Traxide vs. Redarc

[BrianElloy]

hi guys

now before anyone mentions the search function, yes - I searched and couldn't find an answer!

Here's my question - I'm thinking about an aux battery in my '11 D4v8. Everyone here seems to have the Traxide kit but I was speaking to an auto-electrician in Osborne Park last friday - he does all of Barbagallo's work including repairs and customisations / driving-lights / etc. for customer cars. He had a '17 TTDv8 sport and a '16 vogue in the shop where he was fitting both spotlights and aux batteries.

He said not to touch the traxide as they 'leach from the main battery, dropping voltage to 12.1V'.

is this true, and if so, is it a problem?

he said he's had to 'undo' many Traxide installations and replace them with Redarc units.

seemed to know his stuff - keen to get everyone's comments.

cheers

Brian

[austastar]

Hi,
Leech is rather a provocative word to use, yes it does allow the two batteries to stay connected for a while, so you have access to some of the power from the starter battery.
There is enough left to start though.
There is a small current drawer on the starter battery to run the Traxide unit, as I suspect would be the case with other devices.
But there is a parasitic draw from security devices and computers in most modern vehicles that will draw down the battery over a period of some weeks.
Cheers

[drivesafe]

Hi Brian and thanks for the post.


First off, from what you have posted, I get the impression your auto electrician is happy to use any lie he thinks he can get away with, to con people into thinking he is an expert when he is nothing more than a dishonest salesman, and definitely no expert.


My isolators are sold with a 5 year no questions asked warranty, and if anybody had had a problem with my gear, I think they would have contacted me, especially before having to pay some crook to “UNDO” one of my systems and then pay for something else.


In the last 12 years I have supplied over 4,000 systems, worldwide for D3s and D4s and in that time, I have only had two occasions where my isolators were replaced with something else. One of these was because the isolator, an SC80, was not suitable for use with a winch.


But the customer did not have a winch when he bought the SC80 for his Nissan, and had he contacted me first, instead of listening to another “expert” auto electrician, the customer could have had a simple marine battery switch fitted, for a hell of a lot less than what he was conned into paying, and I can assure you, the customer was NOT impressed when he found out what he could have done, with the setup he already had.


The other was a D4 owner who, again, was conned into replacing one of my isolators with a DC/DC device.


I only found out about the D4 when the customer called me to find out why his system did not work with my isolator and was now even worse with the DC/DC device.


The guy hardly drove his D4 and this was his problem, a problem that was fixed by him connecting a solar panel to his D4 while it was not being used.


Brian, this may sound like sales hype, AND IT IS, but there is no other system on the market that gives anywhere near the benefits my systems do and no other system looks after ALL your batteries as well as mine does.


At this point in time, I will leave this as my reply but if you want more specifics, and an HONEST comparison between my systems and any other, just ask.

[jon3950]

While we wait for Tim to answer this properly, it's a half truth; yes they do allow the the main battery to drain down and no its not a problem. They are designed to draw off both batteries until they reach a certain cut-off voltage (can't recall what it is off the top of my head). Once that voltage is reached then it isolates the aux battery. It leaves plenty for starting.

I'm on my fourth Traxide System and so far have had zero problems with this set-up. The D4 kit is very good, easy to install and reliable.

Cheers,
Jon

[jon3950]

Beat me to it! [biggrin]

[Eevo]

He said not to touch the traxide as they 'leach from the main battery, dropping voltage to 12.1V'.




at least he got the facts right.
just he needs to work on the interpretation.

[drivesafe]

Hi again Brian and sorry mate, there were two other occasions where my isolators were replaced.


One was a Land Rover owner, who was given incorrect info about how another brand of isolator worked so he replaced an SC40 with something else.


The other, and I am not sure whether Weeds replaced it in an existing vehicle, or just used a different brand of isolator in a new vehicle.


With a bit of luck, Weeds might post up and give you his reason for the different isolator use.

[BrianElloy]

Gents - thanks for all the quick replies and certainly no offence intended at any stage, to anyone.

To be clear, my auto electrician is "me" - not this bloke - i just bought a pretty solid driving light bracket assembly from him and we got talking.

To Mr Traxide - no offence dude - was an honest question, and the number of your installations I'm sure speak more loudly than any one auto-sparky.

To everyone else - this was an honest question, as I was prepped to move on a Traxide unit (note I have a V8 so I need the D3 unit apparently due to the dual air-filter real-estate problem I'm facing) but the comment made to me by the sparky caused me reason to pause ....

regards to all

Brian

[drivesafe]

To Mr Traxide - no offence dude - was an honest question.
Brian
Hi Brian and I took your post as being just that, an honest question and I was not offered in the least.

Again, thanks for posting the question in the first place.

[Homestar]

I've seen and fitted many differrent units over the years, but the Traxide unit is by far the best and most versatile unit on the market that I've seen. It does heaps more than other do, and yes it does draw from the starting battery - but cuts out way before it will ever be an issue to start the vehicle.

What it does do is bring your starting battery to a much higher state of charge after a few weeks of use - before running one in my L322 I used to get intermittent faults when starting the vehicle - ABS and traction control stuff due to a dip in the battery volts when cranking. This was completely eliminated with the Traxide kit.

I'd suggest your Auto Ekectrician is just pushing the brand he sells onto you because if he really did know his stuff, he wouldn't make claims like that.

Oh, and I'm an Electrician with over 20 years experience on isolated power systems, so I actually understand what the Traxide kit actually does, and what others do (or don't do as the case may be). :)

My advice would be to find an Autolec who doesn't bag out gear he knows very little about - I just find that unprofessional.

Just my 2 cents, I have nothing to do with the Traxide product, just used and installed several of his variants into vehicles and found them to be far superior to other crud on the market most of which is just a voltage activated switch and has no smarts at all - often for a similar or higher price than the Traxide kits.

I would highly recommend them and it sounds like you can do your own stuff, installing one is a snap. :)

[weeds]

Which redarc did he suggest??

My first isolator was a marine battery type switch..idiot switch I used to call it because one day some idiot is going to forget to turn it back on

I than installed a traxide.....

I now run the basic redarc 'SBI12' on my current defender and in three work cars....

They all work.....

[irondoc]

Hi Brian

I have a 2011 2.7 D4 with Tim's Traxide kit, but I have replaced the SC80 with a 200A Redarc isolator. I understand the benefit of Tim's isolator, but I have always used redarc's and like their simplicity and override switch (which was not available on Tim's kit when i bought it IIRC). The main reason is that I want my main battery isolated shortly after I turn off the engine. Call me old fashioned, but I like my batteries separated at 12.5V. It's just a thing I have in my head with no great reason for it.

Cheers
Lucas

[Eevo]

Call me old fashioned, but I like my batteries separated at 12.5V. It's just a thing I have in my head with no great reason for it.



i'm in the same boat. i think the crank battery should be protected at all costs.

having said that, ive just ordered 2 sc80's from Tim and willing to give it a go.

[loneranger]

The other was a D4 owner who, again, was conned into replacing one of my isolators with a DC/DC device.


I only found out about the D4 when the customer called me to find out why his system did not work with my isolator and was now even worse with the DC/DC device.


The guy hardly drove his D4 and this was his problem, a problem that was fixed by him connecting a solar panel to his D4 while it was not being used.

Sorry to hijack this thread but a question I've been meaning to ask. I have the Traxide USI-160 fitted with 2 Optima yellow tops. The batteries have been fitted for about 2 years and are not holding charge. I changed them over for 2 more Optimas I had spare on Friday and it starts fine at the moment. I hardly drive the 110 unless we are on holiday so sometimes it sits for weeks without moving. The only thing I do is sometimes unlock and re-lock car to access tools. Would the fact I hardly drive the vehicle contribute to the problem. The battery did run flat once when I left the interior light on but its an Optima so I would have thought it should be able to handle that.

[drivesafe]

Hi Weeds and Lucas, just a question, if you wanted to cutout to be around when the motor is turned off, then you could have had both systems, User Selectable 12.5v or 12.0v cutout with my USI-160?

[scarry]

Hi Brian

I have a 2011 2.7 D4 with Tim's Traxide kit, but I have replaced the SC80 with a 200A Redarc isolator. I understand the benefit of Tim's isolator, but I have always used redarc's and like their simplicity and override switch (which was not available on Tim's kit when i bought it IIRC). The main reason is that I want my main battery isolated shortly after I turn off the engine. Call me old fashioned, but I like my batteries separated at 12.5V. It's just a thing I have in my head with no great reason for it.

Cheers
Lucas

I sort of do this with mine at times as well.
I find the SC80 in my D4 fantastic,but as the vehicle is not used a lot at times,i now have a switch on the SC80 negative wire .
This allows my to isolate the two batteries,and turn off the SC80, when I need to,or both may get to a low state of charge,particularly the vehicle starting battery.This also happens if doing short runs.


The switch also lets me easily and conveniently charge the two batteries separately,if I want to.

This is not a complaint,it is just the owner of the vehicle needs to know how the system works.

It would be impossible to develop a system that works for everyone,in all situations.

The latest SC80 also uses less power,which will reduce the issue.

[drivesafe]

i'm in the same boat. i think the crank battery should be protected at all costs.

having said that, ive just ordered 2 sc80's from Tim and willing to give it a go.
Hi Eevo, your order was being shipped tomorrow, but I will upgrade it to 2 x SC80-BM instead of the standard SC80s.

Similar to the USI-160, the new SC80-BMs have a User Selectable 12.7v or 12.0v Cutout as well a few other new features.

I'll get you to give me some feedback if you don't mind?

[Eevo]

Hi Eevo, your order was being shipped tomorrow, but I will upgrade it to 2 x SC80-BM instead of the standard SC80s.

Similar to the USI-160, the new SC80-BMs have a User Selectable 12.7v or 12.0v Cutout as well a few other new features.


thanks Tim.
that would be good thanks.
i can have 12.7 in my friends 4wd as she doesn't drive it often
and i'll have the 12.0 in mine.

[drivesafe]

Sorry to hijack this thread but a question I've been meaning to ask. I have the Traxide USI-160 fitted with 2 Optima yellow tops. The batteries have been fitted for about 2 years and are not holding charge. I changed them over for 2 more Optimas I had spare on Friday and it starts fine at the moment. I hardly drive the 110 unless we are on holiday so sometimes it sits for weeks without moving. The only thing I do is sometimes unlock and re-lock car to access tools. Would the fact I hardly drive the vehicle contribute to the problem. The battery did run flat once when I left the interior light on but its an Optima so I would have thought it should be able to handle that.
Hi Loneranger and yours is a common situation.

As I posted earlier in this thread, if it is convenient try connecting a solar panel to the system.

A 10w panel can be used and no solar regulator is needed.

BTW, if you still have the old Optimas, try the same with them and I bet within a month, they will be back to near full capacity.

[weeds]

Hi Weeds and Lucas, just a question, if you wanted to cutout to be around when the motor is turned off, then you could have had both systems, User Selectable 12.5v or 12.0v cutout with my USI-160?

Happy with my selection and don't foresee needing any extra functions, I haven't even wired the jump start wire to a switch.....

from memory I paid $110 ish for the redarc, not sure what your systems go for these days

[loneranger]

Hi Loneranger and yours is a common situation.

As I posted earlier in this thread, if it is convenient try connecting a solar panel to the system.

A 10w panel can be used and no solar regulator is needed.

BTW, if you still have the old Optimas, try the same with them and I bet within a month, they will be back to near full capacity.

Thanks Tim. That's an easy fix. I was going to plug the old ones into my Cetec and see if it replenishes them but I have a solar panel I can use if that will work as well.

[drivesafe]

Happy with my selection and don't foresee needing any extra functions, I haven't even wired the jump start wire to a switch.....

from memory I paid $110 ish for the redarc, not sure what your systems go for these days

Yep, I can't compete with those prices but it's horses for courses. If they meet your needs, job done.

[drivesafe]

Thanks Tim. That's an easy fix. I was going to plug the old ones into my Cetec and see if it replenishes them but I have a solar panel I can use if that will work as well.
Hi again Loneranger, and the solar charging will actually do a better job than ANY brand of battery charger.


The reason being that the solar “turns off “ every night and “turns on” every morning.


This means the battery settles over night and then get the electrolyte stud up every morning.


This progressively dissolves most, if not all of the sulphration that can build up while the batteries are not in use.

[loneranger]

Hi again Loneranger, and the solar charging will actually do a better job than ANY brand of battery charger.


The reason being that the solar “turns off “ every night and “turns on” every morning.


This means the battery settles over night and then get the electrolyte stud up every morning.


This progressively dissolves most, if not all of the sulphration that can build up while the batteries are not in use.
I'll try the solar panel option first. Cheers.

[Eevo]

Yep, I can't compete with those prices but it's horses for courses. If they meet your needs, job done.
i think you offer better support and warranty.
worth the extra money imho

[drivesafe]

thanks Tim.
that would be good thanks.
i can have 12.7 in my friends 4wd as she doesn't drive it often
and i'll have the 12.0 in mine.
Hi Eevo, and because of the very reason scarry ( Paul ) posted, the new standard SC80s now have an automatic 72 hour TIME-OUT feature, where the isolator turns off 72 hours after the motor is turned off. This is to save wasting battery power when the vehicle is not being used.


But the new SC80-BM isolators have a User Selectable 72 hour ( factory setting ) or 18 hour ( User Selectable ) TIME-OUT settings


I suggest you leave yours at 72 hours but with your friends 4x4, if it is not being driven very often, then set it to 18 Hours.


This will reduce the isolator power usage time but will still allow time for the auxiliary battery to back discharge and top up the cranking battery.


This is one of the main advantages my isolator offer over all other types.


This feature not only helps to keep the cranking battery in a higher state of charge, but it will actually help to extend the operating lifespan of the cranking battery.

[BrianElloy]

I've seen and fitted many differrent units over the years, but the Traxide unit is by far the best and most versatile unit on the market that I've seen. It does heaps more than other do, and yes it does draw from the starting battery - but cuts out way before it will ever be an issue to start the vehicle.

What it does do is bring your starting battery to a much higher state of charge after a few weeks of use - before running one in my L322 I used to get intermittent faults when starting the vehicle - ABS and traction control stuff due to a dip in the battery volts when cranking. This was completely eliminated with the Traxide kit.

I'd suggest your Auto Ekectrician is just pushing the brand he sells onto you because if he really did know his stuff, he wouldn't make claims like that.

Oh, and I'm an Electrician with over 20 years experience on isolated power systems, so I actually understand what the Traxide kit actually does, and what others do (or don't do as the case may be). :)

My advice would be to find an Autolec who doesn't bag out gear he knows very little about - I just find that unprofessional.

Just my 2 cents, I have nothing to do with the Traxide product, just used and installed several of his variants into vehicles and found them to be far superior to other crud on the market most of which is just a voltage activated switch and has no smarts at all - often for a similar or higher price than the Traxide kits.

I would highly recommend them and it sounds like you can do your own stuff, installing one is a snap. :)

well i'm sold --- thanks for all the replies. makes my decision so much easier. will be going down the Traxide path for sure.

[DiscoMick]

No problems with the Traxide 160 in my Defender - works fine.

[Ranga]

Hi Tim - you don't happen to have a 'trade-in' option for and old style SC80 for the new SC80-BM do you? [bigwhistle]

[drivesafe]

Hi Tim - you don't happen to have a 'trade-in' option for and old style SC80 for the new SC80-BM do you? [bigwhistle]
Hi Ranga and PM me your phone number and I will see what we can come up with.

[Vern]

No problems with the Traxide 160 in my Defender - works fine.
I have the same in my rangie, but i have no idea how to use it! The led sequence i find confusing for my pea brain😊

[Chops]

All the sequences do look a little confusing, however in saying that, the only time I have ever had an issue with mine, was when I happened to notice it didn't look to be doing what it normally did (flashing wise). So on inspection, I remembered I'd cleaned out the fridge after a spill from one of the daughters semi frozen alcoholic beverages,,, only to realise I hadn't turned the fridge off afterwards.
The result was, the fridge had been running empty for close to three months,, one battery dead flat,, but never had an issue with the car starting at all.
For me,, this is why the Traxide is there. In the end, if your food spoils, or (Heavan forbid) your drinks go warm,, it doesn't matter,, at least you can still start the car and go.

[Vern]

Whats the led sequence for normal charging, and what do you do to put it in winch mode? These are the only 2 things i think i require.

[Chops]

Haha,, I asked Tim this this morning, so now I feel qualified enough to answer.

Switch towards the LED is normal running, away from the LED is winch mode,,, (I think 🤔)

[Vern]

Well thats pretty easy then😉

[LandyAndy]

Must mark mine.It gets knocked and I forget which way!!!!!!
Tim should have the switch marked.
Andrew

[loneranger]

I keep a copy of the instructions in the centre console. If only I would remember they are there when I need them. :angel:

[Vern]

I keep a copy of the instructions in the centre console. If only I would remember they are there when I need them. :angel:
I used to as well, but my morse code isn't quite up to scratch 😊

[Jock McD]

G'day all & especially Tim. Following this with interest being the satisfied owner of one of Tim's D4-5U kits. Very happy. Question now is around using a solar panel to keep everything topped up. Can I simply plug the panel into the rear Anderson plug without a regulator? Thanks, Jock.

[Tombie]

Only if 10w or less. Above that a regulator is required.

[Kandy]

Hi again Loneranger, and the solar charging will actually do a better job than ANY brand of battery charger.


The reason being that the solar “turns off “ every night and “turns on” every morning.


This means the battery settles over night and then get the electrolyte stud up every morning.


This progressively dissolves most, if not all of the sulphration that can build up while the batteries are not in use.

Please explain?
I leave my caravan battery (Supercharge Allrounder on constant charge "float' with a smart charger - 240v power- as Ive always believed a battery is happier with a "full belly" and Im always topping up my vehicles batteries if not in use ( Ctek smart charger)

[jonesy63]

Please explain?
I leave my caravan battery (Supercharge Allrounder on constant charge "float' with a smart charger - 240v power- as Ive always believed a battery is happier with a "full belly" and Im always topping up my vehicles batteries if not in use ( Ctek smart charger)


Read this: Lead–acid battery - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery#Sulfation_and_desulfatio n)
Then re-read what Tim wrote above.

[Toxic_Avenger]

I have no real opinion / allegiance one way or the other. I have a Blue sea systems ML-ACR. I don't tow or have any other demanding battery requirements, but chose this due to:
1) IP66 rated (essentially water and dust resistant)- because defender.
2) It can handle a full 500A current without popping- I run my winch thru this.

Other than an ID 10 T error which happened when I left something plugged into the vehicle for 2 weeks and completely flattened a starting battery, I have no other issues with it keeping a charge on the batteries. The ability to self jump start is very handy in these situations.

[Nicky]

I have no real opinion / allegiance one way or the other. I have a Blue sea systems ML-ACR. I don't tow or have any other demanding battery requirements, but chose this due to:
1) IP66 rated (essentially water and dust resistant)- because defender.
2) It can handle a full 500A current without popping- I run my winch thru this.

Other than an ID 10 T error which happened when I left something plugged into the vehicle for 2 weeks and completely flattened a starting battery, I have no other issues with it keeping a charge on the batteries. The ability to self jump start is very handy in these situations.

The C-TEK smart charger will know when to turn off.

[incisor]

The C-TEK smart charger will know when to turn off.
Till it loses the plot..

I have had two that consistently overcharged​ batteries...

I won't leave my current c-tek on for more than a couple of days..

Learn't my lesson the hard way...

[Guss]

Hi, just out of interest I spoke to our local LR Service Centre (Bris) about installing a dual battery sytem, they suggested Redarc and when I said I was interested in Traxide they tried to steer me away. They gave the same reasons, low voltage issues in crank battery...

I'm glad I saw this thread.

Cheers

John

[vnx205]

Unless people have much smaller batteries or have engines that are a lot harder to start than my 300Tdi, I don't quite understand why they think 12.7v or even 12v is a problem.

Six and a half years ago when my previous battery was on its last legs and overdue for replacement, I checked the voltage a couple of mornings before I tried to start it. The battery had 10.5 volts and it started the Defender - just.

I'm not suggesting that you could depend on a battery with that voltage, but 10.5v is a heck of a lot less than 12v.

While I don't own a Traxide or even a dual battery setup, I am prepared to believe that taking the main battery down to 12.7v or 12v is a benefit, not a problem.

[scomac]

Over a month of the D4 being mainly used as a shopping trolley, the battery voltage drops to around 12volts. I plug in my c-tek 7amp charger into the anderson plug at the rear and leave it over night as many do and takes it back up to 12.7volts. This is not only necessary but it also will hopefully prolong the life of the batteries. I don't see this as a "PITA" or a problem. I think anyone who has a problem with the Traxide set up hasn't read the instructions or are just bloody lazy and can't be bothered plugging in a charger. I plan to go one step further as Tim has suggetsed and install a small solar charging set up, "one day".
Just my two cents! ;)
Cheers
Scott.

[drivesafe]

Hi John, and sorry this is so long winded but that sort of response is typical from people who may be great mechanics but also try to pass themselves off as auto electricians when they really haven’t got a clue or are attempting to sell you something that just does not have the advantages my isolators offer but they make a good profit on.


I’ve been supplying these isolators, operating with a cutout voltage of 12.0v, for 27 years now, and no one has ever had a problem with my systems, unless there was already a problem in the vehicle in the first place.


In fact, in many cases, my system actually fixes problems that would otherwise continue to cause grief for the owner, and in quite a few cases, for the dealerships trying to solve the problem.


And the most common problem is Shopping Trolley Syndrome, where the vehicle is continually driven for short drives, and because the cranking battery never gets enough charge time to replace the energy use while starting the motor, progressively, the cranking battery is slowly discharged.


The very thing Scott just posted about.


Something else that most people are unaware of, is when your battery is continually undercharged through short drives, it not only slowly discharges, but over time it also looses the amount of battery capacity that can actually be charged.


This then causes a problem in that even if you do go for the occasional long drive, the battery can no longer be charge to it’s original capacity.


My isolators resolve these potential problems, in MOST cases.


With extreme cases of very short driving situations, nothing will help ( again see Scott’s real world solution ).


But in many other cases, because my isolators keep the batteries linked, first off, when you start your motor, you will be drawing current from two batteries, and this has a number of advantages.


The starter motor current load is shared so the cranking battery does not have to discharge as much energy as it would by itself, so you will be able to replace the energy used to start the motor in a shorter drive time.


Short driving habits will eventually cause messages like “Low Battery, Start Motor” to appear. This unfortunately is usually misinterpreted as an indication that the battery is getting dangerously low.


In most cases, this is not the case. Depending on the make of vehicle, these messages are actually generated by the Infotainment unit and have nothing to do with the BMS ( Battery Management System ) and do not indicate the true state of the cranking battery.


Cranking batteries are rated by CCA and the CCA of any cranking battery is maintained by the battery down to 40% of the State of Charge of the battery, and this is at 0 degrees.


So even at 11.9v, the cranking battery will still have it’s desired cranking capability.


In reality, I have tested starting numerous makes and models of NEW vehicles and as yet have not come across any new vehicle, Land Rovers included, that could not be started using a cranking battery with only 20% SoC ( 11.6v ) which means at 12.0v, there is plenty of starting power in reserve, in a cranking battery, at 50% SoC.


My isolators also give you reverse charging, allowing the AUXILIARY battery to charge and maintain the cranking battery when the motor is off.


But there is another benefit with having a cutout voltage at 12.0v.


Main people with D3s and D4s, will go camping and then when they go to start their D3 or D4, find they have a flat cranking battery, and this can happen even when these vehicles have one of my isolators installed.


The main cause of this problem is people continually opening and closing doors on their vehicles.


With vehicles without my isolator installed, the amount of times you can open and close doors before you discharge your cranking battery is a lot less than the number of times you can do the same thing when one of my isolators is fitted, and this type of situation is a perfect example of where there is a real benefit in having a low, 12.0v cutout voltage level and anything above this can actually lead to cranking battery going flat sooner.


These are just some of the real life advantages my isolators offer.

[roverrescue]

Tim
Add another one to your list of "four" or whatever isolaters out of 4000 that were replaced
I put an SC80 into a friends 80 series a few years ago
All good initially but after a bit of hard starting (likely insufficient driving) and me on leave
she went to an auto elec who hacked your sc80 out and put a redarc in - which fixed her low start voltage after not driving issue????

Anyway I never got the unit back to send back to you to check if it was faulty.

Anyways add it to your list????

To be honest if I was installing a VSR I would choose one with terminal lugs on the unit for
Wiring purposes.

But Me I'm happy with manual switches a voltmeter and a brain.

S

[LRD414]

I must admit I don't understand how the reverse charging from aux to cranking battery works with the SC80 when the voltage is above cutoff and isolator open. Aren't the batteries sitting at a single voltage in that case, so no flow of current?

Scott

[drivesafe]

Hi Scott and most batteries, regardless of the type of isolator, will be at different voltage levels, when driving around town.


With conventional isolators, the auxiliary battery can be fully charged and sitting at 12.7v, but because of say lots of short drives, the cranking battery can be at 12.2v, a common found voltage level when doing short drives.


With my isolators, it is still common to have the Auxiliary settle at a higher voltage than the Cranking battery, after lots of short drive.


In this type of situation, because the auxiliary battery is in a higher state of charge, it will VERY slowly back discharge and eventually equalise with the cranking battery and this will take anything up to 24 hours.


But if the vehicle is doing a lot of long drive times, after starting the motor, the as you say, they are both likely to be at the same charge level and voltage.


I am currently using my RR for some tests. My RR is not used very much, and when I went to install a new version of the DT90 in my RR, after sitting for 3 days, the cranking battery was at 11.84v when I opened the door.


Opening the door on a D3, D4, RRS and an RR, usually causes a voltage drop in the cranking battery and the amount of voltage drop depends on the charge state and condition of the cranking battery


I fitted the new isolator and did a bit of driving of about 90 minutes and then didn’t use it again for 3 days, but this time it was at 12.25v when I opened the door.


It was driven for about 2 hours, 6 days ago, and I am waiting to see what the voltage will be tomorrow, after leaving it unused for 7 days.


I am actually testing both the new DT90 and a new 65Ah Lead Crystal battery.


See how it goes in the morning!

[Eevo]

Tim
Add another one to your list of "four" or whatever isolaters out of 4000 that were replaced
I put an SC80 into a friends 80 series a few years ago
All good initially but after a bit of hard starting (likely insufficient driving) and me on leave
she went to an auto elec who hacked your sc80 out and put a redarc in - which fixed her low start voltage after not driving issue????

Anyway I never got the unit back to send back to you to check if it was faulty.

Anyways add it to your list????

To be honest if I was installing a VSR I would choose one with terminal lugs on the unit for
Wiring purposes.

But Me I'm happy with manual switches a voltmeter and a brain.

S


given the lack of troubleshooting/information, i'm not sure how you can say its faulty.

[DiscoJeffster]

I must admit I don't understand how the reverse charging from aux to cranking battery works with the SC80 when the voltage is above cutoff and isolator open. Aren't the batteries sitting at a single voltage in that case, so no flow of current?

Scott

Hmmm same.
Assuming sat idle, engine not running, connected together above isolation voltage, they should be equal. That's just how it works - voltage will flow to level itself.
Now when I start it, does the isolator split them? Maybe? Even so, how much current is used to start the engine that would be consumed by the starter?
850CCA max, say 3 seconds cranking?
3/60/60 * 850 = 0.71amp hour capacity used? Seems really low I admit but I can't see the issue with this calc.

So I've used under an amp capacity starting it?
Charging should direct equal flow to both once running as I understand the isolator is capable of more than enough current flow to the secondary.

So I can't understand how there can be a great disparity. Yes if they were heavily discharged then I can see how they could take a while to stabilise.

[DiscoMick]

If the starting and auxiliary batteries are different types - maybe a starting battery and a secondary AGM - they will also charge and discharge at different rates. AGMs discharge slowly, which is why they are good for running a fridge. Starting batteries operate faster, to give a big burst to start an engine. So it's not surprising if they show different states.

[drivesafe]

Hi Jeffster and there is a lot more to it than that.


There is not only the energy used to crank the motor, but in the case of a D3 and 2.7L D4, the alternator does not start charging for exactly 30 seconds after the motor is started, every thing is running off the cranking battery ( and the auxiliary when one of my isolators is in use ).


On D4s, this can be up to a few minutes before the alternator starts charging.


Then there is the energy lost at the last time you turned the motor off because it takes approximately 3 minutes for the computers to shut down. This one can be timed by watching the PARK BRAKE light on the dash.


This remains on until the Shut-Down sequence is finished, and is done so so that you do not disconnect the battery before the Shut-Down sequence is finished.


All this used energy has to be replaced and it does not happen in an instant. It takes at least 10 minutes driving just to replace the energy used by the starter motor and starter solenoid.


BTW, my isolators rarely shutdown during starting, because they are designed to tolerate a voltage drop below the cutout level for 16 seconds.

[DiscoJeffster]

If the starting and auxiliary batteries are different types - maybe a starting battery and a secondary AGM - they will also charge and discharge at different rates. AGMs discharge slowly, which is why they are good for running a fridge. Starting batteries operate faster, to give a big burst to start an engine. So it's not surprising if they show different states.

I would argue this is not correct sorry. An AGM is a more stable design and tolerates heavy discharging, plus can accept higher inrush charging currents and discharge currents. After all, they can deliver 850CCA and more so they are more than capable of high output.
Any battery will discharge in line with its capacity. Two different type 90ah batteries outputting the same current will discharge at the same rate. An AGM will tolerate going to a lower voltage without damage and thus can deliver effectively more 'juice' without being damaged. This is why you're right, AGM is great for a fridge. They're also great for cranking, just come at a price premium which on most cars is not good value or necessary.

My understand is that cranking batteries are actually slower to charge than an AGM as AGMs are capable of higher amperage. Yes if you have different types of batteries, there could be times when you have disparity, but that should still only really be when they've been isolated from each other.

[drivesafe]

Yes if you have different types of batteries, there could be times when you have disparity, but that should still only really be when they've been isolated from each other.
Hi again Jeffster and there is more to it than that.


For example, in a D4, the auxiliary battery is nearly twice the cable distance from the starter motor and because of the voltage drop high currents cause, the cranking battery will still supply far more of the energy for starting than the auxiliary battery will.


In a D3 the cable distance is much greater again so the auxiliary battery will supply even less.


Then you get the flip side.


Because an Optima is a rapid charge battery, it will charge at a much faster rate than the cranking battery will, even when the cranking battery is another AGM.


This is because the currents used to charge batteries is a fraction of the high current used to start the motor. As above, during starting, these high current cause a huge voltage drop.


While charging, even with the high current alternators in a D4, the current while charging is much lower and this leads to a much small voltage drop. Hence the higher charge capability of the Optima is exploited.


So after a start and a short drive, the Optima is most likely going to be in a higher state of charge and this occurs without the batteries ever being isolated.

[DiscoJeffster]

Ok, but do we agree that two batteries linked together will not stay with a voltage disparity and will level each other by one discharging to the other until they are at the same voltage? If not my faith in science is lost. For example, when parked after a drive.

[drivesafe]

Ok, but do we agree that two batteries linked together will not stay with a voltage disparity and will level each other by one discharging to the other until they are at the same voltage? If not my faith in science is lost. For example, when parked after a drive.
This is what I have already stated as being the case.

My isolators exploit this reaction but as I have posted earlier, the two batteries do not equalise immediately, it will take hours to achieve.

[roverrescue]

Eevo
Have another read fella. I have no idea whether unit was faulty?
If the auto spark hadn't have thrown it out I would have sent it back to tim though.
My story was just to add to tims assertion that in 4000 units only four have been replaced....

I have no desire for a VSR I'm obviously a control freak and prefer to manage crank / house / load and solar myself!

But I would suggest to tim that having flying leads as opposed to posts looks chincy to an auto sparks eyes....if you want to encourage people to install CB in the system why not build them into the box and have solid lugs to attach wiring too?

S

[Redback]

Eevo
Have another read fella. I have no idea whether unit was faulty?
If the auto spark hadn't have thrown it out I would have sent it back to tim though.
My story was just to add to tims assertion that in 4000 units only four have been replaced....

I have no desire for a VSR I'm obviously a control freak and prefer to manage crank / house / load and solar myself!

But I would suggest to tim that having flying leads as opposed to posts looks chintzy to an auto sparks eyes....if you want to encourage people to install CB in the system why not build them into the box and have solid lugs to attach wiring too?

S

There fixed it for you Steve[bigwhistle]

[drivesafe]

I would suggest to tim that having flying leads as opposed to posts looks chincy to an auto sparks eyes....if you want to encourage people to install CB in the system why not build them into the box and have solid lugs to attach wiring too?
Hi Roverrescue, thanks for your suggestion but as the bulk of my isolators are supplied in Plug-N-Play kits, where they are already preassembled, and there is no need to cut cables or fit terminals.


So there is no need for my to change the setup on either the SC80 or the DT90. Also note, the SC80 and DT90 are also supplied with the Circuit Breaker remounted on the side of these isolators.


The USI-160 has always been supplied with studs but this is because of the much higher currents expected to be carried in a USI-160 setup and again, they too are normally supplied in ready to fit kits.

[landoman]

Have a traxide SC80 ( old model) in my DBS
I have read that it can draw down the starter when the car is not driven a lot
This I have found to be true ( 12.97v to 11.98v in 5 days )

I have read that I can fit a switch in the green yellow earth wire to turn the traxide off when not using the car a lot ......or buy a new model that has less of a draw .....I can find no data that clearly gives a comparison of the old versus new traxide SC80

so a few questions

1) what exactly is the difference in draw down or leakage from the new versus old SC80 and would this justify me spending for a new model .

2) how many days couldn’t I expect to get with the new model versus the old ( 5 days )
if I don’t drive the car ?

3) why do these units seem to use up so much battery power when the car is idle
......what is it in their make up that does this ?

4) I also believe that the new model SC80 has an in cabin switch to turn them off .
Does the new model come with sufficient wiring to get from a defender seat battery compartment to under the dash some where to fit ?

Many Thanks

[landoman]

Have a traxide SC80 ( old model) in my DBS
I have read that it can draw down the starter when the car is not driven a lot
This I have found to be true ( 12.97v to 11.98v in 5 days )

I have read that I can fit a switch in the green yellow earth wire to turn the traxide off when not using the car a lot ......or buy a new model that has less of a draw .....I can find no data that clearly gives a comparison of the old versus new traxide SC80

so a few questions

1) what exactly is the difference in draw down or leakage from the new versus old SC80 and would this justify me spending for a new model .

2) how many days could I expect to get with the new model versus the old ( 5 days )
if I don’t drive the car ?

3) why do these units seem to use up so much battery power when the car is idle
......what is it in their make up that does this ?

4) I also believe that the new model SC80 has an in cabin switch to turn them off .
Does the new model come with sufficient wiring to get from a defender seat battery compartment to under the dash some where to fit ?

Many Thanks

[scarry]

Yes mine did the same, i just fitted a switch to the earth wire and turned it off at times.
I think the new SC80 has a timer in it that shuts it down at a fixed timed period.
A look on the TRAXIDE site will reveal all.

For our new vehicle I will more than likely go for the DT90,as it has an adjustable timed period, and other good features,perticularly for vehicles that sit around a bit.

[drivesafe]

Hi landoman and first off, if your batteries dropped from 12.97v to 11.98v in five days, then there is a number of reasons for this.

But with batteries in a good condition, with the SC80 running, they should not drop to that level in anything less than about 4 weeks.

In these times, where vehicles are not being used much, or not at all, if your batteries are not maintained properly between use, then your batteries are going to sulphate.

Battery sulfration causes a loss in battery capacity and also a reduction in the ability to recharge batteries while driving.

The worse the sulfration, the greater the problem, but also the short the lifespan will be for the batteries.

I usually get one or two phone calls relating to this problem every week, but the longer this lockdown has gone, the more calls I am getting and it’s now around one or more calls a day, and not just from my Land Rover customers.

Whether you have one of my systems or not, you MUST maintain your battery or batteries during long non use periods.

For long term maintenance of batteries, see the link below, but you can also carry out a simple load test to see if your multiple charging process has helped your batteries.

Have a note pad handy and test the voltage of both batteries after the vehicle has been sitting for at least two hours after the motor was last turned off.

Next, turn your ignition on and turn your headlights on.

NOTE, DO NOT start your motor. With most new vehicles with a Push-Button Start, you need to have the brake pedal pressed to start the motor.

DO NOT press the brake peddle, just press the Start Button. This will turn the ignition on without starting the motor.

Again, in most new vehicles, the ignition needs to be on before you can turn your headlights on.

With the ignition and headlights now on, continually measure the cranking battery voltage over the next 5 minutes.

The voltage will drop quite rapidly at first but after a few minutes, it should taper off and stabilise.

NOTE, the voltages measured before and at the end of the Load Test are not critical, just a reference point for later.

Once it stabilises, note the voltage of both batteries and then turn off your headlights and ignition.

If the voltage does not stabilise and just keeps dropping, you most probably have a problem battery or batteries.

Now start the rejuvenating process described in the link below.

After a week or so of carrying out the rejuvenating process, again after the vehicle has been sitting for at least a few hours, carry out the same load test again.

This time, at the end of the load test, you should see at least a 0.2v or more, increase at both batteries. This indicates your batteries are in reasonably good nick and should now hold a lot more capacity. They will also charge quicker when you drive.


SPECIAL NOTE, if you are going away over the Christmas - New Year break and will be free camping, it is a good idea AT ANY TIME, not just because of the Lockdown, to carrying out the rejuvenating process in the weeks before you go.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/the-verandah/246755-line-auto-electrical-info-8.html

[landoman]

Thanks Tim
Appreciate your thoughts

I had noticed my batteries dropping voltage over a very short time so have been doing some monitoring to try to understand why

My current batteries that have this problem are a few months old As I needed to replace the optima yellow top I decided to replace the starter at the same time as it was 4 years old and fitting them and a traxide in the defender box is a bit of a pain so thought I’d do both together

In order to try to understand what’s going on I did the following

I fully charged both batteries with a ctek
up to the top level 7 on the ctek
Then I dove from Sydney to Cooma
Both my batteries were fully charged
Optima 13.00
Starter 12.97

I then disconnected the optima from the traxide and left the starter connected to the traxide for 5 days . I monitored the two batteries over the 5 days . The optima ( disconnected from the traxide ) kept It’s charge the starter connected to the traxide lost its charge
Reading after 5 days
Optima 12.86
Starter 11.98

Starter loosing charge

I then started the car and ran it for a while to put some charge in the battery for the drive back to Sydney and reconnected both batteries with the traxide
At 4.00 pm Friday reading
Optima 12.51
Starter 12.51

Left car overnight all turned off

Sat morning reading
Optima 12.32
Starter 12.32

Both batteries appeared to be loosing charge

When got home I removed the positive and negative leads from the starter I also took the traxide lead off the starter so the starter was completely stand alone not connected to anything . The traxide was still connected to the optima and the earth spot but not the starter
I monitored both batteries over 2 days
Optima went from 12.93 to 12.88
Starter went from 13.24 to 12.93

So both appeared to be holding their charge


This is why I think the sc80 is drawing a lot out of my batteries and I don’t understand why

[drivesafe]

I then disconnected the optima from the traxide and left the starter connected to the traxide for 5 days . I monitored the two batteries over the 5 days . The optima ( disconnected from the traxide ) kept It’s charge the starter connected to the traxide lost its charge
Reading after 5 days
Optima 12.86
Starter 11.98

Hi again landoman and sorry mate but you need to follow the suggestion I gave you in the last reply.

You have NOT rejuvenated your battery, you have simply given it a bit of a charge.

The info you have posted up clearly indicates that your cranking battery is still in a poor condition.

If after 5 days, your cranking battery was down to 11.98v then the SC80 most likely discharged it down to around 12.05v in the first couple of days. It should have taken at least 2 weeks.

When the SC80 turned off, your battery would have SETTLED UP about 0.1v and even after the SC80 turned off, your battery has continued to self-discharge at a VERY fast rate.

Even if the SC80 was still on, after just 5 days, your battery should still be up around the 12.3v to 12.4v if your battery was in a decent condition.

Again I suggest you carry out the FULL rejuvenating process and not just once, but leave your battery charger on your cranking battery all night, every night, for a week, then see what is happening with your cranking battery.

Again, my SC80 is drawing your battery down, but your battery is discharging way too quickly. This is a problem with the battery, not the SC80.

[Tombie]

You removed the leads that go to the vehicle and the battery held charge...

That would be because the vehicle isn’t drawing to run and alarm, a clock, stereo memory etc..

[landoman]

Ok
I now have the optima out of the car and the starter only in the car
I’ll rejuvenate the starter as you suggest for a week
Then fit the traxide and see what happens

[landoman]

I have a Cetek chargeri I think it has a recondition setting I’ll use that for a week

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks Tim
Appreciate your thoughts

I had noticed my batteries dropping voltage over a very short time so have been doing some monitoring to try to understand why



big ole snip, you know what you wrote....

your traxide is working correctly.

your starter battery is beginning to die

when the traxide is hooked up both batteries are connected and due to white man magic the aux battery is shouldering the lions share of the parasitic draw of the vehicle. (this works both ways when both batteries are good with a traxide and is the primary advantage of a traxide)

when you goto start the traxide should be dropping out, the starter battery then gives what its got to start the vehicle (which it still has thanks to the traxide letting the aux battery do its thing and support the starting battery) and then the alternator takes over and starts charging everything.

If it helps...

think of your batteries as buckets on a table, think of the traxide as a thin pipe connecting them. Over time as the battery ages it becomes a thinner version of the bucket, same height just skinnier. Starter batteries usually have a harder life than aux batteries so they get smaller faster.

as you draw power out of the cranking battery if the traxide is allowing them to be connected because the disconnect voltage hasn't been reached yet power flows from one battery to the next.

in the bucket scenario if (in your case) you have a 1l bucket connected to a 10l bucket and you take half a litre out of the 1l bucket you've used 50% of its capacity the same half litre out of the 10l bucket its only 5%. Due to the syphon effect of the small pipe both batteries will re-equalise over time. if you take the water out of the 1l bucket slowly enough you'll not notice the difference in level between the 2. This is part one of the magic of the traxide over a DC/DC or simple charge level vsr. Power goes in both directions.

If both buckets are the same size and you draw the water slowly enough then you get to draw down on both at the same time and they will empty at the same rate. This is part two of the magic of the traxide and takes advantage of a little thing called Peukerts law (its complicated battery stuff) which grossly simplified provides to the effect of.

IF you draw half the current you get more than double the time out of the battery if you double the current you get less than half the time, and the higher the SOC of a battery (to a point) the faster a given charging current will bring the battery back to a high state of charge (lets call it 95% because that last 5% is a challenge to get in). for example


Your battery is rated to do 10 amps for 10 hours and its called a 100aH battery (this is fictional numbers to demonstrate only) because Ah is simply amps times hours;

If you draw at 1 amp you get about 120hrs of use (thas 120ah)
if you draw at 5 amps you get about 21 hours(105ah)
if you draw at 20 amps you get 4 hours (80ah)
if you draw at 100 amps you get .5 hours (50ah)





Now... There is a disadvantage to a traxide over some other dual battery systems that dont use the same control logic as a traxide.

IF (and this is a fairly specific list of conditions) you have


a dying starting battery that will hold just enough energy to start the car
a moderate load on the aux battery that does not automatically cut out before the traxide disconnects
no excessive parasitic draw on the starting battery
some parasitic draw on the starting battery
a dying or nearly dead aux battery


The traxide will allow both batterys to discharge in sync until the cut out voltage is reached. The moderate parasitic draw on the cranking battery will flatten it until it can no longer start the engine BUT it will still power up the ignition related electrics (for a while).
in this situation if you had a lesser battery management system you could start the car because as soon as the ignition went off or the charging voltage dropped down the aux battery will be disconnected and left to fend for itself without taking any power from the crank battery.

This is the observered "flaw" that let "chain store" and dealer ¿auto electrical fitters? claim that their systems are better than traxides because their keep the starting battery voltage higher. (if you want to see them stumble and shy away real fast ask them for the specific voltages and SOC of a their system configuration after 10hrs of use and the total energy availability in the systems as a whole on comparison given identical loads and battery conditions on a traxide)

However with a traxide when you get into the situation you're in where you have more parasitic load than the starting battery can handle, but no so much load on the aux battery as to cause the total power draw to drag the system down to the point the traxide disconnects... you can still start the car.

[RHS58]

Regarding rejuvenating the starter battery when one has a Traxide DBS:
Will it work if I connect the smart charger via the rear Anderson plug, or do I connect directly to the starter battery? And do I need to disable the SC80

[drivesafe]

Hi Ron and yes, if it is the OLDER SC80 ( pre 2017 ) it will work via the Anderson plug, if fitted. As long as the SC80 is still on.

Note, a regulated solar panel will also work via the rear Anderson plug.

This makes it easy to keep your vehicle locked but still be able to charge batteries.

With the NEW SC80 and all DT90 isolators, It is also a way to get a charge into a cranking battery that may be so flat that you can not unlock your vehicle. You first get a charge into the auxiliary battery and once it is around 80% charged, the SC80 or DT90 turns on and allows the flat cranking battery to be charged.

[RHS58]

Hi Ron and yes, if it is the OLDER SC80 ( pre 2017 ) it will work via the Anderson plug, if fitted. As long as the SC80 is still on.

Note, a regulated solar panel will also work via the rear Anderson plug.

This makes it easy to keep your vehicle locked but still be able to charge batteries.

With the NEW SC80 and all DT90 isolators, It is also a way to get a charge into a cranking battery that may be so flat that you can not unlock your vehicle. You first get a charge into the auxiliary battery and once it is around 80% charged, the SC80 or DT90 turns on and allows the flat cranking battery to be charged.

Thanks Tim.
That's what I've been doing over the last nearly 7 years.
Have a feeling the cranking battery is not 100% (not 3 years old yet, and checked out the Delkor warranty - 36 months).
Will do the nightly charge for a week or so as suggested.
And thenget the battery tested.

[DiscoMick]

Just adding the comment that if your starter battery is sulphated it will need at least a week of treatment on a muliti-stage charger to cause a noticeable difference and longer is better.
An option is to connect a solar panel as the battery gets charged during the day and rests at night.
If the panel is permanently connected, maybe on a roof rack, sulphation is greatly reduced and the battery lasts longer.
This has worked for me.

[Mog60]

I have a Cetek chargeri I think it has a recondition setting I’ll use that for a week
Not sure what type of battery you have but I asked Ctek directly if using the Recond feature was any use with AGM's.....

Question:- "Am I correct in thinking that the reconditioning function of the MXS5 should not be used with these AGM batteries?"

Their response.....

"Dear Sir Right, Recond is only for WET, Ca / Ca and MF batteries."


Attached is a post from another forum regarding this question. Hence, my email to CTEK asking for clarification.

What do the experts think about using the recondition function on a Ctek? I don't use it myself, prefering to use Tims strategy as linked in this thread.

[drivesafe]

Hi Mog60 and thanks for the post.

To my understanding, AGMs do suffer from sulfration but it takes longer to buildup.

You MUST NOT use any device that raises the voltage above the safe tolerance level of a given AGM.

I state a given AGM, because most AGMs have a safe maximum voltage tolerance of 14.7v but some AGMs, like Optima Yellowtop can go to 15.0v

You need to check the manufacturer's specs for your specific battery to be safe.

Or just use the standard 3 stage charging in AGM mode, that most modern battery chargers have, and carryout the rejuvenation process I described.

While time consuming, this is safe to use with any form of lead acid battery.

DO NOT use this process with Lithium batteries.

[landoman]

big ole snip, you know what you wrote....

your traxide is working correctly.

your starter battery is beginning to die

when the traxide is hooked up both batteries are connected and due to white man magic the aux battery is shouldering the lions share of the parasitic draw of the vehicle. (this works both ways when both batteries are good with a traxide and is the primary advantage of a traxide)

when you goto start the traxide should be dropping out, the starter battery then gives what its got to start the vehicle (which it still has thanks to the traxide letting the aux battery do its thing and support the starting battery) and then the alternator takes over and starts charging everything.

If it helps...

think of your batteries as buckets on a table, think of the traxide as a thin pipe connecting them. Over time as the battery ages it becomes a thinner version of the bucket, same height just skinnier. Starter batteries usually have a harder life than aux batteries so they get smaller faster.

as you draw power out of the cranking battery if the traxide is allowing them to be connected because the disconnect voltage hasn't been reached yet power flows from one battery to the next.

in the bucket scenario if (in your case) you have a 1l bucket connected to a 10l bucket and you take half a litre out of the 1l bucket you've used 50% of its capacity the same half litre out of the 10l bucket its only 5%. Due to the syphon effect of the small pipe both batteries will re-equalise over time. if you take the water out of the 1l bucket slowly enough you'll not notice the difference in level between the 2. This is part one of the magic of the traxide over a DC/DC or simple charge level vsr. Power goes in both directions.

If both buckets are the same size and you draw the water slowly enough then you get to draw down on both at the same time and they will empty at the same rate. This is part two of the magic of the traxide and takes advantage of a little thing called Peukerts law (its complicated battery stuff) which grossly simplified provides to the effect of.

IF you draw half the current you get more than double the time out of the battery if you double the current you get less than half the time, and the higher the SOC of a battery (to a point) the faster a given charging current will bring the battery back to a high state of charge (lets call it 95% because that last 5% is a challenge to get in). for example


Your battery is rated to do 10 amps for 10 hours and its called a 100aH battery (this is fictional numbers to demonstrate only) because Ah is simply amps times hours;

If you draw at 1 amp you get about 120hrs of use (thas 120ah)
if you draw at 5 amps you get about 21 hours(105ah)
if you draw at 20 amps you get 4 hours (80ah)
if you draw at 100 amps you get .5 hours (50ah)





Now... There is a disadvantage to a traxide over some other dual battery systems that dont use the same control logic as a traxide.

IF (and this is a fairly specific list of conditions) you have


a dying starting battery that will hold just enough energy to start the car
a moderate load on the aux battery that does not automatically cut out before the traxide disconnects
no excessive parasitic draw on the starting battery
some parasitic draw on the starting battery
a dying or nearly dead aux battery


The traxide will allow both batterys to discharge in sync until the cut out voltage is reached. The moderate parasitic draw on the cranking battery will flatten it until it can no longer start the engine BUT it will still power up the ignition related electrics (for a while).
in this situation if you had a lesser battery management system you could start the car because as soon as the ignition went off or the charging voltage dropped down the aux battery will be disconnected and left to fend for itself without taking any power from the crank battery.

This is the observered "flaw" that let "chain store" and dealer ¿auto electrical fitters? claim that their systems are better than traxides because their keep the starting battery voltage higher. (if you want to see them stumble and shy away real fast ask them for the specific voltages and SOC of a their system configuration after 10hrs of use and the total energy availability in the systems as a whole on comparison given identical loads and battery conditions on a traxide)

However with a traxide when you get into the situation you're in where you have more parasitic load than the starting battery can handle, but no so much load on the aux battery as to cause the total power draw to drag the system down to the point the traxide disconnects... you can still start the car.

Yes I know what I wrote
And given both batteries (optima and starter are only about 3 months old ) I cant see see why my batteries would be dying
That is what I am trying to understand
They hold charge when disconnected from the traxide and lose it when hooked up to it

Anyway for the purposes of this exercise
I will put the starter on the ctek for the next week then hook it up to the traxide and see how it performs
i will just do the starter at this stage as I have removed the optima for now

My starter is from NRMA BATTERIES
3884 calcium chloride 850 cranking amps
100 a h
Should I put this in the recon setting on the ctek or just the normal 7 stage charging cycle

[drivesafe]

Hi landoman, you are not understanding what you are seeing.

Your batteries are NOT holding a charge, they are simply holding a voltage.

Without an applied load, the voltage is irrelevant.

Your SC80 has a known current load and based on that known current load, your batteries are going flat way too quickly, again meaning they are NOT holding a full charge.

My guess is that your batteries are down to around 50% of their full capacity.

To your question and no, do not use the RECONDITION cycle, as it hits the batteries with a 15.8v charge and that is way, WAY to high for any AGM, just use the standard multi stage charging and make sure you put the charger on at night and turn it off each morning, or in reverse if that suits you.

Do not just put the charger on and leave it on for a week as this will not rejuvenate your batteries.

[Blknight.aus]

When got home I removed the positive and negative leads from the starter I also took the traxide lead off the starter so the starter was completely stand alone not connected to anything . The traxide was still connected to the optima and the earth spot but not the starter
I monitored both batteries over 2 days
Optima went from 12.93 to 12.88
Starter went from 13.24 to 12.93

So both appeared to be holding their charge

This is why I think the sc80 is drawing a lot out of my batteries and I don’t understand why



They hold charge when disconnected from the traxide and lose it when hooked up to it


You and I have different definitions of holding a charge.

The optima is, the starter is not.

I get less drain down than that on a single n55 starter in a disco1 tdi300 with it still hooked up to the vehicle..

and remember with the optima connected to the traxide and assuming the traxide was in the batteries connected configuration the optima is driving the insignificant draw of the traxide itself AND if you left the traxide hooked up to the starting batteries leads whatever is drawing power on that lead.

without going into the whole whiteman mathamagic of batteries your batteries produce a voltage based upon the amount of amperage they have available to push out into a load (its the whole V=IxR thing) if you've got a battery thats loosing volts with no load on it then its not charged or self discharging. IT could also be damaged, you only have to drop a battery once in just the right way and its done. You may not have, but how about the guy at the factory, the guy loading it to the truck, unloading it at the store, putting it on the shelf, getting it from the rack out the back......

right off the top of my head, a fully charged cell in a 12V flooded lead acid battery should be sitting at about 2.2v which over 6 cells is 13.2V.
at 80% it will be about 2.1V per cell for 12.6
50% is something like 1.9 per cellfor 11.4v
10% is about 1.8v per cell aroundt 10.8

if you have one failing cell its going to screw the whole shebang. as not only is it not contributing to the game but its also going to be actively drawing power when the load goes on.

and yes you can hook the 3884 calcium sereis of flooded cell batteries onto most chargers with a rejuvination cycle, I generally just hook anything thats not lithium up to the solar system on arkie and let that and the alternator have at em for a couple of weeks. If its an AGM and I can be bothered I'll pull the anderson to the main battery bank and flick the solar controller to its agm settings but thats just extra work I'm too lazy to be bothered with because it means I have to rememebr to undo it when Im done.

[landoman]

Ok I won’t set to recon
Just use the normal battery charge

And I may not be understanding what I’m seeing .....but I do know that with both batteries only about 3 months old something is not right


I will but on normal ctek cycle for 5 nights
turning off each morning and turning on in each night

[DiscoMick]

Yes, they should be fine after only three months, unless a battery has dropped a cell or there is a drain.
Is the vehicle left locked? Unlocked vehicles can wake up repeatedly and run tests, causing a drain. Just a thought.

[josh.huber]

Give em a good charge. Leave em separate, The whole time.. have a Auto sparky test them.. Super cheap.. Repco etc. Do this for free

[landoman]

Good suggestion
I’ll charge them for 5 or 6 days as suggested
Then have them both tested

[landoman]

Also is it possible that you can over charge a battery with a ctek

I have seperated the optima and the starter
So I can charge the starter every night and rest it during the day then change the setting from normal battery to AGM and charge the optima
During the day while the starter gets a rest

[drivesafe]

Hi sandman, just leave the charger set for AGMs, and it will easily and safely charge both batteries properly.

[landoman]

Also can some one explain in simple non technical language how charging the battery for 5 nights rejuvenates it

Ps
I need to add both batteries are 8 months old
not 3 months old .....my mistake. Time flys when you are having fun

But at 8 months I Would not expect them to have lost capacity to hold charge

[landoman]

Hi sandman, just leave the charger set for AGMs, and it will easily and safely charge both batteries properly.

I have seperated the two batteries
The optima is now out of my car at the moment

I had read that the AGM setting on the ctek
Should not be used on normal wet batteries
.....so it’s ok is it ?

[DiscoJeffster]

I have seperated the two batteries
The optima is now out of my car at the moment

I had read that the AGM setting on the ctek
Should not be used on normal wet batteries
.....so it’s ok is it ?

So you have a wet starter and AGM secondary?

You really should use an AGM starter as well. LR changed over all D4 batteries to AGM for good reasons. The cars are hard on their batteries.

[drivesafe]

I have seperated the two batteries
The optima is now out of my car at the moment

I had read that the AGM setting on the ctek
Should not be used on normal wet batteries
.....so it’s ok is it ?
Hi again sandman, and yes, you can use the AGM setting on most batteries.

The only batteries that need an even lower setting are OLDER American GEL batteries, which there are now very few of them.

If you use the AGM setting on a wet cell ( flooded ) battery, the battery will simply take longer to fully charge, meaning the charger will be in the Bulk/Absorbtion stage for a longer period of time, before it goes into the Float stage.

With the intention being to rejuvenate the batteries, the amount of time each stage takes is irrelevant as it is the total time the charger is actually ON for that is important.

So just leave your charger in the AGM setting and all will be fine.

[DiscoMick]

Also can some one explain in simple non technical language how charging the battery for 5 nights rejuvenates it

Ps
I need to add both batteries are 8 months old
not 3 months old .....my mistake. Time flys when you are having fun

But at 8 months I Would not expect them to have lost capacity to hold chargeThis might help in understanding sulphation. It helped me.
Basically, if the battery does not receive enough regular charging agitation, maybe because it is only getting short stop-start trips or is sitting idle, sulphate crystals may form in the cells. Applying a multi-stage charger may reduce the sulphation, if it has not become permanent.

Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University (https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/sulfation_and_how_to_prevent_it#:~:text=Sulfation% 20occurs%20when%20a%20lead,cannot%20charge%20the%2 0battery%20sufficiently).

[Blknight.aus]

think of it as plaque on your teeth.

instead of using a pick to get it off you're using an electrochemical process, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, even if it does work you can only do it so many times before the build up of crud in the bottom of the battery begins to short out the battery from the bottom or the material on the plate is too degraded to perfrom.

[landoman]

after 7 days of leaving the wet cell charging battery ( in the car ) on the ctek all night and the optima ( auxiliary .. out of car ) ) on all day I had both batteries tested to day by super cheap auto

The starter ( in car ) give the following results

BATTERY TEST

Rating 850 CCA
Measured 859 CCA
Volts 12.95
Good battery

STARTER TEST

normal
Volts 10.76

CHARGING TEST

OK
Volts 14.06


So can I conclude from this that my starter ( 8 months old ) is in ok shape

I now want to find why it’s loosing charge over 4 or 5 days

The optima was tested out of the car
Volts 12.83
Rating 765A EN
Measured 809A EN

[Blknight.aus]

after 7 days of leaving the wet cell charging battery ( in the car ) on the ctek all night and the optima ( auxiliary .. out of car ) ) on all day I had both batteries tested to day by super cheap auto

The starter ( in car ) give the following results

BATTERY TEST

Rating 850 CCA
Measured 859 CCA
Volts 12.95
Good battery

STARTER TEST

normal
Volts 10.76

CHARGING TEST

OK
Volts 14.06


So can I conclude from this that my starter ( 8 months old ) is in ok shape

I now want to find why it’s loosing charge over 4 or 5 days

The optima was tested out of the car
Volts 12.83
Rating 765A EN
Measured 809A EN

I'd like to know what testing method was used....

a battery that shows that many CCA but drops to 10.76V on a starter test means one of 2 things.

1. The CCA test was done out of vehicle with an electronic meter and it started out with a strong surface charge
2. the test was done in vehicle was done in car and used the starter motor to load up the battery for the starting test.

in which case....

I still think your starter battery may be on the way out. because....

If it was done in car using an electronic tester and the car started without cranking for a full 30 seconds (and 10 seconds feels like forever on a starter motor) then the battery is not going anywhere near its CCA rating if its dropping to 10.76V just starting an engine. The CCA rating is how many amps the battery can push for 30 seconds before the voltage dips to 7.2V

IIRC the starter for the tdv6 draws around 380Amps instantly on engagement then once cranking drops to around 220 amps and on average a warmed up tdv6 cranks for about a second to a second and a half before it starts...

if your battery was fully charged and in good health and it was able to push 850 amps for 30 seconds I'd expect the starting voltage to be nearer 11.5-12V.. By comparison my obtained second hand from a Cat 730 (blew the terminal off the bridge cable), Cat N70 class battery that I've had for nearly 4 years now still only drops to 11.5V (indicated on the cig lighter socket voltage gauge indicator that drives the USB/multi socket adaptor) cold starting a 4bd1 without glowing. Last time I tested it the instant amps was around 400 (the meter pegs at 400) and the while cranking amps averaged 250. To be fair I'm pretty sure the 4bd1 usually starts on the second or third compression stroke and doesnt need to wait for a bunch of computers to work out whats going on.



I suggest that you try doing a prolonged load bank test on the battery and test the RC of the battery. RC is how many minutes the battery can handle having 25 amps drawn from it before the terminal voltage hits 10.5V.

Fully charge the battery, let it sit for about an hour then put 25 amps worth of load on it (4 12v 75 w bulbs or 3 12v 100w bulbs) and measure it with a meter till it drops below 10.5

this time divided by the rated RC x100 gives you a better indication to the overall health of the battery.

I'd almost bet your battery is in the 70% bracket.

if its that or better then its time to start testing the parasitic load on the battery system of your vehicle. If I recall it correctly early on there were 2 fuses that you could pull that would drastically reduce the overnight drain on a battery and depending on which one (or both) you needed to pull to drop the parasitic load it indicated which systems were staying awake when they shouldnt be. one was the security system, the other was entertainment and I think the third was something to do with the vehicle dynamics (think suspension/traction control) 10 seconds on google show it to be FL17+18

D3 Battery Drain - Fuse FL17 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/153579-d3-battery-drain-fuse-fl17.html)

DISCO3.CO.UK - View topic - Tracing a current drain.UPDATED 13/07/15,Fixed (http://www.disco3.co.uk/forum/topic90823.html)

fuse 26 and 28 also get a mention

[landoman]

Starter battery was tested by super cheap in car ...not sufficiently knowledgeable to understand how their testing machine works
What I do know is that the motor starts immediate and with out excessive turning over
...don’t know if the drop to 10.70
Volts is normal for a defender engine and battery (BTW I have a defender 110 I’m here on the D3D4 site as it’s here I found the most relevant thread .....( used to have a D4 )

I’ll do the load test suggested by Tim on the starter Battery using the ignition on ( not motor ) and headlights on and see what happens to the voltage
...find it hard to believe the starter is down to
50 or 70 % after 8 months

When I do the load test should I put the headlights on beam ?
I also have some led driving lights should I switch those on or just use the two headlights

Many thanks

[drivesafe]

Hi landoman, depending on use, you can drop up to 50% of a battery’s capacity in 3 months, so loosing a large amount of battery capacity over 8 months is not unexpected, again depending on usage.

The most common cause of rapid battery capacity lose is short drives and if combined with long periods of no driving, and you have the perfect receipt for a short battery life.

[landoman]

Given I constantly drive the car around Sydney
And have made a number of long drives ( to broken hill and Cooma ) every few months in the 8 months since I fitted the two new batteries
This would not seem to be reason my battery would be failing .... if indeed it is


I need to do the headlights draw test
.....so do I do high beam on or just the dipped headlights on
I also have two led headlights should I put them all as well or just do the headlights
I know to just put the ignition on and not have the motor running and measure the voltage before I start and continuously to see how fast it drops

[drivesafe]

I need to do the headlights draw test
.....so do I do high beam on or just the dipped headlights on
I also have two led headlights should I put them all as well or just do the headlights
Hi again landoman, you actually needed to do the load test before you started the rejuvenation charge cycles, so that at the end of the charge cycles, you could carry out the same test and then use the results from the first test as a reference point to see if the second test showed an improvement.


Anyway, you only need to have your headlights on because the combination of the vehicle’s ignition load and the headlight load will be around 40 amps and this is sufficient to conduct the test.

[Tombie]

This 8 month old battery... there’s a thing called a warranty.

Take the battery to the shop, have it load tested. If it’s failed they give you a new one. Simple.

Early life failures happen - hence warranty.

[AK83]

....


So can I conclude from this that my starter ( 8 months old ) is in ok shape

I now want to find why it’s loosing charge over 4 or 5 days

....

Is it a redtop?
Brother has a yelow top and redtop.
His yellow is fine, may lose half a volt in two weeks(or so).
Redtop does exactly the same as your description. Batteries about 2 years old now. Just came out of the blue.
Bro doesnt' drive the TD5 a lot too. I had it in my driveway for a few months doing small bits and bobs on it, and how I noticed this redtop becoming a problem.

Tests fine after a day or so sitting after a good charge.
Hold charge OK-ish for a few days(maybe 3 or 4 or whatever).
But in a week, maybe 5 days, drops down to under 12v, and even tho 11.9 should be OK to start the TD5, it won't.
We have a VSR dual batt with a jump starter over ride to the yellow top. I gets just enough current to get the TD5 started.

But in two weeks of no starting or charging the redtop, even the jump start feature won't crank the TD5 .. I have to hook up the truck battery to start it.

I've read that Optima have dropped the ball in recent times with the quality of their batteries.



This 8 month old battery... there’s a thing called a warranty.

Take the battery to the shop, have it load tested.......

My Century lasted 10 months.
Dropped a cell.
Idiot me, left it in the car after jump starting, and removed it at the store.
Of course the car charged the battery up again.
Counter person tested battery .. all good .. even tho I know it wasn't.
DOH!

Next day, I disconnected it and repeated the process.
This time around at the store, was the Century salesman/service chap.
He tested it, and didn't even place the battery under load.
Showed 9 volts, and he instructed store person to replace battery.
Took about 5 mins.

[landoman]

No problem to get a new battery if it’s the problem ...it’s just that I’m not convinced yet that it is

Tested at super cheap says the battery is good

Now have done the following as per traxide suggestion

Put starter on. Ctek every night for 10 nights

After 10th night took off the ctek and let battery
Rest for 2 hours
Voltage 13.01
Turned ignition on voltage 12.62
Turned headlights on voltage 12.30

After 2 mins voltage 12.31
After 3 Mins 12.32
After 4. 12.34
After 5. 12.34
After 6. 12.34
After 7. 12.35
After 8. 12.35
After 9. 12.35
After 10. 12.35

Turned ignition and lights off and waited 30 mins. Voltage 12.58

Could we conclude that the battery is ok ?

[josh.huber]

In my book she's good. I clamp metered my car one time. 30amps when the door is opened. It's crazy.

[drivesafe]

Could we conclude that the battery is ok ?
Hi Landoman and sorry mate, while your test shows that your battery is in a reasonably good condition “NOW”, it is no indication as to what your battery’s condition was before you started the rejuvenation cycles.

The problem you were having in the first place was about diminished battery CAPACITY.

The Battery Test you got done was for the CCA of the battery and a battery’s CCA has absolutely nothing to do with or is in anyway an indication of battery CAPACITY.

[AK83]

I think it's just the commonly reported issue of optima quality degradation in recent years.

I'd done similar things to brothers D2TD5 when I had it for a few months about mid year.
It was sitting for a few weeks getting some dash panel stuff done to it, and knowing the batteries were only a couple years old at most(maybe 18 months) .. I didn't expect them to have issues.
But the redtop lost charge in about a week. Less so, the yellow top.
Put it on the charger .. etc, etc... held charge for a very short while .. a few days(maybe 5 or 7 or whatever) and dead again.

I have a NOCO charger, did a rejuvination .. no difference in either charge holding ability, nor any better at CCA.
CCA rating even after letting it sit for a few days was always just over what the battery was rated at.
I think D34 reds have 800CCA, battery tester always showed just above, maybe 805 or 815 or whatever, but always more than rated.
This was about mid year(before Queens Birthday) so I can't recall all the details exactly, but I remember it seemed to be OK .. other than losing charge after a few days.

As the interior panel work took few weeks to complete(massive idiot damage by previous owners!) .. I then had it constantly connected to a solar panel, and cheapie redarc regulator for weeks.

Brother has had the D2 back since about Sept, and he's reporting battery is still losing charge after (say) a week or so. But it cranks fine after sitting for say 3 days or so, with volts showing low 12's.

[landoman]

Hi Landoman and sorry mate, while your test shows that your battery is in a reasonably good condition “NOW”, it is no indication as to what your battery’s condition was before you started the rejuvenation cycles.

The problem you were having in the first place was about diminished battery CAPACITY.

The Battery Test you got done was for the CCA of the battery and a battery’s CCA has absolutely nothing to do with or is in anyway an indication of battery CAPACITY.

Ok good so if we assume my battery is in fairly good condition NOW ( just checked voltage at
12.83 ..24 hours after last test ) after the rejuvenation process is there my other tests I would need to do to check CAPACITY...before I re hook up my traxide and see what happens

many thanks

[Tombie]

First I’d just put it back in the vehicle and hook the vehicle up ONLY.

Then do your monitoring again.

This will set baseline for standard vehicle draw.

[drivesafe]

Ok good so if we assume my battery is in fairly good condition NOW ( just checked voltage at
12.83 ..24 hours after last test ) after the rejuvenation process is there my other tests I would need to do to check CAPACITY...before I re hook up my traxide and see what happens

many thanks
Just put everything back together as it was, and see how long your batteries take to discharge now.

[landoman]

First I’d just put it back in the vehicle and hook the vehicle up ONLY.

Then do your monitoring again.

This will set baseline for standard vehicle draw.

Good suggestion ....will monitor for a few days