The real experience of a Tesla SUV

[PhilipA]

I don't know how many subscribe to The Australian but last weekend they had a most amusing test of a Tesla SUV.
The Weekend Australian Magazine, June 17-18, 2017
Tesla Model X P100D review: Bill McKinnon
Henry Ford was the great visionary car tsar of the 20th century. Tesla founder Elon Musk has inherited Ford’s mantle, as evidenced by Tesla’s share price. It has surged by 60 per cent this year in anticipation of the company’s first mass-market car – the Model 3, due next month, with prices starting at $US35,000.
Mr Musk’s magical machines are the stuff of 21st century dreams, combining the two bright blue-sky automotive technologies – electric propulsion and autonomous driving – with Silicon Valley spin and the ultimate in corporate motherhood vision statements: We’re doing it for the planet. Tesla hasn’t turned a profit yet and currently holds 0.1 per cent of the US new car market; let’s not quibble about the details.
But if you’re spending $306,232 – the on-road, optioned-up price of the Tesla Model X P100D we’re in today – details are important. We should look closely at them because there are a few holes in the Tesla story.
The Model X is a big, heavy (2497kg) SUV, its styling signature a pair of vertically hinged rear doors – “Falcon Wing” doors in Tesla-speak. Five seats are standard; a seven seat option is $5800. As with any electric car, it’s actually a pretty simple machine, with only a fraction of the components of a conventional internal combustion drivetrain.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/06/129.jpg

An aluminium frame holds the liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery pack – a 100kWh unit in the P100D – with an electric motor at each end providing all-wheel drive via a single speed reduction gear. Suspension is conventional double wishbone front/multilink rear, with air springs permitting an adjustable ride height; the steering is variable ratio electric.
Tesla claims its vehicles “have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver”. This is misleading, because software and processing capability is what really does the driving and safe, reliable, fully autonomous vehicles, plus the billions of dollars worth of infrastructure needed to make them work, are at least several decades away.
“Enhanced Autopilot”, Tesla’s latest semi-autonomous driving system, is a $7300 option. “Full Self Driving Capability” adds another $4400. Enhanced Autopilot is a waste of money because it doesn’t work properly. Tesla admits that it’s still in the beta testing phase. As for Full Self Driving Capability, Tesla’s disclaimer states that “functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction”. It seems bizarre that Tesla is allowed to spruik and sell this technology, which has serious consequences for road safety if it goes wrong, while it’s still effectively in a prototype state, using its customers – and the rest of us who share the roads with them – to do the final validation.
Around town, especially in traffic, Autopilot’s Autosteer function is erratic, unreliable and occasionally scary. The test car would not stay in its lane or negotiate corners in a predictable, safe manner, and at times the steering wheel seemed to forcefully resist attempts to maintain control. On the highway, Autosteer activation was often blocked because the road markings, barriers and other reference points used by its cameras, radar and ultrasonic sensors were insufficient, or indistinct, or the road was partly in shadow.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/06/130.jpg

On the M1 north of Sydney, radar cruise was hypersensitive to traffic in adjacent lanes, often applying the brakes when there was no reason to do so. This is dangerous.
Tesla claims the Model X is the “safest, fastest, most capable sport utility vehicle in history”. One of these claims is true. This thing flies, especially in full power “Ludicrous” mode, where the P100D is claimed to hit 100km/h in 3.1 seconds, comparable with a Ferrari 488. Even in normal mode, acceleration is immediate and effortless. And how’s the serenity? Sublime.
The Model X has not been crash tested by the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Euro NCAP or ANCAP in Australia, so the “safest” claim is puffery. So is “most capable”. At what? Sure, for a 2.5-tonne lump the Model X is a taut, agile handler and it rides smoothly and comfortably, but there’s body flex on bumpy roads, it’s underbraked and, off-road, a Range Rover will leave it in the dust.
Model X owners get a Tesla wall charger that can charge the battery at a claimed 81km of range per hour. Tesla claims the 100kW/h battery provides 565km of range, yet in any electric vehicle range depends on factors such as how you drive and ambient temperature. In ideal autumn weather I never got close to 565km. On several highway drives, the maximum achievable range was nearer to 350km.


At Tesla’s free supercharger station north of Newcastle on the Pacific Highway it took 40 minutes to recharge the battery from 137km remaining to a claimed 488km of range, but after another 231km of driving I had only 118km left. It then took 48 hours on a 10 amp power point to recharge the battery to a claimed 548km of range, but I had to stop at the supercharger again on the return trip to Sydney after 220km because I wasn’t going to make the 388km distance. It took 50 minutes to recharge to a claimed 470km range. I then drove 168km to Sydney, where the display said I had 161km left.
Our test car’s price includes $49,801 in luxury car tax. In the US and Europe, Tesla and other electric vehicle owners get thousands of dollars’ worth of incentives and rebates. Maybe if the Telsa ran on coal, Australian owners would get a few financial free kicks too?
The Model X deal is “zero emissions”. This claim only flies if you recharge from renewable sources. The federal government’s Green Vehicle Guide lists its fuel life cycle CO2 emissions at 212g/km – almost three times those generated by BMW’s X5 40e petrol/electric hybrid – if the considerable amount of electricity it uses is generated by fossil fuels, including coal.
Tesla proclaims the Model X is “the SUV uncompromised”. On the evidence of the test car’s misaligned panels, wide panel gaps, poorly fitted seals and trim and general lack of attention to detail in fit and finish, I would argue that the Model X is seriously compromised. In fact, by 2017 standards it’s not even production ready. It drives beautifully, but too much of the Model X’s reality does not correlate with Tesla’s spin.
Tesla Model X P100D
Engine: Twin synchronous AC electric motors/100kWh lithium-ion battery | Transmission: Single-speed automatic, all-wheel drive | Price: From $201,100 | Score: 2.5 out of 5

[VladTepes]

I can't say any of that surprises me.

[V8Ian]

Opps, wrong thread. [bigsad]

[carjunkieanon]

Saw one yesterday parked outside a school in the Northern Beaches.

I'd rather a Discovery myself. Even the D5, ugly as it is, looks better than a Tesla.

[Mick_Marsh]

Seems as there is a way to go yet.
It's good that someone has looked into it from a real world point of view.
Three times more polluting than a BMW X5 hybrid! Probably rather costly to run considering the rising electricity prices.
And the autonomous features sound unworkable.
I think I'll stick with my 1965 Mercedes for a while yet.

[PhilipA]

This is some more info that takes the gloss somewhat off the Tesla green credentials.

From NyTeknik (http://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/stora-utslapp-fran-elbilarnas-batterier-6851761): h/t to Don Shaw (translated)
Huge hopes have been tied to electric cars as the solution to automotive CO2 climate problem. But it turns out the the electric car batteries are eco-villains in the production process of creating them. Several tons of carbon dioxide has been emitted, even before the batteries leave the factory.
IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute was commissioned by the Swedish Transport Administration and the Swedish Energy Agency to investigate litium-ion batteries climate impact from a life cycle perspective. There are batteries designed for electric vehicles included in the study. The two authors Lisbeth Dahllöf and Mia Romare has done a meta-study that is reviewed and compiled existing studies.
The report shows that the battery manufacturing leads to high emissions. For every kilowatt hour of storage capacity in the battery generated emissions of 150 to 200 kilos of carbon dioxide already in the factory. The researchers did not study individual brand batteries, how these were produced, or the electricity mix they use. But if we understand the great importance of the battery here is an example: Two common electric cars on the market, the Nissan Leaf and the Tesla Model S, the batteries about 30 kWh and 100 kWh.
Even before buying the car emissions occurred, corresponding to approximately 5.3 tons and 17.5 tons of Carbon Dioxide. The numbers can be difficult to relate to. As a comparison, a trip for one person round trip from Stockholm to New York by air causes the release of more than 600 kilograms of carbon dioxide, according to the UN organization ICAO calculation.
Another conclusion of the study is that about half the emissions arising from the production of raw materials and half the production of the battery factory. The mining accounts for only a small proportion of between 10-20 percent.
The calculation is based on the assumption that the electricity mix used in the battery factory consists of more than half of the fossil fuels. In Sweden, the power production is mainly of fossil-nuclear and hydropower why lower emissions had been achieved.
The study also concluded that emissions grow almost linearly with the size of the battery, even if it is pinched by the data in that field. It means that a battery of the Tesla-size contributes more than three times as much emissions as the Nissan Leaf size. It is a result that surprised Mia Romare

Regards Philip A

[101RRS]

Plug in recharging is always going to be an option but that all it will be. To be usable we are going to have to have electric vehicles that are ready to go in a few minutes rather than a few hours - this can only be done with standard size basic batteries - more power from multiple battery packs.

You arrive in a garage - current charge in the batteries is determined - the batteries are automatically removed and fully charged batteries installed - all in a few minutes - the new charge level is measured and you are charged accordingly - including all the associated fees and taxes etc.

This is the only way that it will work for the general driving public. For sure recharging at home will work at home when you are just driving locally but not for anything else.

Electric cars need to be standardised as far as battery fit an change over is concerned.

Garry

[bee utey]

The thing that Teslas are especially good at is removing nitrogen oxide/particulate pollution from urban districts. These things will be in high demand for the school run where traditionally the vehicle of choice is a large diesel 4WD, usually barely up to operating temperature before turning up outside of a footpath full of kids. Professional parents love their techno toys. And because they're expensive, owners are more likely to have large amounts of solar panels to offset their consumption. And techno toys don't have to be perfect to be in high demand, just trendy. No sign yet of Tesla's pre-order list shrinking appreciably.

Soon many vehicle manufacturers will be offering smaller simpler electric cars with less bells and whistles and these will make even more sense within a city environment. VW's e-Golf is one model that has been quietly gaining in capacity in some northern hemisphere markets. I reckon I could handle owning one for the missus to do her shopping with, short range and all. She rarely strays more than 60km from home these days so range isn't an issue just as recharge time isn't either.

[PhilipA]

Soon many vehicle manufacturers will be offering smaller simpler electric cars with less bells and whistles and these will make even more sense within a city environment.

So you reckon that the school run drivers will feel "safe" in a small electric car?

That could explain all the Priuses that are sold or the UP!s or the Suzuki tiny Indian things.

The new Volvo wagon is a Nissan Patrol, Jeep Grand Cherokee, or some other hulking giant. You should see the Rooty Hill football centre on a Saturday and you will see what the mums like.

The reason they have small cars in Europe is they are cheap to run with swingeing taxes on big cars.

That does not exist in OZ and is unlikely to.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

So you reckon that the school run drivers will feel "safe" in a small electric car?

I said nothing of the sort. Commuters and old people on the other hand will flock to them in droves. I know what the locals around here drive and there are plenty of small cars in the mix. People still don't believe what I used to convert to LPG a few years ago, anything above 1 litre engine capacity was fair game. I could even see a small e-car being towed behind the behemoths the grey nomads trundle about in. Charge them off the caravan power sockets and troll around the town and save the lumpy thing for between towns.

[PhilipA]

The thing that Teslas are especially good at is removing nitrogen oxide/particulate pollution from urban districts. These things will be in high demand for the school run where traditionally the vehicle of choice is a large diesel 4WD


I said nothing of the sort.

Come on Bee utey fess up.

I must admit that I look at the older Prius ads every now and then and of course nobody else does, strange considering they have proven to be very reliable.
So maybe oldies but I must say in my Probus club who are ALL oldies there is not one electric cars but lots of B and C class Mercs which seem to be the fogies Holdens. In fact probably the single most popular brand is Mercedes with about 10 out of 50 followed by various SUVs like Kias etc and Hyundai cars.
I dunno what the poor people drive. No wait that is me with my 2002 D2.

Regards Philip A

[bee utey]

[/I][/B]

Come on Bee utey fess up.

I must admit that I look at the older Prius ads every now and then and of course nobody else does, strange considering they have proven to be very reliable.
So maybe oldies but I must say in my Probus club who are ALL oldies there is not one electric cars but lots of B and C class Mercs which seem to be the fogies Holdens. In fact probably the single most popular brand is Mercedes with about 10 out of 50 followed by various SUVs like Kias etc and Hyundai cars.
I dunno what the poor people drive. No wait that is me with my 2002 D2.

Regards Philip A

Reading comprehension fail. Teslas are the subject of the UnAustralian rant you copy-pasted and are big "SUV's" just like the things that rich school mums drive now. Small electric cars are a related subject and will appeal to different people. People who already drive compacts by choice, like B and C class Mercs. And very few of them are available from car dealers yet so you won't find many at your local Probus club. Geddit?

[Tote]

I was recently talking to a lady that owns a model S. She is based in Canberra,usually only drives locally but is able to go as far as Sydney if she needs to. With a short daily commute the range does not impact her so it meets her requirements. I have seen a model S in Grong Grong as well so they do get out in the bush ( relatively speaking)

Regards,
Tote

[Tins]

I was recently talking to a lady that owns a model S. She is based in Canberra,usually only drives locally but is able to go as far as Sydney if she needs to. With a short daily commute the range does not impact her so it meets her requirements. I have seen a model S in Grong Grong as well so they do get out in the bush ( relatively speaking)

Regards,
Tote

Not sure if the Newell a few Ks from Narrandera can be counted as 'bush'. Heck, i've seen a Hyundai Getz at Grong Grong. I have actually driven through Grong Grong in a Daihatsu HandiVan.

[PhilipA]

No Cookies | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/technology/is-the-electric-car-boom-over-before-it-began-australians-shun-electric-cars-prefer-hybrids-instead/news-story/a6213d73c01820a90edd87e6c2fa1103).

Regards Philip A

[Vern]

I was recently talking to a lady that owns a model S. She is based in Canberra,usually only drives locally but is able to go as far as Sydney if she needs to. With a short daily commute the range does not impact her so it meets her requirements. I have seen a model S in Grong Grong as well so they do get out in the bush ( relatively speaking)

Regards,
Tote
Mate of mine has one as well, loves it, drives it everyday, he lives in a semi rural area about 150km east of melbourne, often drives to the big smoke in it. If they weren't so darned expensive i'd have one too.

[bee utey]

Mate of mine has one as well, loves it, drives it everyday, he lives in a semi rural area about 150km east of melbourne, often drives to the big smoke in it. If they weren't so darned expensive i'd have one too.

A bit like buying a Range Rover 25 years ago, pricey, large, capable, comfortable and highly desirable despite having some major issues with build quality and fuel consumption. Will a Tesla's resale price tank as fast as any other brand of luxo barge as soon as it leaves the showroom? Only time will tell.

[VladTepes]

I think I'll stick with my 1965 Mercedes for a while yet.

I daresay your 65 Merc will be running long after a modern Tesla has been sent for recycling....

[Vern]

Not tesla, but i'd love to have a crack on the electric ktm dirtbikes!😎

[DiscoMick]

Servos will have battery exchange banks, like gas bottles, and you'll just drive in, whip out the flat battery, drop a new one in, connect the new design clipping terminals and drive away.
Every servo will have them, it's already starting to happen overseas.
Fossil fuels will be down to under 20 percent of electricity generation by about 2050 according to Finkel, so most of the electricity will come from non-emitting power sources, plus replacing all those dirty diesel and petrol vehicles with clean electrics will eliminate a huge amount of vehicle emissions.
Land Rover is hiring now to carry out its plan to have electric versions of all its vehicles. Remote travellers will carry spare batteries and recharge them using solar and the vehicles alternator.
It's all possible.

[Simon]

So who is going to be first to try a defender to electric conversion.............

[Colmoore]

So who is going to be first to try a defender to electric conversion.............

Hmmm I think you might be onto something there Simon.
Hipsters are into go fund me AND they're into defenders (for the moment) I might just stick my hand up for some cash, ditch the Ford motor, tranny & gbox and bolt in something from GE. I've already got 3 yellow tops and a solar panel, I mean, how hard can it be?
The benefits are coming to mind thick & fast: backlash would be a thing of the past with those nice smooth electric motors, the pocksier than Lucas Ford electrics would all go, no more turbo, cat converter, heat transfer and intercooler hose issues either.
Creek crossings should be pretty sweet too, shouldn't they? I mean they make electric submarines don't they...........

[cripesamighty]

Electric Defenders have already been built, mostly to test the technology. Type in "electric defender" into google for a long list of articles!

[Geedublya]

Not tesla, but i'd love to have a crack on the electric ktm dirtbikes!😎

Alta (https://www.altamotors.co/) is the better bike.

[Vern]

Alta (https://www.altamotors.co/) is the better bike.
Never seen them before.
Ktm looks better in my opinion.
KTM Freeride E-XC 2017 (http://www.ktm.com/e-ride/freeride-e-xc-1/)

[V8Ian]

I wonder what the back-to-front cap brigade will do with their Milo tins when electric is mainstream.

[Tins]

I wonder what the back-to-front cap brigade will do with their Milo tins when electric is mainstream.

Buy bigger amplifiers.

[Geedublya]

Never seen them before.
Ktm looks better in my opinion.
KTM Freeride E-XC 2017 (http://www.ktm.com/e-ride/freeride-e-xc-1/)

I've ridden a 250 Freeride and the suspension and brakes weren't up to scratch, as the electric version has the same running gear I think it will be crap also.
Most of the guys and girls I know who bought Freerides have moved them on.

[Tins]

Servos will have battery exchange banks, like gas bottles, and you'll just drive in, whip out the flat battery, drop a new one in, connect the new design clipping terminals and drive away.
Every servo will have them, it's already starting to happen overseas.
Fossil fuels will be down to under 20 percent of electricity generation by about 2050 according to Finkel, so most of the electricity will come from non-emitting power sources, plus replacing all those dirty diesel and petrol vehicles with clean electrics will eliminate a huge amount of vehicle emissions.
Land Rover is hiring now to carry out its plan to have electric versions of all its vehicles. Remote travellers will carry spare batteries and recharge them using solar and the vehicles alternator.
It's all possible.


Servos are going to carry these for exchange, are they?

124922

Seems unlikely in my lifetime.

[DiscoMick]

Happening in the UK. Those are charging stations, of course. I'll try to find the article about battery swap and go I read a while back.


Queen's Speech: Petrol stations to go electric - Queen's Speech: Petrol stations to go electric - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40352884)

[Mick_Marsh]

I wonder what the back-to-front cap brigade will do with their Milo tins when electric is mainstream.
I put an Ovaltine tin on the Camry. I think it fell off somewhere around Dartmoor.

[V8Ian]

I put an Ovaltine tin on the Camry. I think it fell off somewhere around Dartmoor.
Did it go faster?

[Mick_Marsh]

Did it go faster?
Yes. Absolutely.
It was one fast Ovaltine tin.

[101RRS]

Servos are going to carry these for exchange, are they?

124922

Seems unlikely in my lifetime.

Then pure electric cars will just remain towncars - if you want to use your electric car when you want it, will need to be some sort of hybrid.

For sure - cars like Tesla will have enough range to drive between Sydney an Canberra but if you then want to also use it when you have arrived you will need to plug in it for quite a long while and catch the buses, use Uber or hire another electric car.

[kenleyfred]

Did full electric cars exist a decade ago? and if they did I wonder what there range was? I think this is progressing very quickly. Would love to see whats in store for us in a decades time.
I reckon good on Tesla for pushing this particular barrow. Can only eventually get better for all of us.
Kenley

[bee utey]

Then pure electric cars will just remain towncars - if you want to use your electric car when you want it, will need to be some sort of hybrid.

For sure - cars like Tesla will have enough range to drive between Sydney an Canberra but if you then want to also use it when you have arrived you will need to plug in it for quite a long while and catch the buses, use Uber or hire another electric car.

There are already fast chargers that can add more than 1/2 a charge in 1/2 an hour. Not the same as a 10 minute refuel for sure, but people will adapt. Then there is the fact that wherever there is a power connection, there can be slow charging. Shopping centres and CBD's will want people with electric cars to linger for a while so will have free/cheap slow chargers all over the place. In the UK a company has gone around and replaced street lights with LEDs and freed up cable capacity to have a charge port on every converted pole. Adelaide City Council wants to roll out a network of curbside chargers and of course some rich ratepayers are complaining that the council should stick to fixing potholes and rubbish collection.

So unless a daily drive involves multiple drivers sharing a 1500km trip with only 15 minutes off every 3 hours, electric cars will one day be entirely adequate for most people. And that doesn't preclude rental companies having regular car swap stations on major routes.

[Vern]

I've ridden a 250 Freeride and the suspension and brakes weren't up to scratch, as the electric version has the same running gear I think it will be crap also.
Most of the guys and girls I know who bought Freerides have moved them on.
Ahh that link was for the E bike, not the petrol powered free ride.

[bee utey]

Did full electric cars exist a decade ago? and if they did I wonder what there range was? I think this is progressing very quickly. Would love to see whats in store for us in a decades time.
I reckon good on Tesla for pushing this particular barrow. Can only eventually get better for all of us.
Kenley

Full electric cars have a longer history than petrol cars, their biggest killer was Henry's Model T. A short history of electric cars I found:

Electric Car History (In Depth) (https://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/26/electric-car-history/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/124945d1498209363-real-experience-tesla-suv-life-1914-e1408313735863.jpg

124945

[kenleyfred]

You live and learn. who'd've thunk it.
Kenley

[Tins]

Everyone has their opinion, and are of course entitled to it. Mine is that electric cars are an engineering and developmental cul-de-sac. They are unlikely ever to be a practical alternative to internal combustion. People won't adapt. They want everything now, not in 15 minutes. There is nothing else that can explain MacDonalds.

A proper, efficient, clean alternative already exists. The cars exist, ordinary cars, not exotic flights of fancy like the Tesla. Honda makes one, Hyundai make them, BMW as well. The infrastructure to fuel them exists across California, and can easily exist here. It draws nothing from the grid that petrol, diesel or LPG infrastructure already draws. The cars can be fuelled in much the same time that an ordinary car can. There are no issues punted into the future, such as battery disposal. The cars perform in much the same way as we are used to.

Here's one: 2017 Clarity Fuel Cell – Environmentally-Conscious Vehicles | Honda (https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity)

Here's another:Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Hyundai Australia (https://www.hyundai.com.au/why-hyundai/design-and-innovation/fuel-cell)

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. It requires no 'strip mining' for it's production, unlike batteries. The by products of using hydrogen to power cars are oxygen and water.

Why on earth, if you have environmental concerns, would you support appallingly destructive battery solutions? Destructive in mining, destructive in various stages of processing, and destructive at end of life, AND require grid power for reliable recharging. It is a short sighted route, whose main function seems to be, to me at least, to make Elon Musk rich. Well, I trust Honda way more than I trust a shyster like Musk.

Not saying hydrogen cells are perfect, not by a long way. But they are far closer to it than battery tech.

[Ancient Mariner]

Everyone has their opinion, and are of course entitled to it. Mine is that electric cars are an engineering and developmental cul-de-sac. They are unlikely ever to be a practical alternative to internal combustion. People won't adapt. They want everything now, not in 15 minutes. There is nothing else that can explain MacDonalds.

A proper, efficient, clean alternative already exists. The cars exist, ordinary cars, not exotic flights of fancy like the Tesla. Honda makes one, Hyundai make them, BMW as well. The infrastructure to fuel them exists across California, and can easily exist here. It draws nothing from the grid that petrol, diesel or LPG infrastructure already draws. The cars can be fuelled in much the same time that an ordinary car can. There are no issues punted into the future, such as battery disposal. The cars perform in much the same way as we are used to.

Here's one: 2017 Clarity Fuel Cell – Environmentally-Conscious Vehicles | Honda (https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity)

Here's another:Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Hyundai Australia (https://www.hyundai.com.au/why-hyundai/design-and-innovation/fuel-cell)

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. It requires no 'strip mining' for it's production, unlike batteries. The by products of using hydrogen to power cars are oxygen and water.

Why on earth, if you have environmental concerns, would you support appallingly destructive battery solutions? Destructive in mining, destructive in various stages of processing, and destructive at end of life, AND require grid power for reliable recharging. It is a short sighted route, whose main function seems to be, to me at least, to make Elon Musk rich. Well, I trust Honda way more than I trust a shyster like Musk.

Not saying hydrogen cells are perfect, not by a long way. But they are far closer to it than battery tech.
Isn't Hydrogen produced by coal aka electricity?

AM

[Mick_Marsh]

Isn't Hydrogen produced by coal aka electricity?

AM
Hydrogen is produced by, amongst other ways, running an electrical current through water.
Time for that photo you have Mr bee utey.

[DiscoMick]

So who is going to be first to try a defender to electric conversion.............
I read that LR already has battery systems likely to be offered in the next Defender and other LRs and Jags.

[Tins]

Full electric cars have a longer history than petrol cars, their biggest killer was Henry's Model T. A short history of electric cars I found:

Electric Car History (In Depth) (https://cleantechnica.com/2015/04/26/electric-car-history/)

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/attachments/general-chat/124945d1498209363-real-experience-tesla-suv-life-1914-e1408313735863.jpg

124945

Sure. And while we're at it. let's not forget the Stanley Steamer, another futuristic enterprise, which also preceded Ford.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyoLZOaAXmI

22 years, the company lasted. More, I predict, than Tesla will. No subsidies, remember, unlike Tesla.

[DiscoMick]

Tesla Model S - Battery Swap HD Official - YouTube (https://youtu.be/H5V0vL3nnHY)
Tesla battery swap.

[bee utey]

Hydrogen is produced by, amongst other ways, running an electrical current through water.
Time for that photo you have Mr bee utey.

Obscure as always, Mr Marsh.

.........................................

Anyway, hydrogen is currently sourced predominately from natural gas, so using NG as supplied is probably more efficient. Hydrogen can be sourced by electrolysis of water, the issue there is that the process isn't very efficient and unless electricity is very cheap, not cost competitive. There is some talk about using excess wind and solar power to produce hydrogen, when the grid can't handle an excess of it. The hydrogen can be stored within existing NG infrastructure for later burning or stored at high pressure for refuelling vehicles. It is very difficult to get meaningful amounts of hydrogen into a vehicle tank, so batteries are not outclassed yet. Hydrogen can be more cheaply transported in the form of liquid ammonia and that could be a way of exporting excess solar energy to industrial users all over the world.

[bee utey]

Sure. And while we're at it. let's not forget the Stanley Steamer, another futuristic enterprise, which also preceded Ford.

22 years, the company lasted. More, I predict, than Tesla will. No subsidies, remember, unlike Tesla.

No idea if Tesla as a vehicle manufacturer will survive but battery electric cars are being developed by most major vehicle manufacturers so the result is academic. The battery vs hydrogen war reminds me of the Betamax vs VHS battle, there was only one winner and that had little to do with quality, just whoever got the most machines on the market. The near future isn't looking too rosy for hydrogen cars.

Toyota is planning long-range battery-powered electric cars for 2020 as its hydrogen fuel cells cars are failing | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2016/11/07/toyota-long-range-battery-powered-electric-cars-2020-hydrogen-fuel-cells-failing/)

[Tins]

Hydrogen is produced by, amongst other ways, running an electrical current through water.
Time for that photo you have Mr bee utey.

Far better use for electricity than the manufacturing, all of it, and then the charging and recharging batteries which still need to be disposed of, using more electricity.

I think people need to decide: Do you support electric cars because of their so called environmental qualities, or do you support them for the school run cachet they seem to offer?

The first is spurious at best, unless you are prepared to ignore the massive environmental damage caused by the battery lifecycle, and the fact that nearly all of Tesla recharging will be by electricity supplied from fossil fuel. NIMBY syndrome writ large. The second will be very shortlived, as all 'fashions' are.

[JDNSW]

.....

A proper, efficient, clean alternative already exists. .......

Not saying hydrogen cells are perfect, not by a long way. But they are far closer to it than battery tech.

Hydrogen fuel cells may be performing quite well, but the same cannot be said for the rest of the necessary ecosystem for their widespread use.

Hydrogen (as in a transport fuel) is not a source of energy, it is a means of storing energy. Its terrestrial abundance is irrelevant, and the existence of effective fuel cells is almost as irrelevant!

Hydrogen is expensive, difficult, bulky, and dangerous to store or transport, making it rather impractical to envisage a widespread distribution (or use) of it as there is with petrol, diesel and LPG (and grid power!) today. Transforming a primary energy source such as coal, oil, or gas or even solar or wind energy into hydrogen, distributing it, and then to electrical and then to mechanical energy to use it for transport is no more efficient than the internal combustion cycle, perhaps less so. (You could use the electricity grid to produce hydrogen locally, but it seems to me unlikely that this could ever come close to the energy efficiency of even the current EVs. Batteries as they exist today, are surprisingly energy efficient as a method of storing and transporting energy - they are just expensive, bulky and heavy.)

While there are undoubtedly issues with electric vehicles, I have difficulty seeing hydrogen ever becoming a major transport fuel. While it shares the advantage of being pollution free at the point of use with EVs, the electric vehicles already have a distribution network ready made (called "the grid") with only specialised local connections needing to be installed.

[Mick_Marsh]

Sure. And while we're at it. let's not forget the Stanley Steamer, another futuristic enterprise, which also preceded Ford.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyoLZOaAXmI

22 years, the company lasted. More, I predict, than Tesla will. No subsidies, remember, unlike Tesla.
Steam Powered 1963 Ford Falcon - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJq2Hc_mXFI)

[Tins]

While there are undoubtedly issues with electric vehicles, I have difficulty seeing hydrogen ever becoming a major transport fuel. While it shares the advantage of being pollution free at the point of use with EVs, the electric vehicles already have a distribution network ready made (called "the grid") with only specialised local connections needing to be installed.

All you are doing is repeating my issues with batteries. You miss the point that the cars exist now, and the infrastructure could be as simple as the one that supports LPG now. You also miss that this infrastructure is already available in a number of countries, and that it is supported by a number of heavy hitters in the auto industry, who have a vested interest in continuing to manufacture cars. Honda, Hyundai and BMW are not fly by night companies seeking to gain subsidies from gullible Governments. Tesla is.

You also miss the point: The grid is powered by coal. All the wind lunacy will not change that. Or, are you willing to accept that you will remain wherever you happen to be when your battery goes flat until the wind blows? Or, are we back to the battery storage argument again? Neither works.

As for a distribution network, I mentioned California for a specific reason. I am not a fan of California's eco policies, but I recognise that they have unique difficulties. LA's car culture, and the smog it generates, coupled with Hollywood's holier than thou attitude seems particularly hypocritical. But, California has the tightest pollution laws in the world, and yet they have the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars. In fact they have mandated it at a certain level. So, you drive your Honda Clarity for around 500 miles, and just pop into a servo and fill it up. It takes the same time as filling up your normal car, costs around the same, and off you go. What's not to like?

Providing a hydrogen fuelling network is easier than providing 'changeover' Tesla batteries, and the technicians needed to fit them. It is easier than continuing to find sources of oil and then refining it. It is easier than decimating the countryside by strip mining it for the materials to make batteries, and it is easier than recycling the batteries that already exist.

IMO, hydrogen is the future, and Musk is a charlatan in the same vein as Gore.

[DiscoMick]

Coal will only be providing about 20 percent of our electricity by 2050, according to Finkel, with most coming from gas, solar, wind and hydro. It will be stored in battery banks in houses, sub-stations, other buildings and at power plants. Lithium batteries will be mass produced at low cost and recharged by a mostly renewable grid. Can't see how hydrogen can compete with that.

[JDNSW]

.... You miss the point that the cars exist now, and the infrastructure could be as simple as the one that supports LPG now.

No. Hydrogen cannot be liquified at room temperature by application of modest pressure. In fact, hydrogen cannot be liquified at temperatures above about -240C, so transport and storage as a liquid requires cryogenic insulation. Additionally, hydrogen will permeate through almost all materials at quite low pressures, and the leaking gas is explosive over a very wide range of proportions with air. So no, there is no way the infrastructure is near as simple as the one that supports LPG.

You also miss that this infrastructure is already available in a number of countries,
But only in areas of high population density.
and that it is supported by a number of heavy hitters in the auto industry, who have a vested interest in continuing to manufacture cars. Honda, Hyundai and BMW are not fly by night companies seeking to gain subsidies from gullible Governments. Tesla is.

Many of these established car manufacturers are also pushing towards electric cars. I hold no brief for Tesla, and in fact I will be slightly surprised if in the end they survive as a car manufacturer - I simply think that electric cars have a far brighter future than do hydrogen powered ones.

You also miss the point: The grid is powered by coal. All the wind lunacy will not change that. Or, are you willing to accept that you will remain wherever you happen to be when your battery goes flat until the wind blows? Or, are we back to the battery storage argument again? Neither works.

The Australian grid is powered by coal - but not necessarily so. If you follow the news, Australia's Chief Scientist thinks it will only supply 20% of Australia's grid power in thirty years. Some countries have grid power predominantly supplied by hydro, nuclear, wind, solar. The simple fact for Australia is that nobody is going to lend or invest to build coal fired new power stations in Australia today or in the future, as the writing is on the wall. And all existing stations are approaching end of life within a decade or two. Only this week the largest solar farm in the southern hemisphere was announced for NSW.

As for a distribution network, I mentioned California for a specific reason. I am not a fan of California's eco policies, but I recognise that they have unique difficulties. LA's car culture, and the smog it generates, coupled with Hollywood's holier than thou attitude seems particularly hypocritical. But, California has the tightest pollution laws in the world, and yet they have the infrastructure to support hydrogen powered cars. In fact they have mandated it at a certain level. So, you drive your Honda Clarity for around 500 miles, and just pop into a servo and fill it up. It takes the same time as filling up your normal car, costs around the same, and off you go. What's not to like?

California is one of the most densely populated areas in the world, as you say it also has the tightest pollution laws in world - it is not a matter of "yet", but a matter of "hence".

Providing a hydrogen fuelling network is easier than providing 'changeover' Tesla batteries, and the technicians needed to fit them. It is easier than continuing to find sources of oil and then refining it. It is easier than decimating the countryside by strip mining it for the materials to make batteries, and it is easier than recycling the batteries that already exist.

Providing a hydrogen fuelling network is easier than changeover batteries only in a place like California - and increasing battery capacity and charging technology is likely to make changeover less necessary. And use of hydrogen rather than batteries has nothing to do with energy supply. Whether you use batteries or stored hydrogen to provide portable energy for transport is independent of where the energy comes from. Why cannot people realise this? Using hydrogen as a transport fuel has no impact on oil production and exploration or coal mining. Changes in these have nothing to do with whether electric or hydrogen cars or even fossil fuel cars are used! Today 95% of hydrogen produced comes from steam reforming of natural gas! And the energy efficiency of this conversion, distribution of the hydrogen, and use in current hydrogen cars, is well below that of simply using that natural gas CNG in existing cars with the gas grid and compressor stations as a distribution network, or even refining, distributing and using petrol.

IMO, hydrogen is the future, and Musk is a charlatan in the same vein as Gore.

No argument with you about Musk, but I don't totally discount his products eventually succeeding. But Tesla is not the total electric car business, just the most flamboyant. Consider for example the smartphone - effectively invented by Apple, only ten years ago this week! Now ubiquitous - but are most of them made by Apple?

[DiscoMick]

Several companies are investing big in advanced battery factories.
List of electric vehicle battery manufacturers - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electric_vehicle_battery_manufacturers)
Chart: China Leading the Charge for Lithium-Ion Megafactories (http://www.visualcapitalist.com/china-leading-charge-lithium-ion-megafactories/)
I also read that Germany is also planning a huge new plant.

[bee utey]

Soon many vehicle manufacturers will be offering smaller simpler electric cars with less bells and whistles and these will make even more sense within a city environment. VW's e-Golf is one model that has been quietly gaining in capacity in some northern hemisphere markets. I reckon I could handle owning one for the missus to do her shopping with, short range and all. She rarely strays more than 60km from home these days so range isn't an issue just as recharge time isn't either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LZNQBfm9U

A hybrid that will suit some buyers.

[VladTepes]

I'm pretty much onboard with what johntins is saying in this thread re battery / electric vehicles.

I have insufficient knowledge of hydrogen fuel cells to really comment on that, but really what could go wrong?
126445


I think that the greenies are kidding themselves if they think we can supply enough power to run our cities, towns and vehicles from solar panels, wind turbines and unicorn poo.

The best way forward for Australia in that regard would definitely be nuclear.. but of course they won't have a bar of that will they....

[Mick_Marsh]

Hydrogen is in the US.
Hydrogen Cars of 2017 - Toyota Murai and Honda Clarity (http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a26867/hydrogen-cars-toyota-murai-honda-clarity/)

Soon to be expanded.
Coming soon to US highways: clean, quiet hydrogen cars | afr.com (http://www.afr.com/technology/coming-soon-to-us-highways-clean-quiet-hydrogen-cars-20170521-gw9xlk)

But, what of Australia?
The breakdown: hydrogen on the horizon (http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/the-breakdown-hydrogen-on-the-horizon-20170623-gwxnp2.html)

The South Australian Government announced on Thursday that it will grant $8.2 million over four years for a hydrogen production and distribution site for fuel-cell-powered electric vehicles including at least six buses.
Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle - Hyundai Australia (https://www.hyundai.com.au/why-hyundai/design-and-innovation/fuel-cell)

[bee utey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC4xTqoXaa8

[cripesamighty]

John Cadogan has some interesting videos over the last week or so on EV's, everything from the PHEV to Tesla. Worth a look, even just for a laugh.

[craig a]

As yet the best batteries only have a lifespan of 10 to 15 years if they are kept in optimum condition. The lifespan and usable capacity reduce significantly otherwise. Not sure what Tesla deems its battery life is but it sure would be an expensive service.

[bob10]

The new Tesla 3 .

Tesla Model 3 revealed: Everything you need to know about Tesla's $50k EV (http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/tesla-model-3-revealed-everything-you-need-to-know-about-teslas-dollar50k-ev/ar-AAoZKl5?li=AA8ewQ&ocid=spartandhp)

[bob10]

Some photos of the inside. 8 year warranty on the battery pack.

Tesla Model 3 quick drive review | CarAdvice (http://www.caradvice.com.au/570816/tesla-model-3-quick-drive-review/'source=trending&slot=0)

[goingbush]

I'm converting my Series 3 to Electric right now, started ordering parts actually .

Not for any green reason, just because I want to study the technology and for the 'project' , and because I can get a very good deal on batteries. Plus I only drive it locally and the short trips are killing it. (And I'm sick of the petrol fumes)

Im ordering a HPEVS AC51 motor a 60kg 88hp 3phase AC motor , with 144v worth of 180ah LiPoFe4 3.2v cells .

if your interested to know whats inside one of these cells ,


https://youtu.be/MUg9W4CbZUQ

[bee utey]

When Yankees build an electric 4WD prototype:

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/791.jpg
Bollinger Motors (http://bollingermotors.com/)

[ATH]

"8 year warranty on the battery pack." My elder bro had a hybrid Lexus for years but flogged it at about 6 years old as he was quoted something like $US8K plus for a new battery pack in Switzerland.
Now that's not going to hurt the smug gits in government or the burueacraps they employ who get them for from the taxpayer, but it's going to upset a few cab drivers (and others) who drive Prius etc. when they're hit with a bill like that.
What a brave new world we're heading towards when government policy is driven by fear mongering from weirdos in green.
By all means stop as much pollution as possible but that should include the biggest polluters on the planet as well not just the gullible western nations taxpayers.
AlanH.

[bee utey]

"8 year warranty on the battery pack." My elder bro had a hybrid Lexus for years but flogged it at about 6 years old as he was quoted something like $US8K plus for a new battery pack in Switzerland.


How does that compare with the replacement cost of a TDV6 or TDV8 engine? I seem to read about them blowing up on a regular basis. Plus all the services and oil changes and turbos etc for 10 years.

[goingbush]

Its going to happen, like it or not .

Obviously battery technology needs to improve, as well as install inductive charging lanes.

UK to follow France in banning petrol and diesel cars by 2040 – going all electric | Electrek (https://electrek.co/2017/07/25/uk-banning-new-petrol-diesel-cars-2040-all-electric/)

[goingbush]

meanwhile in Victoria ,

SEA Automotive delivers first electric trucks in Victoria (http://www.caradvice.com.au/568448/sea-automotive-delivers-first-electric-trucks-in-victoria/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)

[PAT303]

How does that compare with the replacement cost of a TDV6 or TDV8 engine? I seem to read about them blowing up on a regular basis. Plus all the services and oil changes and turbos etc for 10 years.

There is a massive expansion of lithium mining in WA to supply lithium for battery production,plus a $100 million plant kicking off in Kwinana to process it,do you have any idea of the staggering amount of pollution that will be produced so all the tree hugggers can drive their ''Green'' vehicles?. More than the 10ltres per 100 my two defenders average,or the 6ltres of engine oil they need replaced twice/three times per year. Pat

[PAT303]

meanwhile in Victoria ,

SEA Automotive delivers first electric trucks in Victoria (http://www.caradvice.com.au/568448/sea-automotive-delivers-first-electric-trucks-in-victoria/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share)

I like the Zero emission bit,were does the power come from?.Lets see if they are still going in 6 months. Pat

[bob10]

How would you go with a roof full of solar panels?

[PAT303]

Try it Bob. Pat

[bee utey]

do you have any idea of the staggering amount of pollution that will be produced so all the tree hugggers can drive their ''Green'' vehicles?.

Where do you get your scripts from? Mining done in a civilised country for recyclable batteries vs stuff that gets dug up and burnt once.

BTW I don't know what tree "huggggggggers" are or what they have to do with anything, hard headed business and finance bods are driving the way to the future.

[ramblingboy42]

government policy is driven by fear mongering from weirdos in green.

really Ath?

what a stupid thing to say.....

[cripesamighty]

Although touchy-feely, "Zero emissions" is essentially rubbish. The situation as it currently stands with EV's is that they remove noxious emissions from inner cities where EV's are predominantly used, which is awesome. Instead, the emissions are dumped far away during the power generation for the national grid by not so clean means (at least in Australia). You also have to take into account all the toxic chemicals and processes used in producing these vehicles and batteries, plus their disposal. John Cadogan did a nice summary last week and that pretty much sums up what a uni friend of mine (Physicist working on Remote Area Power Supplies) told me last year. It's going to take quite a while for battery storage and capacitor technology to catch up with demand for more storage and an even longer while before 'clean' electricity generation catches up as well. It's at least a start in the right direction though.

[goingbush]

How would you go with a roof full of solar panels?

as well as the high voltage system for the motor , anything from 72v to over 300v Electric cars need a traditional 12V system to run the ABS / Lights / Vacuum pump for the brakes , 12v power steering etc etc . Roof solar panels are often used on electric cars to keep the 12v charged rather than sapping from the HV system with a DC-DC charger.

I guess you could use an inverter to trickle charge the HV system but the time vs efficiency losses , would be pointless

[goingbush]

interesting.

UK to ban petrol vehicles by 2040. Will it happen in Australia? - The Daily Drive - Omny.fm (https://omny.fm/shows/the-daily-drive/uk-to-ban-petrol-vehicles-by-2040-will-it-happen-i)

[bob10]

Qld. to roll out electric super highway, Brisbane to Cairns.

Queensland electric car 'super highway' announced, with 18 fast charging locations - Science News - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-27/free-charging-stations-to-boost-queensland-electric-car-numbers/8748246'section=science)

[bob10]

Not sure if this has been posted, but Volvo goes electric.

Volvo: Car manufacturer goes electric, ditches vehicles powered solely by internal combustion engine - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-06/volvo-goes-electric,-ditches-cars-powered-solely-by-gas/8683850)

[bob10]

Not sure if this has been posted, Aus. Post is going electric.

Australia Post explores new age of letter, parcel delivery with electric vehicles - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-07/australia-post-explores-electric-vehicles-for-mail-deliveries/8598036)

[ATH]

We had early morning milk deliveries in the UK by electric vehicles over 50 years ago. Very slow and I suspect the range wasn't great but then it wasn't really necessary as they went back to the depot for recharging for the next days work.
Trolley buses as well in some bigger towns which were better than trams as they were more manoeuvrable.
Of course there wasn't the population or traffic about then that there is now so slow progress didn't matter so much.
My mate and I used to get a lift from one milkman as we staggered home from a nights boozing and he was setting off on his run.
Once they get over the longevity problems of batteries and charging probs. they will make a difference in cities at least but for the long haul here and in other countries I bet diesels got a long life yet.
But as I won't be drawing breath then it won't affect me one way or the other.
AlanH.

[PhilipA]

I say calm down and have a nice cuppa.


The most recent Queensland Household Energy Survey showed that 50 per cent of Queenslanders will consider an electric vehicle, plug-in hybrid or regenerative braking hybrid, when purchasing a new car in the next two years, and that majority said improvements to public fast-charging infrastructure would further tempt them into purchasing an EV," Mr Miles said.

The three things quoted are very different things . I wonder how many actually said they would buy a totally electric vehicle?

It looks like the QLD government are going to SUBSIDISE the ownership of $138K plus vehicles. Great public policy! Perhaps they can make grants to pensioners to buy one. California are going to SUBSIDISE Elon Musk by refunding to buyers the difference in cost between a Tesla and a conventional car , up to maybe 40K. Again great public policy. Subsidise the rich.

Electric vehicles are making great inroads into short haul tasks like posties and Dominos , but Dominos still deliver to my place (hilly and 5Km from the shop ) by car. The electric bikes seemingly for the local flat areas around Kincumber, although one was sighted in the harbour tunnel.( much to the RMS controller's chagrin)

The Post Office article is "virtue signalling" as those trikes would be absolutely hopeless where I live but will probably be very successful in Woolloongabba which is a flat in most parts city area. It is seductive to Oz post as they have extra staff to stock up the mail drop boxes on the posties' routes.

I personally would maybe buy a hybrid for local travel but I will probably keep my current cars until I die or maybe until they put a recharge station at ABC bay.

Anyway the hysteria gives lots of AULRO members to post breathlessly optimistic articles about things that have yet to happen

Regards Philip A

[Lewy110]

I have looked into electric and hybrid cars.

For me it makes more sense to ride my pushy to work everyday and have a 34 year old Landy to use on the weekends. I am sure it's green credits have been offset over the years.

127206

The ultimate would be a cargo bike for the wife to go shopping with.

127207

[bob10]

Servicing schedules are good.

Tesla Model 3 designed to travel "a million miles between services", says Musk (http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/tesla-model-3-designed-to-travel-a-million-miles-between-services-says-musk/ar-AAp7O0D?li=AA8ewQ&ocid=spartandhp)

[bob10]

I say calm down and have a nice cuppa.



The three things quoted are very different things . I wonder how many actually said they would buy a totally electric vehicle?

It looks like the QLD government are going to SUBSIDISE the ownership of $138K plus vehicles.



Regards Philip A

The Qld Gov. are building recharge stations from Brisbane to Cairns. They will be free for a time, then a charge will apply. Can't see where they are going to subsidise anything. EDIT the price of a new Tesla 3 is put as $44,000 AUD.

[trog]

I have looked into electric and hybrid cars.

For me it makes more sense to ride my pushy to work everyday and have a 34 year old Landy to use on the weekends. I am sure it's green credits have been offset over the years.

127206

The ultimate would be a cargo bike for the wife to go shopping with.

127207

Oh my , he is happily cycling along without hi viz and a helmet. Wouldn't happen here.
Saw plenty of these last year in Toronto for both light courier work and food delivery. Certainly quicker than those road registered and licensed scooters that I see around town. Riding two up , a big fo of satchel on the pillion rider and the operator struggling to get it going while fiddling with the gps. I know what I would rather share the road with .

[cripesamighty]

delete this. duplicate post

[cripesamighty]

Just found this today - best use for a Tesla ever.

Look up foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com and check out this story;
"Here's A Practical Use For A Tesla Model S: A U-2 Spy Plane Chase Car".

I would love that job!

[DiscoMick]

How would you go with a roof full of solar panels?
Monier is already selling solar roof tiles. It would be interesting to get a quote.
SolarTile | Roof Tiles | Monier (http://monier.com.au/Products/Solar)

[Mick_Marsh]

Hell of a link there.

It worked.

[cripesamighty]

I ended up deleting it as it was way too long.

[Mick_Marsh]

I ended up deleting it as it was way too long.

Who cares how long it is, it worked.

[cripesamighty]

Am happy to put it back. See below.

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2.538 2.54 5.9 3.94 9.466 3.94 3.57 0 6.93-1.4 9.47-3.94s3.94-5.9 3.94-9.46V20.99h1.96v13.545c0 4.087-1.6 7.94-4.51 10.85-2.91 2.908-6.76 4.51-10.85 4.51" fill="%23000"/><\/g><\/svg>')}.f_branding_on.blog-group-splinter .storybreak-branded-b,.f_branding_on .blog-group-splinter .storybreak-branded-b,.f_branding_on.f_branding_splinter_on .storybreak-branded-b{display:none !important}</style><script>window._K_MSGS = []; window._K_MSG_L = function (e) {_K_MSGS.push(e);}; window.addEventListener('message', window._K_MSG_L);</script><link rel="preload" href="//x.kinja-static.com/assets/stylesheets/blog-1e1f625dc8f8de110b1b9fc69037f1f5.css" as="style" onload="this.rel='stylesheet'"><link rel="preload" href="//x.kinja-static.com/assets/stylesheets/insets-bb6391ca3e21c945fc79536c48eb665d.css" as="style" onload="this.rel='stylesheet'"><script src="https://kinja.com/api/profile/accountwithtoken?jsonp=_fasttoken&newFollows=true" async defer></script><meta name="dynamic-stylesheet" id="editor-css-url" content="//x.kinja-static.com/assets/stylesheets/editor-812bf084afe33fb47ac01b5bd832218a.css"><meta name="google-site-verification" content="P13oAn8o8LB6FVCJWKsHWXvxfbR-SJrmvox6EgULpUs" /><meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, minimum-scale=1.0,maximum-scale=10.0" /><meta name="ROBOTS" content="INDEX, FOLLOW" /><title>Here&#39;s A Practical Use For A Tesla Model S: A U-2 Spy Plane Chase Car (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/heres-a-practical-use-for-a-tesla-model-s-a-u-2-spy-pl-1797408224)

[bee utey]

Next time use the "Link" button on the control panel, ends up like this: Link


(https://www.aulro.com/afvb/redirect-to/'redirect=http%3A%2F%2Ffoxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com%2 Fheres-a-practical-use-for-a-tesla-model-s-a-u-2-spy-pl-1797408224)

[bee utey]

Reviewers of Tesla’s Newest Vehicle Are Unanimous: “The Model 3 Has No Competition” (https://futurism.com/reviewers-of-teslas-newest-vehicle-are-unanimous-the-model-3-has-no-competition/)

[bob10]

I view it as a Wright brothers moment. The dinosaurs will be left behind, it is the future.

[bob10]

Try it Bob. Pat

On the electric car Pat, I mean.

[goingbush]

My Rover adaptor kit arrived today from Canadian Electric Vehicles, to adapt Electric motor to Land Rover gearbox. Also in the crate were a pair of Ceramic heater elements too fit inside my Smith heater housing so I can have a working heater / demister , Instant heat like a Hair Dryer - (none of this waiting for the engine to warm up) Nice bit of kit :)

[goingbush]

well that didn't work !

[Vern]

How does that compare with the replacement cost of a TDV6 or TDV8 engine? I seem to read about them blowing up on a regular basis. Plus all the services and oil changes and turbos etc for 10 years.Or a 200series motor at $30k!

[Mick_Marsh]

well that didn't work !
What? The batteries were flat?

[DiscoMick]

Uber's 24,000-car deal with Volvo and its link to a driverless future - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-21/uber-has-struck-a-24,000-car-deal-with-volvo/9175036)

[bee utey]

A close look at Tesla's position vs the rest of the car manufacturers getting into electrics:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHM82UzRCkA

[Mick_Marsh]

The big problem with electric vehicle resale prices compared to petrol, diesel and hybrid cars - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-06/electric-vehicle-resale-price-compared-to-petrol-diesel-hybrid/9380186)


How lithium-ion electric car batteries could still power your home once they've run out of zap - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-07/what-could-happen-to-electric-vehicle-batteries/9398100)

[101 Ron]

Been reading the early parts of this thread with interest.
Battery exchange in electric vehicles has been going on for 50 years or more in Australia with the process only taking a few minutes.
Electric vehicle battery recycling has been going on in Australia for about the same time.
I am in the forklift game.
All large electric forklifts from 80 percent of electric forklift manufactures have quick change batteries which only take a few mintues to change.
To work a electric forklift or tow tug vehicle 24 hours per day will take 3 batteries, one in use and 2 on charge.
The heavy batteries are changed over by a roller set up or overhead crane with lifting sling designed for the purpose.
Of course these batteries are lead acid.
Lithium batteries are now available for electric industrial vehicles.
Factories and industrial sites which use electric industrial vehicles in a large scale have dictated charging rooms and AC multi phase power supply.
Nothing is new.
In Australia electric industrial vehicles are not the main type in use.
The main reason is purchase cost.
The copper and alloys used in electric vehicle manufacture and extra energy used in producing them makes them double the cost of a LPGas forklift or tow tug.
Lead acid battery life is anywhere from 4 to 20 years with a average of 8 years.
The problem these days the new battery cells,are coming from China so battery life tends to be shorter than 20 years ago.
Battery purchase price is expensive and alot of LPGas can be purchased for the price of a single battery.
The electric industrial vehicle resale is is extremely low or near zero if it is sold with a old battery as no one wants to take a 5 to 8 k hit to the bank balance on a second hand vehicle a short time after purchasing it.
Weight with forklifts is not a disadvantage and in some applications a electric forklift will out perform is internal combustion equivalent, especially if the unit is a high end espensive machine .
Electric industrial vehicles have cheaper day to day servicing cost than internal combustion.
Industrial electrical,vehicles had a more expensive option up until the mid 1970s of iron peroxide ?? Batteries which had a almost unlimited life time by just flushing out the cells every 10 years or so and adding new chemicals and it would be good for another 10 years...........the batteries companies took them off the market..........they were worried about losing money.
Ships in the 1930s used the same sort of battery because of the long life.
Lithium batteries in forklifts need weights added to the battery case so the forklift can lift the designed loads.

[101 Ron]

LPGas and diesel forklift and industrial vehicles have cheaper to purchase replacement parts and a Internal cusbustion engine if looked after has a far more certain and known costs with rebuilding it over time compared to a battery which lifes could suddenly end without warning.
I owned a road going electric car with lead acid batteries in the mid 1980s when electric cars were non existant on our roads.
It was a British made Enfield electric.
Even
With lead acid technology the off the mark acceleration could spin the rear wheels.
Point the thing at hill and it was a joke..........it always got to the top but may be at 20 mph.
The Enfield was single speed , but had a good electric motor using compound windings which it also used for speed control with voltage switching too.
No regen braking or electronics...........simple , but the electrical side of it worked.
It is interesting someone over in England found one of these things and fitted modern brushless motor, electronics and Lithium batteries and nothing much can get near it over the quarter mile.
The Enfield just needed to get rid of the heavy batteries for some thing lighter and I knew it could perform.
The future is either in full electric in smaller vehicles with reinforced electric in small to medium vehicles for much longer ranges.
Hybrid is a heavy expensive to produce and complicated.
Having a fully electric drive system with the option of a small alloy petrol, LPG diesel generator motor of say 5 hp running only if you want to do a long trip.
The weight off set of a small 5 hp genset is small.
If doing Sydney to Melbourne a 5 hp genset would give you the range with a very small fuel cost and use.
A round town the weight of the small now not used genset would decrease range little.
The cost of production is little above a normal fully electric
If the vehicle is driven until the battery is discharged and is protected by the electronics the small on board genset could in time provide enough power to drive the vehicle to the next recharge station..

[101 Ron]

What will push us to electric is the unreliable anti pollution internal cumbustion motor with more crap on them evey year.
You can only eat so much of your own poo before you call it quits.
In Australia the electricity system is in so poor a state and a future lack of base load generation that a big up take of electric vehicles is not possible even if the politicians think it is.
Australias short to medium term vehicle energy source should be LPGas as we have plenty of it if we stop giving it away over seas.
CNG,LPG are reasonably clean,simple and especially with LPG infrastructure is largely in place.
Govt just needs to get rid of the tax on.LPG to off set its higher storage costs and it would take off without any further help.
Did I mention we have something like a 300 year supply of shale oil in Australia............digging it up would up set the greenies too much until we have to walk every where.............cracking shale also provides large amounts of fuel Gas, but at a higher cost to natural gas or petroleum gas.

[101 Ron]

Modern electric and even internal combustion vehicles owe something to electric forklifts and other industrial electric vehicles.
On forklifts have had on some models direct electric drive assisted steering since the late 1970s..........only just come out on cars recently.
In the mid 1990s California was going to make electric cars compulsory base on a prototype electric car using lead acid batteries and up to date electronics and motors giving 90 mile range.
After production was started they wisely chicken out at the last minute.
All the production cars were destroyed to hide the error of the greenie law makers of the time.( and GM who made the electric cars wanted to sell Internal combustion)
It was the Tesla of its time and would have been if the Lithium batteries were fitted which by the time the last ones were destroyed was 2002 ?????? Lithum batteries were just getting off the ground.
The AC motor tech and the compact high current inverter tech, large power transistors tech, regen tech was all taken from forklifts and had been used in electric forklifts since the mid 1980s including on board self diagnostic and liquid crystal displays etc.

Nothing is really new............it just comes of age in a sightly different way.

[101 Ron]

I,forgot one other thing.
Self driving forklifts have been around since the very early 1970s and they have been up dated over time now using GPS tech and camera with wireless communications and order picking. ..........another thing been there done that in forklifts many years earlier than late model cars.
The 1970s collision avoidance was by use of special light beams instead of radar and sonics etc.

[jerryd]

I like this early Tesla [smilebigeye]


Electric Car (1948) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LbEvfIkAQA)

[donh54]

I like this early Tesla [smilebigeye]


Electric Car (1948) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LbEvfIkAQA)

Council would book him for parking on the footpath here!

[JDNSW]

A lot of people seem unaware that electric cars go back a long way, in fact to the 19th century. They represented a viable part of the motor industry certainly up to WW1, but lingered on in special circumstances. For example, Jean-Albert Gregoire of Tracta fame built and operated an electric car in Paris during WW2.

To the early motorist the electric car had a lot of advantages - no clutch or gearbox, so easy to learn to drive, quiet, reliable and odour free. As against this, they were slow, unlike the Tesla, but like Tesla suffered from range anxiety, worry about battery life, and were horrendously expensive.

What effectively marked the end for the electric car except in special circumstances was the introduction of the electric starter and the cheap, mass produced cars introduced by Henry Ford and William Morris and others in the 1910-1920 period.

[Mick_Marsh]

A work colleague has a hybrid Camry.

Leaving work last night, we had a short chat about Camrys in the car park. Looking at his Camry I commented "Perhaps I should get a hybrid Camry. Look, it even has a towbar."
"No.", he replied. "It's not advisable to use it."
Apparently, it can tow up to 400kg but not at 100km/h on the freeway. The electric motor can't hack it.

Now, electric motors can be strong, with loads of torque, at high speed. Think diesel electric locomotives. However, they need big heavy motors and lots of current and voltage to do it i.e. lots of high capacity batteries.

What size caravan can the Tesla tow? What is the range of the Tesla towing a van on a 39 degree day with the a/c going flat out?