WHO ARE OUR REAL ENEMIES?

[Eevo]

i dont agree with the author, but it was well written.


In the small hours of April 26 , 1915, a collection of British military brass held a frantic conference in the regal dining saloon of the 'Queen Elizabeth' moored a mile off Cape Hellas, Turkey. The first day of the Gallipoli landings had not gone well. 4000 casualties (one quarter of the total put ashore) , few reserves available, Turkish reinforcements pouring in to the heights above, the surviving Anzacs clinging to cliff faces on what was one of the worst battle sites in military history . What was to be done?(The troop ships had drifted a mile west of the intended landing site, but in the spirit of Spion Kopf and the Light Brigade, the embarkation had gone ahead anyway.)
C-in-C Sir Iain Hamilton was told it would take at least three days to evacuate the survivors. The other officers (Major General Braithwaite, Admiral de Bobeck, Rear-Admiral Thursby, Commodore Roger Keyes) exchanged horrified glances. To abandon the war's largest operation after only one day would mean career suicide: no promotions, no knighthoods, no seat in the House of Lords. Hamilton persisted, addressing de Robeck.
"Tell me, Admiral, what do you think?"
"What do I think? Well, I think myself that they will stick it out if only it is put to them that they must."
And that was that. Of all the millions of words I've read & heard about the Great War, these are the words that still fill me with horror. Nine months later when the troops were taken off & the Dardanelles campaign abandoned, 43,921 Allied soldiers were dead, 97,112 had been wounded. Not a single one of these casualties served any military purpose, and most of them could have prevented.
Anzac Day breaks my heart every year. I grieve for the lives thrown away, for the lies our rulers told us then, for the lies they're still telling us.
It sickens me to hear politicians & media hacks spouting the same filthy platitudes. 'They laid down their lives for their country' - ''Gallipoli was the birth of our nation' - 'They fought to defend our freedoms' - and so on. None of them is even remotely true.
World War One was a squabble between two inbred European monarchs (who happened to be cousins) over who should control the income from various profitable colonies in Asia & Africa. It had nothing to with Australia. The Australian soldier's natural enemy was not the Turk or the Hun, just as later generations of soldiers had no real reason to hate the Vietcong or the Republican Guard. Our real enemies are the generals giving the orders, the politicians telling the generals what they want, the vast shadowy financial empires pulling the politicians' strings.
The first marches I witnessed, back in the '60s, contained lines of elderly WWI Diggers wearing baggy suits, medals, and grim expressions. They filled me with an unnameable sadness. These days Anzac ceremonies fill me with anger. They are the playthings of self-promotion & profit. The worst day in Australia's history has been turned into a ratings bonanza.
Year after year the band plays Waltzing Matilda and we all dutifully gaze in the wrong direction. Will it never end?

[DiscoMick]

Certainly the campaign was a monumental failure, as we're many other battles, but I think Anzac Day is now more about honouring those who served.

[Pickles2]

I don't agree either.
A very simplistic view, picking out some stuff, & ignoring so much more.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

i think its main failure is that it ignores that australia was part of the empire and everyone was a volunteer.

[cuppabillytea]

The truth is not complicated, but It's often almost impossible to find.

Gallipoli was Australia's Baptism of Fire. It was also the dawning of a realisation that the Land and it's People were of no importance to the rulers of Britain, other than what could be exploited. The dawning of a realisation that we had grown up and we where on our own.

To me ANZAC Day is a Day is a day to honour and show our gratitude to all who serve, and to mourn and thank the fallen.

It is also a good time to contemplate conflict in all its forms.

[DiscoMick]

Yes I think of my uncle, who served in PNG, but was never the same again and became an alcoholic because he couldn't cope with his memories.

If Whitlam hadn't ended conscription in December 1972 my birthdate might have been in the ballot for Vietnam the next year, so that's a sobering thought. I certainly respect those who went when called up.

[NavyDiver]

I do not march for glorification of war but for my mates and all before us. War is not glory and ANZAC day is not a celebration. It is a show of respect for those who are dead or injured due to their service and their families who suffered often even when people return from wars with invisible wounds.

Yes some drink to much and retell yarns we do not share outside our mates. Chatting with a old digger yesterday who was crying his heart out put more than a few tears in my crews eyes. He was alone this year for the first time.

Lots of our history has been a military disaster or very close to it and yes often due to arrogant and stupid politicians who played with young lives as if it is game of cards. Incompetent Poms have killed a lot of us in the past. Part of the yarn above is true. Read this one if you doubt poms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Forbes-Sempill,_19th_Lord_Sempill) are often stupid. They covered up for a traitor as he was part of the 'establishment'. Churchill tried to sack him but backed down.

Lest We Forget is to me never make the same mistakes again.

[JDNSW]

As the above posters have pointed out, Anzac Day is not about Gallipoli - that is just the action that supplied the date, as it was the first major action involving Australia as a nation. It is about those who have served, and often given their all for us as a nation, and for that matter, those still serving.

Having said that, and referring to the quote in the first post, what is often confused is "learning from experience" and "finding a scapegoat". Further, looking back over a hundred years and second guessing decisions made under pressure and with limited information is not likely to get a useful result.

Like, for example, an aviation accident, the Gallipoli disaster did not have a single cause, but was the end result of a long series of actions and circumstances. The same applies of course to the whole WW1 disaster. Germany started their invasion of France and Belgium with visions of a repeat of 1870, and reasonably certain that Britain would stay out of it. But Britain could not see the Prussian Empire expanded to include France, and with its navy and empire behind it (and they were - all Australians at Gallipoli were volunteers) they were convinced, as was Wilhelm, that it would be "over before Christmas". What none of them had done was taken to heart the details of the American Civil War, which was, in many respects, a foretaste of the Great War, with industrial might supplying technically advanced armies, leading in many places to stalemate, as happened on the Western Front, as well as producing battlefield casualties on an unprecedented scale.

The Ottoman Empire entered the war on the German side mainly because they thought it would be the winning side, but also because of the British (understandably in the circumstances) cancelling the delivery of a battleship they had ordered (and they thought this would be an opportunity to reclaim Egypt). The Ottomans were thought in Europe to be disorganised and thoroughly corrupt, with little chance of standing up to a western army, and this attitude informed the Gallipoli venture. But not only were they more capable than expected, but they fought fiercely when on home soil. The earlier judgement of them was perhaps seen to show in some of the actions in the later Palestine campaign, which moved from one disaster to another for the Ottomans.

[Pickles2]

Thank You John for the FACTS, not someones politically biased "öpinion" to which they are obviously entitled, but which is totally irrelevant, and inadmissable as far as I'm aware, unless in C.A.
Pickles.

[Homestar]

This is an interesting topic and I'd hate for the thread to be deleted because the rules aren't being followed. That means NO POLITICS - even if they are decades old. Peoples opinions on the Government or people in power at the time should not be discussed - it can be separated from the OP, please ensure it stays that way.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

[Gordie]

"Keith Murdochs Letter", which aired on ABC lastnight, or was it SBS, one or the other, sheds pretty good light on it all.

[DeanoH]

i dont agree with the author, but it was well written.


Maybe so Eevo, but an unattributed 'quote' is just meaningless bull**** as it could just as easily be an emotive politically correct/incorrect trolling bunch of made up words posted to get an emotional response.:thumbsdown:

Who is the mystery author ?

Deano :)

[Eevo]

Maybe so Eevo, but an unattributed 'quote' is just meaningless bull**** as it could just as easily be an emotive politically correct/incorrect trolling bunch of made up words posted to get an emotional response.:thumbsdown:

Who is the mystery author ?

Deano :)


why is it meaningless bull**** if it doesnt have a name?

Dan Moody wrote the article.

[DeanoH]

why is it meaningless bull**** if it doesnt have a name?

Dan Moody wrote the article.

Because it's nice to know if the author has any idea what he's writing about!


Unsubstantiated assertions and conclusions delivered in an emotive manner isn't usually the Hallmark of a serious researcher or historian and appears to have little (if any) credibility factually.

What you have quoted appears to be a 'heart wringing' fairy story penned by an unknown author quoting unknown sources and reaching unjustified or substantiated conclusions.

Basically meaningless literary and psuedo historical crap !

I haven't decided if this Dan Moody is a US senator, a B grade movie actor, an Australian 'data manager' or FIFO worker. Certainly no one with any recognised historical or research credibility that I can find.

Deano :)

[Sitec]

Who are our real enemy's...? The answer to that is simple. Us. We as humans have an uncanny knack of fighting, being unable to get along, and generally making an arse of many things we are given. Wars, pollution, greed, life... I'll leave you with that thought....

[Eevo]

Because it's nice to know if the author has any idea what he's writing about!


Unsubstantiated assertions and conclusions delivered in an emotive manner isn't usually the Hallmark of a serious researcher or historian and appears to have little (if any) credibility factually.

What you have quoted appears to be a 'heart wringing' fairy story penned by an unknown author quoting unknown sources and reaching unjustified or substantiated conclusions.

Basically meaningless literary and psuedo historical crap !

I haven't decided if this Dan Moody is a US senator, a B grade movie actor, an Australian 'data manager' or FIFO worker. Certainly no one with any recognised historical or research credibility that I can find.

Deano :)


i guess a phd doesnt count for much.

[donh54]

i guess a phd doesnt count for much.
I haven't met very many people with a PhD who had any inkling of real life and/or produced anything other than meaningless reams of paper that no-one except their peers will ever read, other than empty-headed political types looking for a way to ingratiate themselves with followers of a particular cause.

[trout1105]

Although very one sided the piece IS well written and does contain some elements of truth.
Regardless of if you agree or not with what has been written, It does give you cause to think about exactly why we are prepared to sacrifice the lives of our Nations children in the various conflicts that we have chosen to send our youth to.

[Eevo]

I haven't met very many people with a PhD who had any inkling of real life and/or produced anything other than meaningless reams of paper that no-one except their peers will ever read, other than empty-headed political types looking for a way to ingratiate themselves with followers of a particular cause.


then you need to get out more.

[cuppabillytea]

None of us has any enemies from a century ago.

What we can do is look at the historical facts and determine how we can avoid falling into the same traps.

If you're talking about Them and Us. The entity that was Them a century ago, no longer exists. They are all different people and evolved Cultures and so are we.

Recriminations are utterly pointless.

[bob10]

You can not separate the politics from Anzac Day. From the first in 1916, until now, all forms of government have used the emotion of the day to promote their own agenda.

"It has always been political,” says Dr Martin Crotty, an historian at the University of Queensland. Anzac commemorations have “suited political purposes right from 1916 when the first Anzac Day march was held in London and Australia, which were very much around trying to get more people to sign up to the war in 1916-1918,” he says."

The evolution of Anzac Day from 1915 until today - Australian Geographic (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/redirect-to/'redirect=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.australiangeographic.co m.au%2Fblogs%2Fon-this-day%2F2017%2F04%2Fevolution-of-anzac-day%3Futm_source%3Dexacttarget%26utm_medium%3Demai l%26utm_campaign%3D66659%26utm_content%3D614485%26 user_id%3D85077cfb52eb212266d4b3ae4b06065806904db3 )

[Pickles2]

Well I believe one certainly can separate the two.
Anzac Day to me, is about celebrating & remembering, the LIVES OF THE AUSSIE DIGGERS, the brave soldiers who fought For their Country,..they weren't involved in Politics, they were in the trenches, showing extraordinary bravery, going "over the top", involved in all the horror, filth, bloodshed, gore, that is War,....and above all, in the most horrific conditions, demonstrating extraordinary "MATESHIP"/looking after your mates, in so many instances sacrificing their lives to do so. Those are the people I "remember" on Anzac Day, and also I remember the many many families who never saw their sons again!
So that's what I think about on Anzac Day. There are "Politics" involved in all Wars, and that is not what Anzac day is about, not to me anyway.
Pickles.

[Eevo]

There are "Politics" involved in all Wars, and that is not what Anzac day is about, not to me anyway.


you cant have one without the other.

"War is a mere continuation of politics by other means"

[bob10]

I think the last word should go to Wilfred Owen, the great WW1 poet.

Dulce Et Decorum Est by Wilfred Owen: Read by Christopher Eccleston | Remembering World War 1 | C4 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/qB4cdRgIcB8)

[trout1105]

I think the last word should go to Wilfred Owen, the great WW1 poet.

Agreed

[DiscoMick]

Well I believe one certainly can separate the two.
Anzac Day to me, is about celebrating & remembering, the LIVES OF THE AUSSIE DIGGERS, the brave soldiers who fought For their Country,..they weren't involved in Politics, they were in the trenches, showing extraordinary bravery, going "over the top", involved in all the horror, filth, bloodshed, gore, that is War,....and above all, in the most horrific conditions, demonstrating extraordinary "MATESHIP"/looking after your mates, in so many instances sacrificing their lives to do so. Those are the people I "remember" on Anzac Day, and also I remember the many many families who never saw their sons again!
So that's what I think about on Anzac Day. There are "Politics" involved in all Wars, and that is not what Anzac day is about, not to me anyway.
Pickles.

I totally agree.
On ANZAC Day we should all shut up and respect their courage and sacrifice, as long as we remember ALL who showed courage and sacrificed and don't get selective about it.

[Pickles2]

Thanks Disco.
Pickles

[bob10]

I totally agree.
On ANZAC Day we should all shut up and respect their courage and sacrifice, as long as we remember ALL who showed courage and sacrificed and don't get selective about it.

Perhaps Kipling should have the last word. I had my Great Grandfather and Grandfather both fight in WW1, Great Grandfather landed with the 9th battalion at 0430 on the beach at Gallipoli, in 1916 the 9th Battalion was split into the 9th and 49th Battalions. Great G.D. moved to the 49th, my G.D. was part of the 2nd reinforcements to the 49th. The 49th fought in almost every major battle the Aussies were in on the Western Front. They both made it back home, although wounded and gassed. Like any soldier who fought , if you were to call them heroes, they would dismiss it with a scornful look. Only two things really mattered, look after your mates, and never forget the utter futility of War. To me , if Anzac Day no longer existed, it would mean there had been no more wars. no more soldiers to march. That would be a good thing.

"Tommy" by Rudyard Kipling - YouTube (https://youtu.be/wZtRaZU8AkI)

[DiscoMick]

My uncle was in PNG. He was never the same, according to the family. Became an alcoholic. No glory of war there.

[bob10]

Cut your Uncle some slack. Kokoda was more important to Australia than Gallipoli. And at Kokoda, the Aussies were outnumbered, and not supported well. The one constant was the incompetence of the Generals, thousands of miles from the action. Oh , my answer to the question is, the enemy is ourselves.

"Kokoda" Part1 The Invasion - YouTube (https://youtu.be/88oSK9YJcfY)

[AndyG]

Btw 22 june is 75th anniversary of the sinking of the Montevideo Maru where we lost 1054
As she sank those who were in the water sang Auld lang syne to their lost comrades.
To me that epitomises the ANZAC spirit

Lest we forget.

[bob10]

The fight back.

"Kokoda" Part 2 Counterattack - YouTube (https://youtu.be/d6fenruyBQg)

[DiscoMick]

Cut your Uncle some slack. Kokoda was more important to Australia than Gallipoli. And at Kokoda, the Aussies were outnumbered, and not supported well. The one constant was the incompetence of the Generals, thousands of miles from the action. Oh , my answer to the question is, the enemy is ourselves.

"Kokoda" Part1 The Invasion - YouTube (https://youtu.be/88oSK9YJcfY)
Yes I totally agree that Kokoda and the Coral Sea battle were the biggies for us, bigger than Gallipoli. I remember Keating saying that and some people tutted, but he was right.
My uncle was treated very sympathetically by the family until he died in his 60s.

[Eevo]

could argue that tobruk had more of an impact.
the first time the germans were stopped during the war

[DiscoMick]

Milne Bay was the first time that Japanese were stopped.
The 39th Militia on Kokoda were amazing, but were failed by their HQ, particularly Blamey and MacArthur, who did not reinforce them until it was too late.

[Eevo]

Milne Bay was the first time that Japanese were stopped.

thats a very fair and accurate point i had overlooked

[DiscoMick]

That Kokoda documentary was excellent. Thanks Bob10 for the links. Every Aussie should watch it. I'm definitely going to read the book.

[JDNSW]

Milne Bay was the first time that Japanese were stopped.
The 39th Militia on Kokoda were amazing, but were failed by their HQ, particularly Blamey and MacArthur, who did not reinforce them until it was too late.

My late father in law (RAEME, retired about 1950 as Lt Col) had a few choice words to say about Blamey - he was removed from PNG after refusing to put his signature to some falsehoods required by Blamey. Spent the rest of the war in non-combat roles, mainly London (Bailey Bridge), Washington (Embassy), followed by several years in occupied Japan.

[ramblingboy42]

Vietnam - The Australian War , by Paul Ham is a very good book not only to fully enlighten you about the war in Vietnam , but also to let you know who your enemies often are.

[bob10]

x 2 0n Paul Ham's book. Well researched, well written. Sometimes the enemy is closer to home than you think. edit- Read his book on Kokoda, a classic.

[bob10]

Milne Bay, a short story. The Qld battalions were there.

Milne Bay - Battle for Australia - YouTube (https://youtu.be/qRbVppxXs2k)

[DiscoMick]

Was certainly clear that it was the Aussies, such as the inexperienced 39th Militia and others, who did the really nasty stuff to hold the Japanese. At one stage just 80 exhausted and starving 39th were delaying 5000 Japanese troops who were ably led and battle-hardened after China.
When MacArthur eventually sent in some Yanks, after the Aussies had driven the Japs back to Buna at huge cost to both sides, the Americans were a disaster, with many retreating or fleeing into the jungle at the first opposition. Blamey said he didn't want any more Yanks and instead wanted Aussies who would fight, not run.
The campaign was very poorly led by Blamey and MacArthur, but the commanders on the ground did miracles and got little reward for their exploits.
Clearly, it was the Kokoda campaign which saved Australia from falling like the rest of Asia. I think that makes Kokoda far more important than Gallipoli for Australia, not meaning to take anything away from what our troops did there, but saving your own country from invasion comes top, I think.

[DiscoMick]

I just ordered the paperback of Kokoda by Paul Ham for $26 plus postage from Booktopia. In stock and ships in only two days. The DVDs are also available from ABC books.

[NavyDiver]

I just ordered the paperback of Kokoda by Paul Ham for $26 plus postage from Booktopia. In stock and ships in only two days. The DVDs are also available from ABC books.

Going there for Anzac day 2018 with ten of my crew. 12 day hike and no Disco to drive[biggrin]

[JDNSW]

While the terrain of Kokoda affected both the Australians and Japs, it was a worse problem for the Japs - they were trying to advance, and every step forward made their supply situation worse, whereas every step of retreat improved the Australian supply situation. Of course, then the situation was reversed when Australia started to push back the Japs.

Looked at objectively though, despite their experience elsewhere, the Japs did not know what they were getting into at Kokoda, and given even modest resistance (which was all the militia could offer initially) there was little hope of it succeeding. Once significant reinforcements arrived, taking Port Moresby via Kokoda was virtually impossible. On the other hand, if they had won the battle of the Coral Sea, it would not have mattered what happened at Kokoda.

Certainly, the campaign was poorly led by Blamey and Macarthur from the Allied side, but although the Jap soldiers were experience and skilled, the basic concept of attacking Port Moresby via Kokoda shows a similar level of incompetence on the other side. As an example , I seem to remember that the Japanese commander of the project led it on horseback. Can anyone who is familiar with that terrain envision trying to use and supply even a single horse in the area.

[Pickles2]

I don't know enough about the detailed Military "Tactics" relating to Kokoda as some on here, that's for sure, so I can't comment on that.
But it appears that there are some fairly good Military "Historians" on here who really are able to relate the FACTS, in a fairly simple manner so that an interested person like me can learn a little bit more about what really happened, rather than reading someone's "emotional opinion".
I am interested in Military history, I've read a lot of WW11 stuff, particularly about the 3rd Reich, political & military stuff.
My wife has actually trekked Kokoda,..2008 I think it was. She went with an organization named "Adventure Kokoda", a fairly high profile, very professional group led by ex-Military people, who, at the commencement of the trek, mentioned that they would be walking "In The Steps Of The Brave". They don't do the normal track, they do the "Battle Track", a longer trek, which visits important battle sites off the main track, because the battles were not always on the main track. She thought it was very special, a very special & unique experience, and she also enjoyed relating to the PNG people along the way.
I think the term she learned was "When you go home, tell them of us, tell them for their today, we gave our tomorrow".
No doubt, Kokoda occupies a very special place in Australia's history.
Pickles.

[bob10]

I just ordered the paperback of Kokoda by Paul Ham for $26 plus postage from Booktopia. In stock and ships in only two days. The DVDs are also available from ABC books.

Two books I recommend as compulsory reading would be " To the bitter end, the Japanese defeat at Buna and Gona, 1942-43" by LEX McAULAY, and Kokoda Wallaby , by Andrew James. The wallaby is Stan Bisset, and any one wanting to know the story of rugby in Aus. before the War , especially in Victoria, would do well to read this book. The author is a former Australian soldier, who served with the special forces in Afghanistan. After the army, Andrew continued his studies at Sydney Uni. Where he read History and English, and supported himself by working as an expedition leader on the Kokoda track. Those who don't know the story of Stan Bisset should know he was a member of the ill-fated 1939 Wallaby team to England.
Stan was one of Australias' most distinguished and heroic combatants , who personified so many Attributes of the Australian soldier. Stan's brother Butch died in his arms on the track, and at the end Stan sang their favourite family song, Danny Boy , to his dying brother. Tour groups used to gather in the clearing where Butch was shot and died, and sing Danny Boy in his memory. Not a dry eye in the house, I'm told. No less than John Eales, wrote " rugby is fortunate to have so many role models of the highest order. Stan Bisset is at the top of the game " I met the great man one Anzac Day, when I marched with my Father in Brisbane. A rare privilege, one I will always remember.

[DiscoMick]

I don't know enough about the detailed Military "Tactics" relating to Kokoda as some on here, that's for sure, so I can't comment on that.
But it appears that there are some fairly good Military "Historians" on here who really are able to relate the FACTS, in a fairly simple manner so that an interested person like me can learn a little bit more about what really happened, rather than reading someone's "emotional opinion".
I am interested in Military history, I've read a lot of WW11 stuff, particularly about the 3rd Reich, political & military stuff.
My wife has actually trekked Kokoda,..2008 I think it was. She went with an organization named "Adventure Kokoda", a fairly high profile, very professional group led by ex-Military people, who, at the commencement of the trek, mentioned that they would be walking "In The Steps Of The Brave". They don't do the normal track, they do the "Battle Track", a longer trek, which visits important battle sites off the main track, because the battles were not always on the main track. She thought it was very special, a very special & unique experience, and she also enjoyed relating to the PNG people along the way.
I think the term she learned was "When you go home, tell them of us, tell them for their today, we gave our tomorrow".
No doubt, Kokoda occupies a very special place in Australia's history.
Pickles.
Like you I don't know much, but I'm keen to learn more.

[Wraithe]

I am appalled by some comments and the lack of understanding about the history of dawn service... One thing you learn when you join any of the services, is the meaning of ANZAC day and dawn service...

Its not a celebration, not a day for the public or the government. Its the day that ex and serving members of the services involved in war, remember their mates...

"Dawn service originally started in Albany WA on Mt Clarence, when a Pastor and some mates that served in Galipoli, met up one early morning, after they had returned to Australia and at dawn they remembered their mates and said a prayer for them"...

The location over looks King George Sound and Bluff Knoll, the last land seen when the ships headed for the Middle East...

I have been hearing this new history about ANZAC day and Dawn service, changing over the last 20 or so years, and it seems to be played out as if this was the norm only one year after the Galipoli campaign, which it was not...

The day is for the services that protect this country, either by conscription or volunteering, it is not for the people or for the government, this is our day to remember our mates... It is not a celebration, it is not a parade of glory...

IT IS THE SAME AS A FUNERAL, RESPECT, MOURN AND REMEMBER!

If people come to pay there respects, then good, but to parade themselves as being a part of it, thats driving so many of us away from this day and we wont return. I may have had a grandfather that served in WW1 and WW2, also an Uncle that served in WW2, but that didnt give me the right to march or expect any recognition myself, I joined the Army and served this country, myself, that is my right, not my childrens or relatives, they can only show respect, that right to march is mine...

All very well thinking I am selfish, but I signed on the dotted line, I gave my right to life and became a "servent of the Crown" thus I am just a number now, as such, I acquired that right of being part of a select group that gave more to this country than a politician would ever do...

Those that gave the ultimate sacrifice deserve to be respected without glorifying that sacrifice..

ANZAC day is no longer what it use to be, protests, seperations, political speaches, non ADF people marching, services not connected to the ADF marching, balloons and celebrations... None of this has anything to do with the meaning of ANZAC day...

I stopped going to dawn service, when there where more civilians than service members... 20 members there, over a hundred civvies, no longer a day to remember, just another thing destroyed by those with no respect...

One last thing, people make an issue about remembering those that served, whether returned or not, on ANZAC day, but forget about us for the rest of the year... very convenient isn't it?

[DiscoMick]

Yes, you're right, it's 100 percent about respect. Lest. We. Forget.
Incidentally, I bought the DVD of The Water Diviner yesterday, Russell Crowe's movie which doesn't pull any punches about the reality of Gallipoli. I recommend it, if you haven't seen it.

[Pickles2]

Wraithe. THANK YOU VERY MUCH for your words, and for taking the time, and for stating what ANZAC DAY is really, or should be, about.
Best post in this thread, Pickles.

[bob10]

I am appalled by some comments and the lack of understanding about the history of dawn service... One thing you learn when you join any of the services, is the meaning of ANZAC day and dawn service...

Its not a celebration, not a day for the public or the government. Its the day that ex and serving members of the services involved in war, remember their mates...



One last thing, people make an issue about remembering those that served, whether returned or not, on ANZAC day, but forget about us for the rest of the year... very convenient isn't it?

I know where you are coming from, but do not agree with the sentiment. And I too, note the number of people turning Anzac Day into a circus. Two things. In November, is remembrance day. To remember all those who died in WW1, from all Nations . How many of the people who hang on the shirt tails of the Anzacs, ie bask in their glory, actually pay homage on that day. Second, how long before we have marching girls and American style marching bands on the day. I served for 21 years, Vietnam service, Great grandfather and Grandfather in WW1, Father in WW2 uncle in Korea [KIA MM], cousins in Malaya / Vietnam. I know what Anzac Day is about. It is not a funeral . It is about respect. Respect yourself.

[DiscoMick]

I was in London for Remembrance Day five years ago and attended the service in central London led by the Queen. They sure know how to do a solemn and respectful service. Definitely no marching girls.

[Wraithe]

This damn subject came up again today...

A senior service friend and I where discussing the history of Dawn service...

Now we may be wrong as I haven't done anything to confirm the dates and we are all suffering "Old Timers"...

1923 was the first Dawn service.. We are not sure but we think it spread nation wide within a couple of years of that date...

Can't remember the number of WW1 veterans at the first Dawn Service, it may have been only half a dozen or so...

Bob10, hope you don't mind, we discussed the issue of how to best describe the day, and I explained what I wrote, trying to get across to people the meaning of Anzac day... My friend said the same as you "not a funeral", so i got told off(damn foot in mouth), anyway we thought about this and yes remembrance but my friend said something else about explaining it to civvies and now I am suffering old timers again, cause I cant remember what he said...

Hopefully I remember tomorrow, because it was a perfect description for people to understand...

All those that thanked me, please don't... This is a subject about a day for those that are not here and those that still are... Their day needs remembering for what they gave this country, not I...

[bob10]

This damn subject came up again today...

A senior service friend and I where discussing the history of Dawn service...

Now we may be wrong as I haven't done anything to confirm the dates and we are all suffering "Old Timers"...

1923 was the first Dawn service.. We are not sure but we think it spread nation wide within a couple of years of that date...

Can't remember the number of WW1 veterans at the first Dawn Service, it may have been only half a dozen or so...

Bob10, hope you don't mind, we discussed the issue of how to best describe the day, and I explained what I wrote, trying to get across to people the meaning of Anzac day... My friend said the same as you "not a funeral", so i got told off(damn foot in mouth), anyway we thought about this and yes remembrance but my friend said something else about explaining it to civvies and now I am suffering old timers again, cause I cant remember what he said...

Hopefully I remember tomorrow, because it was a perfect description for people to understand...

All those that thanked me, please don't... This is a subject about a day for those that are not here and those that still are... Their day needs remembering for what they gave this country, not I...

It's all good , mate. The day means different things to different people. We are not all the same. As long as we remember.

[bob10]

The A.W.M.'s official take on Anzac Day. A wreath laying and requiem Mass was held at Albany in 1918, and a dawn ceremony held at Toowoomba the following year. Apparently dawn ceremonies were held unofficially all over the country, with the first official dawn service being recognised at Sydney cenotaph in 1927.

The Anzac Day tradition | Australian War Memorial (https://www.awm.gov.au/commemoration/anzac/anzac-tradition/)

[DiscoMick]

So my copy of 'Kokoda' by Paul Ham arrived and I've just started reading and what a great read it is.
One of the first points he makes was that our intelligence knew the Japanese were planning to move around and attack Port Moresby, but Macarthur scoffed at the idea they might make a land attack because of the terrible terrain and assumed they would come by sea, which was totally wrong.
Another point Ham makes is that, based on various senior Japanese sources, it is now known that Japan did not intend to invade Australia because the command believed it did not have the supply lines in place to support the large army required to successfully invade.
Instead, the Japanese aim was to use PNG and specifically Port Moresby as a base to block Australian sea routes and prevent the USA from using Australia as a base to support its campaign to win back The Philippines, which Macarthur had staked his career on recapturing, and other Japanese conquests in the Pacific.
Interesting.

[101RRS]

One of the first points he makes was that our intelligence knew the Japanese were planning to move around and attack Port Moresby, but Macarthur scoffed at the idea they might make a land attack because of the terrible terrain and assumed they would come by sea, which was totally wrong.


Well that is not correct - there was supposed to be a sea borne landing from the Coral Sea - it all came unstuck with the Battle of the Coral Sea that killed off the ability of the Japanese to mount a sea borne attack against Port Moresby - soon after the Japanese came across the Owen Stanley to attack Port Moresby from the north.

I agree the land attack might have been a surprise but the main thrust was always to come from the sea that the Battle of Coral Sea prevented.

[DiscoMick]

Well that is not correct - there was supposed to be a sea borne landing from the Coral Sea - it all came unstuck with the Battle of the Coral Sea that killed off the ability of the Japanese to mount a sea borne attack against Port Moresby - soon after the Japanese came across the Owen Stanley to attack Port Moresby from the north.

I agree the land attack might have been a surprise but the main thrust was always to come from the sea that the Battle of Coral Sea prevented.

Maybe. The Battle of the Coral Sea cost the Japanese one carrier and stopped that attempt at a major seaborne invasion of Port Moresby. The loss of four aircraft carriers in the Battle of Midway was another huge blow to their capabilities.

Coral Sea: Overview (http://www.ww2australia.gov.au/asfaras/coralsea.html)

However, did it make another seaborne invasion impossible? It was the Japanese carrier protection fleet, not the actual invasion fleet heading for Port Moresby, which was attacked in the Battle of the Coral Sea. Losing the protective carrier apparently caused the Japanese to halt the invasion fleet, but they still had plenty of ships and troops, at least until the much larger losses in the Midway battle. I guess the fact they instead decided to land troops to attempt a land invasion indicates they had thought better of a seaborne invasion.

Still, their base at Rabaul gave them a range of about 800 kilometres, which included both Port Moresby and Cairns. They still had enough ships and troops to land at Gona, where they intended to send in 10,000 troops, to start the advance along the Kokoda. If they had managed to send 10,000 by sea into Port Moresby it would have been hard to stop, particularly if they had continued their bombing of the Port Moresby airport, which knocked out a large number of Allied aircraft.

Also, the land force did reach the ridges overlooking Port Moresby, when the commander General Horii received an order to retreat, which bitterly disappointed him. If the order to retreat had been delayed by even a couple of days and they had continued they might have taken the Port Moresby airfield and there might not have been any Allied counterattack along the Kokoda.
Anyway, it's interesting. I'll keep reading.

I think it's clear that Kokoda was really more important to the fate of Australia than Gallipoli, heroic though it was.

Interesting timeline here:
The Kokoda Track | Australians in World War II | The Pacific War | About the Kokoda Track: 1942 and Today | A Kokoda Chronology (http://kokoda.commemoration.gov.au/about-the-kokoda-track/timeline.php)

[Wraithe]

The A.W.M.'s official take on Anzac Day. A wreath laying and requiem Mass was held at Albany in 1918, and a dawn ceremony held at Toowoomba the following year. Apparently dawn ceremonies were held unofficially all over the country, with the first official dawn service being recognised at Sydney cenotaph in 1927.

The Anzac Day tradition | Australian War Memorial (https://www.awm.gov.au/commemoration/anzac/anzac-tradition/)

Finally back online and clearing the old head.. (I hate research and paperwork, especially DVA crap)...

Anyway, sorry Bob, had to reply...

"Birthplace of the Australian Dawn Service Tradition

Arthur Ernest White served as an army chaplain with the 44th Battalion, enlisting in 1916. It is understood that in February 1918 Padre White celebrated a private Requiem Mass for the battle dead at St John’s Anglican Church in Albany.
At 6am on 25th April 1930, it is recorded in the church service register that Padre White celebrated a dawn Eucharist commemorating ANZAC Day. After wreaths were laid at the nearby war memorial it is believed that Padre White, with some of the congregation, proceeded up a bush track to the top of Mt Clarence where an observance took place of a boatman laying a wreath in King George’s Sound."

This is from the Albany Anzac site... Birthplace of the Australian Dawn Service Tradition | Anzac Albany (http://anzacalbany.com.au/discover-ww1-albany/albany-convoy-departure/) ...

As I said before, history has been altered in the last 20 years, its been disappointing to watch as I do enjoy history and what we can learn from it, but I like to live in the present... I don't enjoy seeing our history changed when it causes people from our past to be forgotten...


Anyway, I had an enjoyable time a week ago, standing around watching bon fires in the paddocks, nothing like 20 ft flames to keep one warm outdoors...

[Tins]

None of us has any enemies from a century ago.

What we can do is look at the historical facts and determine how we can avoid falling into the same traps.

If you're talking about Them and Us. The entity that was Them a century ago, no longer exists. They are all different people and evolved Cultures and so are we.

Recriminations are utterly pointless.

None of us has any enemies from a century ago.


Indeed. I recently spent a couple of weeks in Thailand, visiting some sites on the infamous Burma-Thai Railway, culminating in the Dawn Service at Hellfire Pass, and the 11:00 AM service at the Kancnanburi War Cemetery. My father in law gave the address. He was one of only two former POWs who was able to attend this year. He spent two and a half years in that particular hell, and then a further six months in the coal mines in Japan. He turned 95 yesterday.
He bears no animosity or ill will towards the Japanese, and in fact has a Japanese daughter in law, and two grandsons who are obviously half Japanese, who live in Tokyo.

His work at reconciliation between former POWs and their Japanese and Korean captors got him an OAM.

All I'll say is, if HE can forgive, so should we.