Disco 4 2016 - ran out of fuel 3 times

[bln]

When I purchased the D4 in 2016 I had an auxiliary fuel tank fitted. It pumps fuel across to the main tank by a pump which needs to be manually switch on. When switched on the fuel is pumped into the filler tube of the main tank so theoretically is completely independent of the main tank.
We had travelled to Cape Yorke and then to Arnhem Land so we had plenty of kms up and all was working well.
Coming home 350ks north of Alice Springs the car just stopped - doing 100km/hr towing our van the motor just stopped with a message "engine fault". We could not start the the car again. The fuel tank showed 1/4 full and we had a full auxiliary tank.
Land Rover Assist were brilliant and got our D4 and camper to Sutton Landrover Motors - alice springs. Neil at Suttons is fantastic and knows landies inside out. Next day he got the car going again and said that there was no fuel in the lines so he purged the air from the lines and got the car mobilised again. Thought that I may have picked up some dirty fuel so he replaced the fuel filter.

Ran out of fuel again near the Flinders Ranges - this time i purged the fuel lines on the side of the road and got the car going again - exactly the same thing - tank gauge 1/4 full and plenty of fuel in the auxiliary.

Got it back to Adelaide and took it for warranty repairs - all they did was replaced the fuel filter again. After my protests insisting that the problem is much more than a filter I left dissatisfied. Same scenario happened again.
Took the car back for warranty and this time they said that they found a fault with the fuel sensor - after 7 days in their workshop they pulled the tank out and replaced the sensor - still not fixed. They tested the car and the fuel gauge was going up and down irregularly - they our now saying that they think it could be the auxiliary tank. They will isolate the auxiliary tank and see if there is still a problem.

Any ideas.

Thanks in advance

[BobD]

Why don't you pump fuel from the aux tank to keep it above quarter full while you are having this problem? Not much point having fuel in the aux and not in the main tank.

[Eevo]

i guess the question is, was the main tank actually empty or 1/4 full?

the air in the lines, is that the line between the main tank and the engine? or the line from the aux to the main tank?

[LandyAndy]

With the pump type long range tanks there is the chance that the splash back can return to the spare tank on transfer.Surely you are getting an empty gauge on the main tank????
Andrew

[bln]

At the moment i have been keeping the tank over 1/4 full so that it doesn't happened again but for future trips I need to be able to use the last 1/4 of fuel.
Main tank still had fuel in it - no low fuel warning light.
Air was in the lines between the main tank and engine. Error diagnostics showed low fuel pressure warning.
In the main tank there are two chambers (baffles) and a small "jet" pump that pumps the fuel from one side to the other when the tank is getting low - so it could possibly be this pump that is faulty.

[Eevo]

sounds like it has nothing to do with the aux tank.

[LandyAndy]

I think so.
I doubt the long range tank has anything to do with your issue.
May have a similar issue in our Ford Territory.Last drive the 80km to empty warning came up.Drove 30km home.Next start it idled for 3 mins and stalled.Gauge reads between E and 1/4,40km to empty on the computer.20lts of fuel fixed it.
Andrew

[Tombie]

How much fuel did it have in the main tank?
How many Kms did you do before it shut down?

There are 2 fuel level sensors in the factory tank...

And your Aux can do NOTHING to impact the Primary tank.. tell Michael and his team not to mess with something that can not impact fuel flow or levels in the main tank...

[bln]

How much fuel did it have in the main tank?
How many Kms did you do before it shut down?

There are 2 fuel level sensors in the factory tank...

And your Aux can do NOTHING to impact the Primary tank.. tell Michael and his team not to mess with something that can not impact fuel flow or levels in the main tank...

Im not sure on both of your questions. The first time it occurred Sutton motors added about 20litres of fuel and unfortunately I didn't take note of how much fuel I put in when I topped the tank up.
I think I had done around 600km on the main tank when it occurred. I've attached a photo of the instrument panel when I stopped the second time. Unfortunately I had already tried to restart the car again.
120842

[BobD]

600 km towing a caravan at 100 kph, there won't be much fuel in the tank! Mine would be on empty with zero km to go well before that.

Even if you get 12 l/100km, which would be incredible towing a van, you would have used 72l and the tank would be reading empty with a some fuel in reserve. With more like 15 or 16 l/100km you would be completely empty. Sounds like the gauge is faulty to me. I always try to keep my main tank pretty full and regularly pump out of the aux tank.

[Redback]

600 km towing a caravan at 100 kph, there won't be much fuel in the tank! Mine would be on empty with zero km to go well before that.

Even if you get 12 l/100km, which would be incredible towing a van, you would have used 72l and the tank would be reading empty with a some fuel in reserve. With more like 15 or 16 l/100km you would be completely empty. Sounds like the gauge is faulty to me. I always try to keep my main tank pretty full and regularly pump out of the aux tank.

I concur with this, sounds like you have a faulty gauge to me also, if the Ks to empty reads 0 and the gauge still reads 1/3, there's something wrong somewhere.

I'd be driving via the Ks to empty part of the gauge until it's fixed.

If I owned the car, I'd be going for a drive to Port Lincoln to speak with Peter at Lincoln Land Rover next time you feel the need for a weekend away, good excuse to going fishing:ohyes:

[bln]

Thanks everyone - all good thoughts. I'll tackle land rover again today. They replaced the fuel sensor and the problem is worse with a fluctuating gauge - I suspect that they have not installed the fuel sensor correctly or the wiring loom is not plugged in correctly. A trip to port Lincoln sounds good.
Cheers and thanks
Bruce

[Tombie]

As I said there's 2 level sensors in the tank.. [emoji41]

And for the record - I live 2 1/2 hours from LLR and I won't go there!

[bln]

Thanks Tombie - its been 9 days at "**LR" now and still not fixed. Everyday is a new day so I'll wait and see what happens today - i'll patiently reserve my judgement at this stage. I spoke to them yesterday and convinced them (hopefully) that the faulty gauge has nothing to do with the auxiliary tank which is completely independent of the main tank and that they are just wasting their time.
From my limited understanding the only LR dealers in SA that can do warranty repairs are Solitaire, Mt Gambier and Pt Lincoln - do you know if thats correct?

Cheers

[tallents]

My D4 stopped one day & had to call Land Rover Assist, what I had noticed since fitting the aux tank was every time I took the fuel cap off to fill it there was a significant vacuum release. Anyhow on the day the D4 stopped & would not start the LRA mechanic advised he thought it was a fuel supply problem, he then removed the fuel bleed cap & pushed the schroeder valve & low & behold it released fuel & air indicating it was out of fuel, the fuel gauge however was reading quarter full. At this point I did some figures on fuel economy & they were very impressive, I then went to the fuel filler & removed the cap, the usual extreme vacuum release occurred & the fuel gauge fell to empty!!!!.
I then pumped fuel from the aux tank & after some turning over it started & ran as normal, I think its a venting problem, I have since cleaned the fuel cap vent but havn't done any long trips since the problem occurred, I'm also going to check the tank vent lines to see if there is a problem (if it still vacuums), anyhow I hope this helps, pm me to discuss further & I'll give my mobile number.

[AndrewM]

I do not have an auxiliary tank, but one of the fuel level sensors in my MY16 was faulty and replaced last November. The gauge would dutifully drop until 1/2 tank level and then stop and it was only by watching the km traveled that I knew when to refill. There is no way I was doing 623km on 1/2 a tank and with 378km left at 9.1 l/100km - 1,001km on one tank would be nice! There must be one sensor to do the upper 1/2 of the tank and a second to do the lower 1/2.

Andrew

[Tombie]

Not quite.

The tank is a long tank running parallel to the DS of the vehicle.

The sensors are located fore and aft

[Tombie]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/03/138.jpg

[bln]

Just spoke to Michael at Solitaire and I'm very happy with his diagnostic approach and willingness to get this sorted out and they are keeping in touch with me regularly - I can't ask for anymore than that and the problem is a tricky one. They have the main tank out again and running diagnostics with the tank out but still connected. At the moment they are leaning towards a software issue which is very hard to track down. Normally when the tank is filled the car is stopped with the engine off and when the car is started the "auto trip" computer resets. What may be happening is that the computer gets confused when the fuel is pumped directly from the auxiliary tank while the car is running. After their tank test they are going to do a battery reset (ctrl Alt Del) and then run the main tank down to empty without pumping any fuel across from the auxiliary - see what happens.
They don't think its a venting problem at this stage.
Interestingly another D4 MY16 with an auxillary tank has just been delivered to LR on a tray bed with exactly the same problem. Apparently the software is different for the MY16's which would explain why possibly other D4's don't have this issue.
Cheers

[GregMilner]

Crikey, I don't like the tone of this thread. I'm just about to have a gravity fed extra tank fitted to my MY16. Will be following the outcome of your issues closely...

[Tombie]

Hopefully it will be sorted soon..

[BobD]

Crikey, I don't like the tone of this thread. I'm just about to have a gravity fed extra tank fitted to my MY16. Will be following the outcome of your issues closely...

Greg,

Start by letting your tank run down below a quarter full so you know that the gauge is working OK before you fit the tank. I seriously doubt that what the dealer is saying about the software will be correct but who knows? My experience has been that when they don't know what is wrong they say it is a software issue and when the recommended software upgrade doesn't fix it they manage to find the real problem.

I personally wouldn't want a gravity fed tank unless it could be isolated, preferably from the drivers seat. It is nice and convenient but doesn't give you two separate sources of fuel (in case of leaks) and doesn't allow the fuel level in either tank to be accurately measured. I have a pumped system and keep on losing fuel when I forget to turn it off, so that is not the full answer either. However, at least I have a fuel gauge on each tank to monitor how everything is going.

[LandyAndy]

I'm sure it would be easy to fit some sort of solenoid valve to the hose on a gravity feed tank,would be my choice of setup.
Andrew

[BobD]

I'm sure it would be easy to fit some sort of solenoid valve to the hose on a gravity feed tank,would be my choice of setup.
Andrew
Yeah, I think you're right Andy. That way you could have a fuel gauge on the aux tank and only transfer fuel when you want to, the way you do with a pumped system. Provided the tank was isolated the car fuel gauge would also read correctly. I think the main difference is that you probably can't empty the aux into the main unless the main is low on fuel so you end up having to have them both connected for a lot of the time so you can't tell much about what the real level of fuel is at probably the most important stage of fuel use, when you are getting low.

[GregMilner]

Sounds like an idea. I'll ask Opposite Lock about it when they fit the tank in a couple of weeks.

[LandyAndy]

Let me know how you go Greg.
If I don't fit a LRT myself I would be getting OL at Bunbuy to do it.
Andrew

[BobD]

Sounds like an idea. I'll ask Opposite Lock about it when they fit the tank in a couple of weeks.

It can certainly be done but is probably not normal. On my GQ Patrol there was a two way solenoid and a switched fuel gauge. When you switched to the rear tank the car fuel gauge would read the level of the rear tank and the fuel would be drawn from the rear tank. The same thing with the front tank. Only one fuel gauge and one switch swapped everything over between the two tanks. It would be easy in comparison to just put an electrically controlled valve in the pipe as we are talking about. The fuel gauge on the rear tank would be a bit more difficult.

[GregMilner]

Well I'll give it a go and let you know Andrew. It's worth a try, although it might be something for Auto Spark rather than OL.

[BMKal]

As someone who has been running an Outback Accessories gravity flow long range tank without problems for about 5 years now, I really can't see why you'd bother trying to fit a solenoid valve between the tanks, or a fuel gauge to the aux tank. Yes - a gauge would be nice to have sometimes, but seriously, you very quickly get used to running without it - and you have a pretty good idea of how much fuel you have on board / what range you have.

The gravity feed system and lack of a second fuel gauge has never given me even the slightest concern. [wink11]

[LandyAndy]

That's 2 more gadgets you could add Brian.Sub fuel gage a sub fuel tap open/closed.
GO GO Gadget!!!
Andrew

[bln]

Well I got my Disco back today and I'm pretty sure Michael (Service Manager at Solitaire) has solved the problem. They found that the the top of the fuel tank had caved-in due to too much negative pressure causing a vacuum. Most probably caused by the filler cap supplied by the auxillary tank manufacturer. They fixed the tank by putting in compressed air and it popped out like a brand new tank. The caved in tank was most likely the cause of the faulty gauge reading as well as a computer glitch not detecting a "full tank" when it should have. On long trips I would pump the fuel from the auxillary tank to the main tank without stopping so the vacuum in the tank would just get greater and greater.
Michael supplied a Defender fuel cap which breathes a lot better than the after market one (at long last I have at least got a bit of a defender). He has also contacted the auxillary tank manufacturer who were very happy that he contacted them - they are going to investigate.
I am very impressed with Solitaire - they went the extra distance and did not charge me plus they loaned me a new Discovery Sport for the period (so smoooth to drive). Phoned me up every day to let me know what was going on.Great service.
Thank you to the forum members for their input and to Solitaire.
Some photos of the tank attached:120941120942120943

[101RRS]

That is great news but does beg the question - why hasn't every other Disco that has had this tank fitted had the same issue? A bad batch of filler caps maybe?

Anyway I hope it all works out.

Garry

[Tombie]

With the Long Ranger tank you use the factory cap....

[bln]

With the Long Ranger tank you use the factory cap....
Hi Tombie - not with my "Long Ranger Automotive tank" - they used an after market cap. Also phone call with LRA confirmed that they dont use the factory cap - they are looking into it. Maybe they used to previously.
Cheers

[AndyG]

Hi Tombie - not with my "Long Ranger Automotive tank" - they used an after market cap. Also phone call with LRA confirmed that they dont use the factory cap - they are looking into it. Maybe they used to previously.
Cheers
Good to see my standard Defender cap addressed the issue up front, [emoji4] 60 years of refinement [emoji12]

I concur with this, sounds like you have a faulty gauge to me also, if the Ks to empty reads 0 and the gauge still reads 1/3, there's something wrong somewhere.

I'd be driving via the Ks to empty part of the gauge until it's fixed.

If I owned the car, I'd be going for a drive to Port Lincoln to speak with Peter at Lincoln Land Rover next time you feel the need for a weekend away, good excuse to going fishing:ohyes:


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/03/138.jpg

[jonesy63]

Good to see my standard Defender cap addressed the issue up front, [emoji4] 60 years of refinement [emoji12]

Exactly - Defenders are the best at air leaks! [biggrin]

[AndyG]

Exactly - Defenders are the best at air leaks! [biggrin]
Have it covered air dust water rocks fuel oil [emoji4]

[LandyAndy]

Well I got my Disco back today and I'm pretty sure Michael (Service Manager at Solitaire) has solved the problem. They found that the the top of the fuel tank had caved-in due to too much negative pressure causing a vacuum. Most probably caused by the filler cap supplied by the auxillary tank manufacturer. They fixed the tank by putting in compressed air and it popped out like a brand new tank. The caved in tank was most likely the cause of the faulty gauge reading as well as a computer glitch not detecting a "full tank" when it should have. On long trips I would pump the fuel from the auxillary tank to the main tank without stopping so the vacuum in the tank would just get greater and greater.
Michael supplied a Defender fuel cap which breathes a lot better than the after market one (at long last I have at least got a bit of a defender). He has also contacted the auxillary tank manufacturer who were very happy that he contacted them - they are going to investigate.
I am very impressed with Solitaire - they went the extra distance and did not charge me plus they loaned me a new Discovery Sport for the period (so smoooth to drive). Phoned me up every day to let me know what was going on.Great service.
Thank you to the forum members for their input and to Solitaire.
Some photos of the tank attached:120941120942120943

That tank would have been sucking in on the bottom during driving.Hence the gauge reading 1/4 full but being empty.
Hopefully all sorted now.
Andrew

[DiscoMick]

Hope it's all solved. My Long Ranger tank uses the standard Defender cap.