Lighting Upgrade Questions [Archive] - Australian Land Rover Owners

alien

3rd April 2017, 04:44 PM

Don't Pumas already have headlight relays fitted from factory?

FSM wiring diagram suggests so...

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/04/1008.jpgN

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/04/1009.jpg
Yes they do, but not doing what we need them to.
Working backwards from the globes and dash light in picture 2 for the main(high) beam are J/K/L.
J/K/L in picture 1 go to fuses 17p & 18p (underdash fuse box).
They are feed from the headlamp switch.
This still has full current through the switch.
The relays are only fitted so the headlamps turn off when the ignition does.
In the past I've found one relay (R113) is turned on with the park lights, the other(R123) by the ignition(wire missing from the linked diagrams).

This is is why I went the twin relay setup Traxide sell.

Toxic_Avenger

3rd April 2017, 06:34 PM

Yes they do, but not doing what we need them to.
Working backwards from the globes and dash light in picture 2 for the main(high) beam are J/K/L.
J/K/L in picture 1 go to fuses 17p & 18p (underdash fuse box).
They are feed from the headlamp switch.
This still has full current through the switch.
The relays are only fitted so the headlamps turn off when the ignition does.
In the past I've found one relay (R113) is turned on with the park lights, the other(R123) by the ignition(wire missing from the linked diagrams).

This is is why I went the twin relay setup Traxide sell.

Great information, cheers. I'd been scratching my head over that for a while.

I also have also purchased the headlight relay kit, but have it 'in waiting'. I was delaying an install as I have not yet worked out a suitable place to mount the relays and the other things I want to wire up the enxt time I get my electro-freak on.
I think I've decided that I'll make a mounting plate up that mounts behind the LHS headlight, mounting off the 2 windscreen washer reservoir bottom mounts on the wheel arch liner. Only apprehension is how water resistant they might be to the inevitable water that finds its way to that location.

loneranger

3rd April 2017, 06:38 PM

Great information, cheers. I'd been scratching my head over that for a while.

I also have also purchased the headlight relay kit, but have it 'in waiting'. I was delaying an install as I have not yet worked out a suitable place to mount the relays and the other things I want to wire up the enxt time I get my electro-freak on.
I think I've decided that I'll make a mounting plate up that mounts behind the LHS headlight, mounting off the 2 windscreen washer reservoir bottom mounts on the wheel arch liner. Only apprehension is how water resistant they might be to the inevitable water that finds its way to that location.

I've got mine mounted behind the headlight on the wheel arch no issues with water yet. When I'm cleaning after off-roading I tend to stick the hose everywhere I can find an opening.

alien

3rd April 2017, 06:49 PM

MarkM

4th April 2017, 02:42 AM

I have put the two relays behind the LHS headlight as suggested above. I used the type with an integral mounting lug, and just a cable tie through this for mounting, this works well as it hold the relays "upright" meaning if there is any water ingress, they drain. Then the whole relay and plug base is taped and heat shrink wrapped.

Additionally, I eliminated the fog light, making this a second reversing light. Then I used the fog light circuit to switch a third relay, mounted with the above. This relay takes its active feed from the high beam switched circuit, and feeds my driving lights. This allows the fog light dash switch to become a very OEM appearance driving light switch, without my even needing to access the dash panel, i.e. without much effort. I picked up the fog light circuit under the driver's seat.

I have LED headlights and driving lights, so this works well. If using higher current conventional style lights, then a second high beam relay, one for the headlights and one for the driving lights, would be preferred.

loneranger

4th April 2017, 08:11 AM

Mine are on a bracket under the RH guard just behind the air intake hole that is usually blanked off.
This way I can access the fuses if needed without pulling anything apart.
Like everything, no 2 will be the same when adding goodies to ourselfs.
Can you put up a picture? I struggled to find a spot that wasn't behind the headlight.

D9Oh..

4th April 2017, 09:38 AM

I fitted the Traxide driving light loom back in 2014, added some LED spot driving lights onto the winch bar and fitted a couple of LED "globes" into the existing lights. Am really happy with the result although I am still unclear as to whether the LED headlight globes meet all Australian licencing guidelines. Have yet to be picked up on it so continue on.

Fitted the Traxide relays into a 6x4 waterproof junction box and mounted that to a bracket just inside the passenger side air intake cowl, its a fiddly fit in there but it allowed me to take the wires through the firewall on the passenger side and I found that easier for routing up under the dash than trying to come from the drivers side. Mine is a 2012 Puma, so others will be different. The junction box is fitted high up and easy to keep an eye on, or change out the relays, just not easy to mount in the first place.

Couple of photos attached

Vern

4th April 2017, 09:47 AM

Curious as to whats the point of doing the wiring upgrade then fitting led globes? Am assuming they have a much lower current draw

D9Oh..

4th April 2017, 10:55 AM

Hi Vern,

I fitted the loom first because I wanted to mount driving lights and upgrade the main headlights and thought it would cover all bases. Then when I saw how good the LED driving lights were I decided to fit LED "globes" to the main headlights as well. If I had come to that conclusion earlier, would still have had to fit new wiring and relays for the driving lights.

And I guess it gives you options down the track to go back to HID, headlights etc.

A weekend spent in the shed wiring a Landy is better than doing chores around the house..! Maybe https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/icons/icon7.png

filcar

4th April 2017, 11:56 AM

... Additionally, I eliminated the fog light, making this a second reversing light...

Hi Mark

Where did you take the feed for the drivers side reversing light from? An additional wire from the LHS or ...?

Cheers Phil

alien

4th April 2017, 03:19 PM

Can you put up a picture? I struggled to find a spot that wasn't behind the headlight.
I'll have a go at it, may take a day or two.

alien

4th April 2017, 03:23 PM

Hi Mark

Where did you take the feed for the drivers side reversing light from? An additional wire from the LHS or ...?

Cheers Phil
Tucked up the rear right hand corner is a plug for the trailer loom.
This where I picked up my reverse light feed.

filcar

4th April 2017, 06:31 PM

Tucked up the rear right hand corner is a plug for the trailer loom.
This where I picked up my reverse light feed.

My car has a trailer plug fitted so I will track back from that and see what I find, currently fitting a Rijidij rear wheel carrier so I might as well do this little job at the same time.

Cheers

jon3950

4th April 2017, 08:20 PM

Can you put up a picture? I struggled to find a spot that wasn't behind the headlight.

Here's how I did mine:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/236135-alasdair-my16-keswick-110-a-9.html#post2634864

I also put them under the blank air intake as I was concerned about accessing the fuses.

Cheers,
Jon

loneranger

4th April 2017, 09:52 PM

The pictures people have put up are a lot neater than mine. :) The problem with working behind the headlight is making it neat but they are in so they can stay there. I've pulled the headlight out on the side of the road in the dark when I had a problem and its not that big an issue for me to have to do.

MarkM

5th April 2017, 12:14 AM

[QUOTE=filcar;2658313] An additional wire from the LHS or ...?

/QUOTE]

Exactly

EastFreo

5th April 2017, 10:43 PM

I also second Disco Mick. A few weeks ago I upgraded my globes to the Philips Extreme 130. What a difference.

DiscoMick

6th April 2017, 09:27 AM

I also second Disco Mick. A few weeks ago I upgraded my globes to the Philips Extreme 130. What a difference.
Yes, for just $89 it made a huge difference. Of course, the original globes had faded, but it was still a big improvement for little cost.

PAT303

6th April 2017, 06:16 PM

Curious as to whats the point of doing the wiring upgrade then fitting led globes? Am assuming they have a much lower current draw

The point in doing the loom upgrade is to get 12.4V to the lights,without it the best you get is 11.6 on one side and 11.4 on the other,LEDs will be below their best at that voltage.I have also been stuck without headlights because the switch failed,the switch will fail regardless of what lights you run,having your headlights go without warning is a major PITA. Pat

PAT303

6th April 2017, 06:17 PM

East Freo and Mick,your lights will fail,fit the loom. Pat

Vern

6th April 2017, 06:36 PM

The point in doing the loom upgrade is to get 12.4V to the lights,without it the best you get is 11.6 on one side and 11.4 on the other,LEDs will be below their best at that voltage.I have also been stuck without headlights because the switch failed,the switch will fail regardless of what lights you run,having your headlights go without warning is a major PITA. Pat
Pat, i was of the assumption that the led headlights would have used 1/3 -1/5 of the current draw than the halogens, just like the ones i use for work (sparky), thats why i said that the relays would be a waste. But they don't i have just found out, they have a very similar current draw!
So led have the same current draw for lumen output, but a horrible kelvin output!
Another reason i am not really a fan of them just yet.

EastFreo

6th April 2017, 06:51 PM

East Freo and Mick,your lights will fail,fit the loom. Pat

Thanks Pat. I had a relay put in at Rovertech. Would that be sufficient? To be honest I got charged quite a lot for what seemed not a lot and with the benefit of hindsight should have had the loom put in.

AK83

6th April 2017, 07:30 PM

The point in doing the loom upgrade is to get 12.4V to the lights,without it the best you get is 11.6 on one side and 11.4 on the other,LEDs will be below their best at that voltage ......

You should get more than 12.4v through the wires to the headlight globes, noting that the car will be running too!
Where the old wires fall into a heap(and why a new loom is such a good upgrade) is current to the load(load in this case is the headlight globe).
The small piddly wires, being old probably can't push the ~4amps of current that the globe needs to work efficiently. 55/60w at 13v is about 4amps.
if your wires can only allow 2amps of current then obviously the load(ie. globe) only works 'half as well' .. therefore the yellowy crappy output is displays.

A good set of LED headlights(eg. H4's) will(or should!) have a separate driver controller box, and usually they have one for each LED globe.
This is how the the Philips Ultinon kit comes. Boxes are small and simple, three way plug plugs into the driver box, and a small round 3 core plug then connects driver box to LED globe lead wire.
Sounds convoluted and is a bit for install, but plenty of room behind a discovery(1 and 2) for the box, and if room was scarce in a defender, there's plenty of wire to place the driver boxes anywhere else.

What can affect an LED is not so much just the voltage, but the power supply to the driver(if a well sorted driver is used in the system). So I reckon I'd be getting my 13v through the wire(obviously the car is running!), but I haven't taken the time to measure the current through the wires .. ie. total power at the driver.
The driver should run fine with only 9 volts to it, as long as there is a decent current through the wires too.

Either way, without any wiring touched on my D1 .. and the wiring does look fragile and frail too .. I reckon I've doubled my headlight output on both low beam(more obvious) and on high beam.

It seems I've also converted my dad to LED too, he loves the (white)colour and reckons they're about twice the brightness too.
Just ordered a pair of cheapo LEDs for his old Explorer too. More as a test to see if they any good or not compared to the expensive Philips.

I don't have my variable power supply with me(it's being used to power a UHF radio for the time being) to show it, but you should be able to use 12v and still get good light output from a H4, as long as the current is there(about 5amps or so).

I once pushed 30v and 6amps through my spare LED light bar and it had a noticeable brightness difference than at 13v and 5amps(where I think it runs on the car mounted one).
The driver for that light bar must be internal to the light assembly and makes it hard to see what it is, and find wires to test(it's all sealed up), but I'd hate to think how quickly the light bar would blow up/out if it ran at those power levels all the time.
it is supposed to be a 180w capable LED setup(12 units at 15w each), and that's why I tried it out.

PAT303

6th April 2017, 09:44 PM

Pat, i was of the assumption that the led headlights would have used 1/3 -1/5 of the current draw than the halogens, just like the ones i use for work (sparky), thats why i said that the relays would be a waste. But they don't i have just found out, they have a very similar current draw!
So led have the same current draw for lumen output, but a horrible kelvin output!
Another reason i am not really a fan of them just yet.

I had a 20 minute phone call with Tim aka Drivesafe about LED's,there's no advantage with them at all unless you do the loom upgrade so why bother,just do the loom and fit night eater globes. Pat

PAT303

6th April 2017, 09:54 PM

AK83,by the time the power goes from the alternator back to the battery,the battery to the dash,through two switches,back out the dash,through the engine bay,across the front from one light to the other you only have 11.4V left,both of my Defenders had that before the uprated loom's. LandCruisers are the same,next time you see one at night you'll notice one headlight is brighter than the other,and they burn out the head light switch also.Both Vehicles need a loom upgrade,as does the Patrol,I fitted an ARB loom to my last Cruiser.You have a D1,they run a relay already from memory?. Pat

AK83

7th April 2017, 12:19 AM

I had a 20 minute phone call with Tim aka Drivesafe about LED's,there's no advantage with them at all unless you do the loom upgrade so why bother ....

Not my (recent)experience.

Can't remember if I posted in this thread or another, but I recently fitted a pair of Philips Ultinon LED H4s to my D1.
Difference is (pun intended) night and day.
No other change made, and I thought of adding a new self made relayed system as an alternative.
Brightness appears to be at least double the poor underpowered 55/60's I had(still have).

I also made the comment in whichever thread I did post in, that my volt meter with the lights on now sits at a steady 14.0v, whereas with the halogens it used to sit closer to 13.5-13.3v(this is obviously with the Tdi running).
Never really checked with engine off, but this is unimportant to me, as I rarely do that anyhow.

While I was doing the change I also changed the park lights(the T10 press in bulbs) to LED types too.
They, in themselves, look like headlights when on by themselves too.

I think you're right in that the D1's do have a relayed setup, and relays are in the engine bay fuse box(haven't really checked properly yet)
.. but the wires to the 3pin plug are dinky at best, and I'm imagining that they aren't supplying what they did when new.

ps. I do vaguely remember that the defender is setup to power the lights directly from the light switch too ... I'd be doing the loom upgrade just based on that setup alone. Can't imagine the light switch lasting too long running all that power through it.
I had a '79 RRC way back and I think it had the same system, and I changed it pretty much straight up after I got the car too.

But I'm with Vern in my thinking about LED H4 replacements. The Ultinons run at ~13W each globe, so 26W per pair. The low beam is a separate chip to the high beam chip, and so they're mutually exclusive.
So they only, and always, run at 26W per pair ie. Not 13W(low) plus another 13W for high beam for each globe.
Compared to a std halogen 55/60 setup, those globes try to draw 110W(per pair) at any one time, and obviously sometimes more.
So just like Vern estimated, that's only 1/4 the power(or current) requirement, and if those dinky, barely 4 amp capable, wires can supply those 4 amps(ie. 2 amps each line) then the LEDs should be running fine.

.. and this is what I see.

I need to measure their current draw one day, just for my own sake.

justinc

7th April 2017, 03:18 AM

D1 have no relays at all. They have good enough wiring to the headlamps to support 100/90w h4 globes if relays are wired in though, however The Traxide kit is a perfect total solution.

Jc

Vern

7th April 2017, 06:29 AM

Pickles2

7th April 2017, 07:19 AM

We have a '13 Puma 90, so I think I will have to do the loom upgrade at some stage.
Most on here have gone the Traxide way which is which is the way I think I will go, but I've heard a Piranha item mentioned on here as well,...is there a difference? My car has the factory driving light option as well,..would the loom cover them as well?
Can't do this stuff myself, so I'd be looking for a good Auto Elec in Melbourne, who was familiar with Defenders, to do a lovely "Factory" job for me...."Driven Auto Electrics" (Mobile Elec) has been mentioned.
I would welcome any further info, comments etc, from members, particularly with respect to a good Auto Elec who is familiar with Defenders. We're in Bayside Melb, but for a lovely job, I'm happy to travel.
Thanks, Pickles.

PAT303

7th April 2017, 08:37 AM

Pickles,I'd get it done mate.Tim's kit comes with full instructions,if you can change a head light globe you can fit his kit,best thing is he will sell you a basic loom,or a loom with a driving light circuit added.If you get stuck he is a phone call away.You'd be supprised how much brighter your lights are and you'll never be stuck with a failed switch,that's not nice. Pat

karlz

7th April 2017, 05:44 PM

Pickles2

7th April 2017, 06:14 PM

Heh pickles, just buy the traxide unit and I'll help you fit it. Its not terribly difficult Ive done it to mine.
That would be good mate, I'm bloody hopeless.
Pickles.

skidrov

8th April 2017, 02:56 AM

I had a 20 minute phone call with Tim aka Drivesafe about LED's,there's no advantage with them at all unless you do the loom upgrade so why bother,just do the loom and fit night eater globes. Pat

Not my (recent)experience.....

....not my experience either. I have swap-in LED headlights, 25W low beam, 48W high. Dramatic light-on-road difference - the LEDs are much more efficient in converting power to light, compared to halogen. [But, not the cheapest option.]

I'm not saying LEDs can't get better with proper wiring & relays (although I don't think it'll make a big difference to low beam, at half the wattage of standard) and I must admit I am thinking of doing this, for belt & braces. Also, with some LED headlights now getting up to 100W or more a side on high beam, I would say you certainly should. But, around town, low beam (where I must admit most of my night driving is), more than adequate light from 25W-a-side LEDs, really nice sharp cut-off. WAY better than standard.

Now, driving lights, another story! I have gone Lightforce 7" Strikers with a HID kit, and proper wiring/relays. Great long-range vision. Which again suits me - I am more likely to be road touring at night, rather than track crawling, and my research suggests that HIDs are still a better option for long range as compared to LEDs. So, the high-beam LEDs throw a great local flood, and the HID driving lights throw a great long-range spot. Side note: I should probably experiment with a spreader lens on one of them.

karlz

8th April 2017, 05:57 PM

....not my experience either. I have swap-in LED headlights, 25W low beam, 48W high. Dramatic light-on-road difference - the LEDs are much more efficient in converting power to light, compared to halogen. [But, not the cheapest option.]
....

First. I have Traxide wiring upgrade for both driving and headlights.

Driving Lights
I bought some really strong and bright "ARB illuminator clones" LED driving lights but I hated them.
At first I was toally amazed how bright they were, how everything looked like day time.
But then I started noticing a few irriatants. First was the street signs, they would reflect back so much of the led lights that all you noticed when driving were the street signs.
Next was the rain. When it rained, all you saw was raindrops and the led's sometimes made it harder to see.
Finally was the fog or smoke on the road, they just didnt cut it for me, so I took them off (I still have them if anyones interested) and replaced them with some halogen fyrlts (150w).
I'm really happy with the halogen driving lights. Yes, they dont seem as powerful as the led's but you can see further with them. Things in the bush are now noticeable.
So, in my opinion halogens are superior.

Headlights
I replaced my headlight bulbs with the Osram night breakers. I chose them over the Phillips because they were a more yellow light. In my opinion the yellow light is superior.
However, within 3 months the right hand normal beam bulb failed, so I just put the standard one back in. 2 months later the left hand High bean Osram failed, so I then decided to replace both with the Philips Eco. The Osrams were good, but the longevity wasnt. The eco's havent failed yet, but they arent as good as the Osrams.

LED Headlights
So for my main headlights I now am considering LED's, but I dont want the distraction LED's cause when I'm out in the bush and using the fyrlts.

Any chance I could see yours function at night?
I'm in Melb as well, SE suburbs.

Cheers

Vern

8th April 2017, 06:44 PM

The problem karlz is that the led headlights are 6000kelvin or higher, now if they made them in 4500 - 5000k they would have a lot less of that horrible glare.
As for the fyrlyts, i'd have to lose my hi mount winch to fit them, its a tuff decision.🤔. But i really can't stand the light from my lightbar

skidrov

10th April 2017, 04:40 PM

LED Headlights
So for my main headlights I now am considering LED's, but I dont want the distraction LED's cause when I'm out in the bush and using the fyrlts.

Any chance I could see yours function at night?
I'm in Melb as well, SE suburbs.

Cheers

Yep, I think we should be able to sort that - I'm inner SE suburbs. Will send a PM.

AK83

10th April 2017, 06:34 PM

.....

Finally was the fog or smoke on the road, they just didnt cut it for me, so I took them off (I still have them if anyones interested) and replaced them with some halogen fyrlts (150w).
I'm really happy with the halogen driving lights. Yes, they dont seem as powerful as the led's but you can see further with them. Things in the bush are now noticeable.
So, in my opinion halogens are superior.

....

Without knowing the exact situation of your lights, I reckon the glare you experienced was more to do with the wider spread of the LED .. or more accurately the inability to concentrate the LED beam more precisely.
If the brighter light is spread out at a wider angle, and it reflects back at you off highly reflective items, then the feeling is that they produce more glare.

When I got my D1, it came with a pair of IPF(I think, I'll have to check) driving lights. a previous owner had 100w H3 globes. They had a hybrid spread/spot lens type.
Driving on a deserted freeway with them on, was mostly an exercise in futility as the glare they produced on most signs was more of an annoyance. So they were mainly kept off.
Not long after that, I removed them and got my LED light bar, but I tried to choose a light bar that had a lot more spot to it, than spread.
Mine is still not as ideal as I'd like it to be, but it's useful on the whole.
I've never felt compelled to turn it off on a deserted freeway due to glare back off signs.

I've had ideas to attempt to install a pair of H3 LEDs into the IPFs(now in the shed), but most LED bulbs use a heatsink of some description, and there's not really enough room behind the H3 globe to the rear of the metal body of the light for many heatsink designs.

More importantly I'm probably going to put my money into a proper pair of LED pencil beams of some description.
Hopefully some Great Whites, but I'll wait and see if any decent looking cheap Chinese knock offs come to market any time soon tho.

timax

11th April 2017, 10:06 AM

Without knowing the exact situation of your lights, I reckon the glare you experienced was more to do with the wider spread of the LED .. or more accurately the inability to concentrate the LED beam more precisely.
If the brighter light is spread out at a wider angle, and it reflects back at you off highly reflective items, then the feeling is that they produce more glare.

When I got my D1, it came with a pair of IPF(I think, I'll have to check) driving lights. a previous owner had 100w H3 globes. They had a hybrid spread/spot lens type.
Driving on a deserted freeway with them on, was mostly an exercise in futility as the glare they produced on most signs was more of an annoyance. So they were mainly kept off.
Not long after that, I removed them and got my LED light bar, but I tried to choose a light bar that had a lot more spot to it, than spread.
Mine is still not as ideal as I'd like it to be, but it's useful on the whole.
I've never felt compelled to turn it off on a deserted freeway due to glare back off signs.

I've had ideas to attempt to install a pair of H3 LEDs into the IPFs(now in the shed), but most LED bulbs use a heatsink of some description, and there's not really enough room behind the H3 globe to the rear of the metal body of the light for many heatsink designs.

More importantly I'm probably going to put my money into a proper pair of LED pencil beams of some description.
Hopefully some Great Whites, but I'll wait and see if any decent looking cheap Chinese knock offs come to market any time soon tho.

7 Blue Light Facts: How Blue Light Is Both Bad and Good For You (http://www.allaboutvision.com/cvs/blue-light.htm) read especially point 5.
While the method of illumination is not much of an issue the colour temp and CRI of the light is. Blue light scatters more easily than warmer tones , creates eye strain and when its from a LED usually has a low CRI. (especially the cheap ones) If you dont agree then thats fine but google "night driving glasses " and ask your self why they are all yellow?

AK83

11th April 2017, 07:14 PM

.....
While the method of illumination is not much of an issue the colour temp and CRI of the light is. ....

LOL on the night driving !
I also got fooled into getting a pair, wore them for about an hour and chucked them in the bin! ..
How many people do you see out there at night wearing them?

You gotta luv marketing hype huh?

And again with the CRI 'propaganda'.
I think the main issue with CRI coming in to any equation with respect to car lighting has been propagated by a company in dire need of a marketing strategy, and folks just soak it up without understanding what it actually is(and means).

A color rendering index (CRI) is a quantitative measure of the ability of a light source to reveal the colors of various objects faithfully in comparison with an ideal or natural light source. Light sources with a high CRI are desirable in color-critical applications such as neonatal care, photography and cinematography.

and ..

... CRI is not a good indicator for use in visual assessment, especially for sources below 5000 kelvin (K) ....

Those two important quotes comes directly from the opening paragraphs in the wiki page on the topic of CRI (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index)!

As for blue light. I think most folks have a dislike for it, myself included. But white light is not blue light. White light is just bluer than yellowy halogen type light. That doesn't have the same meaning as blue light.
We all have particular preferences, yours may be warmer/yellower light, mine is whiter bluer light.
This really has no effect on glare tho.

ps. the term blue light is taken here to mean the modern method that many manufacturers seem to be keen to take for the headlights. I've noticed really new Merc, BMWs, and Volvos seem to have really blue headlights nowadays.
Not particularly appealing IMO.

But, back to glare ... point a 100w halogen spottie at a large road sign at the end of a T-junction, and you still get glare. Turn on your yellowy 100w spotties on in the fog, and you can't tell me you don't get glare in those conditions.
It'll be the same glare effect as you get with a pair of more efficient 15w LED globes .. it's just that the LEDs need less power to produce that glare.
In foggy conditions, I tilt my LED bar downwards if I want to attempt to use it without any glare coming back at me.

An interesting side note about CRI to be mindful of.
In the old days, CRI(created back in the 1930s when tungsten/incandescent globes were the norm) the colour temperature reference point was <5000K.
In the modern world tho with modern understanding of how to qualitatively measure light colour, they use D65 illuminant as the standard reference.
D65 has a colour rendering approximating midday sunlight hours, and it's kelvin value is 6500K (more accurately 6504K).
So, those folks that make it a point to highlight the importance of colour accuracy, mostly seem to have a preference for the warmer light colours(<5000K), yet the colour temperature reference point for modern colour accuracy measurements is the one they hate!

You have to love the conundrum there! :p

Color originates in the mind of the observer; “objectively”, there is only the spectral power distribution of the light that meets the eye. In this sense, any color perception is subjective.

Hence we come back to the conclusion that we each have our own preferences for light colour. Light colour is not CRI(as explained in the CRI wiki)
As described above, CRI is important mainly to photographers/cinematographers, but in reality only because it was once used a a reference point(by photographers) and that tradition has been maintained.

If you use your car headlights to photograph or video colour critical subjects(alternatively for neonatal care! :p), bonus to have access to high CRI lighting at the front of your vehicle ... otherwise meaningless.

trout1105

11th April 2017, 07:37 PM

I fitted a set of H7 globes to my D2 in both high and low beam lamps and the improvement over the standard globes is quite significant.
I have No idea what sort of light they produce, All I do know is that I can see significantly more and further down the road with the H7 globes.
As for lightbars, I had a little 22" unit bolted to the small grill under the bumper because I don't have a Bull bar fitted at the moment and it was the only place I could fit one without mucking about with various mounting options.
Even when the lightbar was fitted this low on the truck the improvement in the amount of road and sides of the road I could see was fantastic.
I get my ARB winch bar fitted next week and I will be adding 2x 9 inch 370w LED driving lightsand a 28 inch 420w light bar to it, I am not that concerned with what "colour" the light is as long as I can see ALL the road and more importantly what livestock/wildlife is on it I will be a happy camper.
The argument that the halogen lights are easier on the eyes is probably a valid one But the LED options are Way tougher and far more reliable, This is probably why most trailers, vans and trucks use led's for their tail lights.

Vern

11th April 2017, 07:53 PM

FYRLYT Driving Lights superior to any HID or LED regardless of price. (http://www.fyrlyt.com/ama)

PAT303

11th April 2017, 07:58 PM

The biggest baddest headlights are pointless when your on the side of the road with a burnt out switch.Do the loom first,worry about lights later. Pat

AK83

11th April 2017, 08:09 PM

FYRLYT Driving Lights superior to any HID or LED regardless of price. (http://www.fyrlyt.com/ama)

OTOH!

avoid daylight hours at all costs due to the presence of this so called harmful blue light! :p
(https://www.comsol.com/blogs/calculating-the-emission-spectra-from-common-light-sources/)

Vern

11th April 2017, 08:16 PM

OTOH!

avoid daylight hours at all costs due to the presence of this so called harmful blue light! [emoji14]
(https://www.comsol.com/blogs/calculating-the-emission-spectra-from-common-light-sources/)
Read any customer reviews?

trout1105

11th April 2017, 08:56 PM

Read any customer reviews?

From what I have read the Fyrlt's are indeed good units But I personally find it hard to justify forking out about a grand for a set of spotties that an errant stone could destroy in a heartbeat or the globe could rattle itself to death on corrugations in the middle of nowhere.
I only drive at night and if I absolutely have to But when I do I want to be able to rely on whatever lighting that I have installed to function 100% and the LED options available are pretty much "Bullet Proof".
If you make sure that your wiring is well fitted/good quality and you put a relay on each of the individual lights the LED's wont let you down even If they have been hit with the odd stone here and there.[bigwhistle]

filcar

11th April 2017, 08:58 PM

FYRLYT Driving Lights superior to any HID or LED regardless of price. (http://www.fyrlyt.com/ama)

times 20

weeds

11th April 2017, 09:04 PM

From what I have read the Fyrlt's are indeed good units But I personally find it hard to justify forking out about a grand for a set of spotties that an errant stone could destroy in a heartbeat or the globe could rattle itself to death on corrugations in the middle of nowhere.
I only drive at night and if I absolutely have to But when I do I want to be able to rely on whatever lighting that I have installed to function 100% and the LED options available are pretty much "Bullet Proof".
If you make sure that your wiring is well fitted/good quality and you put a relay on each of the individual lights the LED's wont let you down even If they have been hit with the odd stone here and there.[bigwhistle]

I run FYRLYT 5000 on three work utes and a set waiting to go on the defender @ $500 a set...I agree extremely hard to justify the price tag of the 9000's and their competitors

Ours have bounced around mine site and bulbs haven't fell out....we did experience the bad batch of lenses but were replaced.

karlz

11th April 2017, 09:57 PM

From what I have read the Fyrlt's are indeed good units But I personally find it hard to justify forking out about a grand for a set of spotties that an errant stone could destroy in a heartbeat or the globe could rattle itself to death on corrugations in the middle of nowhere.
I only drive at night and if I absolutely have to But when I do I want to be able to rely on whatever lighting that I have installed to function 100% and the LED options available are pretty much "Bullet Proof".
If you make sure that your wiring is well fitted/good quality and you put a relay on each of the individual lights the LED's wont let you down even If they have been hit with the odd stone here and there.[bigwhistle]

I paid $594 from marks 4wd for the Fyrlts 5000.
They have been in the car since 22/01/2016 and although they have not been used that often, they are still working.
The Headlights H4 though have failed several times, i.e the bulbs failed. Im an old bastard but Ive only ever seen one headlight be destoyed by a stone.

trout1105

11th April 2017, 10:46 PM

I have driven thousands of K's on the dirt roads/tracks in the Pilbara and the Goldfields and busted windscreens and spotlight lenses are Not that uncommon especially on the roads that are also used by road trains and other big rigs.
I have also had light failures due to the really nasty corrugations many of these types of roads have.
Even if you pull up and let the trucks pass by there is still a chance of a stone strike, It's just part and parcel of travelling these roads unfortunately.
The vehicles that were fitted with the LED spotlights did suffer stone strikes However the lights still functioned perfectly, The Standard halogen types that took a hit were rendered useless.
It is just a personal preference But I prefer the LED options Not because I think that they are a Better light or more powerful than the Fyrlt's, I simply consider that the LED lights are a far more robust and reliable option for remote operation.

AK83

12th April 2017, 09:56 PM

Just to be clear here:
I have no personal opinion, positive or negative of the fyrlyts!
My position on their ability or effectiveness is totally neutral.

The points I'm trying to get across here is the misinformation as to what constitutes marketing garbage and science fact.

another piece of critical substandard marketing misinformation masquearding as scientific fact they have on their website, linked to earlier in this thread is the AM report on the health effects on humans from these blue light LEDs.

More illuminating (pun intended) is the response to the AMA report in pdf form:

LRC response to AMA report on the effects of blue light on human vision (http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/resources/newsroom/AMA.pdf)

a couple of very important points were made, for those that cant' be bothered to read it.

Summary: Predictions of health consequences from light exposure depend upon an accurate characterization of the physical stimulus as well as the biological response to that stimulus. Without fully defining both the stimulus and the response, nothing meaningful can be stated about the health effects of any light source.

ie. if the effects of blue light from LED sources is harmful, then so it should be from daylight sources .. so we need to avoid daylight more so than the much lower power levels of LED street lights!

Summary: Notwithstanding certain sub‐populations that deserve special attention, blue light hazard from In‐Ga‐N LEDs is probably not a concern to the majority of the population in most lighting applications due to human’s natural photophobic response.

ie. if you see a very bright point light source, you don't stare at it for 10 seconds! The reference to sub populations they made there were to infants who may be prone to staring at bright lights.

Summary: In‐Ga‐N LED sources dominated by short wavelengths have greater potential for suppressing the hormone melatonin at
night than sodium ‐ based sources commonly used outdoors. However, the amount and the duration of exposure need to be specified before it can be stated that In‐Ga‐N LED sources affect melatonin suppression at night.

My first thought re that AMA report. How many folks are out and about 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for their entire lives! the report is basically bunk on that premise alone.
If your out and about getting your daily 12 hour blue light exposure, then the chances that your out and about to receive another 12 hours of blue light during the night is very slim to nothing at all.

Summary: Until more is known about the effects of long ‐ wavelength light exposure (amount, spectrum, duration) on circadian disruption, it is inappropriate to single out short ‐ wavelength radiation from In‐Ga‐N LED sources as a causative factor in modern maladies.

My thoughts exactly!

Don't confuse marketing misinformation as science fact!

My avoidance of the brand stems only from the above point. I guess this stems from a serious distrust of marketing gurus (from years back when I a friend of mine was one!) :D
If it just so happens that they're using this marketing material in the manner that they do because don't really understand the implications of what they're doing, they could be forgiven .. but you'd at least expect that they'd outsource that job to someone who would have a subjective idea on the topic.

Vern

12th April 2017, 10:22 PM

Sorry but I get lost in your posts. From my understanding and what i learnt at trade school, it's not the type of light that strains the eyes, it's the colour spectrum.
Now from the hundreds of thousands of lights i habe installed, in offices, houses, shopping centres, we always gets complaints of eye strain when we have installed 6500kelvin lights (daylight). So across the board we would never install anything higher than 5000k.
From what i know, all led driving lights are 6-6500k, and i know when i turn mine on its bloody horrible, horrible colour, and heaps of glare.
Halogen though is closer to true daylight (4500-5000k), much easier on the eye.

Now i haveno affiliation with fyrlyt, but if you go on there facebook page and read tue reviews from customers, actual posts by the people that bought them, not marketing stuff, you will find that every single person is rapt with them and most have gone from high end led to these. Also a lot a from this forum.

Also, what kelvin are street lights?

AK83

12th April 2017, 11:22 PM

...
Halogen though is closer to true daylight (4500-5000k), much easier on the eye.

....

I'm not 100% sure where you get your info, but:

Wiki on the colour of light (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature)

The Sun closely approximates a black-body radiator. The effective temperature, defined by the total radiative power per square unit, is about 5780 K.[6] The color temperature of sunlight above the atmosphere is about 5900 K.

4500-5000 is a far cry from 5780K ... wouldn't you say.

What you're probably confusing the colour of daylight being 4500-5000K could be the notion that they use to use a standard daylight balanced film value of about 5500K, some used to use 5200K and other's used to use 5000K.

You have to ask yourself, what do you mean my daylight colour?
No such thing exists.
Daylight colour isn't the same everywhere, nor is it the same for the duration of the day.
Blue - hour, golden - hour, midday .. then you need to take into account latitude as well.

There is no one set standard for the colour of daylight.

that value of 5780K is an average.

I think many people are confused about what's actually easier on the eye.
There's a difference between easy on the eye and a subjective preference.

Many people prefer warmer light. I do too. It's much easier on the eye ... except when you have to do something critical, or detailed.

An analogy would be:
Do you prefer a glorious golden sunset, or the harsh reality of an oppressive midday sun?
10 or of 10 people will prefer the sunset light colour. It's warm, gives a feeling of warmth, makes them feel good, etc.

But give them white cotton to thread through a fine needle at sunset, and watch how unsuccessful they all are at it.
Give them the same cotton and needle at midday though, and it's much easier.

This harsh blue light makes for better acuity when it comes to discernign greater detail.
Harsh light = better detail rendering.
You may not like it(and neither do I), but it's the way light works, shorter wavelengths allow better rendering of fine detail .. ie contrast.
I prefer the warm and good feeling that warm light gives us too. But when i want to see stuff, I much prefer hard white light.

How do I know this. Easy. The hundred or so light bulbs I'vbe installed over the past 20-30 years is nowhere as many light bulbs as you may have, I have recommended to my sister to get some bright harsh midday sun coloured(ie. about 6000K) LEDs in her button shop.
(she owns a button shop, haberdashery, cotton bits and pieces shop, and she does some alterations and stuff like that)

She hates harsh light. Most rooms in my house have 6000K LEDs(except one or two less critical rooms, but that will change one day too) .. she hates my house because of that.
But in her back room, at her shop .. she loves them!
They help her thread those fine needles much better than the warm lights she used to use.
Look into any commercial kitchen, in the prep area they mainly use fluoros or maybe LEDs now. They may use incandescent or halogen lights at the servery table.
Different horses for different purposes.
Kitchen needs detail, for work, bright harsh light will do it every time.
servery needs pleasantness, warm, cosy .. make the customer feel good about the environment type lighting(aka... just like the sunset example earlier).

ps. don't read my posts if you can't stand them, but at least read the science in the wiki links I posted.

pps. quote from the wiki on the colour of daylight:
Daylight has a spectrum similar to that of a black body with a correlated color temperature of 6500 K (D65 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_Standard_Illuminant_D65) viewing standard)

timax

12th April 2017, 11:51 PM

Hmmm , well i think you are going to find that health care professionals from Opthalmologist's to The Cancer Council are going to recommend you wear sunglasses in sunlight to filter the ultraviolet rays ,perhaps they are all wrong.
Your reference to the glare of street signs has nothing to do with colour temp. Your refering to reflect light which is more to do with Lux or
The blue end of the spectrum is glarey because it has a shorter wavelength. The light scatters more the shorter the wavelength.Because it scatters it can make details blurry. This is why the film industry use UV filters especially at higher altitudes. Filtering the UV and blue slightly will sharpen the image.
You also dont agree that CRI plays a role in auto lighting. If you can see though that the higher the CRI or colour depth then the more subtleties in the colour of a scene you will see. This may be the difference in noticing a kangaroo against a background or not. Splitting hairs here but the more small improvements in the right direction can add up to something worth having.
And on 6500k being daylight. Well yes it is an average but the sun is more like 5400. Most would agree 6500 is blue not white. Philips auto bulbs are rated about as good as it gets. What col temp are those? I would think they would be able to make any colour they wanted.
Also you missed my point on the yellow glasses sold for low light conditions. The fact that so many optics manufacturers offer them and that they are recommended for those who spend all day at a computer screen to reduce blue light eye strain would suggest that there is more to it.
Personally i feel that any colour glasses at night will decrease the amount of light getting into my eye and reduce what i can see. BUT.....i received some light yellow lenses free with some cycling glasses and i could see more. I know it just comes down to an increase in contrast but my vision did seem better. This was in the city not out in the bush and i havnt used them since either.
Would love to set up a rig with one housing and several bulbs to try.Most tests i see like this are let down by questionable camera settings. I have a colour temp meter and a lux meter plus the good camera,who has some bulbs and a kangaroo?

timax

13th April 2017, 12:02 AM

This harsh blue light makes for better acuity when it comes to discernign greater detail.
Harsh light = better detail rendering.

:Sorry i missed your last post.
I totally disagree when you use the word "blue" in the above.
White , sure but not blue because of the short wavelength . Short wavelength light scatters and is therefore not as sharp as a longer wavelength.Are we off topic yet?? [bigwhistle]

AK83

13th April 2017, 12:13 AM

Sorry i missed your last post.
I totally disagree when you use the word "blue" in the above.
White , sure but not blue because of the short wavelength . Short wavelength light scatters and is therefore not as sharp as a longer wavelength. Are we off topic yet?? [bigwhistle]

Wayyy off.

But, it's a well known fact that the shorter wavelength allows finer detail to be captured/rendered or imaged.
OK, so this is in photographic terms, and more specifically under UV lighting .. but the theory still holds for viewing as well.

reading stuff is always easier under harsher light than it is under warmer, more complimentary lighting.
As your eyesight starts to fail(but hasn't failed completely, as mine is currently undergoing) this effect is clearly to see(yet again, pun intended).

actually, while we're off topic, the other side of halogen lights that seems to go totally under the radar is the effect of IR they cause on our eyes.
IR light is as dangerous to human eyes as is UV light, and it's one of those wavelengths we can see.

maybe the AMA should do a case study on the effects of halogen headlights on long haul truck drivers eye sight.