Bugger Bugger Buggering clutch

[Clickweezippo]

Ok, so I've been having a bit of trouble with the clutch on my Td5 110 slipping

The clutch was replaced 6000kms ago but still slips, normally in 5th going up hill. I posted a thread about this about a month or so ago and a couple of people suggested replacing the master and slave cylinders.
I replaced these at the weekend, bled them and for about 3 days this seemed to of cured it. There was a little bit of sponginess at the top of the pedal, but I thought "that's ok, it'd bleed what little bit of air's left in it itself" which it has done, and now I have a bit of free play at the pedal before it takes up the clutch and a normal bite point. Is the 140mm distance between the pedal and the floor really that critical or is that just a comfort thing for the driver 'cos I can't see how this would impact on the operation of the clutch itself, if you have about 5mm of free play before it takes up, the clutch should be fully engaged no matter where the pedal sits (within reason) mine's about 150mm to the floor.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, before it bled itself and the bite point was lower, the clutch seemed to preform perfectly with no slip, but as it's "readjusted" itself and seems to of bled that little bit of air out it's started to slip again. Is it worth bleeding it again or adjusting the pedal to the magical 140mm. This things driving me insane, all my waking hours (and dreams come to think of it) are revolving around Land Rover clutches.

The engine has a variable vane turbo fitted and I've got a map install into the ECU to match that, but surely the clutch should be able to cope with it. I think someone mentioned you can get an AP racing clutch that will fit them that will take a lot more power/towing abuse.

Please help as I'm pretty much out of idea's now, and that white jacket with the extra long sleeves and room with the rubber wall paper is fast approaching (unlike my Defender when the clutch is slipping).

Paul

[cuppabillytea]

Ok, so I've been having a bit of trouble with the clutch on my Td5 110 slipping

The clutch was replaced 6000kms ago but still slips, normally in 5th going up hill. I posted a thread about this about a month or so ago and a couple of people suggested replacing the master and slave cylinders.
I replaced these at the weekend, bled them and for about 3 days this seemed to of cured it. There was a little bit of sponginess at the top of the pedal, but I thought "that's ok, it'd bleed what little bit of air's left in it itself" which it has done, and now I have a bit of free play at the pedal before it takes up the clutch and a normal bite point. Is the 140mm distance between the pedal and the floor really that critical or is that just a comfort thing for the driver 'cos I can't see how this would impact on the operation of the clutch itself, if you have about 5mm of free play before it takes up, the clutch should be fully engaged no matter where the pedal sits (within reason) mine's about 150mm to the floor.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is, before it bled itself and the bite point was lower, the clutch seemed to preform perfectly with no slip, but as it's "readjusted" itself and seems to of bled that little bit of air out it's started to slip again. Is it worth bleeding it again or adjusting the pedal to the magical 140mm. This things driving me insane, all my waking hours (and dreams come to think of it) are revolving around Land Rover clutches.

The engine has a variable vane turbo fitted and I've got a map install into the ECU to match that, but surely the clutch should be able to cope with it. I think someone mentioned you can get an AP racing clutch that will fit them that will take a lot more power/towing abuse.

Please help as I'm pretty much out of idea's now, and that white jacket with the extra long sleeves and room with the rubber wall paper is fast approaching (unlike my Defender when the clutch is slipping).

Paul
The hydraulic parts of your clutch system act to release it, so if there was air in it you would find it more difficult to release it or slip it. If your hydraulic system is causing your clutch to slip it is possible that a piston is jamming, most likely in the slave cylinder. Presumably the mechanic who replaced your clutch , checked the face of the flywheel for glazing or oil smears.
Edit: I haven't seen a TD5 clutch slave but I'd imagine that the length of the actuator is adjustable. Have a look. If it is, adjust it back so there's a little bit of free play.

[Tins]

The hydraulic parts of your clutch system act to release it, so if there was air in it you would find it more difficult to release it or slip it. If your hydraulic system is causing your clutch to slip it is possible that a piston is jamming, most likely in the slave cylinder. Presumably the mechanic who replaced your clutch , checked the face of the flywheel for glazing or oil smears.

X2. Air in the system will make the clutch more difficult to release, it won't cause slip. Pedal height is important, but it's not the be all and end all. Pop under the car and see if there is freeplay between the slave cyl and the throwout arm. If there is then pedal height etc aren't the issue.

Slip is almost always caused by mechanical issues. Worn plates, broken springs, jammed mechanisms. One of the main things uverlooked during clutch replacement is the throwout arm it self, and the free movement of the release bearing on the nose sleeve. Your mech should have checked all of that. Take it back.

[Clickweezippo]

When the clutch was replaced they said the flywheel was replaced as well 'cos it had heat damage. I can only take their word for it, but on all accounts the garage that replaced it are held in high esteem by the Land Rovering community here in Perth.

Both the master and slave cylinders are brand new being only a week old and genuine parts, a TRW master and an AP slave, so you would think that the bores are good. I also pulled the old ones apart and they look pretty good too, but I changed them in that process of elimination.

All I want to do is cover all bases before setting about ripping the engine out. Do the easy stuff first (if there's such a thing as an easy job on a Landy).

Thanks for the reply

Paul

[Tins]

When the clutch was replaced they said the flywheel was replaced as well 'cos it had heat damage. I can only take their word for it, but on all accounts the garage that replaced it are held in high esteem by the Land Rovering community here in Perth.

Both the master and slave cylinders are brand new being only a week old and genuine parts, a TRW master and an AP slave, so you would think that the bores are good. I also pulled the old ones apart and they look pretty good too, but I changed them in that process of elimination.

All I want to do is cover all bases before setting about ripping the engine out. Do the easy stuff first (if there's such a thing as an easy job on a Landy).

Thanks for the reply

Paul

Not intending to impugn the rep of your mech, Paul. Mistakes, however, can happen. If they have a good rep I would go back to them and discuss the issue with them.

Oh, another cause of clutch slip of course is oil. Do you have any oil leaks, particularly at the back of the engine? ( Once again, no offence meant, but needs to be said ).

[bee utey]

It sounds like your master cylinder isn't fully released. Make sure that the pedal allows the master cylinder pushrod to go slack. Otherwise it blocks the fluid transfer port to the reservoir, and with operation and some heat the fluid expands and holds the clutch partly released. You may be able to release the master cylinder on the pedal box and fit a couple of shims under it if you don't wish to get your head under the dash. I've met this problem often enough to be aware of the perils of not checking the pushrod clearance on installation.

[djam1]

The hose in the hydraulic circuit hasn't swelled and blocked internally has it?

This will cause slippage as the clutch releases slowly or not at all

A TD5 clutch will handle a vnt and map I know mine does
If you drive like Jose not so much
If sensibly driven it seems ok

Sorry Jose

[Tins]

It sounds like your master cylinder isn't fully released. Make sure that the pedal allows the master cylinder pushrod to go slack. Otherwise it blocks the fluid transfer port to the reservoir, and with operation and some heat the fluid expands and holds the clutch partly released. You may be able to release the master cylinder on the pedal box and fit a couple of shims under it if you don't wish to get your head under the dash. I've met this problem often enough to be aware of the perils of not checking the pushrod clearance on installation.

Yep, but checking for some freeplay at the slave end should rule that out.

[Tins]

djam1 and bee utey both point to probably the only way a hydraulic issue could cause slip, and that is residual line pressure. If bee utey is right, then the pressure should be evident at the slave cyl. djam's one is harder to pick, as the pressure would not remain for long, and would be harder to pick unless you had two people.

[rangieman]

It sounds like your master cylinder isn't fully released. Make sure that the pedal allows the master cylinder pushrod to go slack. Otherwise it blocks the fluid transfer port to the reservoir, and with operation and some heat the fluid expands and holds the clutch partly released. You may be able to release the master cylinder on the pedal box and fit a couple of shims under it if you don't wish to get your head under the dash. I've met this problem often enough to be aware of the perils of not checking the pushrod clearance on installation.
With this in mind has anyone adjusted the shaft that goes from the clutch pedal to the clutch master cylinder ?[bigwhistle]
Or is it posible that if you changed the master cylinder that the shaft from the pedal to the cylinder is not seated properly[wink11]

[Clickweezippo]

Ok, thanks for the advice, I rang the garage earlier today and I'm taking it down to them tomorrow so they can take a look at it.

If I have no joy with them then you fellas have given me plenty of things to check, which I shall do.

The first thing I'll check will be the free play on the master cylinder rod as I messed around a little with this trying to get the 140mm setting pedal to floor.

Now it's been mentioned though I checked the fluid level yesterday and thought to myself that it had gone quite dark in colour for saying it's only a few days old, which could point towards the flexi hose at the slave end breaking down internally.

I'm pretty sure it's more to do with this side of things than the actual clutch as it's intermittent and since I've changed the master and slave it seems to be better but not perfect, of course.

Thanks for the help and I'll let you know how I get on.

Paul

[Clickweezippo]

Howdy folks, just a quick up date

I do indeed stand by the rep of this mechanic, he stands by his work and the work his lads do.

I took it down to him this morning and he took the Defender for a quick run, came back and said "Yep, the clutch is slipping, we'll get it in and replace it under warranty. We'll go though everything and check the system out. We will get it right". He also said they install only Valeo clutches 'cos they're heavier duty and Defender 130 one's at that 'cos they're a bit heavier duty again.

So, just to completely cover all bases he's going to replace the flexi hose next to the slave, check out the master and slave cylinders and will sort it all out.

Thank you everyone for the advice and the like, it's actually nice to get a result for a change.

Paul

[Tins]

Howdy folks, just a quick up date

I do indeed stand by the rep of this mechanic, he stands by his work and the work his lads do.

I took it down to him this morning and he took the Defender for a quick run, came back and said "Yep, the clutch is slipping, we'll get it in and replace it under warranty. We'll go though everything and check the system out. We will get it right". He also said they install only Valeo clutches 'cos they're heavier duty and Defender 130 one's at that 'cos they're a bit heavier duty again.

So, just to completely cover all bases he's going to replace the flexi hose next to the slave, check out the master and slave cylinders and will sort it all out.

Thank you everyone for the advice and the like, it's actually nice to get a result for a change.

Paul

Great result. Now, maybe you can get some sleep with dreams of what you and your Landy can be doing.....

[Clickweezippo]

Great result. Now, maybe you can get some sleep with dreams of what you and your Landy can be doing.....

Indeed my friend,

I'm planning a road trip to do with my 13 year old son, you know camping rough, taking our time and seeing the sights.

Leaving the wife and daughter at home to do womany things, like cooking and cleaning. ( Read that as shopping and spending money). Good job they've got a sense of humour.

Talking of which always nice to meet another Terry Prachett reader.

[Tins]

Indeed my friend,


Talking of which always nice to meet another Terry Prachett reader.

ook!

Life would be boring without a little DiscWorld every now and then. Tragic to think that there will be no more.

[Tins]

ook!

Life would be boring without a little DiscWorld every now and then. Tragic to think that there will be no more.

Oh, I found some lovely copies of his books, and my 11 year old grand son loves them. Sadly, out of all my 7 grand and step grand kids, so far he's the only one.

[DazzaTD5]

I was going to suggest that if its Rovertech, then why would you not take it straight back, Kevin and his team are a great bunch and from what I have seen I cant fault their work nor their attitude towards rectifying any issues that might come up with a job.

As Kevin has said many times.... You can spend a lifetime building up a good rep and you can loose it in about 10 mins.

Regards
Daz

[Clickweezippo]

I was going to suggest that if its Rovertech, then why would you not take it straight back, Kevin and his team are a great bunch and from what I have seen I cant fault their work nor their attitude towards rectifying any issues that might come up with a job.

As Kevin has said many times.... You can spend a lifetime building up a good rep and you can loose it in about 10 mins.

Regards
Daz


Daz,

You are right on target with who the workshop is, as you say Kevin is a top man and I should of taken it back sooner, but I usually do all the work on all my Landies myself but due to time constraints I had to trust this job to some one else. I suppose at the back of my mind I didn't want them thinking I was calling their work into question. I didn't want to get into a s#%t fight over it, so if it was a simple fix I'd just do it myself.

As it happens Kevin was brilliant over this issue and is going to fix it for me and because of this will get some more work from me in the future. This is the first time I've used Rovertech so I wasn't sure what sort of reaction I would get.

It is a refreshing change to find some one who isn't just all about pay me, pay me, but still has good old customer service that seems to be lacking so much within the retail industry nowadays.

Paul.

[Clickweezippo]

ook!

Life would be boring without a little DiscWorld every now and then. Tragic to think that there will be no more.

He had a brilliant turn of phrase didn't he,

Nobby Nobbs disqualified from the Human Race for pushing. Absolute brilliance!

[Clickweezippo]

Just a quick update

Rovertech took the Defender in, had for a while, got a phone call from Kevin explaining everything they'd done on the clutch and that it was ready to pick up.

He replaced the clutch at his own expense, checked everything related to the clutch, replaced the flexi pipe and did a couple of jobs I asked him to do whilst it was there, even found the small coolant leak I've been looking for for the last couple of months ( I didn't even tell him about this but he found it anyway, turns out there's a small drip from the heater coil, bonus).

As far as I'm concerned, if you're looking for a Land Rover workshop in Perth, this is the one to go to, I don't know if he's a bit pricey ( I don't usually use any Mech's, my mates and I usually do the work on our Landy's between us) but even if he is, my opinion is you get what you pay for. You pay peanut's, you get monkeys ballsing your car up.

I can not praise the costumer service and professionalism of the lads and Kevin enough.

Keep up the good work.

Paul

[rangieman]

Great outcome and great service thats what we like to hear :BigThumb:

[TeamFA]

Good to hear, and thanks for coming back to the thread to update everybody.

Were they able to give a definite - or even probable - cause for the slipping?

[Clickweezippo]

They couldn't say for definite, but put it down to weak pressure plate springs at manufacture, possibly, may be.

Kevin said though, they checked everything, measured the pivot point, throw length, remeasured the free play etc etc........ the only thing they could put it down to was a fault with the clutch at the manufacturing stage. He said it's rare but it does happen.

Up to now it's been fine, but I only picked it up a few days ago. I re-threaded just to say that Rovertech had stood by their work and reputation and I thought that was worth letting people know that. People are quick to bag workshops out but not praise them so much, you know, you always hear about the bad stuff never the good stuff.

Paul

[Tins]

They couldn't say for definite, but put it down to weak pressure plate springs at manufacture, possibly, may be.

Kevin said though, they checked everything, measured the pivot point, throw length, remeasured the free play etc etc........ the only thing they could put it down to was a fault with the clutch at the manufacturing stage. He said it's rare but it does happen.

Up to now it's been fine, but I only picked it up a few days ago. I re-threaded just to say that Rovertech had stood by their work and reputation and I thought that was worth letting people know that. People are quick to bag workshops out but not praise them so much, you know, you always hear about the bad stuff never the good stuff.

Paul.

It does happen. The bloke who takes the new clutch out of it's box expects, with god reason, that it will work. Sometimes, a new supplier is in order. Glad it got sorted. Good to know the workshop is the real deal.