Advice on R380 output shaft collar/seal

[TeamFA]

G'day all!


Just wanted to sound out people's opinion on whether or not the coller on my R380 output shaft is pressed on far enough.... (!)


A bit of background:


2002 TD5 Defender 110, with a Suffix L R380 gearbox and L230T transfer case. Gearbox prefix is 74A, so a type A gearbox (by the overhaul manual).


I rebuilt the R380 a couple of years back (I think I posted on here), it all went together fine, and the gearbox itself has been running perfectly since. After that job, I didn't have any oil leaks from the gearbox/transfer case.


Then, last year, I had a noise in the transfer case. I took it off and pulled it apart, to find the shims under the planetary gears in the centre diff had disappeared. Nothing else seemed off in the transfer case, so reassembled and put it back on. Again, it has been working perfectly since then. However, I've had a slow oil leak since then, from the mating surface between the gearbox and transfer case.


So obviously either the output shaft seal or the transfer case mainshaft oil seal wasn't sealing. My guess is that after the gearbox repair, I sealed the mating surface between the gearbox/transfer case so completely (I filled the drain channel and hole) with silicone, that it didn't allow any oil to leak outside of the space between them.


Then, after the transfer case removal and replacement, I didn't seal that up as much, allowing some oil to come out.


So last weekend I decided to remove the transfer case, have a look at the seals, and have a go at trying to fix the leak.


Visual inspection of the transfer case mainshaft seal showed it to be looking perfect, but when I looked at the gearbox side of things I started to get a bit puzzled.


To me, it didn't look as if the output shaft collar was actually sitting in the correct place in the seal to actually be sealing. It looked as if it was too far out of the gearbox. Or - the thought just occurred to me - that the oil seal itself is too far in to the gearbox (if such a thing is possible) - it looks like it's sitting a fair bit below the chamfered lip.


I've since put the transfer case back on (as I needed to drive it), and had a go at sealing up the mating surfaces - but that didn't seem to work, as it's now leaking more than ever.


I've searched the forum and internet to try and find pictures of the collar on the shaft in place in the gearbox, but nothing I've found looks exactly like mine.


I've attached the pictures I took - any advice on whether or not everything looks okay here?


I've currently got a tray under the drips, and after a few have collected there, I'm going to compare to the transfer case and gearbox oil, to try and pin down which source it's coming from.


Thanks!

[TeamFA]

Okay, I think I've pretty much answered my own question - finally found a photo I took back in 2012 (further back than I thought!) of the gearbox when first removed - it definitely looks like the collar was pressed further in previously. Looks like the oil seal is still in the same place.

Oil "watermarks" on the transfer-case end before and after also show the collar is not in the same place.

Next two questions are - how did I not get that thing pressed all the way in, and how do I rectify...?

[TeamFA]

From the overhaul manual, it looks like the factory tool threads in to the end of the output shaft? I used a press to put my collar on, but perhaps can make up a tool with a bolt of the correct thread to try and press the collar on further in situ, without having to remove the box...

[DazzaTD5]

Just tap it on until it seats, I have a machined collar (glorified piece of pipe that is the right diameter) dont over think it.
Just as a added thing though, I often replace that collar when doing box work, its cheap to buy and will be a nice new face for the seals.

So yes by the look of it and from memory the collar's seal face for the gearbox end, the edge of that seal face i think normally sits very close to the actual seal lip.

oh and re transfer case, the copper shims yes do wear out on the side gears, re centre diff, nothing to be worried about, replacing the two selective thrusts on each end of the centre diff also would have helped. I assume new bearings went through trans? the oil leak is prolly the shaft for the intermediate gear set, so the leak is on the transfer case between the gearbox and centre diff housing. If the oil leak is ****ing out from the gearbox output seal it drains down a channel at the back of the gearbox and out a hole.\

AND if it is coming from the gearbox as in the rear output seal, when you replaced the seal did you remove the collar first, replace seal then fitted collar back? if you replaced seal after fitting the collar it will leak

Regards
Daz

[TeamFA]

Just tap it on until it seats, I have a machined collar (glorified piece of pipe that is the right diameter) dont over think it.
Just as a added thing though, I often replace that collar when doing box work, its cheap to buy and will be a nice new face for the seals.
I'm hoping so! I seem to recall that it was difficult even with the press when I was reinstalling it, but hopefully it won't be too bad. I also considered buying a new collar... and if this doesn't work this time, I'll be doing that and getting the seal for the gearbox and transfer case, and doing them all.


So yes by the look of it and from memory the collar's seal face for the gearbox end, the edge of that seal face i think normally sits very close to the actual seal lip.
Yes, it looked odd as soon as I saw it... don't know how I didn't pick it up previously.


oh and re transfer case, the copper shims yes do wear out on the side gears, re centre diff, nothing to be worried about, replacing the two selective thrusts on each end of the centre diff also would have helped. I assume new bearings went through trans?
I didn't do anything else to the transfer case at the time, being a bit strapped for cash and needing to have it back on the road for a trip... but everything seemed okay at the time. I'm sure I'll regret it at some stage...!


the oil leak is prolly the shaft for the intermediate gear set, so the leak is on the transfer case between the gearbox and centre diff housing. If the oil leak is ****ing out from the gearbox output seal it drains down a channel at the back of the gearbox and out a hole.\
The leak is definitely from either the output shaft gearbox side or the transfer case input seal... the oil is coming out from the bottom of the mating surfaces there (I filled that channel and hole with silicone, but obviously didn't do enough on the rest of the mating surface)


AND if it is coming from the gearbox as in the rear output seal, when you replaced the seal did you remove the collar first, replace seal then fitted collar back? if you replaced seal after fitting the collar it will leak
I definitely did it that way, as per the overhaul manual - the oil seal in the extension housing, then fit the extension housing, then drive the collar on afterwards... have read that doing the seal after the collar can damage the seal.

Thanks heaps for your reply and advice, Daz.

Tomorrow is scheduled to remove the transfer case and see if that collar is going to move - I'll post an update tomorrow night.

Cheers!
Michael.

[TeamFA]

Transfer case off today (much easier and quicker after you've already just done it...!).

Length of pipe with large hammer applied, and the coller slipped up about another 3-4 millimetres. No amount of further coercion produced any more movement. Also put the box into gear, and used a bolt on a plate on the end of said pipe, and a fair amount of force, with no further movement. My guess is that it's in as far as it can go.

Cleaned up the mating surfaces again, and will put the case back on during the week, and see how I go this time!

I also remembered that I did put new bearing through the transfer case... going through the manual again reminded me of what I'd done...

[discorevy]

You might have already done it , but check you don't have excessive end float before putting the tc back, the resulting chatter can contribute to oil leak

[TeamFA]

You might have already done it , but check you don't have excessive end float before putting the tc back, the resulting chatter can contribute to oil leak

Good idea - though I did measure when I did the rebuild and it was good, it wouldn't hurt to check it again...

[vbrab]

Doing a change over of an R380 box and transfer case into a D1, and looking to change over fluid seals for the box and the transfer case.
Haven't separated them as yet to remove and get seals ID.
Just wondering if anybody can advise the seal part numbers (usually printed on the seal) so I can check with local bearing/seals place for possible replacements.
(nearest LR option is 1650k's away, so have to try local first as might be quicker.)

[TeamFA]

Doing a change over of an R380 box and transfer case into a D1, and looking to change over fluid seals for the box and the transfer case.
Haven't separated them as yet to remove and get seals ID.
Just wondering if anybody can advise the seal part numbers (usually printed on the seal) so I can check with local bearing/seals place for possible replacements.
(nearest LR option is 1650k's away, so have to try local first as might be quicker.)

There's a few resources you can use.

This one works pretty well: Allbrit.de - Ersatzteile fur LAND ROVER & MG ROVER (http://www.allbrit.de/UNI.cfm?PAGE=751790&SPRACHE=EN)

This one gives you a different way of finding the numbers: Gaskets and Seals Components, Spares and Accessories for Land Rover Defender (NOT NAS) Td5 Transmission - Manual - 2005 (http://www.land-rover-parts-shop.com/en/ui/groups.php'model=Defender%20(NOT%20NAS)&engine=Td5&cattext=Transmission%20-%20Manual&subcattext=Gaskets%20and%20Seals&year=2005)

[discorevy]

Gbox output ftc500010
Transfer input Icv100000
You'll want to do the O ring on the transfer case frc8292 or right size in viton

[Roverlord off road spares]

Doing a change over of an R380 box and transfer case into a D1, and looking to change over fluid seals for the box and the transfer case.
Haven't separated them as yet to remove and get seals ID.
Just wondering if anybody can advise the seal part numbers (usually printed on the seal) so I can check with local bearing/seals place for possible replacements.
(nearest LR option is 1650k's away, so have to try local first as might be quicker.)
Have you thought of supporting any of the vendors on this forum.
By the time you have pulled your box part and driven to a bearing place trying to source the parts, all the correct parts could have been posted to you express for about $11 Pilbara about 2 days from eastern states, just a thought?

[Roverlord off road spares]

Gbox output ftc500010
Transfer input Icv100000
You'll want to do the O ring on the transfer case frc8292 or right size in viton
There's a a lot more seals than those , if your going to change all fluid seals

[vbrab]

Thanks for that info, can only try the local option first, before having to go down the distance order option.


Gbox output ftc500010
Transfer input Icv100000
You'll want to do the O ring on the transfer case frc8292 or right size in viton

[bblaze]

Thanks for that info, can only try the local option first, before having to go down the distance order option.

I buy off Rover lord off road spare, could not get a better supplyer, next day into Tassie, nearly that quick sometimes I think he is a mind reader. Local aussie supplier
cheers
blaze

[vbrab]

Was asking after sizes or specifications for gearbox output seal and transfer input seal because being remote there was a possibility local seal guy could match.
Managed to get sizes for transfer case output seal as being 62mm (outer size), 42mm (inner size) and 8mm thick.
However, for the gearbox output seal, as mine was a bit damaged (from extraction), I have the outer size as 54mm and 8mm thick, but inner size may be 42mm OR 43mm or 44mm, but because of damage not able to get the correct size.
The diameter of the output shaft would probably give the correct inner size. \
Can anybody confirm if it is 42MM (same at for tranfer seal)?

[discorevy]

Yep , same size inner , you will need to replace the seal collar as the new seal will get damaged trying to fit over the collar, unless you have a new one there is a vendor on here that should be able to supply apparently[bigwhistle]. You'll need access to a hydraulic gear puller though

[vbrab]

Managed to get 1 seal local, and the rest are on their way from a AULRO vendor, but even with express post (which was $11) it will be a next week arrival. 5+ days for express post to here sometimes.
Anyway, as it is vehicle of SWMBO....it is not urgent. (She doesn't read AULRO posts so I am safe.)


Have you thought of supporting any of the vendors on this forum.
By the time you have pulled your box part and driven to a bearing place trying to source the parts, all the correct parts could have been posted to you express for about $11 Pilbara about 2 days from eastern states, just a thought?