Puma starter removal - 2.4

[skidrov]

Well for the first time in 3 years of ownership, we failed to proceed - home on a tray truck [bawl] . Ahh the ignominy of it all.

I suspect my starter has died - MY10 2.4 110. I can roll-start but no cranking - it drives fine when it's running.

I have yet to run some diagnostics (i.e. confirm power to the solenoid, etc.) but assuming it IS the starter that's dead:

- How hard is it to remove? Have read some articles that say it's yet another contortionist job, is there any more to it than that? Is it "simply" [tonguewink] removing the solenoid/main cables, and then the two retainer bolts, or are there other bits to remove to make room?
- Again assuming it's the starter: has anyone found a good source for replacements? Transit alternatives? And/or people with them on-shelf - preferably in Melbourne?

As always, my thanks in advance to the collective wisdom of the forum :TakeABow:

[Toxic_Avenger]

Quick check-
The starter motor has a 500A Mega Fuse built into the factory Positive (red) connection block on the battery terminals. Check it's not blown. The main fuse block connects to the battery before this fuse so it's possible to have dash lights, and many other functions (I presume!) with this fuse blown.

As for replacement, never done it. They are usually just a case of disconnecting battery, a harness and a cable connector on the back, and a couple of bolts.
For the puma, it's on the Rear LHS of the engine block. It has 2 bolts securing it to the block. All other accounts that I've read of it is that it's fairly well sealed for water ingress, so a complete failure to chooch should be looked at with the entire picture in mind.
The starter solenoid / starter relay also come into play, being the low current side of the operation, so as always, things like alarm sstems, and that specific circuit will influence its operation.

FSM troubleshooting guide for the starter is below:
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/05/504.jpg

[skidrov]

OK, did a bit more checking before I lost daylight.

The battery seems fine - when the RACV first attended, they ran one of their big test meters over it and reported it as having a clean bill of health - and, it is barely 12 months old. I can also measure good voltage (12.5V, car not running) at the high-ampage +ve feed to the starter. So, the mega fuse should be OK but I will check.

I then ran a test lead to the solenoid +ve feed (quite a challenge in its own right - that starter is buried...). It shows 0V without turning the key to "crank" (as you'd expect) and then about 10V when turned to "crank" - low, I think? So, that makes me think that:

1. The solenoid and/or starter is fried and shorting somewhere, or
2. the starter relay (under the seat, see snip from manual) is not delivering proper voltage - faulty.

123268

The thing I didn't mention earlier is that I had a few occasions in the last couple of weeks where when turning the key, there was a slight pause before the engine cranked. So something was failing gradually.

And, while I was digging around, I saw where the main bolts are on the starter. The bottom one doesn't look too bad, but the top one's going to be a pig (presuming I go the route of starter removal). Also, last time I did a starter, the bolts went along the axis of the starter (ok, it was a while ago - '73 Jaguar XJ6, and a P76 V8...) - these bolts go across the axis of the starter. Not what I was expecting, but it is what it is...

So, my guess is still that it's in the starter itself, but, as always, would welcome thoughts from all!

Will continue this as I keep exploring.

[justinc]

I have seen several instances of failing ignition switches that can cause a pause and eventual fsilure yo crank situation. ..

[skidrov]

I have seen several instances of failing ignition switches that can cause a pause and eventual fsilure yo crank situation. ..
Hmmm ok... but wouldn't that mean I'd get no voltage when turning to crank, because the relay wouldn't be triggered? Or is this another one of these Defender relays that's not in the greatest place in the circuit (like the headlights)?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Ignition switch is on the key barrel
Starter relay is in the battery junction box (under driver's seat).
Starter solenoid is part of the starter motor assembly.

BJB Fusible link 1 (60A) feeds the IGN switch. When the key is turned, the white/red wire in the starter relay is energised to activate the coil. This should only have 12V power when key is set to crank. This signal continues out of the relay to the ECM via the orange/black wire. So this circuit pulls in the starter relay switch.
Fusble link F3 (30A) in the BJB powers the Brown/Grey wire which is a thick wire on the starter relay. This should always have 12V. On the other hand, the high current output of the starter relay (Brown, red trace) should only see 12V when relay is energised. This brown/red wire has a connector when it changes to a Brown/Green wire... which eventually connects to the starter motor on the smallest of the 3 wires.


So if I were you, I'd have a crack at the following steps:
1) Take off drivers seat cushion and access the Battery junction box. Flick key to crank, and listen for the activation of the starter relay (you can also feel them activate if you put a finger on it while doing so). If Good, go to step 5. If not, go to step 2
1a) Swap out starter relay for another suitable relay in the junction box (if available). You might be able to rule out the relay as the problem before going balls-deep in the wiring.

2) Check for 12V at fusbile link 1- this goes to the ign barrel. If OK, also check for 12V at the Brown/white wire on the back of the ign barrel (and while you are at it, check that all connections are secure. As JC says, these switches can and do fail.

3)Turn key to crank, you should see 12V on the White/red wire coming out of the ignition barrel. If this is OK, then the switch is operating correctly, if it is getting and losing power (while key is on 'crank'), then the switch might be flakey. Probably worth looking at a replacement switch if this is the case.

4) Check all other fusible links in your BJB that they are not blown- specificially fusible links 1 and 3, plus the big 500A job on the battery. You should check for 12V at fusible link 3 (the 30A one). Should read 12V. This is the output circuit of the starter relay.

5) If your starter relay is clicking, then check for 12V while cranking on the brown/red wire coming out of the starter relay.

6) You can also check the brown/red wire from step 5 for continuity with (or voltage at) the small brown/green wire on the starter motor itself. Should have cuntinuity... having power upstream, but not at the starter motor while cranking might indicate a break or short in the wiring.

6) As with anything electrical, lok for the basic things first... broken connectors, loose wires flapping in the breeze, obvious damage...

7) If the on-car electrics check out as OK, then if you can get the starter motor to an auto sparky, they can easily bench test the motor. I haven't been able to find any test procedure for the starter motor, but usually checking resistance thru the windings might be a good indication of whether the guts of it are burnt out.

[ozy013]

As JC mentioned earlier, the ignition switch can stick and cause the unit to run on and hence fail. Just finished a big shift at work, but I do remember a Landrover Service bulletin somewhere.

Ah ha found it.


Models
LD - Defender
Title Mulitiple Star
Starter Motor Failure
Last Modified 21-JAN-2009 17:43
Category Electrical
Symptom 203000 Basic Electrical
Content
Issue:
Repeat failures on Defender starter motors.
Cause:
The ignition switch can jam causing starter
motor failure due to over running.
Action:
If the starter motor has failed check
operation of ignition switch;
a) Is the switch jammed through any of its
positions?
b) Does the switch fully return to position 2
once cranked and the inhibit operates, not
allowing re-crank from position 2?
c) Does the starter
motor continue to
engage once cranked and key released?
If the answer to any of the above is YES
please change ignition barrel as well as
starter motor as potentially the starter motor
will fail again.
Vehicles post vin. 775971 have been
modified and should not demonstate this
concern.

Also below is a link to the Electrical wiring diagrams for the 2.4, hope it helps. To tired to think straight at the moment.
Microsoft services (https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=4BC2D89C85C7C171&id=4BC2D89C85C7C171%21580&parId=4BC2D89C85C7C171%21565&o=OneUp)

[scarry]

Yes the sons Puma had a running on starter,it was fixed under warranty.

But what they didn't do,during the job, was put the battery terminals on tightly,so then he had similar issues to the OP.

Something else(battery terminals), need to be checked.

Also on occasions,corrosion under the terminals will cause a similar problem.

All will seem fine,until the battery is loaded,when the starter is engaged,then the voltage will drop way down at the starter terminals.

[eckwalsh]

Had this exact problem a few months ago. Ended up it was the ignition switch and by the sounds its a fairly common problem. Removed the starter (what a bastartd of a job) and cleaned and serviced the starter. All was ok. Had noticed for some time the ignition switch was sticking on at times and was not all that free turning. Could actually start my puma by turning on the ignition and then activating the starter solenoid. So for a few weeks I had a twin wire running from the starter up to the guard so when I needed to start it I had to turn the ignition on and get out and touch the 2 wires to activate the started and it started perfectly. Found the problem was the ignition switch so I ordered and installed a new one. Much better now not having to get out to start it. Lol

[skidrov]

Thanks for the replies, folks.

Tox: brilliant logic chart, thanks much! Will follow it.

ozy013: I did see that bulletin in my searching, and I have seen the various threads on lock/barrel replacement. I don't think mine is sticking, but not ruling it out just yet. And, it could "simply" be the ignition switch in my case, not the lock barrel. Thanks much for replying after what sounds like a heavy shift.

Now, jumping ahead a bit (yeah, I know, always dangerous): IF I find it's the ignition switch, can I remove the switch assembly without removing the ignition key/barrel/lock/switch assembly and all the associated joys of chiselling/punching/EZ-outing of shear bolts? I guess I'll see this when I strip off the trim around the steering wheel etc. to do the electrics tests in Tox's flow chart, but would appreciate knowing if it's a simple(ish) switch-swap, OR all the fun with shear bolts. I saw all the threads on ignition barrel replacement but I couldn't find anything on only replacing the ignition switch.

[skidrov]

Had this exact problem a few months ago. Ended up it was the ignition switch and by the sounds its a fairly common problem. Removed the starter (what a bastartd of a job) and cleaned and serviced the starter. All was ok. Had noticed for some time the ignition switch was sticking on at times and was not all that free turning. Could actually start my puma by turning on the ignition and then activating the starter solenoid. So for a few weeks I had a twin wire running from the starter up to the guard so when I needed to start it I had to turn the ignition on and get out and touch the 2 wires to activate the started and it started perfectly. Found the problem was the ignition switch so I ordered and installed a new one. Much better now not having to get out to start it. Lol

Ah, interesting! I posted a question around this just as you replied: how hard was it to replace the ignition switch? Did the whole lock assembly have to come out?

[Toxic_Avenger]

Part numbers for the switch from what I can see in the parts catalogue:

YXB500170 - > (SWITCH - IGNITION) [ - (V)CA416961 ]
LR035359 - > (SWITCH - IGNITION) [ (V)CA416961 - (V)CA555554 ]
LR039638 - > (SWITCH - IGNITION) [ (V)CA555555 - ]

[PAT303]

Ah, interesting! I posted a question around this just as you replied: how hard was it to replace the ignition switch? Did the whole lock assembly have to come out?

I'd like to know also because our TDCi started getting a tight ignition switch a few days ago. Pat

[skidrov]

OK, progress so far, sort of working thru Tox's checklist:

- Checked the starter relay: you can hear and feel it clicking.
- Double-checked the battery and terminals, including a clean/tighten of the terminals (although they were clean): no joy. I even put a second battery in parallel, just in case a cell was dropping under load; still no joy.
- Checked the mega-fuse: continuity.
- Checked the voltage at the starter (hi-ampage cable): 12V.
- Checked the voltage at the solenoid (on the weekend): it's a little low when you crank, not sure if that's normal or not. There is a loud "clack" from the solenoid when you key to crank, but no action from the starter.

And, confession time: given it was such a common failure, I replaced the ignition switch first - obviously not the issue in my case as it made no difference. OK, I can see the experienced mechanics shaking their heads at my poor practice (part change before diagnostics): yeah OK, will cop to that. [bigsad] Was just too often described by others for me not to try... And, at least now mine's done, and I've eliminated another fail item on the list in this case.

Just on replacing the ignition switch: it's a bit of a fiddly job. The upper column surround and the instrument binnacle need to come out. The old switch needs a light tap to remove it (AFTER you take out the little retaining screw). I suggest noting and removing the wires BEFORE you remove the switch (battery disconnected first, of course). Getting the new one in is really fiddly; no room, and it needs to be properly aligned. The wires went back on with little fuss, but note that there's not a lot of movement on the switch harness. Related note: I have NO idea how you'd get to the shear bolts on the ignition lock/barrel assembly. I didn't have to do this, but it looks like the dash would need to come out :wallbash:

So, I think I have an old-fashioned case of dead starter. I will now need to find the valium and time to deal with tackling that.... Again, any tricks anyone has found to simplify this GREATLY appreciated!

[skidrov]

Right, so the starter is out. Not as bad a job as I thought, but still quite fiddly. There's a good video on this: Defender starter fix (https://vimeo.com/141443209) It is a challenge doing the final extract once the starter is unbolted - I feel I can relate to an obstetrician....:eek: And, getting it back in is going to be a little more tricky than rinse & repeat, I think...

I then gave it a bench test, which was a little disappointing, in that it worked fine... [bigsad] - was hoping for an instant fail. What I did was the standard checks, triggering the solenoid only, which extended fine, and then triggering the solenoid & motor, which extended the solenoid and spun the motor, at what seemed a fair rate.

On the car, I got the solenoid "clack" but no motor spin. Now, I realise that it's different cranking thin air v. a 2.4L diesel... so on we go. I opened the starter up, and while there was obvious signs of use, it did not look burned or otherwise trashed. Haven't done commutator resistance tests yet.

So: I think I need to chat to an auto leccy, and maybe get them to check the starter (the next point on Tox's chart, credit where due). The other option is to grab one of the eBay Transit/Defender starters for $190 (search for "Starter Motor fit Ford Transit VM engine QVFA HPFB DUCATO 2.2L 2.4L Diesel 06-15") and try that. But, don't want to keep blindly throwing parts at the problem, so I think at the very least I'll phone a local leccy we've used before and see if they think it's worth them testing the starter.

The thought going thru my mind, of course, is to wonder what you'd do in the bush? Which is where I was the weekend before this happened...

The saga continues...

[eckwalsh]

Sounds like you are having fun with this. Lol. After re-installing my starter I put a hot wire cable on mine. This consisted of 2 wires about 2meters long with a small aligator clip on one end. I clipped one onto the main terminal of the starter (the large terminal) and the other onto the solenoid control (the little terminal). Then I just needed to turn the ignition on so that all the dash lights are on and get out and touch the wires together. Essentially hot wiri the car. This tests all components of the ignition circuit. If the starter doesn't turn over it is the starter motor. If it does its in the starter circuit.

[skidrov]

Sounds like you are having fun with this. Lol. After re-installing my starter I put a hot wire cable on mine. This consisted of 2 wires about 2meters long with a small aligator clip on one end. I clipped one onto the main terminal of the starter (the large terminal) and the other onto the solenoid control (the little terminal). Then I just needed to turn the ignition on so that all the dash lights are on and get out and touch the wires together. Essentially hot wiri the car. This tests all components of the ignition circuit. If the starter doesn't turn over it is the starter motor. If it does its in the starter circuit.

Yep great fun! Happy for it to stop now... Too much fun is bad for you... [tonguewink]

The hotwire idea sounds like the way to go as the next diagnostic if the starter checks out OK. If that's the case (hotwire works) clearly I missed something.

Question for you though: when your ignition switch had failed, did you get any sound from the starter, i.e. did it give the "clack" of the solenoid activating at all? Obviously I mean via turning the key to crank, not via the hotwire.

[skidrov]

OK, so, we're running! So, that's good... sort of... right?

My hesitation is that I'm not sure exactly what fixed it [FishSlap] - so, obviously, not sure if/when it'll happen again.

I took the starter down to an auto leccy in South Melbourne - Duncan Auto Electrics, good shop, if you need an auto leccy - who very kindly stepped away from their immediate job and put the starter on the bench for me - pretty much the same tests I did, but also did a load test, AND these guys do it for a day job - not like mug amateur me... [tonguewink] . Bottom line is that they gave the starter a clean bill of health.

So, I thought I may as well put it back on the car and try it - that would be the next diagnostic step anyhow.

Notes on refitting: not too bad a job, the worst bit, silly as it sounds, is trying to get the lead and nut back on the solenoid. Really awkward angles, I lost two nuts under there somewhere trying... Best to get this solenoid lead on while the starter's still loose, so you can move it and find a good angle. The main bolts need ring spanners on and off (13mm), with a 10mm nyloc on top of the top one holding a small bracket, and the electrical leads need your small drive sockets, and/or a 10mm spanner.

So, all back together, what the hell, let's try it. And it starts..... [Stunned silence emoticon] (well, as silent as it can be in a running Deafener...).

As I say, not sure what finally fixed it. Dunno if my ignition switch was on its way out, and that caused the starter to have some sort of obscure sulking fit, or what. The only thing I did notice when opening the starter what that there was a small piece of brush carbon between the commutators - maybe that had something to do with it? #uck knows.... The auto leccy did say, after I described my symptoms/diagnostics, that if it worked on refitting, it probably was the starter.

So, end of saga for now, and hopefully for a while. Hope this is of some help for someone at some stage.

[eckwalsh]

Yep great fun! Happy for it to stop now... Too much fun is bad for you... [tonguewink]

The hotwire idea sounds like the way to go as the next diagnostic if the starter checks out OK. If that's the case (hotwire works) clearly I missed something.

Question for you though: when your ignition switch had failed, did you get any sound from the starter, i.e. did it give the "clack" of the solenoid activating at all? Obviously I mean via turning the key to crank, not via the hotwire.

Yes it did give a click. I originally thought it was a flat battery. But wouldn't start even with jumper leads. Had to clutch it to to start it to get home. Did the pull the starter outand service it etc but still didn't work. Accidentally touched across the starter terminal and it turned over. Thats when I set up the hot wire. With the ignition on I coild tach the wires together for a second or 2 and it started perfectly. Thats when I back tracked through the circuit and fuses etc untill I was left with the ignition. When I took it out it was melted. Replaced it with a new one and all fixed.