koni vs. bilsteins

[jasper110]

this is a follow on from the post "old man emu shocks.." i apologise to those who have read the following in that post, however i posted again as this now involves different brands. ie koni owners may not look at a post involving OME.

anyway,

continuing my quest for replacement rear shocks for a heavily loaded 110, do you guys have opinions on KONI and BILSTEIN shock absorbers.
as earlier posted, i'm looking for an improved road ride.

thaks very much.

[hiline]

BILSTEIN and landrover go hand in hand https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ :wink:

[weeds]

i asked the owner of my rig when i picked it up why he only had bilsteins on the front and not on the rear, he indicated that bilsteins are not doubled walled (i wouldn't have a clue about the construction of shocks) therefore if fitted to the rear they are more prone to damage from rocks etc, it sounded like a reasonable explanation however i am no expert

i will follow this post as i will be changing the shocks before my trip next year

[loanrangie]

Koni's on my rangie - great handling on the great ocean rd and adjustable/ rebuildable.

[JamesH]

I lost a rear Bilstein (admittedly after 100000k of faithful service) in a way they seemed to support what Weeds said. I replaced both rears with Bilsteins on advice from my LR mechanic (and AULRO).

The first owner of my Landy put a lot of fruit on it that I get the benefit out of, aux tank, dual batteries, snorkel, chequer plate, bonnet mount and bull bar. I asked him which one he thought was the first thing he'd do if he got another Defender he said "Easy, Bilsteins. And this time I wouldn't wait for the originals to go, I'd do it straightaway. Transformed the handling of the vehicle"

Having said all that - I'd say Konis would serve you well too.

[Slunnie]

If its heavily loaded I would definately go the Bilsteins over Konis. Konis by design can fade which is a touring problem, Bilsteins cant.

[Frenchie]

What price Bilsteins and where is the best place to get them??

[Slunnie]

Not sure on best, but I've bought at $380pr from Heasmans (Sydney Shocks), although I'd also try Norbert on Overlander forums.

[JamesH]

Frenchie I did a fair bit of phoning around last year when I replaced my rear pair.

I checked my records and the bill from Guest & Puddey was $380 installed or close to that.

[weeds]

as i will be looking at replacing mine early next i thought i would send an email and here is the response, the agents listed are for Brisbane.

Kelvin,

Bilstein shocks for your vehicle are in fact single walled (mono tube construction) and it is good practice to put stone shields ($22 a pair) on the back units. The material thickness of the wall is 2mm, which is far greater than any other brand. Expect to pay around $800 for all 4 units. You can buy through Fulcrum Suspension in Moorooka: 3892 9000 or GSA Wholesale in Slacks Creek 3808 4698. If you have a 130 chassis there are the 4 heavy rate units for $950.

Regards,

Tony

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>If its heavily loaded I would definately go the Bilsteins over Konis. Konis by design can fade which is a touring problem, Bilsteins cant.[/b][/quote]

Billies can fade as well, just takes longer. Koni have available two larger bore dampers that would overcome this but $$.
FWIW, I hooked up a thermocouple to the front 82 series Konis and headed off down a local dirt road for 40km at drive it like I stole it speeds. Airborne, sideways every corner, bottoming out regularly, etc, and the temps were only 8* above ambient and performance was fine. However, if you were hammering down a corrugated track for the best part of a day, They will go out to lunch.
Did a run across Barrington Tops (much slower, but much rougher) in a Patrol with Billies, and almost burnt the skin off my fingers when I casually touched the body after the run, they dissipate the heat that well.

[Slunnie]

The twin tubes shocks fade from airation as the gas and oil are not physically seperated, and gas passes through the shock valving a lot better than the oil. Bilstein is unable to airate as the gas is seperated from the oil by a piston. It makes no difference if the Bilstein is hot or cold apart from any changes in the viscosity of the fluid. I think this also allows the Bilsteins to run a stiffer valving which offers more control without frying. A Rancho on the stiffest setting lasts about 15-20mins on dirt before you throw it away.

[Bubbles]

I would advise against Konis.

I fitted Konis and heavier Lovells to my 300tdi Discovery to cope with a reasonably heavy load over Talawanna Track and CSR. The Konis lost all damping after less than a day, and did not return until after some hours on bitumen 3 weeks later. Vehicle was left constantly bottoming and unable to grip up sandhills. Soon after return I found 1 front spring broken and the other with stress cracks along coil.

The other vehicle on trip was a standard Defender wagon which carried more load and had no damping or clearance issues.

My previous vehicle was a 110 with Lovells and Konis. It also seemed to lose damping control over corrugations and fast dirt roads.

At this stage my vehicle has the original shocks fitted with raised Kings springs. I still would like better shock performance and am interested in standard Defender Boge units but am keen to hear other drivers experiences.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:blue">from what ive heard from different landy owners......

i second what hiline said.....
and will fit some to lurch some time soon......
(hopefully if funds allow...as of monday i am officially unemployed.....)</span>

[rick130]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'>The twin tubes shocks fade from airation as the gas and oil are not physically seperated, and gas passes through the shock valving a lot better than the oil[/b][/quote]

Its heat that causes the fluid to cavitate and airate. A mono-tube damper will do this as well, it's just that the boiling point of the fluid is raised dramatically by raising the pressure on the system thanks to the gas chamber and floating piston, and a mono-tube damper dissipates heat far better than a twin (or triple tube. Why do Rancho do this ??) Stick a remote can with a floating piston on a twin tube and it will equal a mono-tube in this area (OME LTR anyone https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ )
Generally, the forces generated internally for a given amount of damping are less in a mono-tube damper vs a twin tube due to it's increased piston size (Bilstein 46mm, Koni Heavy track 33mm) but this isn't a problem in the spring rates and motion ratios used in road cars.
Where this first became a noted problem was in the days of Ground Effects F1 and the banning of sliding skirts. To overcome pitch and heave upsetting the underwing, wheel and spring rates went through the roof (the cars effectively becoming karts) and the motion ratios used on the rocker suspensions were so tiny, so the forces that needed to be generated by a 33mm piston to control a 1500+lb/in spring in rebound in a couple of millimetres of shaft movement were becomming excessive. A 46mm piston was able to build the damping force quicker, with less internal pressure, and the dampers weren't fading (as badly) after a 2hr GP.
Of course, the off-road racing blokes had been aware of this for the prior ten years. https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ It's interesting that motion ratios have increased dramatically in the last ten years, and small piston dampers are back in vogue in open wheel race cars (smaller=lighter & less internal friction)

Koni also has an adjustable mono-tube damper (46mm) for 4wds, as well as two larger bore twin tubes, based on their truck shocks. The largest of these uses a 41mm piston, is close to 70mm in diameter (for oil capacity/cooling) and is aimed at 'Raid' type competitors as it can take the knocks (the outer tube is 2mm wall) and resists fade well. It's also stupid expensive, although less than half the price of a proper rally/raid shock like an Ohlins or Reiger. The two Koni importers in Oz tend to push the twin tube shock for 4wd's (I'm guessing they feel it's better suited to rough off road use)

Bubbles, had you bottomed out really badly anywhere ?
What you describe is symptomatic of when they go metal to metal internally. Bits of foot valve and adjuster nut end up getting caught under the valve stack on the piston and in the foot valve, rendering the shock useless. Eventually they sort of flush out, and the damper sort of functions again. If they had just faded from overheating/airated fluid, they are generally ok after a couple of hours cool down.
I've bottomed badly enough to have a couple of Koni's go metal to metal, and the results inside the shock aren't pretty.
I've also heard of Bilsteins failing on a similar type of trip as yours (blowing shaft seals), although I don't believe this is normal, and I have no hesitation in recommending Bilsteins or Konis to anyone.

[Defender200Tdi]

I had Bilsteins on my old Disco, but now have twin tube Konis on my Defender. I found the Bilsteins to last extremely well, but I thought the damping was much too harsh for the Disco. On a minor point, I also hated the double locknuts on the Bilstein pin ends. They look flimsy and cheap, and needed to be replaced with proper nylocks. Admittedly, that wasn't hard to do.

The Konis so far have been fine, and I do 90% fast (by Tdi standards) dirt driving. The rears still need some kind of stone shield on a Defender. Even though the twin tube Konis aren't as critical in this regard as the Bilsteins, they have still taken a hammering on my vehicle. I've wrapped the lower half of each shocker with 4mm rubber mat to lessen the damage.

Paul https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[barney]

having a rather odd version of the defender that's been raised 2" on series 2000 suspension, then rear springs replaced with stiffer ones that lifted it another 40mm and also running larger tyres 255/85/R16, my shock requirements were anything but off-the-shelf standard.
early last year, the lroc ran a technical day at Ultimate Suspension at minto. i'd had 2 vehicles with ultimate systems on them in the past and both had fantastic handling and off road capabilities.
i was being given the runaround by all the local suspension places where the staff were very good at looking up a spring/shock combo in a guide book but next to useless when it came to anything out of the ordinary.
i ended up going to Ultimate, they measured the spring travel on my vehicle, checked the spring rate and custom built some monotube rear shocks for me, set up for a 500kg load in the tray. i was there on monday of this week, they made them up and posted them to me, i put them on thursday arvo after work....and they are bloody awesome.
they were expensive compared to off the shelf items though, these cost me $245 each.
but you can compare it to buying those pre-set reading glasses at the servo, they might be close to what you need, and allow you to read, but are not exactly set to your eyes and with the right ones, you could see a whole lot better.
i could go on, but the rest is best left for campfire chat and not in writing

they reckon that all shocks are only good for 60,000 to 80,000 km. they lose their ability to perform at their designed parameters. at this age they should be either rebuilt or replaced.

[wozzlegummich]

We "did" the old gunbarrell highway a few years ago in my 90 disco V8 with 320 litres of fuel on board, water, fridge and enough supplies for two weeks.

I was the only vehicle out of five with "Billys" fitted as everyone esle had gone with local brands.

When we came to the really badly corrugated stuff I was the only one who could keep going after an hour. All the others would have to stop to let there shockers cool.

The "Billys" were so hot that when I spat on one of them they would sizzle like a hot barbie - BUT THEY STILL WORKED!

I transferred them to my next rover (a Rangie) and they were still perfect when I sold that.

I know what I'll be putting on my Disco!!

Cheers,

Robbie


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/01/17.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/01/18.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/01/19.jpg

[one_iota]

I am pleased with my Bilsteins.

However, the strength of the bottom rear washer is dubious. It is thinner than the oem washer. In my case they distorted the extent that on one side the rubber split and fell out and the other side was cracked.

http://www.aulro.com/albums/album26/IMG_0427.sized.jpg

And I was wondering why the disco was wollowing and clunking. :roll:

I replaced the rubbers and washers with the ones I had on the old shocks and even now the washer is beginning to distort as I look at this photo:

http://www.aulro.com/albums/album26/IMG_0432.sized.jpg

The only theory I have for this is that the washer takes a lot of strain on maximum articulation of the rear axle.

[barney]

another type i've had thatr i was really impressed with were Decarbon.
i had them on a leaf sprung ute years ago and it was the most controlable 4wd off road i've ever driven

[tombraider]

Interestingly no-ones mentioned Remote canister shocks.

I run LTRs and have never had one fade, ever.
Run cooler than Billies, and not much more $$$ if you deal right.

I've just gone dual LTRs, but more because I can than I need to... And I just like to fiddle around with rates etc....

But seriously LTR for RR, Classic, Defender work awesome. For a D2 you need to go Billies.

Cheers
Mike

[Slunnie]

It may be a valving difference for the LTR to run cooler, though the remote cannister helps. I really like the design of the LTR's though.

They are monoshock technology with gasses seperated by a piston in the remote chamber, which also frees them up to allow more travel for a given extension. The other good thing, is they are a twin shell, though the only role of the outer shell seems to be a protective one.

[dungarover]

Originally posted by tombraider
Interestingly no-ones mentioned Remote canister shocks.

I run LTRs and have never had one fade, ever.
Run cooler than Billies, and not much more $$$ if you deal right.

I've just gone dual LTRs, but more because I can than I need to... And I just like to fiddle around with rates etc....

But seriously LTR for RR, Classic, Defender work awesome. For a D2 you need to go Billies.

Cheers
Mike

Never considerd then to be honest.

I remember when ARB first released them and always liked the design but the price was off-putting so I never realy loked into them.

From experience, you get what you pay for when it comes to shocks, but there's always an exception like anything.

Trav

[jake]

G'day,

Great Forum. I have been thinking about putting LTR shocks on my defender but am concerned for stone damage on the rear. as the shocks sit forward of the axle are their guards available to protect them.

Jake

[Tusker]

My 2.2c worth..

I'd be wary of any stone protectors. You might find the Billies run hotter, inducing some fade/overheating issues.

I don't thing Billies need them either. Had them on my old Disco, about 200,000 kms, never a problem. Including the Flinders, the Centre, Simpson Desert etc etc.

So far 60,000 on the new Defender. That includes a 3,600 boys weekend through Cameron Corner, Flinders etc. 3 Defenders, all Bilstein equipped, speed on dirt and gravel that err, shouldn't be mentioned. Without a problem, or a stone guard.

You could be unlucky, but that applies to any shock.

Regards
Max P

[HSVRangie]

never ran stone protectors on my Bils 99% wont damage them at all.

they will get sand blasted mainly.

go with them still the best shock going IMO.

Michael.

[Spadge07]

Seems the majority of people are into the Bilsteins. I have to say I prefer their capabilities to the Konis, however, on a trip up the Oodnadatta track a while back we had 2 (both rears) near new Bilsteins decide to self destruct. Dunno the reason. Luckily we had another set of rears (also Bilstein) fitted to the camper trailer aswell and fitted those to the car both times until we could be replacements. Can't say I've had the same problem with the Konis I currently have fitted, though I haven't been up that way with them. When it comes for a new set, I think I'll go back to Bilsteins to see what the Germans have been up to.

[HSVRangie]

in all honesty I dont think you can go wrong with either Bils or Koni's.

Michael.

[cameron]

Hey guys,
What rear suspension setup would those in the know recommend for a defender 130 that often carries a fair amount and occassionally tows a pretty heavy campertrailer?

Currently got the dual springs standard on a 130 plus billsteins but they have done over 150k now and so I want to look into it.

Great, interesting thread by the way!

Cheers,
Cameron

[jasper110]

thanks guys for all the comments so far. a set of bilsteins are now making their way to me through the post.

cheers.

[wozzlegummich]

Originally posted by tombraider


I've just gone dual LTRs, but more because I can than I need to... And I just like to fiddle around with rates etc....


How do you go for the nitrogen when adjusting them?

That's what stopped me from getting them.


Robbie A.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:blue">with the bilsteins...is there only the one type/valving for the landys.....?


what exactly does every one have....as in part numbers.....
im organising my shopping list and need to know exactly what to ask for....</span>

[one_iota]

Tony,

Graeme Cooper's:

http://www.lrexpert.com.au/custom-parts.ph...age=defender#55 (http://www.lrexpert.com.au/custom-parts.php?page=defender#55)

[MT]

Had Bilsteins and Polyair Bags fitted last week (Sydney Suspensions , Princes Hwy), what a difference (OEM shocks previously). Love the feel, handling has improved noticeably. I have the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the ACE loves them, as I am back to that 'cornering on rails feel' we had when new.

Cheers

Mark

[DEFENDERZOOK]

is that heasmans......?
on the corner of railway road and princes highway....st peters..?

[rick130]

Interestingly no-ones mentioned Remote canister shocks.

I run LTRs and have never had one fade, ever.
<snip>
Cheers
Mike

I did ! https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

Stick a remote can with a floating piston on a twin tube and it will equal a mono-tube in this area (OME LTR anyone https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ [/quote]

[Bubbles]

Does anybody have any experience with the XGS shocks that TJM advertised recently? The ads seemed to disappear suddenly. They seemed to have the goods to be a decent unit.

Great forum. I've only just gotten a fast connection out here, enjoy hearing other Rover experiences.

[tombraider]

Originally posted by wozzlegummich+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wozzlegummich)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteBegin-tombraider


I've just gone dual LTRs, but more because I can than I need to... And I just like to fiddle around with rates etc....


How do you go for the nitrogen when adjusting them?

That's what stopped me from getting them.


Robbie A.[/b][/quote]

I had 3 goes at gas pressures but just run them at 100 psi constant now.

Almost every "Bob Jane" has Nitrogen nowadays :wink:

But personally, set them up and forget them....

Now Rick130 for my question, how old were the LTRs that faded?
Front or rear? What pressures were you running? And where were you and how long had u been driving and how much load/speed etc....

OME released a new valving for the rears some time ago (I know, I was the development tester https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ ) Much better than the older version.

Cheers
Mike

[tombraider]

Originally posted by Bubbles
Does anybody have any experience with the XGS shocks that TJM advertised recently? The ads seemed to disappear suddenly. They seemed to have the goods to be a decent unit.

Great forum. I've only just gotten a fast connection out here, enjoy hearing other Rover experiences.

They are a Copak shock from Brazil, not bad for the $$$, but cheaper from Terrain Tamer and identical shock :wink:

Cheers
Mike

[MT]

Originally posted by DEFENDERZOOK
is that heasmans......?
on the corner of railway road and princes highway....st peters..?

I think it is the same place - that is certainly the address (same side of the road as Graeme Cooper's and further South).

They list themselves in the yellow pages as Sydney Suspensions.

Mark

[rick130]

Hi Tombraider,

Umm, I haven't faded any LTR's, never run them. (although I'm quite prepared to test some out https://www.aulro.com/afvb/ )
I actually said that using a remote can/floating piston on a twin tube shock was how they would match a mono-tube in (fade free) performance. :wink:

[rick130]

For those that asked about increasing/changing the nitrogen pressure in LTR's, all it does is increase their fade resistance slightly, and increases the ride height marginally ('lifting' force is a function of the cross sectional area of the piston rod x the gas pressure. eg. 5/8 piston rod multiplied by 80psi = 24.5lb, by 100 psi = 30lb) this force isn't equivalent to or add to your spring rate, more like a light pre-load, known as a 'nose force' on the shock. This increase in 'nose force' used to be a concern to race car engineers using nil droop suspensions (spring and damper can't extend) It decreased the dampers sensitivity as it was an extra force to overcome to get the damper moving. In fact, it can be argued, and shown in a simple calculation that this doesn't happen with suspension droop, that the ride height increases slightly, and that the increase in nose force is cancelled out.

Changing the nitrogen pressure has no effect at all on the shocks valving.