another london attack

[Eevo]

another terror attack in london. people run down and others stabbed.

sorry being cynical but i'm sure sending more thoughts and prayers will fix the problem.

[DiscoMick]

Not clear yet who was responsible, from reading the BBC and Guardian.

[trout1105]

The Police reaction time was only 2 min which left 3 attackers dead, One of which apparently had canisters on him.
I would imagine that the excellent response time saved a lot of other people from being harmed [thumbsupbig]

[Andy130]

Not clear yet who was responsible, from reading the BBC and Guardian.

Going on recent form DiscoMick, let me guess...it was probably a couple of disgruntled Anglicans.[bighmmm]

[Tins]

Going on recent form DiscoMick, let me guess...it was probably a couple of disgruntled Anglicans.[bighmmm]

I was leaning towards Buddhists.

[jonesfam]

another terror attack in london. people run down and others stabbed.

sorry being cynical but i'm sure sending more thoughts and prayers will fix the problem.

No, thoughts & prayers wont fix the problem but,
Its about all we can give in the short term.

Jonesfam

[cripesamighty]

I'm going out on a limb here, but it may have been the 'religion of peace'.....

[Hall]

The Police reaction time was only 2 min which left 3 attackers dead
That is what worry's me in OZ . It took a hour and a half of dithering ( oh we had to make sure all the details where checked ) to get people of a plane or the NSW wait til there is gun fire before we react. Going by these latest fine examples of our law enforcement, if there was a incident in OZ the terrorist would be home having a cuppa before the first police arrived. It is a duel edged problem in OZ, Great we don`t have any successful attacks, but it leaves our anti terrorist forces untested when it comes to the real thing.
Cheers Hall

[trout1105]

The Brit Police force have been dealing with terrorist threats for decades, First the IRA and now these Muslim Radicals.
The problem in Australia is relatively New in comparison to the Brits and we have lots of "Catch Up" to do if we are to be as effective as the Brits I would imagine.

[cripesamighty]

Definitely agree about Australia needing to catch up. I got my wake-up call in 1995 on a 2 month holiday in the Middle East. While I was over there, Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated in Israel and while in Egypt, a lot of tourists were getting targeted. One incident I remember was the train after ours got the first class carriages shot up and some tourists killed. Seeing how the Israeli's handled their day to day security was an eye opener compared to what I was used to in Australia and NZ. I really feel for the poor buggers in the UK at the moment.

[Eevo]

not sure if we need to catch up in that way.
london has a bobbie on almost every street corner.

syd/melb couldnt do that if it wanted to.

[DiscoMick]

Certainly a very efficient response considering most British police still don't carry guns, so the armed squad must have been very close, maybe at Parliament House after the previous attack on the bridge.

[Pickles2]

Wifey just got back from a few weeks in the Holy Land, Palestine, Israel, Egypt, Jordan etc..lots of guns etc on display, which she said made her feel safe, 'cause she felt that any bad guys would be quickly dealt with!....but she never ever felt threatened whilst she was there. She did feel however that the Israeli Soldiers/Border Police were right on it, and one certainly wouldn't mess with them.
Pickles.

[Redback]

Please refrain from going into religous political debate or the thread will be closed.

[bob10]

All of a sudden I feel very, very, angry.

Federal Government officially confirms two Australians died in London Bridge terrorist attack (http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/federal-government-officially-confirms-two-australians-died-in-london-bridge-terrorist-attack/ar-BBCbLNx?ocid=spartandhp)

[DiscoMick]

I also feel very angry. So do a lot of British people.

More Muslim leaders refuse funeral prayers for London attackers | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/06/more-muslim-leaders-refuse-funeral-prayers-london-attackers)

[Eevo]

.

[Andy130]

All of a sudden I feel very, very, angry.

Federal Government officially confirms two Australians died in London Bridge terrorist attack (http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/federal-government-officially-confirms-two-australians-died-in-london-bridge-terrorist-attack/ar-BBCbLNx?ocid=spartandhp)

Its high time we turn the "terror watch lists" into the "exile or deport list." get these ****ing ****** out of our countries.

[cripesamighty]

Way too many bleeding hearts for that common sense to happen....

[Eevo]

Its high time we turn the "terror watch lists" into the "exile or deport list." get these ****ing ****** out of our countries.


innocent until proven guilty.
i'm strongly against deporting someone who hasn't committed crime.

[ATH]

PM Theresa May has said that if Human Rights laws get in the way of deporting these evil people may be they should be altered. The outrage from the left was predictable. But this is exactly what all western governments should be doing including our own.
Close down the hate preachers and deport all of those who come here under refugee safety programs (which I agree with absolutely) and then turn against our way of life. If they don't/won't fit in with a western generally very generous to them way of life, out they go.
The British and Australian people and those of many other countries have bent over backwards to give safe refuge to oppressed peoples and get **** thrown back from a few of them. Luckily they're in a minority but what we need is leaders with guts to stand up against the UN etc. who believe we should not deport them.
AlanH.

[cripesamighty]

I'm for deporting the "go overseas and fight for a terrorist group, then get allowed back into the country and perform terrorist or other illegal acts here" brigade. Europe has made a cottage industry out of it. As for the child refugee programs, in one survey, 75% of the so called children were adults....

[Tins]

What I want to see most of all is the moderates of this group denouncing out loud this despicable behaviour. Otherwise they appear to be condoning it.

[Andy130]

innocent until proven guilty.
i'm strongly against deporting someone who hasn't committed crime.

These are all listed under the criminal code:

Listed terrorist organisations |








Australian National Security (https://www.nationalsecurity.gov.au/Listedterroristorganisations/Pages/default.aspx)

There are more that are pending listing.

Basically, if you're a member of, or swear allegiance to any of these, you should get the boot.

Simply advocating a terrorist act is a crime - and the punishment should be deportation for non citizens and exile for citizens.

Its time to cut the rot out.

[trout1105]

What I want to see most of all is the moderates of this group denouncing out loud this despicable behaviour

In my opinion that is Exactly what we need to happen, The moderates and the religious leaders have far more influence than ANY laws we may want to introduce.
IF these ratbags are Denounced and shunned by the very society and religion that they are living under then this sort of behaviour CAN be stopped,
Unfortunately this is NOT happening.

As the Australian Military is currently at War against ISIS, The Taliban and other extremists then wouldn't it be illegal to be a member or a supporter of these organisations and deportation or jail time is a real option to deal with this sort of thing?
Maybe sending these people back so that they can go to war against real soldiers instead if women and children would curb their appetite for violence [thumbsupbig]

[bob10]

Declare war, and get it over with. Any family with members who are on the radical watch list, send them back where they came from. Extend the hand to any moderate peaceful people. Intern the rest. Time to stop this . Either that, or allow the general public to carry arms, to protect themselves.

[Eevo]

Basically, if you're a member of, or swear allegiance to any of these, you should get the boot.

Simply advocating a terrorist act is a crime - and the punishment should be deportation for non citizens and exile for citizens.



i think those laws are disgusting.
they are not real crimes.

[trout1105]

i think those laws are disgusting.
they are not real crimes.

Tell that to the survivors or to the families of the people that have been murdered because of these attacks [bigwhistle]

[bob10]

I think things may come to a head soon.

Gunmen attack Iran's parliament, Khomeini shrine | Iran News | Al Jazeera (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/attacks-reported-iran-parliament-mausoleum-170607063232218.html)

[Eevo]

Tell that to the survivors or to the families of the people that have been murdered because of these attacks [bigwhistle]


murder is a real crime.

[ATH]

" i think those laws are disgusting.
they are not real crimes. "
So we let them do their worst and blow up innocents like in London, Manchester, Sydney before we act Eevo? I think it's long past the time governments took the soft line and really cracked down hard on anyone even suspected of thinking of committing such criminal murderous activities.
I also suspect many moderates are also frightened of the consequences of daring to condemn their actions.
The world has changed dramatically in the last 50 years or so since the European HR courts were set up but they are still refusing to accept this which is what the Tories want to do.
And our own government had better start realising this as well instead of making grandstanding speeches about "staying strong and standing together against terrorism".
Utter crap. These revolting scum should be shown no compassion or given any opportunity at all to carry out their murderous deeds.
AlanH.

[Tins]

i think those laws are disgusting.
they are not real crimes.

Really? Why not? Conspiracy to murder is a crime.
Planning a bank robbery is a crime.
Carrying a rape lit is a crime.
Going equiped to burgle is a crime.
Inciting violence is a crime.
Shouting Fire in a crowd is a crime.
Wearing a stocking mask into a bank is a crime.
Membership of a proscribed organisation is a crime.

Why should advocating a terrorist act be any different?

[Andy130]

i think those laws are disgusting.
they are not real crimes.

"A man is known by the company he keeps"

Aesop.

[Eevo]

Really? Why not? Conspiracy to murder is a crime.
Planning a bank robbery is a crime.
Carrying a rape lit is a crime.
Going equiped to burgle is a crime.
Inciting violence is a crime.
Shouting Fire in a crowd is a crime.
Wearing a stocking mask into a bank is a crime.
Membership of a proscribed organisation is a crime.

Why should advocating a terrorist act be any different?

cause until you commit the crime, nothing has happened.
you might plan it, then change your mind.

[Tins]

cause until you commit the crime, nothing has happened.
you might plan it, then change your mind.

So, using that logic, someone building an explosive vest to wear to, say, the AFL Grand Final has done nothing wrong until he detonates it?

[Eevo]

So we let them do their worst and blow up innocents like in London, Manchester, Sydney before we act Eevo? I think it's long past the time governments took the soft line and really cracked down hard on anyone even suspected of thinking of committing such criminal murderous activities.
I also suspect many moderates are also frightened of the consequences of daring to condemn their actions.
The world has changed dramatically in the last 50 years or so since the European HR courts were set up but they are still refusing to accept this which is what the Tories want to do.
And our own government had better start realising this as well instead of making grandstanding speeches about "staying strong and standing together against terrorism".
Utter crap. These revolting scum should be shown no compassion or given any opportunity at all to carry out their murderous deeds.
AlanH.

you want to arrest someone who hasn't actually done anything yet?

just thinking about committing a crime is a crime?
should we fine people who think about speeding?
thought police much?

[Eevo]

So, using that logic, someone building an explosive vest to wear to, say, the AFL Grand Final has done nothing wrong until he detonates it?

how can you be sure he was going to go through with it?

[Tins]

how can you be sure he was going to go through with it?

I'd rather take that chance than let him go through with it. It's a little late to do anything after the fact, don't you think?

[Eevo]

I'd rather take that chance than let him go through with it. It's a little late to do anything after the fact, don't you think?


you could be locking up an innocent. that's unacceptable.

[Tins]

you could be locking up an innocent. that's unacceptable.

Nope. Happens all the time, it's why we have this thing called Court. he can have his say then. However, merely building a bomb is illegal, and so it should be. So, he's not innocent at all.

[SimmAus]

you want to arrest someone who hasn't actually done anything yet?

just thinking about committing a crime is a crime?
should we fine people who think about speeding?
thought police much?

Luckily for us there are laws that answer the question logically, without engaging in deliberate antagonism
"intent to commit a crime" is a crime. we don't need to debate it.

Thanks

[bob10]

how can you be sure he was going to go through with it?

Come on Eevo, give it a rest. Seriously.

[Eevo]

Nope. Happens all the time, it's why we have this thing called Court. he can have his say then. However, merely building a bomb is illegal, and so it should be. So, he's not innocent at all.
i believe we have laws that allow police to hold people indefinitely without charge. no court involvement.

[Eevo]

Luckily for us there are laws that answer the question logically, without engaging in deliberate antagonism
"intent to commit a crime" is a crime. we don't need to debate it.

Thanks

not antagonising. i've had this option for a long time.
maybe we should be locking up people like me who want to debate laws. cause laws never change and never get debated.

[Eevo]

Come on Eevo, give it a rest. Seriously.

Seriously what? what are you upset over?

[Ean Austral]

Still to come,

- Conspiracy theories - did the terrorist really commit the crime - they we set up by the police
- How do we know they really committed the crime as the police shot them dead , so we will never know
- Their parents and friends say they were good people - it couldn't possibly have been them, so read number 1 & 2.

Hang on maybe the above only applies to people who shoot cops in Australia

YAWN - time to go to bed.

looks like another thread down the toilet.

Cheers Ean

[bob10]

Seriously what? what are you upset over?


You will keep pushing until you get the response you are after, but not with me. שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

[Eevo]

Still to come,

- Conspiracy theories - did the terrorist really commit the crime - they we set up by the police
- How do we know they really committed the crime as the police shot them dead , so we will never know
- Their parents and friends say they were good people - it couldn't possibly have been them, so read number 1 & 2.

Hang on maybe the above only applies to people who shoot cops in Australia

YAWN - time to go to bed.

looks like another thread down the toilet.

Cheers Ean


not even remotely related. if you cant see the difference... you need help. maybe i should report you to the terrorist hotline and have you arrested... for doing nothing.

[Eevo]

You will keep pushing until you get the response you are after, but not with me. שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

maybe you care to share your opinion, or are you just antagonising bob? :BigThumb:

[Ean Austral]

not even remotely related. if you cant see the difference... you need help. maybe i should report you to the terrorist hotline and have you arrested... for doing nothing.

I will do you a trade - you report me to the terrorist hotline and I will report you to the terrorist sympathizers hotline - see who gets the most attention.



Cheers Ean

[Eevo]

I will do you a trade - you report me to the terrorist hotline and I will report you to the terrorist sympathizers hotline - see who gets the most attention.



Cheers Ean


feel free. PM sent

[trout1105]

not antagonising. i've had this option for a long time.
maybe we should be locking up people like me who want to debate laws. cause laws never change and never get debated.

A debate usually consists of people putting forward their opinions with plausible options to solve a problem.
People that just throw negative statements into the discussion without putting forward any opinion as to how to actually solve the problem at hand are usually called "Hecklers".

If the cap fits then wear it [thumbsupbig]

[Eevo]

A debate usually consists of people putting forward their opinions with plausible options to solve a problem.
People that just throw negative statements into the discussion without putting forward any opinion as to how to actually solve the problem at hand are usually called "Hecklers".

If the cap fits then wear it [thumbsupbig]

dont have to solve a problem to have a debate.
i dont conciser my statements negative. they are a difference of opinion.
i dont think the terrorist problem can be solved by laws.

[trout1105]

i dont think the terrorist problem can be solved by laws.

Ok
Can you expand on that statement?
If the problem cannot be dealt with Lawfully then how do you propose how we can stop these terrorists??

[Eevo]

Ok
Can you expand on that statement?
If the problem cannot be dealt with Lawfully then how do you propose how we can stop these terrorists??


it's a cultural problem, i think.
making additional laws is useless for people who dont respect the law.
and "preventative" laws dont always catch people. people always slip past the police.
as i said before, i dont think you can stop these terrorists.


to butcher a well known quote:

Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both. He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither.

[Tins]

you could be locking up an innocent. that's unacceptable.

Is it acceptable to blow up hundreds of people? Your family, perhaps?

No, what would be unacceptable would be for the Police to do nothing because the prospective terrorist "might change his or her mind". "I wasn't really going to do it Officer" simply does not cut it, I'm afraid.

Comparisons to things like speeding are risible, and beneath you.

[trout1105]

it's a cultural problem, i think.
making additional laws is useless for people who dont respect the law.
and "preventative" laws dont always catch people. people always slip past the police.
as i said before, i dont think you can stop these terrorists.



The laws as they stand are probably letting terrorist evade prosecution that's why we need New laws and the assistance and cooperation from the leaders of these communities.
The only other alternative is to Remove the entire culture that is producing these terrorists and that would not only be unfair to the majority it would be Un Australian.

[Eevo]

Is it acceptable to blow up hundreds of people? Your family, perhaps?

No, what would be unacceptable would be for the Police to do nothing because the prospective terrorist "might change his or her mind". "I wasn't really going to do it Officer" simply does not cut it, I'm afraid.

Comparisons to things like speeding are risible, and beneath you.

hundreds of people, no
my family. hmmmm

i'm not condoning murder.
police should be there to deter (and stop). but not to arrest someone for something they have not done.

the comparison is using the same logic and rules.

[Eevo]

The laws as they stand are probably letting terrorist evade prosecution that's why we need New laws and the assistance and cooperation from the leaders of these communities.
The only other alternative is to Remove the entire culture that is producing these terrorists and that would not only be unfair to the majority it would be Un Australian.


what new laws would you introduce?
planning is already a crime
being a member of a terror group is already a crime.

neither of these laws stopped these terrorists from doing what they did

[bee utey]

Is it acceptable to blow up hundreds of people? Your family, perhaps?

No, what would be unacceptable would be for the Police to do nothing because the prospective terrorist "might change his or her mind". "I wasn't really going to do it Officer" simply does not cut it, I'm afraid.

Comparisons to things like speeding are risible, and beneath you.

Police and security are now working so well that the average "terrorist" is barely able to muster a gun, often no more than a knife and a vehicle and is taken out after a few killings. (BTW professional crims hate terrorists so are loath to part with guns for them.) It's not really a lot different to a suspended driver going on an ice bender and mowing down a few people outside a night club because he hates gays. The difference between a "terrorist" and a "mentally deranged person (but one of us)" is a petty distinction bolstered by our very own faux news king, Rupert Murdoch. Letting yourself feel terror at something that happens to a relatively small number of people is simply a sign that the trash media has you by the nuts. It's like being afraid of going on a plane just because the news is full of another crash. Yet the chance of you dying in a plane crash is lower than ever before, ditto of terrorism.

[Eevo]

you raise a good point.
whats the difference between me running around with a knife and the guys in london?
am i a terrorist or just a loony?

[Tins]

you raise a good point.
whats the difference between me running around with a knife and the guys in london?
am i a terrorist or just a loony?

OK. You ask. Run around with a knife. Get apprehended. Let them explain it to you. It may be an enlightening experience. In the meantime, we'll all have to curtail our knife carrying, because you cannot see that terrorism is winning because of soft cock laws such as you advocate. I have a lot of respect for your views on LR issues, Eevo, but I'm not getting you here. It seems you believe that it's OK to want to take a bomb into a public place, but it's not OK to detonate it? Where is the divide?? When is it OK for the Police to intervene???

A little scenario.. You awake, in the wee hours. I am going to assume some things here, like, you are married, and maybe have a kid: I'm sorry if that is not you; anyway, you awake to find a man with a balaclava and a gun in your home, holding his gun to the head of your child. Question I would like to ask you at this point: is he a criminal? Would that question be the first thing on your mind? Or would the first thing be: "where are the police when I need them"?

It is all very well to discuss intent. I'm sure the victims of Martin Bryant would agree. I'm sure the victims of 9/11 will agree as well. I'm sorry, Eevo, but SOCIETY must have rules. If those rules are unfair, then SOCIETY will decide. Mostly Society gets it right. At the very least we no longer hang people. That way, Society gets a second chance.

[trout1105]

whats the difference between me running around with a knife and the guys in london?
am i a terrorist or just a loony?

Who cares, In both cases you would be shot down by the Brit armed police.
Or would you prefer that they waited until you killed someone before opening fire ?
With your way of doing things people have to die before any legal action can be taken to stop you, I think I much prefer the Brit method myself [thumbsupbig]

[Tins]

Who cares, In both cases you would be shot down by the Brit armed police.
Or would you prefer that they waited until you killed someone before opening fire ?
With your way of doing things people have to die before any legal action can be taken to stop you, I think I much prefer the Brit method myself [thumbsupbig]

I have a new next door neighbour. He used to be in that very squad in the Met, and has come here to live. VicPol has taken him on. He has gone into the Police Academy here, accepted at the rank of Constable with the power of arrest etc. before he actually completes the Academy stuff. I, for one, hope that VicPol listens to him. Those were his mates that acted at the Borough, and they did the right thing. No question. We need that sort of response here. There should be no leniency for acts of terrorism. Sorry, Eevo, you are so, so wrong.

[Eevo]

OK. You ask. Run around with a knife. Get apprehended. Let them explain it to you. It may be an enlightening experience. In the meantime, we'll all have to curtail our knife carrying, because you cannot see that terrorism is winning because of soft cock laws such as you advocate. I have a lot of respect for your views on LR issues, Eevo, but I'm not getting you here. It seems you believe that it's OK to want to take a bomb into a public place, but it's not OK to detonate it? Where is the divide?? When is it OK for the Police to intervene???

A little scenario.. You awake, in the wee hours. I am going to assume some things here, like, you are married, and maybe have a kid: I'm sorry if that is not you; anyway, you awake to find a man with a balaclava and a gun in your home, holding his gun to the head of your child. Question I would like to ask you at this point: is he a criminal? Would that question be the first thing on your mind? Or would the first thing be: "where are the police when I need them"?

It is all very well to discuss intent. I'm sure the victims of Martin Bryant would agree. I'm sure the victims of 9/11 will agree as well. I'm sorry, Eevo, but SOCIETY must have rules. If those rules are unfair, then SOCIETY will decide. Mostly Society gets it right. At the very least we no longer hang people. That way, Society gets a second chance.


quite the opposite. the terrorist is winning cause we're changing our way or life and laws because of them.


if he's got a balaclava on, how do you know its a he? breaking and entering, kidnapping, illegal weapon yes. murder, no.
as a volunteer firefigher, one question im often asking is "where the hell are police when I need them"?
but when i'm at home, no. police are useless. i wouldnt bother reporting a robbery to them unless the insurance company asked me to.

we've gone from planning to murder to taking a bomb out in public. those are two different things.

society does need rules. i dont recall saying it doesnt. society or politicians? big difference.
rules also shouldnt be made in a knee jurk response to emotional events

[Eevo]

Who cares, In both cases you would be shot down by the Brit armed police.
Or would you prefer that they waited until you killed someone before opening fire ?
With your way of doing things people have to die before any legal action can be taken to stop you, I think I much prefer the Brit method myself [thumbsupbig]

i think you missed my point.
it wouldn't be called terrorism cause i'm white.

was it back in 2005 that british police killed an innocent cause they suspected him of having a bomb..they were wrong. how does his family feel? shoot first and ask questions later is a poor idea.

[Eevo]

There should be no leniency for acts of terrorism. Sorry, Eevo, you are so, so wrong.

cool story but its irrelevant
and leniency is also irrelevant to this conversation. i dont think anyone is suggesting we should go lenient on criminals. (not that the punishment system we have is working, need rehabilitation)

[Eevo]

Jean Charles de Menezes is the guy who was killed

[trout1105]

i think you missed my point.
it wouldn't be called terrorism cause i'm white.


Terrorists come in all different shapes and colours, including "Whites".
What a racist statement :(

[Eevo]

Terrorists come in all different shapes and colours, including "Whites".
What a racist statement :(

thats just the way it is. i dont control the media.

Why Does the Media Refuse to Call White Murderers Terrorists? | Big Think (http://bigthink.com/21st-century-spirituality/why-does-the-media-refuse-to-call-white-murderers-terrorists)

[trout1105]

Australian pollies like to talk "Tough" about controlling terrorists But in reality our laws are P*** weak and the terrorists take full advantage of this.
Maybe if they ignored all the whining and moaning civil libertarians and actually enacted tougher restrictions and laws then maybe these people wouldn't think that we are such a soft target like they do now.
This lily livered attitude of we can't do anything about this because we would be infringing on their rights is BS, If they go down the path of terrorism they have vetoed their "Rights" because they are totally ignoring our "Rights" by doing so.

[Eevo]

you want more big brother laws?
you happy to give away your rights and privileges?
i think the govt already has too much say and control over our lives.

[Andy130]

Having read back through this thread this morning, I'm reminded of another quote.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

[Pickles2]

Having read back through this thread this morning, I'm reminded of another quote.

"Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"
Absolutely spot on.
Laws laws laws!!..Yep, Ya gotta have 'em,...problem is, the bad guys don't take any notice of 'em.
So, IMHO, what we need now, is ACTION.
Pickles.

[Ean Austral]

Absolutely spot on.
Laws laws laws!!..Yep, Ya gotta have 'em,...problem is, the bad guys don't take any notice of 'em.
So, IMHO, what we need now, is ACTION.
Pickles.

Will never happen - the current crop in the big house in Canberra are to busy trying to keep their job by not upsetting certain sections of the community, that they will sit on the fence and wait to hear the reaction of joe public when another from whatever side makes a statement , then jump on the bandwagon that's making the most noise.

Cant miss out on the gravy train by speaking out and doing the job they should be doing.


Cheers Ean

[Saitch]

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sects-in-australia-fringe-religious-groups-criticised-for-preying-on-vulnerable-that-have-pushed-boundaries-of-the-law/news-story/166d2fc8678a5d405cf570872aefa4ea)


Let's see now. Multiple wives, beating of woman, underage dealings, violence..............and the difference is???????????????????????

[DiscoMick]

Don't know - it's behind a paywall.

[V8Ian]

Hey fellas, let the trolls get their hard-ons somewhere else.

[manic]

There are two types of terrorist that carry out these types of attack on the general public.

1) The homegrown or lonewolf terrorist

Homegrowns are depressed, angry, mentally ill individuals who blame society/governnent around them for their perceived failures. They lack purpose. They feel exluded or hard done by. They do not want to live. Suicide is an option. They look for ways to blame society. ISIS/gihad propaganda delivers a way to die, punish, have purpose and be brave. This madness of the mind will exist in our society even if all muslims are deported and ISIS doctrine erased from the planet. The mentally ill have other ways to kill themselves and make a scene.

2) The foreign militant.

These are fighters from war torn countries. They may have had their loved ones killed, their friends locked up, tortured, homes destroyed. They take up arms. They look for vengance. They join militia . They get paid. They serve the attrocities of war through channels of propaganda to stoke the fires of anger, to recruit. They see foreign intervention. They see the flow of money, weapons, use of drones. They try and strike back.

-----------

We can put as many police out there as we like it will make little difference.

We would be safer if we were not engaged in wars abroad that do not threaten our sovreignty.

We would be more widely respected if we did not make an economy from weapons of war sold to foriegn entities engaged or likely to engage in offensive wars and oppresion.

We shoudnt be training and backing one militia in a country far far away against another militia in a country far far away.

We should be willing to sacrifice economic gain for what is right.

So what next?

[hodgo]

I some times wounder if I am too old to be on this forum as I have a very hard time trying to digest / understand the thinking of some of you young ones. May be I missed something at school

Hodgo

[manic]

What would Prime Minister Hodgo do?

[Andy130]

It's interesting to me that people don't want more laws and don't believe the Police can help.

In some respects, thats quite a defeatist attitude in dealing with this Islamic terrorism thing - which is not going to go away.

I think the laws, the police and the Judiciary play important role, and all, of course are limited in the immediate face of a terrorist attack, or in dealing with the rise of terrorism generally.

However, if you really don't believe more laws or more police will help, that only leaves one other option - an armed citizenry.

Interesting to note on this point, that former INTERPOL Secretary General Ron Noble was anti gun - certainly anti having armed citizenry - until the 2013 Nairobi shopping mall attacks - where a handful of armed citizens saved hundreds of lives against a terrorist attack.

All it takes to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun - and whilst the worst attack this country has faced was in Port Arthur, ask yourself - if just one good guy with a gun was there that day, could the outcome have been different?

LAFO's (Law Abiding Firearm Owners) have been vilified in this country for too long. Amongst their ranks are Doctors, nurses, Lawyers, past and present members of the armed forces and Police and many other fine and upstanding members of the community.

Whilst any of those titles alone should not deem a citizen safe to arm themselves in public - it does speak to the fact that the vilification and irrational fear of guns since 1996 has meant we cant have a mature conversation in this country about self defence in the face of rising terrorism.

[trout1105]

Some very good points there Andy130 [thumbsupbig]

[Andy130]

Some very good points there Andy130 [thumbsupbig]

I'm sure plenty here will disagree with you Trout1105 [biggrin] [biggrin]

[trout1105]

Who cares, I'm one of the "LAFO's" and I am quite certain that "IF" I had to I would fire on someone running amok with a knife or firearm to prevent further bloodshed.

[trog]

I am not too sure if those not trained in combat situations involving civilians would be very helpful.

[Andy130]

Found the article quoting Noble:

Exclusive: After Westgate, Interpol Chief Ponders 'Armed Citizenry' - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-westgate-interpol-chief-ponders-armed-citizenry/story?id=20637341)

[Tins]

I am not too sure if those not trained in combat situations involving civilians would be very helpful.

It's interesting that people often make calls for the involvement of the Army, when in fact they are usually the ones with the least amount of training in pretty much any scenario involving civilians on home turf. Our Police are far better trained in domestic scenarios than our Military.

I often hear calls for the SAS, for example. Anyone who has ever worn the uniform of the ARA will know just how few SAS there actually are, and how much intel and tactical discussion goes into their deployment.

The situation in the Borough Market couldn't wait for the (British) SAS. By the time they deployed there could have been upwards of 100 people dead. The Met's policy of 24/7 rolling anti terror squads would seem to have paid off this time.

[Tins]

There are two types of terrorist that carry out these types of attack on the general public.

1) The homegrown or lonewolf terrorist

Homegrowns are depressed, angry, mentally ill individuals who blame society/governnent around them for their perceived failures. They lack purpose. They feel exluded or hard done by. They do not want to live. Suicide is an option. They look for ways to blame society. ISIS/gihad propaganda delivers a way to die, punish, have purpose and be brave. This madness of the mind will exist in our society even if all muslims are deported and ISIS doctrine erased from the planet. The mentally ill have other ways to kill themselves and make a scene.

2) The foreign militant.

These are fighters from war torn countries. They may have had their loved ones killed, their friends locked up, tortured, homes destroyed. They take up arms. They look for vengance. They join militia . They get paid. They serve the attrocities of war through channels of propaganda to stoke the fires of anger, to recruit. They see foreign intervention. They see the flow of money, weapons, use of drones. They try and strike back.

-----------

We can put as many police out there as we like it will make little difference.

We would be safer if we were not engaged in wars abroad that do not threaten our sovreignty.

We would be more widely respected if we did not make an economy from weapons of war sold to foriegn entities engaged or likely to engage in offensive wars and oppresion.



We shoudnt be training and backing one militia in a country far far away against another militia in a country far far away.

We should be willing to sacrifice economic gain for what is right.

So what next?

Only two? Are you sure? Do you have definitive evidence?

[rar110]

i think you missed my point.
it wouldn't be called terrorism cause i'm white.

was it back in 2005 that british police killed an innocent cause they suspected him of having a bomb..they were wrong. how does his family feel? shoot first and ask questions later is a poor idea.

NSW Police thought Monis had a bomb and didn't shoot. That was viewed as a poor idea too.

[Eevo]

NSW Police thought Monis had a bomb and didn't shoot. That was viewed as a poor idea too.

Monis had a gun in his hand. Jean Charles de Menezes didnt.

NSW police screwed up

[rar110]

People are quite happy to judge after 2 1/2 years of thinking in retrospect with all the information about decisions made over 16 hrs with conflicting and incomplete information.

[trout1105]

I would Love to think that this sort if incident will never happen again But we all know that it Will.
What we really need to do is improve how we prevent these attacks and how we react and stop them when they do happen.
What we are doing now obviously isn't working.
We need to look at how other countries are dealing with this and adopt some of their methods that work.

[Tins]

People are quite happy to judge after 2 1/2 years of thinking in retrospect with all the information about decisions made over 16 hrs with conflicting and incomplete information.

Having just spent the last 30 mins discussing this with my ex Met neighbour, I could not agree more. I wonder what the response from all the bleeding hearts would be if if it were their brother/sister/mother/you get the picture.

Obama ( you know, Peace Prize and all that ) proved that appeasement does not work, so why do people want to keep trying it?

[Eevo]

People are quite happy to judge after 2 1/2 years of thinking in retrospect with all the information about decisions made over 16 hrs with conflicting and incomplete information.


they would of had better information if they raided monis' house at 11am!
they would of discovered the bomb was fake and been about to make better decisions.

[rar110]

they would of had better information if they raided monis' house at 11am!
they would of discovered the bomb was fake and been about to make better decisions.

Given his overtly demonstrated issue motivated grievances, propensity for violence and psychopathology, he potentially was easily exploited by extremists with IED capability.

A search of his home would have put the prospect of an IED at 50:50 at best, not discovered or known to be a false claim. Not great odds when playing with 18 lives. Would you trust the police to put your life on red or black at a roulette game?

No question, in retrospect, the NSW police would manage this differently with learnings from the past 2 1/2 years and some new resourcing and capability. But it doesn't guarantee a different outcome.

[Eevo]

Given his overtly demonstrated issue motivated grievances, propensity for violence and psychopathology, he potentially was easily exploited by extremists with IED capability.

A search of his home would have put the prospect of an IED at 50:50 at best, not discovered or known to be a false claim. Not great odds when playing with 18 lives. Would you trust the police to put your life on red or black at a roulette game?

No question, in retrospect, the NSW police would manage this differently with learnings from the past 2 1/2 years and some new resourcing and capability. But it doesn't guarantee a different outcome.


it would of lead to more information and lead to better decision making.

these are not new learnings. they are old and already in the book.

NSW police could of done more to help prevent two innocent deaths.

[Tins]

they would of had better information if they raided monis' house at 11am!
they would of discovered the bomb was fake and been about to make better decisions.

However, you're stated position earlier in this thread would have not allowed them to deal with Monis' house prior to the Lindt Cafe incident. You aren't silly, Eevo, you just don't think thing through.

[bob10]

maybe you care to share your opinion, or are you just antagonising bob? :BigThumb:

Antagonising Bob, no. Fed up with trolls like you, yes.

[Eevo]

However, you're stated position earlier in this thread would have not allowed them to deal with Monis' house prior to the Lindt Cafe incident. You aren't silly, Eevo, you just don't think thing through.

im talking about during the siege.
during the siege, police went to his house at 11am. but they didnt raid it, even though they should have.

even the coroner made mention of it. is the coroner silly too?

[Eevo]

Antagonising Bob, no. Fed up with trolls like you, yes.

i'm very sorry you feel that way.

[Tins]

even the coroner made mention of it. is the coroner silly too?

No, he thought things through.

[Eevo]

No, he thought things through.

and he's saying the same thing!

[manic]

Only two? Are you sure? Do you have definitive evidence?
Shooting from the hip. Add more if you like.

[Tins]

Shooting from the hip. Add more if you like.

No, one scattergun approach is sufficient.

[Andy130]

and he's saying the same thing!

Eevo, the coroners report is 495 pages long. It makes many observations and recommendations - and the entirety of the document effectively contradict numerous points of your argument, especially in regards to laws and policing, and unequivocally in regards of where to lay 'blame.'

I suggest you read it. If nothing else, the coroners report dismantles your argument. Fascinating that you want to reply on the same document to support your argument.


http://www.lindtinquest.justice.nsw.gov.au/Documents/findings-and-recommendations.pdf

[Eevo]

try reading it again.
conclusion 97 is what i've been talking about.

so far only only read the conclusion, finding and recommendations section.

[Andy130]

try reading it again.
conclusion 97 is what i've been talking about.

so far only only read the conclusion, finding and recommendations section.

I've read it mate, cover to cover. Takes a while.

1. The coroner does not say, as you do, that " NSW Police stuffed up" - the coroner says quite the opposite, from the guys on the ground, right up the chain of command,he does not lay blame at their feet.

2. The coroner makes several recommendations to change laws - from privacy laws to terrorism law ( you oppose law changes in your argument)

3. In regards to the house search, yes, he does say it could have been done earlier, but also acknowledges that whilst no bomb making material was found at the residence, that by itself is not proof Monis did not have one. This does not prove your arguement that the NSW police stuffed up" - and does not support an assumption that a search of the house earlier in the day would have changed the outcome of the siege.

4. The Coroner squarely lays the blame on Monis - he also says that more can be done to share information between departments and that the actions of the Police were appropriate. He does not say that laws and police are ineffective against lone actors - he talks to the point that lone actors are buy their nature, difficult to identify and manage.

[Eevo]

I've read it mate, cover to cover. Takes a while.

1. The coroner does not say, as you do, that " NSW Police stuffed up" - the coroner says quite the opposite, from the guys on the ground, right up the chain of command,he does not lay blame at their feet.

2. The coroner makes several recommendations to change laws - from privacy laws to terrorism law ( you oppose law changes in your argument)

3. In regards to the house search, yes, he does say it could have been done earlier, but also acknowledges that whilst no bomb making material was found at the residence, that by itself is not proof Monis did not have one. This does not prove your arguement that the NSW police stuffed up" - and does not support an assumption that a search of the house earlier in the day would have changed the outcome of the siege.

4. The Coroner squarely lays the blame on Monis - he also says that more can be done to share information between departments and that the actions of the Police were appropriate. He does not say that laws and police are ineffective against lone actors - he talks to the point that lone actors are buy their nature, difficult to identify and manage.


1) yet several officers careers are over due to their failure to act
2) i can understand that.
3) 99% would of changed the outcome.
4) so there was nothing the police could do to stop two innocent dying...might as well disband the force.

[Andy130]

lol...are you still going with this Eevo ? honestly mate, sometimes its best to quit whilst you're behind.

I've simply pointed out that the coroners report does not support your argument/s. I'm done mate,there is really no value in continuing this conversation. I'm sure you can go find a conspiracy forum somewhere to continue it though mate.

All the best.

[Eevo]

lol...are you still going with this Eevo ? honestly mate, sometimes its best to quit whilst you're behind.

I've simply pointed out that the coroners report does not support your argument/s. I'm done mate,there is really no value in continuing this conversation. I'm sure you can go find a conspiracy forum somewhere to continue it though mate.

All the best.


2 innocents are dead. nsw police were not able to save them.
nsw police were not able to resolve the situation without innocents being killed. thats their job.
About Us -
NSW Police Online (http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us)

the coroners report partially supports my argument. i'm still waiting to hear your argument.

what conspiracy ?

[SimmAus]

2 innocents are dead. nsw police were not able to save them.
nsw police were not able to resolve the situation without innocents being killed. thats their job.
About Us -
NSW Police Online (http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us)

the coroners report partially supports my argument. i'm still waiting to hear your argument.

what conspiracy ?

This thread reminds me of something:

Argument Clinic - Monty Python's The Flying Circus - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y)

you can pick your own characters...

[Eevo]

i think a few people have been watching this one


John Cleese - How To Irritate People 1968 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoSu6AUC-7k)

[Andy130]

This thread reminds me of something:

Argument Clinic - Monty Python's The Flying Circus - YouTube (https://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y)

you can pick your own characters...

its a fair cop [biggrin]

[Ausfree]

I some times wounder if I am too old to be on this forum as I have a very hard time trying to digest / understand the thinking of some of you young ones. May be I missed something at school

Hodgo


Hey Hodgo, I'm with you mate. That's why I rarely take part in these types of conversations.[thumbsupbig]

[Ancient Mariner]

Hey Hodgo, I'm with you mate. That's why I rarely take part in these types of conversations.[thumbsupbig]


Yeah more than a few not worth feeding:soapbox:

[PAT303]

If so many of you don't like Eevo's replies why are you replying?.We do have freedom of speech in this country,if you don't like what someone is saying don't listen,works for me. Pat

[trout1105]

If so many of you don't like Eevo's replies why are you replying?.We do have freedom of speech in this country,if you don't like what someone is saying don't listen,works for me. Pat

+1

[Eevo]

better yet. add me to your ignore list.

[Ancient Mariner]

I didn't see Evos name mentioned I class anyone born after 1945 as young We have over 5000 active members on the forum and less than a dozen have contributed to the
Kenley to Canada fund So yeah there are a few not worth feeding:soapbox:

[trout1105]

I didn't see Evos name mentioned I class anyone born after 1945 as young We have over 5000 active members on the forum and less than a dozen have contributed to the
Kenley to Canada fund So yeah there are a few not worth feeding https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/misc/progress.gif



Hmmm
Maybe some of or members that you consider "Not Worth Feeding" may have used whatever disposable income they have to help support the widow of the Cop that was Murdered the other day or they simply don't consider the "Kenly to Canada" that a worthwhile enough cause.[bigwhistle]

[bob10]

I didn't see Evos name mentioned I class anyone born after 1945 as young We have over 5000 active members on the forum and less than a dozen have contributed to the
Kenley to Canada fund So yeah there are a few not worth feeding:soapbox:

You are up yourself, mate. Perhaps I should ask for donations every time my family has a problem, like paying for cancer treatment, or looking after a broken veteran. Or more. I appreciate what the person has done, and congratulations are in order. But don't come that crap, mate.

[Ancient Mariner]

[QUOTE=bob10;2683087]You are up yourself, mate. Perhaps I should ask for donations every time my family has a problem, like paying for cancer treatment, or looking after a broken veteran. Or more. I appreciate what the person has done, and congratulations are in order. But don't come that crap, mate.[/QUO

Don't get your Knickers in a knot plenty of worthwhile causes out there and I respect those who give time and money to them .Just an attempt to get people to have a look as it seems to be bogged down

AM