Will they ever learn?

[V8Ian]

The most basic rule about towing, winching or any activity that puts rope under load. Tragic.

Man dies in beach towing incident - 9news.com.au (http://www.9news.com.au/national/2017/06/16/00/46/man-dies-in-beach-towing-incident)

[bob10]

26 years old, probably brought up on " give it the berries " 4WDriving from you know where. I believe every person who purchases a real 4 WD should have a 4WD course included in the cost of purchase. Only way they will learn.

[V8Ian]

Theoretically a good idea Bob, but most fourbies change hands on the used market, both yards and private sales.

[bob10]

Good point Ian

[Bytemrk]

The secondhand market might sink your suggestion Bob.... but the fundamental idea is still right..


Somehow these newbies need training... its' scary how many have no understanding what a decent recovery point is ... or think the starting point to a recovery is lots of right boot...

[Eevo]

plenty of soccer mum who have a 4wd and dont go off road

[Tank]

26 years old, probably brought up on " give it the berries " 4WDriving from you know where. I believe every person who purchases a real 4 WD should have a 4WD course included in the cost of purchase. Only way they will learn.

Bob, who's going to teach them?
Most of the "experts" on the TV shows and magazines and U Tube, from what I've seen, wouldn't have a clue, the blind teaching the blind, Regards Frank.

[Tins]

Bob, who's going to teach them?
Most of the "experts" on the TV shows and magazines and U Tube, from what I've seen, wouldn't have a clue, the blind teaching the blind, Regards Frank.

Indeed.



https://youtu.be/KEYaTscCDIg

[rangieman]

Indeed.



https://youtu.be/KEYaTscCDIg
Yep what a complete pair of tosser`s did you notice not even wearing seatbelts:bat:
And honestly what a bunch tool`s tow a trailer like that off road with no consideration for the environment :wallbash:
No wonder why 4wdriver`s get a bad reputation with idiots like this on public Tv:soapbox:

[Vern]

No cops out there to fine them for not having belts on though chris😉

[rangieman]

No cops out there to fine them for not having belts on though chris😉
It is more for the safety factor we are led to believe [wink11]and also on public TV [bighmmm]

[Tins]

Yep what a complete pair of tosser`s did you notice not even wearing seatbelts:bat:
And honestly what a bunch tool`s tow a trailer like that off road with no consideration for the environment :wallbash:
No wonder why 4wdriver`s get a bad reputation with idiots like this on public Tv:soapbox:

"Yeah, but hey, we was making money! WTF is wrong with that!?!?"

There are so many things wrong in that video it beggars belief. Thought you all would like it.

1; Why were these allegedly experienced fishermen unaware of the tide?

2; Why, if it had a defective brake line as stated, was the 79 series even there?

3; Why did they expect the 79 series, brakes or no, in soft sand, not to be pulled towards the HiLux which was axle deep or more in very wet sand?

4; Why did 'Simon', in the 79 series, turn across the 'dune' as he tried to snatch the other car?

5; Why, after they got the Hilux to move maybe three metres, did they not shorten the snatch? What, there were three straps?

One word answer to all of that. Panic. Oh, except for the brake line thing. That is stupidity, no more, no less. Bring it out, maybe. Continue on? No.

I'm sure you can all find more questions to ask. These blokes make money for doing this....

[Vern]

There was a recall on the 79 series for defective brakelines. May be they hadn't had the recall done and it became an issue whilst there.

[Ancient Mariner]

"Yeah, but hey, we was making money! WTF is wrong with that!?!?"

There are so many things wrong in that video it beggars belief. Thought you all would like it.

1; Why were these allegedly experienced fishermen unaware of the tide?

2; Why, if it had a defective brake line as stated, was the 79 series even there?

3; Why did they expect the 79 series, brakes or no, in soft sand, not to be pulled towards the HiLux which was axle deep or more in very wet sand?

4; Why did 'Simon', in the 79 series, turn across the 'dune' as he tried to snatch the other car?

5; Why, after they got the Hilux to move maybe three metres, did they not shorten the snatch? What, there were three straps?

One word answer to all of that. Panic. Oh, except for the brake line thing. That is stupidity, no more, no less. Bring it out, maybe. Continue on? No.

I'm sure you can all find more questions to ask. These blokes make money for doing this....

I like the show and in their defence
1- The crossing was for the cameraman who missed their previos crossing so a quick across and back with water in the gutter a bonus .Tide not aissue at that point

2- So it had a brake problem What would you do ? Do a Puma and call up a tilt tray or seal it and carry on bearing in mind driving in that flat coastal country with even no brakes is not a big issue
3- The 79 properly dug in with some brakes.Jason with some digging, max tracs and some assistance worth while trying the winch
4- Probably to get to more tractable ground but not the best option
5- Why would you shorten the snatch strap? The closer you get to the vegetation the more stable the ground

AM

[Tins]

I like the show and in their defence
1- The crossing was for the cameraman who missed their previos crossing so a quick across and back with water in the gutter a bonus .Tide not aissue at that point

2- So it had a brake problem What would you do ? Do a Puma and call up a tilt tray or seal it and carry on bearing in mind driving in that flat coastal country with even no brakes is not a big issue
3- The 79 properly dug in with some brakes.Jason with some digging, max tracs and some assistance worth while trying the winch
4- Probably to get to more tractable ground but not the best option
5- Why would you shorten the snatch strap? The closer you get to the vegetation the more stable the ground

AM

The show is fine, if you like that sort of thing.

1.So, they decided to do another crossing for the camera. Maybe that was not a good idea. The tide became an issue minutes later, which they should have foreseen.

2. A defective vehicle is a defective vehicle. They have a support crew, they could have fixed it. Have a look at the load the 79 had, and was towing.

3. It was clearly stated in the vid that the reason the 79 couldn't winch was the brake problem.I have looked at that vid many times, and I see no evidence of the 79 digging in. They don't even show the winching part. Maybe you have seen more in the actual show.

4. Indeed.

5. The whole purpose of 'snatching' is to jerk the car into motion, using the elasticity of the strap to impart some energy into the stuck car. The multiple straps defeat that purpose, as the energy is absorbed by the straps themselves, which can be seen in that vid. If reaching the vegetation was the goal, I ask again, why did he turn?

Sorry, but it was all pretty unprofessional, and someone could have been killed. The video reinforces Tank's point.

[Tins]

There was a recall on the 79 series for defective brakelines. May be they hadn't had the recall done and it became an issue whilst there.

A recall like that would have been a mandatory one. No excuse. Toyota would have notified all the owners. They even follow up on vehicles sold second hand on safety recalls.

[Ancient Mariner]

The show is fine, if you like that sort of thing.

1.So, they decided to do another crossing for the camera. Maybe that was not a good idea. The tide became an issue minutes later, which they should have foreseen.

2. A defective vehicle is a defective vehicle. They have a support crew, they could have fixed it. Have a look at the load the 79 had, and was towing.

3. It was clearly stated in the vid that the reason the 79 couldn't winch was the brake problem.I have looked at that vid many times, and I see no evidence of the 79 digging in. They don't even show the winching part. Maybe you have seen more in the actual show.

4. Indeed.

5. The whole purpose of 'snatching' is to jerk the car into motion, using the elasticity of the strap to impart some energy into the stuck car. The multiple straps defeat that purpose, as the energy is absorbed by the straps themselves, which can be seen in that vid. If reaching the vegetation was the goal, I ask again, why did he turn?

Sorry, but it was all pretty unprofessional, and someone could have been killed. The video reinforces Tank's point.
If you can't agree a snatch with 3- 4 straps from better ground is better than 1 or 2 from crap ground you probably agree with Tank on 2 to 1 snatch block winching not that we want to go there again:wallbash:

AM

[Tins]

If you can't agree a snatch with 3- 4 straps from better ground is better than 1 or 2 from crap ground you probably agree with Tank on 2 to 1 snatch block winching not that we want to go there again:wallbash:

AM

I am not aware of Tank's theories there, AM. Maybe I should go and look, to see if you're right. However, the 3 -4 strap argument would be better put if those guys had actually got to better ground. Simon did once, briefly, and I still don't understand why he chose to turn on the very next attempt, and thus tip his vehicle over.

Please note: I'm not saying I could have done better, given the circumstances ( well, apart from the fact that if you are going to snatch, do it in a straight line, obviously ), but I would have tried not to put myself in that position in the first place.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/06/155.jpg

[Tank]

As you don't agree with my posts on gaining a Mechanical advantage with a snatch block, and BTW they are NOT my Theories or Ideas, they are straight from 40 + years of rigging and straight from the riggers guide, of which you seem to ignore because you're too ignorant to read it and learn. If I'm and all of the Published literature are so wrong why don't you show us how you get a mechanical advantage of 2 from a stationary snatch block.
If you can't then it might pay not to talk **** behind my back, if you have a problem and you really believe that a snatch block can do what you say then come out and prove it or shut the **** up, Regards Frank.




If you can't agree a snatch with 3- 4 straps from better ground is better than 1 or 2 from crap ground you probably agree with Tank on 2 to 1 snatch block winching not that we want to go there again:wallbash:

AM

[trout1105]

There was obviously an element of "Panic" when Jason got stuck that time.
Ideally Simon should have hooked up to that tree he used to get his truck back upright using his winch and an extension strap/straps and then get Jason to use his rear winch with a snatch block off the back of Simons truck to pull himself out.

[Wraithe]

Damn, I missed most of this...

I have noticed all these 4WD shows seem to make the weekend 4wd campers think they are experts...(not aimed at you Tank, riggers and crane drivers are mostly very good, if not they dont last)...

I have a niece and her husband, they deck there 4WD's out with all the gadgets and dig holes with there big fat 4WD tractor tyres. I continually give them heaps about taking the deepest, roughest and most stupid route when going bush. They tell me how hard it is to get to some spots they go, yet my son took me to a spot they love and we went all the way to there camping spot, had a boring look around and drove out that arvo, in a commodore ute...

I know they would struggle going to where the landrover takes me, already proven my road tyres on a stock landrover can make a Nissan Patrol, big 37" muddies, 5 " lift kit, turbo'd with all the gadgets, look like a road only vehicle...

I always get picked on for my non modified Landrover and get told it wont go anywhere they go... It really has less to do with the vehicle than the ability to judge your ground, understand the vehicle, think about the approach/exit and possibly a lot to do with not trying to be a hero but get from A to B... Actually "Common Dog F%^&" or common sense for those not fluent in Australian...

Any truck driver that does paddock work can tell you how fast you can bog a truck but how hard it is to get out... Paddock work with roadtrains takes even more common sense and the one thing I teach people about taking trucks into paddocks, slow and steady.. One thing I will pass on here, (remember trucks where mostly manuals and I didnt drive auto trucks), IDLE! If you go into a paddock thats soft, idle, who cares how long it takes to get from one side to the other, but get there not get bogged... I would go up greasy rises while idling and watch others go backwards... Tyre speed needs to be slow enough to get traction thus you go forward, increase that speed and you loose traction and stop... Sand is the same, slow and steady and if its rocky you go slow so you dont shake the **** out of everything....

Pulling out is generally heavy pull only but snatch straps seem to do well, but like all vehicles, a heavy anchor point... Even trucks have weak points to be careful of... I have never used a snatch strap on a truck or 4wd so cant comment on there use but Tank can tell you, chains snap easily so you take pressure up slowly and then load them...

I feel sorry for the young fella that died, he didnt learn the lesson and he is gone, now his family and friends suffer...

[Tins]

There was obviously an element of "Panic" when Jason got stuck that time.
Ideally Simon should have hooked up to that tree he used to get his truck back upright using his winch and an extension strap/straps and then get Jason to use his rear winch with a snatch block off the back of Simons truck to pull himself out.

Pretty much the way I saw it.

[Tins]

Damn, I missed most of this...

I have noticed all these 4WD shows seem to make the weekend 4wd campers think they are experts...(not aimed at you Tank, riggers and crane drivers are mostly very good, if not they dont last)...

I have a niece and her husband, they deck there 4WD's out with all the gadgets and dig holes with there big fat 4WD tractor tyres. I continually give them heaps about taking the deepest, roughest and most stupid route when going bush. They tell me how hard it is to get to some spots they go, yet my son took me to a spot they love and we went all the way to there camping spot, had a boring look around and drove out that arvo, in a commodore ute...

I know they would struggle going to where the landrover takes me, already proven my road tyres on a stock landrover can make a Nissan Patrol, big 37" muddies, 5 " lift kit, turbo'd with all the gadgets, look like a road only vehicle...

I always get picked on for my non modified Landrover and get told it wont go anywhere they go... It really has less to do with the vehicle than the ability to judge your ground, understand the vehicle, think about the approach/exit and possibly a lot to do with not trying to be a hero but get from A to B... Actually "Common Dog F%^&" or common sense for those not fluent in Australian...

Any truck driver that does paddock work can tell you how fast you can bog a truck but how hard it is to get out... Paddock work with roadtrains takes even more common sense and the one thing I teach people about taking trucks into paddocks, slow and steady.. One thing I will pass on here, (remember trucks where mostly manuals and I didnt drive auto trucks), IDLE! If you go into a paddock thats soft, idle, who cares how long it takes to get from one side to the other, but get there not get bogged... I would go up greasy rises while idling and watch others go backwards... Tyre speed needs to be slow enough to get traction thus you go forward, increase that speed and you loose traction and stop... Sand is the same, slow and steady and if its rocky you go slow so you dont shake the **** out of everything....

Pulling out is generally heavy pull only but snatch straps seem to do well, but like all vehicles, a heavy anchor point... Even trucks have weak points to be careful of... I have never used a snatch strap on a truck or 4wd so cant comment on there use but Tank can tell you, chains snap easily so you take pressure up slowly and then load them...

I feel sorry for the young fella that died, he didnt learn the lesson and now his family and friends suffer...

Have to agree with all of that. One thing I miss on modern cars is the hand throttle. Just above idle, feet away from the pedals and a stock 4WD will walk almost anywhere. My first ever Civvie 4WD was a G60 Patrol on Jeep Service tyres, and I could get it almost anywhere this way ( sand, not so much ). It's the way the Army taught us back then.

Oh, snatch blocks? I learnt to use them on one of these, and the mechanical advantage is undoubtable.

[Ancient Mariner]

Have to agree with all of that. One thing I miss on modern cars is the hand throttle. Just above idle, feet away from the pedals and a stock 4WD will walk almost anywhere. My first ever Civvie 4WD was a G60 Patrol on Jeep Service tyres, and I could get it almost anywhere this way ( sand, not so much ). It's the way the Army taught us back then.

Oh, snatch blocks? I learnt to use them on one of these, and the mechanical advantage is undoubtable.
You have just bogged the 6x6 .From your winch you run the cable to a bloody big gumtree and via Tree protector[bighmmm] hook it up .You then start winching and bugger shear pin breaks .You fix the shear pin attach your single snatch block to the gum tree run the cable thru the block and back to your RP on the bumper.You then start winching pull yourself out and don't break the shear pin Luck or MA ?

AM

[trout1105]

I enjoy watching all4adventure and other 4WD shows but they can and do show themselves doing some stupid stuff.
Many of the places these people get themselves into strife in are actually Not that difficult to travel.
I imagine that getting stuck adds some "Drama" to the show and adds the opportunity to "Plug" their sponsors But by doing this it will put off some people from going into these areas unnecessarily.

[Tins]

You have just bogged the 6x6 .From your winch you run the cable to a bloody big gumtree and via Tree protector[bighmmm] hook it up .You then start winching and bugger shear pin breaks .You fix the shear pin attach your single snatch block to the gum tree run the cable thru the block and back to your RP on the bumper.You then start winching pull yourself out and don't break the shear pin Luck or MA ?

AM

If an M543 broke a shear pin pulling itself out of a bog then some lazy bugger hadn't installed the correct pin. The thing is rated way beyond that. That thing, using double or even quad turns would pull an M113A1 APC out of mud over the turret without raising a sweat. Without the extra MA it wouldn't budge it. Obviously you don't want to exceed the rated pull, but it is designed for it.

[Ancient Mariner]

If an M543 broke a shear pin pulling itself out of a bog then some lazy bugger hadn't installed the correct pin. The thing is rated way beyond that. That thing, using double or even quad turns would pull an M113A1 APC out of mud over the turret without raising a sweat. Without the extra MA it wouldn't budge it. Obviously you don't want to exceed the rated pull, but it is designed for it.
OK it was only an example .Change it to a Toyota .Same senario did he get a MA or not?

AM

[Redback]

Well if you think they are idiots, wait till you see "Patriot Games" the new show from the guys from Patriot Campers[bigwhistle]

[Tins]

OK it was only an example .Change it to a Toyota .Same senario did he get a MA or not?

AM

I'm really not sure I understand the question. It is simple physics. There is "force in", that is, how much force I am applying, and "force out", which is what is applied to the load. One simple moving pulley, as opposed to a fixed pulley, halves the amount of "force in" required for the same "force out". This is easily demonstrated, and is taught these days in primary school.

MA = Force out divided by force in. Pretty simple, really.

This vid as a little long, but demonstrates it nicely.


https://youtu.be/vM24klVyxFk

This one's a bit annoying, but the demo is clear when you get to it.


https://youtu.be/73vnrGYmS5U

The principle is exactly the same as you have in gearboxes and transfer cases.

Apology if you know all this. Maybe rephrase your question.

[DeanoH]

It's a tragedy that the young fellow was killed in that recovery 'accident', ignorance of safe recovery procedures is very common and I partly blame the tossers in the 'how not to unbog your Landcruiser video'. These two, lets call them T1 and T2 put themselves up as the macho sleeves ripped out off road road experts. Nothing could be further from the truth, but unfortunately people watch their videos and reckon they know what they're doing.

This is the second T1 & T2 video I've seen. In the first these two idiots were traveling down a bush track with a large quad bike mounted across the tray and were quite surprised when they managed to trash the quads guards and lights on overhanging trees. Their solution, T1 gets the chainsaw out and starts to demolish the bush to get the vehicle and quad combo driven by T2 through, environmentally conscious these two tossers are not. A more sensible solution would have been to unload the quad and driven it out or to have mounted it 'north-south' in the first place. I particularly liked the video of chainsaw expert T1 walking down the track chainsaw over shoulder and holding it by the uncovered bar and chain. :o This was soon followed by bogging the heavily loaded vehicle in soft sand, pity they didn't let the tyres down before venturing onto the soft sand or prior to their winch recovery even though the commentary states they did so prior to recovery. I guess they forgot [wink11] but added it at the editing stage.

The second video speaks for itself, you didn't need to be a Rhodes Scholar to know it was all about to go pear shaped as (T1 or T2) cleverly goes right hand down just before he can get better purchase on the tussocks. Hopefully he wasn't injured.

Idiots like these two who portray themselves as competent off road travelers set a very bad example to to the viewing audience who may try to emulate their antics thinking it is the right thing to do. Irresponsibly stupid IMO.

Deano.

[Ancient Mariner]

I'm really not sure I understand the question. It is simple physics. There is "force in", that is, how much force I am applying, and "force out", which is what is applied to the load. One simple moving pulley, as opposed to a fixed pulley, halves the amount of "force in" required for the same "force out". This is easily demonstrated, and is taught these days in primary school.

MA = Force out divided by force in. Pretty simple, really.

This vid as a little long, but demonstrates it nicely.


https://youtu.be/vM24klVyxFk

This one's a bit annoying, but the demo is clear when you get to it.


https://youtu.be/73vnrGYmS5U

The principle is exactly the same as you have in gearboxes and transfer cases.

Apology if you know all this. Maybe rephrase your question.
?Oh Hey There!? 19: Winching: Load Reduction, Single Snatch Block - YouTube (https://youtu.be/uC_cUKQznhI) see if this works

[Tins]

?Oh Hey There!? 19: Winching: Load Reduction, Single Snatch Block - YouTube (https://youtu.be/uC_cUKQznhI) see if this works

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

This one is quite childish in a way, but get's the point across.


https://youtu.be/yfAdmRJDKIc

[Wraithe]

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.




One thing about your original reply in regards to these comments, John...

You pointed to the M113A1, and reply was quote about a Toyota ?

Mmm I think someone dont know the weight of an M113A1 in regards to a cruiser...

You should have pointed out that an M113A1 weighs around 11 tonne and the cruiser would be lucky to break 3 tonne fully loaded...

You'll only get a head ache banging your head against the wall...

Your reply to my post, hand throttles in the Army F3's and F5's and Landy's where necessary due to them being petrol's, thus idle has no torque... Most petrols of old, needed the hand throttle(carbies)...
New petrols can maintain some torque as the fuel system and computer will apply some throttle to stop stalling...

Mechanical Diesels on the other hand don't directly connect to the throttle but connect to a governor, so when idling if load increases, so does fuel and thus it will maintain power to match the governor setting...(internally it has a rack that is controlled by governor and throttle controls governor position(basic way of explaining, there are different pumps but principle is the same)...

Modern diesels are like modern petrols, so they are simular to each other...

I do miss the toys we could drive in the Army... My toy had tracks and a better suspension than the M113's and also weighed nearly 4 times as much... What civies dont know is the damn thing floated on mud, even tho the tracks would hang and work like paddles... Not bad for a brick in water...

[Wraithe]

Russell Coight... Love his show...

I learn new things all the time, must practice his boat launching techniques...

I dont think he does very well with the girls tho...

Now he has some real good ideas about how to remove bumper bars and collect spare parts...

[Ancient Mariner]

I guess you missed the bit about a fixed pulley. All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

This one is quite childish in a way, but get's the point across.


https://youtu.be/yfAdmRJDKIc
You and Tank are right a fixed pulley gives no MA only a change of direction So I will change the senario for the thick amongst us .I have bogged my defender .I run out the winch cable and instead of using a tree protector I use my 34000 lb kinetic rope to anchor the SB.The rope goes from the winch thru the block and back to the defender .I start winching and the block moves (moving block) 2 to 1.I reach the elastic limit of my kinetic rope and the defender starts moving.The block has changed from a moving to a fixed but for every 2m I winch in I only move 1m .What ???? If you cant see this you have made tank a happy man .(Some one as thick as him)

Bye Bye
AM

[trout1105]

All a fixed pulley is is a change in direction. It gives no MA whatsoever.

I didn't know that, I always just assumed that adding a single snatch block to the mix gave me a MA.
How I now read this is that the snatch block should be attached to the bogged vehicle and either pulled out by another vehicles winch or two snatch blocks are employed to enable the bogged vehicle to use its own winch.

[Tank]

You have just bogged the 6x6 .From your winch you run the cable to a bloody big gumtree and via Tree protector[bighmmm] hook it up .You then start winching and bugger shear pin breaks .You fix the shear pin attach your single snatch block to the gum tree run the cable thru the block and back to your RP on the bumper.You then start winching pull yourself out and don't break the shear pin Luck or MA ?

AM

Yes MA, but from the fact that you have twice the amount of cable out off the winch drum, the closer to the winch drum surface the easier it is to winch. Winches are rated for line pull and the highest line pull is with the winch drum almost empty, a drum with say 10 layers of rope will have about half the pulling power as a winch with one layer of rope.
The snatch block actually adds to the load via friction on the pulley shaft.
I really can't understand why you can't (or don't want to) grasp the simple laws of Physics and the simple FACT is that there is NO MA from an anchored,i.e. NOT MOVING snatch block, where are these magical powers coming from with YOUR snatch block, all an anchored snatch block does is change the line of pull to disadvantage, if you and others can't see that then that's your problem, not mine, Regards Frank.

[Tins]

You and Tank are right a fixed pulley gives no MA only a change of direction So I will change the senario for the thick amongst us .I have bogged my defender .I run out the winch cable and instead of using a tree protector I use my 34000 lb kinetic rope to anchor the SB.The rope goes from the winch thru the block and back to the defender .I start winching and the block moves (moving block) 2 to 1.I reach the elastic limit of my kinetic rope and the defender starts moving.The block has changed from a moving to a fixed but for every 2m I winch in I only move 1m .What ???? If you cant see this you have made tank a happy man .(Some one as thick as him)

Bye Bye
AM

If you can't express your argument clearly, and without insult, I think you're a bit premature in calling me names, AM. I was having a friendly discussion, or so I thought. You haven't argued any of the points raised by me or the very simple vids I posted.

Let me know when you are interested in a debate and not mud slinging. I'll still be here.

Oh, and who brought kinetic rope into this?

[Tins]

I didn't know that, I always just assumed that adding a single snatch block to the mix gave me a MA.
How I now read this is that the snatch block should be attached to the bogged vehicle and either pulled out by another vehicles winch or two snatch blocks are employed to enable the bogged vehicle to use its own winch.

The simples vid I posted shows it clearly. The newtons required to lift the block are exactly the same on a straight lift as they are when the line is passed over a fixed pulley. It's all there to see for those who care to look.

[trout1105]

The simples vid I posted shows it clearly. The newtons required to lift the block are exactly the same on a straight lift as they are when the line is passed over a fixed pulley. It's all there to see for those who care to look.

That vid explained the principle with absolute clarity, Thanks for posting it because I am now better informed [thumbsupbig]
As far as people being "Thick" I propose that these amongst us that refuse to accept that something that we consider as a Fact is not correct and learn from someone else that has proven otherwise is indeed the "Thick" people.

[Ancient Mariner]

That vid explained the principle with absolute clarity, Thanks for posting it because I am now better informed [thumbsupbig]
As far as people being "Thick" I propose that these amongst us that refuse to accept that something that we consider as a Fact is not correct and learn from someone else that has proven otherwise is indeed the "Thick" people.
Have a look at Hand VS electric winch Solo traveling thead from the search panel bottom of page 2nd drawing Runner 2-1 MA:wallbash:

[vnx205]

Can we agree that one of these, A,B,C,or D closely resembles the situation where a pulley is attached to an anchor and one end of the cable is wrapped around the winch drum and the other is attached to a point on the same vehicle as the one with the winch?
If so, which one would you nominate?
125402

[Wraithe]

Make it easier to understand fella's...

Tie pulley block to rafter in shed...(make sure its a strong beam)

One person holds a rope one side, another hold rope other side... now try and pull other person off ground, heaviest person wins.... no extra power from using block...

Trout, knows this one as I too... We have done our own kills and you use a single pulley block some times on sheep/goats etc for lift... on bigger stuff, either loader/tractor or blocks in combo...


PS Who said "If you have enough rope and pulleys you could move the moon"??

[vnx205]

The simples vid I posted shows it clearly. The newtons required to lift the block are exactly the same on a straight lift as they are when the line is passed over a fixed pulley. It's all there to see for those who care to look.

That is true, however, it is irrelevant because that fixed pulley scenario is not the same as the one where the line goes from the winch, around the pulley and is then reattached to the vehicle.

[vnx205]

Make it easier to understand fella's...

Tie pulley block to rafter in shed...(make sure its a strong beam)

One person holds a rope one side, another hold rope other side... now try and pull other person off ground, heaviest person wins.... no extra power from using block...

Trout, knows this one as I too... We have done our own kills and you use a single pulley block some times on sheep/goats etc for lift... on bigger stuff, either loader/tractor or blocks in combo...


PS Who said "If you have enough rope and pulleys you could move the moon"??

What you have described is not the same arrangement that you have if the rope goes around the pulley and back to the same object or person doing the pulling.

That is not the same arrangement as winching a vehicle with a snatch block.

Back in your shed, use a pulley tied to the rafter to reduce friction. Stand in a loop in one end of the rope and pull on the other end, Your arms only need a bit more than half your weigh to lift yourself off the ground.

That is the same as a vehicle winching itself.

[trout1105]

Trout, knows this one as I too... We have done our own kills and you use a single pulley block some times on sheep/goats etc for lift... on bigger stuff, either loader/tractor or blocks in combo...



An easy fix is to use one of them winches you find on boat trailers, It makes the job of lifting a carcass soo much easier.
I just wielded one onto one of the shed posts and ran the cable through a pulley back down to the floor [thumbsupbig]

[Ancient Mariner]

Try this From your winch run cable to a block at your clothes hoist and back to your R Point On that leg put tape 2m towards vehicle from pulley on the rope .Then walk back to your winch put some tape 2m out from your winch Now winch that 2m in go back to the other mark and measure how far from the pulley.If its not aprox 1m you cant read a tape measure or have pulled the clothes hoist outa the ground:Rolling: report back!

AM

[Tins]

That is true, however, it is irrelevant because that fixed pulley scenario is not the same as the one where the line goes from the winch, around the pulley and is then reattached to the vehicle.

Not irrelevant at all. It is precisely the point. The argument has been put that a single, fixed pulley can provide MA, which it demonstrably cannot, or that a moving pulley does NOT give MA, when it demonstrably does. The video of the winch to fixed pulley and back to the car even SAYS that there is no MA.

[Tins]

Try this From your winch run cable to a block at your clothes hoist and back to your R Point On that leg put tape 2m towards vehicle from pulley on the rope .Then walk back to your winch put some tape 2m out from your winch Now winch that 2m in go back to the other mark and measure how far from the pulley.If its not aprox 1m you cant read a tape measure or have pulled the clothes hoist outa the ground:Rolling: report back!

AM

I don't need to. The video which was clearly aimed at teaching this stuff to people who know nothing about it clearly demonstrate the point. If you are unwilling to even look at them and learn something then I see little point in discussing it further with you, as you seem to be incapable of debating without insult, which says to me that you have lost.

[bee utey]

Not irrelevant at all. It is precisely the point. The argument has been put that a single, fixed pulley can provide MA, which it demonstrably cannot, or that a moving pulley does NOT give MA, when it demonstrably does. The video of the winch to fixed pulley and back to the car even SAYS that there is no MA.

What counts is the relative movement between the pulley and the vehicle, not some arbitrary notion of something being fixed. As has been pointed out numberless times, if you are "x" metres from the pulley anchor, you need 2 times "x" metres of rope to hook it up. When you have would 2 times "x" metres onto your winch drum, you have moved "x" metres closer to the anchor. Therefore, you have gained a MA of 2. A blind man could see that. [smilebigeye]

[Tins]

What counts is the relative movement between the pulley and the vehicle, not some arbitrary notion of something being fixed. As has been pointed out numberless times, if you are "x" metres from the pulley anchor, you need 2 times "x" metres of rope to hook it up. When you have would 2 times "x" metres onto your winch drum, you have moved "x" metres closer to the anchor. Therefore, you have gained a MA of 2. A blind man could see that. [smilebigeye]

I guess that only proves that this blind man is better at understanding simple principles clearly demonstrated in videos than some others.

[vnx205]

Not irrelevant at all. It is precisely the point. The argument has been put that a single, fixed pulley can provide MA, which it demonstrably cannot, or that a moving pulley does NOT give MA, when it demonstrably does. The video of the winch to fixed pulley and back to the car even SAYS that there is no MA.

That may be what the argument has become in some people's minds. However what started this discussion several threads ago (yes, I mean several threads ago, not several posts ago) was whether the load on the winch could be reduced by attaching a snatch block to a tree.

For reasons that bee uty mentioned, converting that original discussion to a discussion about mechanical advantage has just confused some people.

PS. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question in post #43

[Tins]

That may be what the argument has become in some people's minds. However what started this discussion several threads ago (yes, I mean several threads ago, not several posts ago) was whether the load on the winch could be reduced by attaching a snatch block to a tree.

For reasons that bee uty mentioned, converting that original discussion to a discussion about mechanical advantage has just confused some people.

PS. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question in post #43

This thread was hijacked by this:

If you can't agree a snatch with 3- 4 straps from better ground is better than 1 or 2 from crap ground you probably agree with Tank on 2 to 1 snatch block winching not that we want to go there again:wallbash:

AM

[Tins]

PS. I'm still waiting for an answer to my question in post #43

An answer from who, exactly?

[BMKal]

What counts is the relative movement between the pulley and the vehicle, not some arbitrary notion of something being fixed. As has been pointed out numberless times, if you are "x" metres from the pulley anchor, you need 2 times "x" metres of rope to hook it up. When you have would 2 times "x" metres onto your winch drum, you have moved "x" metres closer to the anchor. Therefore, you have gained a MA of 2. A blind man could see that. [smilebigeye]

Another way of showing it .....................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/172.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/41qc9sluz/)

[bee utey]

I guess that only proves that this blind man is better at understanding simple principles clearly demonstrated in videos than some others.

I have an old hand winch that I bought as a teenager to pull engines and shift heavy lumps at ground level. Sometimes you used it winch end moving, sometimes winch end fixed. Does it know the difference between a fixed hook and a moving hook? Naah, just waggle the handle and the distance between the hooks shortens by half the rate the cable is wound up. [bigwhistle]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/125411d1499061820-will-they-ever-learn-wench.jpg

[Tins]

I have an old hand winch that I bought as a teenager to pull engines and shift heavy lumps at ground level. Sometimes you used it winch end moving, sometimes winch end fixed. Does it know the difference between a fixed hook and a moving hook? Naah, just waggle the handle and the distance between the hooks shortens by half the rate the cable is wound up. [bigwhistle]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/125411d1499061820-will-they-ever-learn-wench.jpg

Gone away from the point, at least the point I was interested in, which was the single fixed pulley. As I said to AM, he needed to reframe his question. Since then it has degenerated into a slanging match. I concede I misinterpreted the point.

[vnx205]

An answer from who, exactly?


Anyone. I'm not fussy. There seemed to be quite a few people who wanted to become involved in the discussion. I was hoping at least one of them would respond. :)

[Ancient Mariner]

Gone away from the point, at least the point I was interested in, which was the single fixed pulley. As I said to AM, he needed to reframe his question. Since then it has degenerated into a slanging match. I concede I misinterpreted the point.
Did you even look at the link to the video in post 32 same as BMKal 2-1 ilistration and what I described in the 6x6 hook up .You were to interested in imparting your knowledge of shearpins and how much it would pull.No wonder I got cranky I did say we shoudn't go here[bigsad]

AM

[vnx205]

I think some of the problem has been the fixation (pun intended) on the word "fixed".

Should that be "fixed in relation to the position of the sun", "fixed in relation to the winch" or "fixed in relation to something else entirely"?

Almost all of the diagrams and videos illustrating a single pulley don't have the end of the cable attached to the same object as the winch. So it is understandable that most people get the impression that there is no advantage when the pulley is attached to the tree.

It becomes quite a different situation when the cable is attached to the same object as the winch.

[Eevo]

no pulleys needed


125412

[Tins]

I think some of the problem has been the fixation (pun intended) on the word "fixed".

Should that be "fixed in relation to the position of the sun", "fixed in relation to the winch" or "fixed in relation to something else entirely"?

Almost all of the diagrams and videos illustrating a single pulley don't have the end of the cable attached to the same object as the winch. So it is understandable that most people get the impression that there is no advantage when the pulley is attached to the tree.

It becomes quite a different situation when the cable is attached to the same object as the winch.

True. Where I've been at odds with this discussion is exactly that. If the pulley wend on a tree, and the other end comes back to another tree, then the pulley would be deemed to be 'fixed', and no MA is there. When it comes back to the car doing the winching, then it would be deemed to be moving, in an engineering sense, and MA is present.

AM's vid showed that, and maybe one less glass of my favourite and I'd have seen it, but personality got in the way.

[Redback]

My take on this, if you've got yourself into a situation where you need to do all this, then you should have not been there in the first place, the fact is not what they should have done, but what they shouldn't have done to get themselves in the situation in the first place.

The only time you should need a snatch block is if you need to change the direction of the winch rope!!

[Ancient Mariner]

My take on this, if you've got yourself into a situation where you need to all this, then you should have not been there in the first place, the fact is not what they should have done, but what they shouldn't have done to get themselves in the situation in the first place.

The only time you should need a snatch block is if you need to change the direction of the winch rope!!
Spoken like a true Weekend warrior[smilebigeye]

[Tank]

Brian, this info is from a magazine that shows readers that you should use a shackle with the eyes of the strap anchoring it pulling on one side of the shackle with the snatch block on the other side of the shackle , doing it's best to spread the shackle apart, as you know a shackle should only be loaded in the bow and on the pin.
The Formula for determining the MA of a pulley system is: The number of Parts of rope Supporting the MOVING BLOCK.
Diagram 2 below receives no MA from the block, BUT as there is twice the length of rope/wire wound off the winch drum (compared to the straight pull) there is a MA due to the fact that the winch is pulling from a point closer to the centre axis of the winch drum, you could gain the same MA by doing a straight pull over twice the distance, (without the magic snatch block) again pulling from a point on the winch drum closer to the drums centre axis.
The diagram described by these dicks at this particular magazine IS NOT a triple line pull as described, the lead rope from the winch to the pulley DOES NOT support the moving block, there are 2 ropes supporting the moving block so it is a MA of 2, Regards Frank.










Another way of showing it .....................

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/172.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/41qc9sluz/)

[trout1105]

Wouldn't doubling the amount of force on the pull exceed the rating on the "D" shackles used?.
The Maximum pull on a 12,000lb winch is over 5 tone and most of the "D" shackles we normally carry are only rated at 4.7 tone, So if we double the pulling power from the winch then there has to be the possibility that somewhere in the setup the 4.7 tone rating will be exceeded.

[scarry]

That second one down in the pic with one pully block,very handy when using the capstan on the front of the series 1.

But no tree protecter in those days...

[Ancient Mariner]

That second one down in the pic with one pully block,very handy when using the capstan on the front of the series 1.

But no tree protecter in those days...
That wouldn't work with a capstan as you are not decreasing the diam of the drum wich according to tank is the only MA you are going to get[bighmmm]

AM

[Tank]

That wouldn't work with a capstan as you are not decreasing the diam of the drum wich according to tank is the only MA you are going to get[bighmmm]

AM

You just don't get it, do you, Quote: "according to tank", it's not according to me, It is a fact of life, it is the Laws of Physics, it's the Vibe, for ****'s sake, Regards Frank.

[Wraithe]

An easy fix is to use one of them winches you find on boat trailers, It makes the job of lifting a carcass soo much easier.
I just wielded one onto one of the shed posts and ran the cable through a pulley back down to the floor [thumbsupbig]

Thats a good idea Trout... Will be replacing winch on boat trailer(with an electric, something to do with my age) so can use that instead...

Thanks Mate...

[Ancient Mariner]

You just don't get it, do you, Quote: "according to tank", it's not according to me, It is a fact of life, it is the Laws of Physics, it's the Vibe, for ****'s sake, Regards Frank.
Sorry Tank Just to thick:zzz:

AM

[pop058]

Mod hat on.

Gentlemen, either agree to disagree or get a room. Either way keep the personal shots out of the discussion.

Back to your regular programing.

[Redback]

Spoken like a true Weekend warrior[smilebigeye]

EX crane operator chaser/rigger alsoB)


When I'm touring or being a weekend warrior I try not to put myself in those situations, to much like hard work:angel:

[bee utey]

Here is an example of a fixed pulley (on the left) that has no mechanical advantage, providing the force is applied by a winch that remains at a fixed distance from the pulley.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/138.jpg

Where winching your own vehicle differs is that the winch and the load are moving relative to the pulley, therefore getting a MA of 2. The second illustration shows a moving load and pulley. Both the winch and the cable anchor are attached to the same object. Where a certain person is hanging up is that a winch can not tell the difference between a moving anchor and a moving load. The winch does not consult a GPS to determine if it is moving. A winch cares not if a tree is pulled over by a stationary vehicle or a tree is pulling a vehicle out of a bog. All it knows is that the pulley moves relative to the winch and load combined. A vehicle using a rope passing through a pulley and returning to the vehicle is a moving pulley problem not a fixed pulley problem. The third image is also showing a MA of 2, the second pulley is just a stand in for a winch or capstan and adds no mechanical advantage.

Simple physics. [bigsmile1]

[Ancient Mariner]

EX crane operator chaser/rigger alsoB)


When I'm touring or being a weekend warrior I try not to put myself in those situations, to much like hard work:angel:

A good strategy but like they say **** happens and could be your mate over the edge

AM

[350RRC]

Here is an example of a fixed pulley (on the left) that has no mechanical advantage, providing the force is applied by a winch that remains at a fixed distance from the pulley.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/138.jpg

Where winching your own vehicle differs is that the winch and the load are moving relative to the pulley, therefore getting a MA of 2. The second illustration shows a moving load and pulley. Both the winch and the cable anchor are attached to the same object. Where a certain person is hanging up is that a winch can not tell the difference between a moving anchor and a moving load. The winch does not consult a GPS to determine if it is moving. A winch cares not if a tree is pulled over by a stationary vehicle or a tree is pulling a vehicle out of a bog. All it knows is that the pulley moves relative to the winch and load combined. A vehicle using a rope passing through a pulley and returning to the vehicle is a moving pulley problem not a fixed pulley problem. The third image is also showing a MA of 2, the second pulley is just a stand in for a winch or capstan and adds no mechanical advantage.

Simple physics. [bigsmile1]

In the third image if the weight is the vehicle and the winch on the vehicle is at the end of the red arrow I would have thought that is a MA of 3 versus a straight pull.

The effort is being spent over 3 times the distance.

I only did physics and applied maths so don't go too hard!

cheers, DL

[cuppabillytea]

The Chicks love 'em though, so manly, and look at those really cool tuff cut of sleeves. A bloke could never get snot that far up his arm.

[bee utey]

In the third image if the weight is the vehicle and the winch on the vehicle is at the end of the red arrow I would have thought that is a MA of 3 versus a straight pull.

The effort is being spent over 3 times the distance.

I only did physics and applied maths so don't go too hard!

cheers, DL

Quite correct, but that would be a different picture. What was pictured assumes that the load and "winch" were not mounted together. [smilebigeye]

[Tank]

In the third image if the weight is the vehicle and the winch on the vehicle is at the end of the red arrow I would have thought that is a MA of 3 versus a straight pull.

The effort is being spent over 3 times the distance.

I only did physics and applied maths so don't go too hard!

cheers, DL

In the third pic MA is determined by "the number or parts of rope supporting the MOVING block" so the MA is 2 the other block is used to change the direction of the pull, e.g. if you were behind the load/vehicle that was being winched and placed a snatch block to a tree ahead of the winched vehicle and back to your winching vehicle, if a snatch block is not moving with the load, (in other words to "Advantage") then the fixed block is only changing direction of the pull, in this case to "Disadvantage".
If you look at a large crane with a bunch of pulleys and a large hook and count the number of ropes supporting that block of pulleys and hook you will have the MA of that setup, the lead rope which is pulled to disadvantage (opposite direction that the load is moving in) is not to be considered as part of the supporting ropes, Regards Frank.

[Ancient Mariner]

A simple way to calculate MA when using a vehicle winch is to count the number of lines at the vehicle including the hauling part ie 1 line 1-1 2 lines 2-1 3 lines 3-1 .The extra friction with more blocks probably less than what is gained by less rope on the drum


AM

[trout1105]

With a 12,000lb winch Most of us would only need a snatch block to change the direction of the pull or to feed out more line so that there is less left on the drum to facilitate more power from the winch.
It IS nice to know how to get an MA But if you actually needed to boost the pulling power of your winch x2 or even x3 Will your rope, anchor points or even your Bullbar mounts be up to the task ?

[vnx205]

This sounds like an easy way to work out MA.

Here’s an easy way to remember all this: Just count the number of lines that get shorter with the movement of the vehicle being pulled, and you’ll have your mechanical advantage.

That is from this article, which from a quick reading seems to have a couple of tips about things that might not be obvious. For example, the way a bow shackle should face. I think we all know it should not be sideways. Anyone who has read Tank's reminders about this will surely have that clear, but there is still the issue of whether the tree protector or the cable hook goes on the pin.

https://expeditionportal.com/winching-without-the-worry/

[rangieman]

This sounds like an easy way to work out MA.

Here’s an easy way to remember all this: Just count the number of lines that get shorter with the movement of the vehicle being pulled, and you’ll have your mechanical advantage.

That is from this article, which from a quick reading seems to have a couple of tips about things that might not be obvious. For example, the way a bow shackle should face. I think we all know it should not be sideways. Anyone who has read Tank's reminders about this will surely have that clear, but there is still the issue of whether the tree protector or the cable hook goes on the pin.

https://expeditionportal.com/winching-without-the-worry/



Fixed the link for you[wink11]
Winching without the Worry – Expedition Portal (https://expeditionportal.com/winching-without-the-worry/)

[cuppabillytea]

Hook on the bow. If you put the hook on the pin it will slide to one side and then you have a sideways set up. An absolute must not happen.

[trout1105]

but there is still the issue of whether the tree protector or the cable hook goes on the pin.

There is No need to use a shackle to hook up to the tree protector, Just slip the winch hook through the loops of the tree protector. [thumbsupbig]
This way there is one less lump of metal in the mix to fail and become a missile.

[Tank]

Hook on the bow. If you put the hook on the pin it will slide to one side and then you have a sideways set up. An absolute must not happen.

Totally and completely wrong, how do you get two strap eyes on the pin, without bunching them up or have one eye sitting on top of the other, the eyes would be pinching on one another and unevenly loaded, your other point, if the hook was liable to slide on the pin then it should be shimmed/packed with washers to stop that happening.
Christ knows commonsense is in short supply. Why the **** do you think they make BOW SHACKLES for, as over a "D" shackle, it is so that you can fit the wide eyes of straps on the shackle without loading them unevenly or sitting on top of one another and also to take multiple eyes of wire slings, it is so simple, Regards Frank.

[Tank]

There is No need to use a shackle to hook up to the tree protector, Just slip the winch hook through the loops of the tree protector. [thumbsupbig]
This way there is one less lump of metal in the mix to fail and become a missile.

Same as cuppabillyteas post above, show me how you can safely get 2 strap eyes on a winch hook without one on top of the other, which will cause one eye to take more of the load than the other and damage the strap eyes, also the winch hook is only to be loaded in the belly of the hook, with 2 strap eyes fitted the end of the hook will be overloaded and how do you get the safety clip[ to work properly, loading a winch hook up like this could make the hook the weakest link, please just use your noggin and think before you act, Regards Frank.

[cuppabillytea]

Totally and completely wrong, how do you get two strap eyes on the pin, without bunching them up or have one eye sitting on top of the other, the eyes would be pinching on one another and unevenly loaded, your other point, if the hook was liable to slide on the pin then it should be shimmed/packed with washers to stop that happening.
Christ knows commonsense is in short supply. Why the **** do you think they make BOW SHACKLES for, as over a "D" shackle, it is so that you can fit the wide eyes of straps on the shackle without loading them unevenly or sitting on top of one another and also to take multiple eyes of wire slings, it is so simple, Regards Frank.
Frank, you are a rigger with vast experience who's word is gospel as far as I'm concerned, but your average people don't go equiped to the extent that you do. They are not going to shim the pin and the end result will be ugly.
If you were putting the shackle on a pad eye, how would you do it, or for that matter a couple of thimble ends?

[Ancient Mariner]

I have never used a hook on a vehicle winch cable .A shackle pin being larger is much kinder to the thimble so haver seen the point of a hook .Frank and I have finaly found something to agree on the slings go to the bow[bigsmile1]

AM

[Tank]

This sounds like an easy way to work out MA.

Here’s an easy way to remember all this: Just count the number of lines that get shorter with the movement of the vehicle being pulled, and you’ll have your mechanical advantage.

That is from this article, which from a quick reading seems to have a couple of tips about things that might not be obvious. For example, the way a bow shackle should face. I think we all know it should not be sideways. Anyone who has read Tank's reminders about this will surely have that clear, but there is still the issue of whether the tree protector or the cable hook goes on the pin.

https://expeditionportal.com/winching-without-the-worry/




Allan, interesting read, but the first 2 pics turned my guts over, here's this bloke giving advice that may cause death to some poor soul, going by the first examples of his incompetence, the way the winching setup was setup with around a 90 degree bend in the winching rope has doubled the load on that rope and the rope holding the snatch block, BTW is he halving the load on the winch by using that snatch block.
In the other pic he shows a strap through the eyes of another strap, this also doubles the load on this strap and should never be done, totally illegal in the rigging industry.
Then the idiot has the eyes of the strap jambed on the pin of the shackle and the hook on bow of the shackle, the bow is there to accomodate the eyes of the straps or multiple eyes of wire/rope slings.
Now I know that in the situation shown in the pic they are only trying to right the truck and not much force/load is to be used, BUT people who know little to nothing of recovery would see the way he has set that bridle up and would use it to debog there vehicle, a bridle setup should have both eyes attached to the load and the centre of the strap attached to the winching hook and be as long as possible to keep the angle as far as possible under 90 degrees, all of this information is available to anyone who CARES to look in the OH&S and Riggers Guide Text books.
Also Allan I don't understand why people can't grasp the fundemental Laws of Physics, just about everything has a FORMULA for calculating how it works and in the case of ropes and pulleys to determine their MA the Formula is "THE NUMBER OF PARTS OF ROPE SUPPORTING THE "MOVING" BLOCK", now that is not MY formula, as some here seem to think, it is based on the Laws of Physics, Newton was the instigator, no amount of arguing will change that formula, it is as basic as the sun rising and setting, I know you have your beliefs and that's great but it doesn't change the FACTS, Regards Frank.

[trout1105]

Same as cuppabillyteas post above, show me how you can safely get 2 strap eyes on a winch hook without one on top of the other, which will cause one eye to take more of the load than the other and damage the strap eyes, also the winch hook is only to be loaded in the belly of the hook, with 2 strap eyes fitted the end of the hook will be overloaded and how do you get the safety clip[ to work properly, loading a winch hook up like this could make the hook the weakest link, please just use your noggin and think before you act, Regards Frank.

IF both of the eyes that are loaded into the hook were coming from a "Fixed" position I would agree with you that by having one eye on top of the other would make the load uneven.
However the trunk protector is a single strap that will even itself out under strain because both of the eyes will be pulling against each other So it really doesn't matter if one strap is under the other because the strain on each eye will be the same.
If you have a problem with this then you could simply remove the hook and use a "D" shackle in its place, Either way you will have removed unnecessary hardware from the pull. [bigwhistle]

[cuppabillytea]

I have never used a hook on a vehicle winch cable .A shackle pin being larger is much kinder to the thimble so haver seen the point of a hook .Frank and I have finaly found something to agree on the slings go to the bow[bigsmile1]

AM

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

[Tank]

Frank, you are a rigger with vast experience who's word is gospel as far as I'm concerned, but your average people don't go equiped to the extent that you do. They are not going to shim the pin and the end result will be ugly.
If you were putting the shackle on a pad eye, how would you do it, or for that matter a couple of thimble ends?

I have only ever once used shims to prevent a shackle sliding on it's pin in over 40 years of rigging as it was required to satisfy an insurance company while I was turning a 50 tonne ball mill end for end, even though we had a spreader beam that kept the shackle perpindicular to the beam.
My point is that it is safer to have the strap eyes in the bow of the shackle than jambed up on top of one another or being jambed into a winch hook, this is reason BOW shackles exist, to your other point if the pad eye or thimble ends fitted on the pin without jambing up, no problem fitting on the pin, probably find the thimble ends wouldn't fit on the body of the shackle anyway, usually the part where the pin goes through would be bigger than the thimble eyes, on the pin no trouble as long as the fitted between the width of the shackle body where the pin goes, Regards Frank.

[Ancient Mariner]

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?
Throw the hook overboard sling in the bow and shackle pin thru the rope thimble[thumbsupbig] Nah do what you gotta do



AM

[V8Ian]

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wireand you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?
Do you still use that?
I learned to do figure 8 mousing with string but the skill became redundant when open hooks were outlawed and replaced with self mousing ones.
I presume the large hooks you play with are still open?

[Tank]

I don't disagree with frank. He's quite right, but what's worse, a hook sliding around on a pin or a sling stuffed onto a pin? You have to do something. You don't have a gear box You're not in the Yard. You're miles from anywhere and all you have is a Hook on a winch a Bow shackle and a Sling. No shims no washers no mousing wire and you don't have long before all is lost. What do you do?

I have answered your previous post but you have posted before I finished it.
What is more dangerous is people thinking that jambing 2 eyes of a strap onto a pin of a shackle or a hook on a winch cable is quite alright, it is the norm after all, well it's probably as dangerous as anything else done in 4WD recovery. When you start using rigging gear for purposes it wasn't designed for you reach it's limit of destruction very quickly.
Use the equipment as it was designed to be used and there will not be a problem, eyes of a fibre strap are designed wide to support a load, twist the eyes and load one on top of another and you are way outside their design parameters and into the danger zone.
Unless you have a VERY wide Bow shackle and a very skinny winch hook I can see NO problem with the hook sliding side to side on the shackle pin, I have never had this problem.
If I had an anchor strap and the eyes were to big to fit on the winch hook, I could do 2 things, 1 fit a bow shackle to the hook and strap or 2 join the eyes of the anchor strap with a shackle around the anchor point and fit the centre section of the strap to the hook.
I don't use a hook on my wire winch cable, I use a shackle and I would recommend everyone ditch their hook and fit a good sized (Rated) shackle, reason being, compare the diameter of the clevis pin that the cable or rope is attached to the hook with, compare that to the dia. of the pin in the shackle, most breakages occur at that point of contact, with the clevis pin likened to a knife edge and the shackle pin compared to a really really blunt knife edge, all winch cable/rope eyes connecting to the shackle or clevis pin should have a protective thimble, Regards Frank.

[tact]

[...]
I really can't understand why you can't (or don't want to) grasp the simple laws of Physics and the simple FACT is that there is NO MA from an anchored,i.e. NOT MOVING snatch block, where are these magical powers coming from with YOUR snatch block, all an anchored snatch block does is change the line of pull to disadvantage, if you and others can't see that then that's your problem, not mine, Regards Frank.


Lets say 2 operators are stuck fast. Both operators runs a winch cable out to a block tied to a tree (tree protector for sure) and back to his own vehicle.

So we have two individual and unconnected situations here. One a duplicate of the other. Both operators start to winch in.

Operator A: smiles as his vehicle starts to move towards the tree as planned. (There is a suggestion by some that in this scenario there is no MA as the block is not moving)

Operator B: to his surprise sees his tree is uprooted and starts to move towards the vehicle, the vehicle still stuck fast.

Does it matter at all? Does it change the physics at all? That in one case above the block is moving and in the other case it is not?

No.

Unlike Operators A & B above, these next two fellers (C&D) rig differently and see different results:
Operator C: runs his winch rope off the winch drum, out through a block attached to a tree, and thence to a fixed anchor point that is not attached to his vehicle. (like a stake in the ground.

Operator D: runs his winch rope off the winch drum, out through a block attached to a tree, and thence back to his vehicle.

Operator C: is effectively using his block to simply change direction of pull. No MA. If he winches in 2M of wire rope onto his winch drum, his vehicle will have moved 2M forward.

Operator D: (like both operators A & B above) is rigged 2:1 MA. If he winches in 2M of wire rope onto his winch drum, his vehicle will have moved 1M forward assuming the tree didn't uproot.

[cuppabillytea]

Do you still use that?
I learned to do figure 8 mousing with string but the skill became redundant when open hooks were outlawed and replaced with self mousing ones.
I presume the large hooks you play with are still open?
We don't mouse hooks anymore. I doubt that you'd find a compatible hook. We mouse all the shackle pins used in a sea tow because the load and angle of pull is constantly changing, everything is always wet and they can unscrew themselves.


I have answered your previous post but you have posted before I finished it.
What is more dangerous is people thinking that jambing 2 eyes of a strap onto a pin of a shackle or a hook on a winch cable is quite alright, it is the norm after all, well it's probably as dangerous as anything else done in 4WD recovery. When you start using rigging gear for purposes it wasn't designed for you reach it's limit of destruction very quickly.
Use the equipment as it was designed to be used and there will not be a problem, eyes of a fibre strap are designed wide to support a load, twist the eyes and load one on top of another and you are way outside their design parameters and into the danger zone.
Unless you have a VERY wide Bow shackle and a very skinny winch hook I can see NO problem with the hook sliding side to side on the shackle pin, I have never had this problem.
If I had an anchor strap and the eyes were to big to fit on the winch hook, I could do 2 things, 1 fit a bow shackle to the hook and strap or 2 join the eyes of the anchor strap with a shackle around the anchor point and fit the centre section of the strap to the hook.
I don't use a hook on my wire winch cable, I use a shackle and I would recommend everyone ditch their hook and fit a good sized (Rated) shackle, reason being, compare the diameter of the clevis pin that the cable or rope is attached to the hook with, compare that to the dia. of the pin in the shackle, most breakages occur at that point of contact, with the clevis pin likened to a knife edge and the shackle pin compared to a really really blunt knife edge, all winch cable/rope eyes connecting to the shackle or clevis pin should have a protective thimble, Regards Frank.
The eyes on my flat slings are gathered in and shrouded, which makes them more like a rope. I have seen the result of a Shackle pulled sideways. It was a D shackle to be fare and also to be fair it was full of rope. While we're being fair it was also NOT rigged by a rigger. Also to be fair I didn't actually see the incident.
It was a 100 Ton Shackle and, allegedly it failed at 60 Ton. I have my doubts about the evidence bothe anecdotal and physical but it still makes me nervous about the prospect of a Shackle going sideways.
I agree that hooks on a winch wire or rope are not ideal and probably shouldn't be supplied that way.


Throw the hook overboard sling in the bow and shackle pin thru the rope thimble[thumbsupbig] Nah do what you gotta do



AM
Probably throw the shackle overboard.

[Ancient Mariner]

We don't mouse hooks anymore. I doubt that you'd find a compatible hook. We mouse all the shackle pins used in a sea tow because the load and angle of pull is constantly changing, everything is always wet and they can unscrew themselves.


The eyes on my flat slings are gathered in and shrouded, which makes them more like a rope. I have seen the result of a Shackle pulled sideways. It was a D shackle to be fare and also to be fair it was full of rope. While we're being fair it was also NOT rigged by a rigger. Also to be fair I didn't actually see the incident.
It was a 100 Ton Shackle and, allegedly it failed at 60 Ton. I have my doubts about the evidence bothe anecdotal and physical but it still makes me nervous about the prospect of a Shackle going sideways.
I agree that hooks on a winch wire or rope are not ideal and probably shouldn't be supplied that way.


Probably throw the shackle overboard.
Righto here's the hook How do I attach the 10mm chain and do I attach it before chucking it overboard[bighmmm]

[cuppabillytea]

Righto here's the hook How do I attach the 10mm chain and do I attach it before chucking it overboard[bighmmm]

Only if it's wrapped three times around your leg. [bigsmile]

Look!!! Tank is right. You don't load sling eyes on top of one another. If they don't sit tightly side by side on the Pin, put them in the Bow. BUT please everyone make sure that your rig can not slip so as to pull on the sides of the Shackle.

[vnx205]

... .. .... ..

Also Allan I don't understand why people can't grasp the fundamental Laws of Physics, just about everything has a FORMULA for calculating how it works and in the case of ropes and pulleys to determine their MA the Formula is "THE NUMBER OF PARTS OF ROPE SUPPORTING THE "MOVING" BLOCK", now that is not MY formula, as some here seem to think, it is based on the Laws of Physics, Newton was the instigator, no amount of arguing will change that formula, it is as basic as the sun rising and setting, I know you have your beliefs and that's great but it doesn't change the FACTS, Regards Frank.

That formula has served riggers well. I works. It gives the right answer. It is based on the laws of physics.

The problem is not with the formula. The problem is with identifying whether a pulley is fixed or is moving.

A couple of people have explained why a pulley attached to a tree can be a moving pulley. It isn't a moving pulley in the first photo in that "Expedition Portal" article because the end of the cable is not attached to the same vehicle as the winch. It would become a moving pulley if the cable end went back to the vehicle.

This article offers another explanation of why an apparently fixed pulley behaves as a moving pulley.
Simple Machines -- Mechanical Advantage (http://www.edinformatics.com/math_science/simple_machines/mechanical_advantage.htm)
Here are examples where the fixed point is not obvious:
A man sits on seat that hangs from a rope that is looped through a pulley attached to a roof rafter above. The man pulls down on the rope to lift himself and the seat. The pulley is considered a movable pulley and the man and the seat are considered as fixed points; MA = 2.
A velcro strap on a shoe passes through a slot and folds over on itself. The slot is a movable pulley and the Mechanical Advantage =2.

You are quite right in saying that a single fixed pulley offers no mechanical advantage. That has never been in dispute. The issue is that it is not always immediately obvious whether a pulley is effectively fixed or effectively moving.

One reason riggers can rely on the formula you mentioned is because the way cranes are used does not resemble the way a winch can be used on a vehicle.

If the cable goes from the winch, through the snatch block and onto another tree or another vehicle, that is like a crane (except that things are horizontal, not vertical).

The only way a crane setup could duplicate the common 4WD setup where the cable comes back to the winching vehicle would be if the crane was attached to the load it was trying to lift with the cable through a single overhead pulley. I don't believe that a crane would be likely to be used like that, so that the crane goes up with the load. I have searched a lot of rigging documents and have never seen a crane set up like that.

I can't think of a situation where a crane would be used where there would be any confusion about whether a pulley was fixed or moving. However, there are obviously situations where people could be confused about whether a pulley was effectively moving or not.

That is why I offered that alternative way of calculating MA. There is no problem with the formula. As you say, it is based on the laws of physics. The problem is with understanding whether a pulley is fixed or moving. In the world of rigging and cranes it is obvious . Unless a crane was bolted to the load it was lifting, it will continue to be obvious whether the pulley is moving or not. In some other situations, such as the two in the article I quoted, it is not as obvious.

That alternative way of calculating MA avoids the need to understand whether a pulley is effectively moving or not and that is obviously not as easy as you might imagine.

The formula works as long as you know whether a pulley is effectively moving or not.

The argument is not about the laws of physics or the formula that riggers use. The argument is just about whether a single pulley attached to a tree can be effectively a moving pulley.

[tact]

[...] The problem is with identifying whether a pulley is fixed or is moving. [...]

Yes!