the check, put it in the contract as a purchase condition because the common practice is for manufacturers to add 400kg to tare for a dual axle van to come up with ATM, then when you fill the 2 x 95 L water tanks it eats up nearly half the allowance, fill the gas bottles, a stuby of light, fat free snag for the low carb bread, pair of jocks and you are knocking on the door :bangin: well, you know what I mean. So, if they fudge the tare you are going to have troubles. I actually noticed at the recent Adelaide van show some of the manufactures were plating the vans based on chassis capacity, so that's a step in the right direction except I worry that for many people that will become the new "target", not a good concept.

Keeping the mass down is the hardest thing ever, and it is very easy to end up a lot heavier than you might want, I certainly did, but that does not necessarily translate into being illegally overloaded, some quick definitions for you.

Compliance Plate Data example
Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) = 3300 kg for example
[ ATM is the total laden weight of a trailer which includes the tow ball mass and whatever is added as payload. This includes water, gas food ect. the ATM is specified by the trailer manufacturer and must not be exceeded]
Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) = 3100 kg
[GTM is the total permissible mass which includes payload (water, gas food) that can be supported by the wheels of the trailer. This does not include the mass supported by the tow ball]
Tare Mass = 2900 kg and is the unladen mass of the trailer.
Tow ball mass = ATM - GTM
TBM = 3300 - 3100 = 200 kg.
Gross Combination Mass (GCM) is the rating provided by the manufacturer of the tow vehicle. The maximum laden mass of the tow vehicle plus the maximum laden mass of an attached trailer must not exceed the GCM rating, for the D4 it is 6740kg.

Hence, you need to put the car on the weigh bridge in the configuration that you intend travelling with and do the numbers.

Enjoy......................Peter

Thanks Peter.
You appreciate where I'm coming from.
The van builders need to be more honest,they put it back on the buyer by saying"depending on buyers options" in the websites.They should know what every combination weighs.
Hence this thread,I want to get all my info in my head correct before locking horns.
Thanks
Andrew

[PeterJ]

120622

Sorry, can not get it bigger or right way up, any suggestions would be very appreciated.

[Tombie]

This is what Deb and I both liked the most at last years show.Kitchen up the front and out the way,plenty of room with the large slide out.Was bright and breezy wich we realy liked.
50th Anniversary Avida Topaz Caravan Review - Avida RV (https://www.avidarv.com.au/news-videos/rv-reviews/905-50th-anniversary-avida-topaz-caravan-review)
Andrew

Nice looking van...

Although I See what it is about these modern vans I dislike..

Bloody Porcelain basin in bathroom.. Solid wood or heavy bench tops etc...

Really does need to be an overhaul of the Aussie Van scene and laws. Especially as they are becoming more prolific on the roads - increasing the odds of incidents.

As an example. The UK vans are much larger, and much (try circa 1t) lighter with ball weights of 100-180kg.. only we insist on towing weights heavier than the tow vehicle (generally not the best idea).


Best of luck with your search Andy...

[Dudela]

Andy,

Have fun at the show. From the manual below.



Vehicle weight 2558kg
GVW 3240kg The maximum permissible weight of the vehicle including passengers and load.
GTW 6740kg The maximum permissible weight of the vehicle and braked trailer including their respective loads.
FITTING THE DETACHABLE DRAWBAR RECEIVER (Australia only), the nose weight can be increased to 350 kg (772 lb) if the GVW is reduced by 200 kg (441 lb).

e.g. Vehicle payload 682kg reduce to 482kg with 350kg ball weight.


Max rear axle load 1855kg

Note: When calculating rear axle loading remember that the trailer's nose weight, the load in the vehicle's loadspace area, weight on the roof rack, and the weight of rear seat passengers must all be added together.



I am not sure how you calculate the rear axle load before adding the weights described above.

I would recommend at least 600kg for payload. Best done as part of the purchase so you know the axle class rating does not limit the load. If you end up buying new ensure it gets weighed (only some manufacturers weigh each van), I would expect a salesman would be willing to agree to provide a weighbridge cert with Tare Mass, and the empty Ball-Loading that as part of the sale. There have been some buyers that have weighed the vans after purchase and found that they are a lot heavier than stated on the plate.

Our van is 2750 Tare and 3350 ATM. The stated ball weight is 220kg and is usually around the 300-320kg when loaded. The axle group capacity is 3200kg.

Cheers
Craig

[PeterJ]

Yes I do Andrew, I think the sales pitch is a real worry, you certainly do need to have some clear sets of numbers sorted out as far as the mass of your car, the van and the combination. Also, you will inevitably modify the van, this usually involves adding mass, so leave as much safety margin as you can at the start of the process.
Try to not let the whole thing stress you out, it's actually a fun time,and I think the prep work is the key.

Peter

[PAT303]

Nice looking van...

Although I See what it is about these modern vans I dislike..

Bloody Porcelain basin in bathroom.. Solid wood or heavy bench tops etc...

Really does need to be an overhaul of the Aussie Van scene and laws. Especially as they are becoming more prolific on the roads - increasing the odds of incidents.

As an example. The UK vans are much larger, and much (try circa 1t) lighter with ball weights of 100-180kg.. only we insist on towing weights heavier than the tow vehicle (generally not the best idea).


Best of luck with your search Andy...

Maybe we need to invite your mate Collyn over here [bigwhistle]. Pat

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Isnt this more about KG than V ?

[Redback]

120622

Sorry, can not get it bigger or right way up, any suggestions would be very appreciated.

Here ya go

[Tombie]

Maybe we need to invite your mate Collyn over here [bigwhistle]. Pat

Bwahahaha. He's certainly not my mate!

[PeterJ]

Here ya go


Thanks Baz, looks so much better the right way up, how did you do that?

[DiscoJeffster]

Thanks Baz, looks so much better the right way up, how did you do that?

Drove it to the northern hemisphere for the photo.

[Fatso]

350Kg on tow bar is = to 17.5 Jerry Cans of water thats scary . There was a very good enlightening read in Practical Motoring about the 3500kg towing weights and diiferent vehicle caperbility might make you rethink these sort of weights , dont know how to put the link here but google (caravan towing weights) and look for "Why 3500kg tow rating may not realy be a...... " . Interesting .

[weeds]

Just hook the bastard up and head off......

As other have mentioned.....you cannot trust the figures given to you by the manufacturer. Pretty sure the manufacturer doesn't have to weight each unit as it comes off the production line as the local authorities trust them.

Try getting it written into the contract that it comes with a weigh bridge ticket with water tanks full, gas full, waste tanks full etc at time of handover and get them to weight the towball weight in front of you at handover.

Other than that than it up to you how vigilant you are once you start packing and adding things.

[dirvine]

Just hook the bastard up and head off......

I wouldn't want to do that so much in Victoria anymore. Police set up a road block near Cann River and with Vic Roads and did full tests recently. While no one was charged, the stats of people over the limit was of some concern.

Having just bought a small "off road" van, its is necessary to make sure you are within limits. My single axle van in off road guise is 2400kg TARE. Actual Tare when empty except for gas bottles was 2460kg. Add 300ltr of water, plus two gerry cans of fuel, plus 2 full gas bottles, extra solar panels, outside chairs, table, a few tools, etc, etc, and the 500 limit is soon reached. I did a weigh after I purchased at the weigh bridge on Hume Highway, and then once loaded up for a basic week away type trip. I was shocked, that even not fully stocked, I was only only 25kgs below the MAX of 2900kg! I did not do a ball weight but given one water tank is in the middle and the other is forward, I tried to keep inside the van rear loaded and the front draw bar storage box was loaded up with heavy tools and other bits and bobs to keep things more balanced.

You can weigh you van at the truck weigh bridges if they are open. Some I understand charge you a fee. I was lucky they were not busy and it cost nothing. It did however give me some idea of what I could do.

[Redback]

Thanks Baz, looks so much better the right way up, how did you do that?

Saved it to my computer, rotated it with picture manager and loaded it back into the post via manage attachments, when you post, scroll down to attachment, you can upload a photo into your post.

[Russrobe]

Check out Bruder Expedition Andy, takes it to an entirely new level.

$10k above your budget though.... Unfortunately, I won't be able to afford one for a while...

BruderX | Australian made globally driven (http://bruderx.com/)

The chassis is capable of holding 11 times its own weight and comes standard with a Warn winch system and recovery points. Using rolled and tubed materials our chassis is also stronger than typical square box section designs and is completely air tight so no mud, sand, salt or dirt can get inside.

[LandyAndy]

Hi Russ.
I will be looking,but it wont work for me,even if that blonde came with it.
I have big issues getting out of a bed with my back injury,the main reason I'm not perservering with my camper trailer.If I cant roll my legs easily to stand up my sciatic nerve gets trapped.That invokes a cramp that can last from a few minutes to 15 mins,its not nice.
Then again if that blonde did come with it who would need to get out of bed[smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye]
Andrew

[Russrobe]

Hi Russ.
I will be looking,but it wont work for me,even if that blonde came with it.
I have big issues getting out of a bed with my back injury,the main reason I'm not perservering with my camper trailer.If I cant roll my legs easily to stand up my sciatic nerve gets trapped.That invokes a cramp that can last from a few minutes to 15 mins,its not nice.
Then again if that blonde did come with it who would need to get out of bed[smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye][smilebigeye]
Andrew

Damn Andy, that sucks. Guessing you need a walk around bed then?

Atleast the 300mm of air suspension height adjustment would make it east to get inside=D

[LandyAndy]

Yes Russ.
I can get into the camper trailer bed easy,getting down via the ladder is bad news.It could be fixed with some sort of platform to carry in the trailer.
Andrew

[PAT303]

Check out Bruder Expedition Andy, takes it to an entirely new level.

$10k above your budget though.... Unfortunately, I won't be able to afford one for a while...

BruderX | Australian made globally driven (http://bruderx.com/)

The chassis is capable of holding 11 times its own weight and comes standard with a Warn winch system and recovery points. Using rolled and tubed materials our chassis is also stronger than typical square box section designs and is completely air tight so no mud, sand, salt or dirt can get inside.

That is without doubt the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

[weeds]

That is without doubt the stupidest thing I have ever seen.

Apart from lacking windows I think they have brought something a bit different into the market.

[Russrobe]

Lol Pat, any reason for it being stupid?

[LandyAndy]

I quite like it,especially the air suspension.
For me the bed setup kills it due to my back issues,also the ventilation,not a fan of aircon unless its in a vehicle or machine I'm operating.We have aircon at home,rarely use it,prefer a breeze or ceiling fan.
Andrew

[Pedro_The_Swift]

its funny,, it has an air con,, but its built to stay anywhere but next to a power point,,
and Andy, with those side windows open and poptop windows open, it will have as much airflow as any other van,,

anyone know how many zero's on the price?

[Russrobe]

its funny,, it has an air con,, but its built to stay anywhere but next to a power point,,
and Andy, with those side windows open and poptop windows open, it will have as much airflow as any other van,,

anyone know how many zero's on the price?
$110k i believe Pedro. Unfortunately looks like that suspension and the lightweight materials come at a cost...

Comes with genie to run aircon atleast =)

[ATH]

I'd be going for something under 18' with single axle and independent suspension and good ground clearance personally. That way you can get into places the owners of the behemoth type vans with all mod cons can't, but they do look good stuck in caravan parks.
We do go into v/parks occasionally to do a really good clean up and I love to see the owners of some of the real upmarket vans (normally covered in checker plate) talking to their admiring fan club of the "quality that jumps out at you" or some such rubbish. Just don't look under that pretty skin matey. [bigsmile]
Do a good search among repairers websites for the real story on some of the stuff on our roads and read the posts about van retailers attitudes to warranty work. I've posted a few myself about a certain yard in WA and been threatened with legal action..... especially about my spare wheel cover which wasn't nice to them. [biggrin] But as I have it all documented about consumer affairs and small claims court action they can't really start being too clever as they may get hurt a bit more.
But a decent van (ours is not bad now it's all sorted) can make a difference to life travelling especially when it's pouring hard. Nothing nicer than straight out of the car into a dry van and having a good cuppa.
Bugger mucking about with canvas and poles etc.
And treat all the salespersons say with a large pinch of salt..... just like you would car yard shysters.
Enjoy the fun.
AlanH.

[PAT303]

Lol Pat, any reason for it being stupid?

Lets look at this rationally.You have a 3000kg 4wd with a 3000kg ''offroad'' van on the back,the whole lot wieghts more than a truck and is physically bigger than a school bus so honestly where ''offroad'' are you going to go?.I also don't see the point in offroad vans made from cold rolled steel or 6'' chassis beams when the tow vehicle is made from 0.9 folded sheet metal [bighmmm].I often wonder what people actually do that need this type of van,do people fight ISIS while travelling from van park to van park sitting on 80 to save fuel[biggrin]?. Pat

[Russrobe]

Lets look at this rationally.You have a 3000kg 4wd with a 3000kg ''offroad'' van on the back,the whole lot wieghts more than a truck and is physically bigger than a school bus so honestly where ''offroad'' are you going to go?.I also don't see the point in offroad vans made from cold rolled steel or 6'' chassis beams when the tow vehicle is made from 0.9 folded sheet metal [bighmmm].I often wonder what people actually do that need this type of van,do people fight ISIS while travelling from van park to van park sitting on 80 to save fuel[biggrin]?. Pat
Pat it weighs 1.6T that's the whole idea of it being made from different materials and what splits it apart from the 3000kg vans...


Agree with everything you say though, which is why i like this one.

[Milton477]

I also built my van out of a German composite material & with hindsight, I could have made the chassis much lighter as the shell of the van has so much inherent strength on its own. For anyone wondering, the composite is called Monopan & is a type of plastic I can be plastic welded using a hot air gun & plastic welding rod. The walls of my van are 35mm thick & are made only of composite with no supporting frame.

[PAT303]

Pat it weighs 1.6T that's the whole idea of it being made from different materials and what splits it apart from the 3000kg vans...


Agree with everything you say though, which is why i like this one.

The tare wieght is 2300kg. Pat

[LandyAndy]

The price is from $106K!!!!
Andrew

[DiscoMick]

I get shocked at the size and weight of some vans. Even if they're legal, I don't see how they can be safe.

[scarry]

The price is from $106K!!!!
Andrew

I saw one on the Ipswich motorway around 6 months ago.

From a distance i thought it was some kind of military thing.

It was being towed by a ...........wait for it......................D4[bigwhistle]

[justinc]

Andy ours was certified and weigh bridge ticketed on the day of handover at 2520kg tare. 215kg ball weight. How anyone can be happy with 350kg on the ball is beyond me. All our water tanks are behind the rearmost wheels and with full gas bottles and clothing, food (NO BDSM gear Tombie😋) and 200l water we are around 2.9 to 3t. I have the 3700kg upgrade cruisemaster ind suspension and LT tyres and the stability behind the rangie is fantastic.

[LandyAndy]

What make/size is it Justin???
Cheers
Andrew

[justinc]

Was custom made for us by JB caravans in Victoria 3 years ago. 21'6" dirt roader. I actually had the full offroad chassis as a base, and a galv floor sheet put down before the construction to ensure no moisture ingress. 360W of Solar panels, 3 100Ah batteries and european quality electronics/ controllers. 1800W inverter/ smart charger, 225l waeco compressor fridge freezer, DO35 hitch etc etc. ( don't listen to that idiot in that article you linked to on the Avida van, the DO35 is one of the easiest offroad hitches I've ever used!!) We plan on living in it one day so had to be self sufficient. I'll have to msg you some pics as i can't seem to get them off my ph to the computer etc clearly.

[justinc]

Are you on FB messenger?

[LandyAndy]

Thanks Justin.
I want one that's a live in too.It doesn't need to be full on off-road,just capable of being towed down rough roads.
Wouldn't mind ending up semi retired getting grader steerer jobs as I looked around Awestralia.
Andrew

[LandyAndy]

Are you on FB messenger?

Yes.
Andrew

[justinc]

Thanks Justin.
I want one that's a live in too.It doesn't need to be full on off-road,just capable of being towed down rough roads.
Wouldn't mind ending up semi retired getting grader steerer jobs as I looked around Awestralia.
Andrew

My comment to the designer/ builder was Gibb river rd, Kimberleys and NT outback cannot be off limits for us.😄

[veebs]

Following with interest...

Has anybody figured out what the 'empty' weights on the D4 axles are? I would assume the car is front heavy when empty, so guessing at 55:45 split of the 2583kg kerb weight means:

Front has 1421, Rear has 1162

If we assume 200kg of payload is distributed front to rear (eg passengers) we come up to 1521/1262 (note, we're now exceeding the front axle limit)

Putting the balance of the 657 payload into the back, we get 1521/1719. There is an argument to be made that weight added behind the rear wheel would present a weight saving on the front axle (by way of a lever of course), but I've ignored that for now.

If I go back and set the kerb weight to be split 50:50, we get 1391.5 / 1848.5 when 200kg distributed and 457kg in the boot (or on the towball). All within limits, but the 50:50 ratio strikes me as somewhat unlikely?

[Redback]

Following with interest...

Has anybody figured out what the 'empty' weights on the D4 axles are? I would assume the car is front heavy when empty, so guessing at 55:45 split of the 2583kg kerb weight means:

Front has 1421, Rear has 1162

If we assume 200kg of payload is distributed front to rear (eg passengers) we come up to 1521/1262 (note, we're now exceeding the front axle limit)

Putting the balance of the 657 payload into the back, we get 1521/1719. There is an argument to be made that weight added behind the rear wheel would present a weight saving on the front axle (by way of a lever of course), but I've ignored that for now.

If I go back and set the kerb weight to be split 50:50, we get 1391.5 / 1848.5 when 200kg distributed and 457kg in the boot (or on the towball). All within limits, but the 50:50 ratio strikes me as somewhat unlikely?

From LR

Maximum mass on each axle (front) 1,450kg


Maximum mass on each axle (rear) 1,855kg

For all models.

[BobD]

Mine is definitely heavier at the rear when empty but then it already has half its payload in add on goodies, such as Kaymar rear bar and LR fuel tank.

[veebs]

From LR

Maximum mass on each axle (front) 1,450kg


Maximum mass on each axle (rear) 1,855kg

For all models.


Yep, these are the same maximums I was referring to :)

My point is, without knowing the empty axle weights, it's difficult to know how to distribute the weight in the car correctly, and avoid exceeding these figures.
That said, when LR says 'on each axle' (front) does it mean 1,450kg on each of the independent wheels, or as a total across both front wheels? (the latter makes more sense to me)

[mr_squiggle]

Yep, these are the same maximums I was referring to :)

My point is, without knowing the empty axle weights, it's difficult to know how to distribute the weight in the car correctly, and avoid exceeding these figures.
That said, when LR says 'on each axle' (front) does it mean 1,450kg on each of the independent wheels, or as a total across both front wheels? (the latter makes more sense to me)

LR means 1450kg as a total across the front, hence the axle reference from the old days when an axle went all the way across.
Your point about not knowing the empty axle weights is a bit pointless unless you measure your actual vehicle since you may have all manner of extras added like bullbars, roof racks etc.
If you are going to weigh it I'd suggest a full tank of fuel, roughly what you cart around every day & the normal amount of passengers. That way you have a baseline to work from.
I weighed mine last Thursday with both main & second tanks full, the wife in the passenger seat, spare wheel on a carrier on the back, nothing else in the vehicle & 340kg on the ball (deliberately) with a 25ft van on the back. Front axle was 1180kg (270kg under) & the rear was 1760kg (125kg under). Overall vehicle on its own weighed 3000kg (240kg under nominated GVM).
I'll be doing a few more weighs as I experiment with the ball loading and van load layout.

[veebs]

Thanks Squiggle, fair point re needing to measure the specific vehicle - mine is as good as 'stock' so hadn't really considered the extras other people may have. Your results re weights do point out my assumption of these cars being front heavy is way off!

[PRS]

Without dimensions and applying the maths I would suggest 340kG on the ball would contribute to a reduction of about 130kG less on front axle.
This 130kG off the front is added to the 340kG on the ball, equating to extra 470kG added to the rear axle. [bigsad]
The above is based on approximations of 1200mm rear axle to ball, 2900mm rear axle to front axle.
Paul

[mr_squiggle]

Without dimensions and applying the maths I would suggest 340kG on the ball would contribute to a reduction of about 130kG less on front axle.
This 130kG off the front is added to the 340kG on the ball, equating to extra 470kG added to the rear axle. [bigsad]
The above is based on approximations of 1200mm rear axle to ball, 2900mm rear axle to front axle.
Paul

That's an interesting observation Paul. I deliberately loaded the ball weight up to see what affect it had on the rear axle weight given the second tank (LRA 104 litre) & swing away rear wheel carrier (Front Runner).
I'll add the rear & front axle weights for the vehicle only to my next lot of checks. It'll be interesting to see what the results are.

[BobD]

LR means 1450kg as a total across the front, hence the axle reference from the old days when an axle went all the way across.
Your point about not knowing the empty axle weights is a bit pointless unless you measure your actual vehicle since you may have all manner of extras added like bullbars, roof racks etc.
If you are going to weigh it I'd suggest a full tank of fuel, roughly what you cart around every day & the normal amount of passengers. That way you have a baseline to work from.
I weighed mine last Thursday with both main & second tanks full, the wife in the passenger seat, spare wheel on a carrier on the back, nothing else in the vehicle & 340kg on the ball (deliberately) with a 25ft van on the back. Front axle was 1180kg (270kg under) & the rear was 1760kg (125kg under). Overall vehicle on its own weighed 3000kg (240kg under nominated GVM).
I'll be doing a few more weighs as I experiment with the ball loading and van load layout.

The sum of the axle loads with 350 kg added is 2940 which is less than the 3000 kg you said the vehicle on its own weighs. Something wrong if that is what you meant or is vehicle alone including the 350 kg ball weight? Even then it weighs more than the sum of the axles.

Mine weighed 2740 with no people and about half a tank of fuel so I don't see how yours can be so light with 350 kg added and full tanks with your wife inside.

[mr_squiggle]

The sum of the axle loads with 350 kg added is 2940 which is less than the 3000 kg you said the vehicle on its own weighs. Something wrong if that is what you meant or is vehicle alone including the 350 kg ball weight? Even then it weighs more than the sum of the axles.

Mine weighed 2740 with no people and about half a tank of fuel so I don't see how yours can be so light with 350 kg added and full tanks with your wife inside.

Some of the weights are calculated & some were directly measured in a weighbridge, so I expected some measurement & rounding errors. Weighbridges like to have an even load & I put the front axle on one end only. Granted, a proper set of axle scales would be the most accurate but I was checking car & van GCM, van ATM etc. I'm happy for an error of ~60kg on 2940kg, it's a shade over 2%.
Here's what was weighed & in what order:
Front axle
Disco & van (hitched)
Rear axle & van (hitched)
Van only (hitched)
Van unhitched
Old mate on the bridge recorded the results & did the calcs.
The vehicle weighed 3000kg on its own (calculated from Disco & van minus van (unhitched)). I've seen it on a couple of dump weighbridges with an empty light box trailer at about 3.2t so it makes sense.
Is that a bit clearer?

[LandyAndy]

We used to have free accses to the town CBH weighbridge.It was always left on and there is a "peephole" in the shed to see the scales readout.Before my Xmas trip I rocked up to check my weights with the camper trailer packed ready to go.It was off[bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad]
Andrew

[mr_squiggle]

We used to have free accses to the town CBH weighbridge.It was always left on and there is a "peephole" in the shed to see the scales readout.Before my Xmas trip I rocked up to check my weights with the camper trailer packed ready to go.It was off[bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad]
Andrew

Good luck to you if you can get it for free. That little lot above cost $45. Still worth the money though.

[LandyAndy]

Pretty sure we can use the new CBH facilities just out of town for free,problem is you have to line up with the roadtrains carting grain in or out.Its a busy place,the main recieval point for 200km radius,theyre not receiving at the moment but just as busy carting out to port/customers.
Andrew

[BobD]

Some of the weights are calculated & some were directly measured in a weighbridge, so I expected some measurement & rounding errors. Weighbridges like to have an even load & I put the front axle on one end only. Granted, a proper set of axle scales would be the most accurate but I was checking car & van GCM, van ATM etc. I'm happy for an error of ~60kg on 2940kg, it's a shade over 2%.
Here's what was weighed & in what order:
Front axle
Disco & van (hitched)
Rear axle & van (hitched)
Van only (hitched)
Van unhitched
Old mate on the bridge recorded the results & did the calcs.
The vehicle weighed 3000kg on its own (calculated from Disco & van minus van (unhitched)). I've seen it on a couple of dump weighbridges with an empty light box trailer at about 3.2t so it makes sense.
Is that a bit clearer?

So, the car weighs 2940kg with 340kg draw bar load included and 3000kg with no drawer bar load, assuming the front axle was weighed with the caravan attached (which you didn't specify). If the front axle was weighed with the van unhitched it will be reduced by a hundred kg or more with the van hitched, which makes the discrepancy even greater than the 400kg above. Do you see the problem? At best the car should weigh 3340kg with a 340kg draw bar load added to the unhitched weight of 3000kg.

I think the 3000kg includes the trailer tow bar weight and is not the weight of the car alone. Otherwise your car is way over weight if the 340kg draw bar load is added to the unhitched car weight.

My point was not that the 3000kg is too light but that the sum of the axles is way too light if the 3000kg does not include the draw bar weight.

[mr_squiggle]

So, the car weighs 2940kg with 340kg draw bar load included and 3000kg with no drawer bar load, assuming the front axle was weighed with the caravan attached (which you didn't specify). If the front axle was weighed with the van unhitched it will be reduced by a hundred kg or more with the van hitched, which makes the discrepancy even greater than the 400kg above. Do you see the problem? At best the car should weigh 3340kg with a 340kg draw bar load added to the unhitched weight of 3000kg.

I think the 3000kg includes the trailer tow bar weight and is not the weight of the car alone. Otherwise your car is way over weight if the 340kg draw bar load is added to the unhitched car weight.

My point was not that the 3000kg is too light but that the sum of the axles is way too light if the 3000kg does not include the draw bar weight.

I hear what you are saying, but maybe I didn't explain it well. We're miles off topic here so if you want more info send me a PM.

[LandyAndy]

Narrowed the field down today.
A slide is now on the must have list,the vans are much roomier.
Avida comes up as a favorite again.They are in the sub 3000kg area with 500kg to spare.After Avida,Coromal Princetown was next,although I didn't like its independent leaf spring suspension.There wasn't a spare salesperson at that time to see if there is a coil alternative.Got a brochure to read later.
Had a discussion with another salesman about weights.He had a 2850kg off-road style van that barely had 400kg spare,fill the water up 200kg spare.I asked if I could order the same van with a 3500kg GCM after he told me it had 3500kg suspension.NOPE,but they can supply the paperwork to get it engineered to 3500kg.Asked why they don't sell a 3500kg version,nobody would buy one as there aren't many vehicles that can tow a 3500kg van.I walked!!!!
Andrew

[Fatso]

I think the salesman might be more right than not , when you take any vehicle,s GCM into consideration i am not sure if there is anything that really can tow 3500Kg with any sort of a load .

[Tombie]

In the grand scheme there's about 4 (excluding F trucks and the like)..

LC, Disco, Defender and some Patrols.

Not a single DC ute can be at 3,500kg and be useable.

[Redback]

I think the salesman might be right than not , when you take any vehicle,s GCM into consideration i am not sure if there is anything that really can tow 3500Kg with any sort of a load .

Very true, but if you have a D4(or Cruiser) they will be the best, as you can load them both to their max GVM and still tow 3500kg legally.

[Fatso]

In the grand scheme there's about 4 (excluding F trucks and the like)..

LC, Disco, Defender and some Patrols.

Not a single DC ute can be at 3,500kg and be useable.

And dont the DC ute adds flog the 3500Kg towing capacity , wonder how many believe they can load up a DC to the max and pull a 3500kg van .

[weeds]

And dont the DC ute adds flog the 3500Kg towing capacity , wonder how many believe they can load up a DC to the max and pull a 3500kg van .

Plenty do...but unfortunately are not educated.

When we load up my Toyota DC with family of five to go camping for a week....we exceed GVM....with taking into account tow ball weight...

we than hook up the camper trailer and head off

[Fatso]

Plenty do...but unfortunately are not educated.

When we load up my Toyota DC with family of five to go camping for a week....we exceed GVM....with taking into account tow ball weight...

we than hook up the camper trailer and head off


But you are probably still under GCM when towing a camper trailer !! .

[mr_squiggle]

So, the car weighs 2940kg with 340kg draw bar load included and 3000kg with no drawer bar load, assuming the front axle was weighed with the caravan attached (which you didn't specify). If the front axle was weighed with the van unhitched it will be reduced by a hundred kg or more with the van hitched, which makes the discrepancy even greater than the 400kg above. Do you see the problem? At best the car should weigh 3340kg with a 340kg draw bar load added to the unhitched weight of 3000kg.

I think the 3000kg includes the trailer tow bar weight and is not the weight of the car alone. Otherwise your car is way over weight if the 340kg draw bar load is added to the unhitched car weight.

My point was not that the 3000kg is too light but that the sum of the axles is way too light if the 3000kg does not include the draw bar weight.

BobD your message folder is full. You'll need to empty it if you want to receive any PMs.

[weeds]

But you are probably still under GCM when towing a camper trailer !! .

Yes......

[haydent]

Following with interest...

Has anybody figured out what the 'empty' weights on the D4 axles are? I would assume the car is front heavy when empty, so guessing at 55:45 split of the 2583kg kerb weight means:

Front has 1421, Rear has 1162

If we assume 200kg of payload is distributed front to rear (eg passengers) we come up to 1521/1262 (note, we're now exceeding the front axle limit)

Putting the balance of the 657 payload into the back, we get 1521/1719. There is an argument to be made that weight added behind the rear wheel would present a weight saving on the front axle (by way of a lever of course), but I've ignored that for now.

If I go back and set the kerb weight to be split 50:50, we get 1391.5 / 1848.5 when 200kg distributed and 457kg in the boot (or on the towball). All within limits, but the 50:50 ratio strikes me as somewhat unlikely?

id really like to find someones measured rear axle weight on a stock d4 5 seater with full tank

re some earlier comments regarding the often touted 350kg ball weight capacity, and 3.5 towing, this can be missleading, and there's no way a landrover is carrying 350 or even 300 ball weight without going over the rear axle limit.

something to keep in mind also is that if you have 3.5T Trailer/caravan, youll find the actual weight limit of the van axles is less, for my van its 3305kg , so at max capacity you could only have a ball weight of 195kg to be able to stay under the max total limit of 3.5T,

this is a ball weight percentage close to 5% which is well under LR limits of 7% , so to get that (which im ok with but many will try and argue you need 10% which is almost impossible for a 3.5t van) you would want to drop your max van axle weight by 50-100kg and add about 50kg to the ball