Detroit rear locker

[Rob2]

G'day.

I already have the Maxi 24 spline axles and end plates, now I wonder does anyone locally stock a Detroit locker to fit my 1991 3.5 v8 discovery.
I want to replace the original 10 spline thingies in the back axle.

Not interested in manual jobbies but would prefer an auto locker.

Ta.

Robert.

[Saitch]

There's these as well. A mate has an Eatons in his Mahindra rear end & I have seen it working a few times when following him & it appears to work well.
Not recommending, just advising!
Steve

ELocker | Land Rover | Discovery & Defender | HARROP | Engineering, Superchargers, Brakes, Driveline, Engine, 4WD, Cooling (https://www.harrop.com.au/shop/elocker-land-rover-discovery-defender)

[123rover50]

Get an Ashcroft ATB.
I just bought one[bigsmile1]

https://www.google.com.au/url'sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjrgLWeiIPVAhUDVZQKHTp2ARkQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fw.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk%2Flimited-slip-differentials%2Fashcroft-atb.html&usg=AFQjCNG97yEoap3-cSbuPr_OXxPB_8FNgQ

K

[101RRS]

That is a limited slip diff not a locker.

[123rover50]

Its better than a locker[thumbsupbig]

[Sitec]

That Ashcroft ATB is basically the same as a TruTrac. Its not a limited Slip.. Its a 'Torque biasing' diff.. It uses a series of screw type gears (3 on the left axle shaft and 3 on the right). It works using friction between the screw gears and the casing, and the gearing between side to side.. A normal open diff allows power to go straight out through the easiest route. These require a lot of power to spin a free wheel, so always put a percentage of power to the wheel that's still on the ground... so working like a limited slip but with a more positive drive to the loaded wheel.. I found the best setup to be a Detroit in the rear axle and a TruTrac in the front axle. There used to be a guy on here from the states who could supply them... He trades as 'Lucky8OffRoad'. From memory they were just over $550 each and he'd ship separately to avoid the customs cost... Mine arrived from the US within a week, and once fitted they made the 130 surprisingly good off road. Cheers.

[Naks]

chaps, I fitted an ATB in the rear of my Puma in October 2017, and recently started noticing a groaning noise that's becoming quite bad.


My indie and I eventually traced it to the rear diff: at specific rpm/speed, there is a loud, low-frequency groaning noise + vibration emanating from the rear of the car. It almost feels as if the seats have built-in massage function, especially when I hit 80-100kmh.


Has anyone else experienced this after fitting an Ashcroft, and if so, how did you fix this?


thanks

[AK83]

.... at specific rpm/speed, there is a loud, low-frequency groaning noise + vibration emanating from the rear of the car. It almost feels as if the seats have built-in massage function, especially when I hit 80-100kmh.


Has anyone else experienced this after fitting an Ashcroft, and if so, how did you fix this?


thanks

For me it's the other way around.
I'm getting ATBs fitted to my two spare diffs, which I'll fit once done and time allows, but doing this due to my rear pinion bearing making loud low frequency groaning noises.
Sounds like worn mud tyres, except that my tyres are more road biased.
This n new noise doesn't change with road surface like the tyres do, so I've discounted tyre noise due to that.
And the noise is predominantly heard at about 80k/h which seems to be a sweet spot for how my D1 runs(smooth and quietish .. well, ss smooth and quiet as a D1 tdi can be!)

Only thing I don't get is any vibration(at all).

When you got the ATB fitted, did you get them to renew all bearings?

[dero]

I got mine from the US , and I suspect most local suppliers would do the same . Price both , here & there , and get one , they are great .

[Naks]

Thanks AK, yes, new bearings were fitted during the installation of the ATB.

[Bigbjorn]

I have had Detroit Lockers in two very high horsepower street cars and three way in a White Road Boss in 1983, Rockwell SSHD diffs. All worked perfectly and reliably. Only problem was with the Road Boss in deep mud. With all 8 tyres turning under full torque from a tickled up Detroit 8V92TA, tractive effort sometimes overcame steering ability and the vehicle tended to want to go straight ahead. They did clank and rattle a bit when turning sharply a low speed. I believe current models have been quietened down a good bit.

I believe the perfect combination for a Land Rover is a Detroit in the rear and a Tor-Sen (Trutrac) in the front.

[tact]

chaps, I fitted an ATB in the rear of my Puma in October 2017, and recently started noticing a groaning noise that's becoming quite bad.


My indie and I eventually traced it to the rear diff: at specific rpm/speed, there is a loud, low-frequency groaning noise + vibration emanating from the rear of the car. It almost feels as if the seats have built-in massage function, especially when I hit 80-100kmh.


Has anyone else experienced this after fitting an Ashcroft, and if so, how did you fix this?


thanks

Two things to suggest...
Number 1:
- This is unlikely to be anything to do with the ATB internals, as the helical gear sets do not rotate on their own axis at high speeds. With the vehicle moving in a straight line they would barely rotate at all inside their pockets. (Both the pockets and the helical gears, the whole diff centre, would be rotating on the same axis as the crownwheel, but no real movement of the helical gears relative to their pockets)

Number 2:
- I bought two Ashcroft ATB's for front/rear of my 2013 TDCi (Puma) 110 a couple of years ago. Bought two recon diffs from Ashcroft at the same time, and had Ashcrofts assemble with the new ATBs with all new bearings etc for me as I didn't trust anyone locally (Malaysia) to do the job.

- from new I had some noises similar to what you mentioned, getting worse after several hundred km

- on checking (pulled the diff) found that there was a fair bit of runout measured at the crown wheel

- seems on some diffs there is a possibility of interference between the crownwheel and ATB. Had to chamfer off a bit...

- solved the issues. Ashcrofts came to the party covering my costs to rectify (since they had assembled the diff/ATB originally)

[Naks]

Thanks Neil, the crownwheel runout seems to be the culprit

edit:

Just spoke to my indie and he says all the adjustments were done during the fitment... so he's going to take it out and inspect it.

[tact]

Thanks Neil, the crownwheel runout seems to be the culprit

edit:

Just spoke to my indie and he says all the adjustments were done during the fitment... so he's going to take it out and inspect it.

Not sure what adjustment is being referenced. No amount of setting up of the crown wheel to pinion engagement will sort the issue I had.

The issue I had was around the crown wheel not sitting completely flat against where it mates, bolts up, to the diff centre/ATB. Kinda put a measurable warp in it (crown wheel), seen via dial gauge.

[Ancient Mariner]

Thanks Neil, the crownwheel runout seems to be the culprit

edit:

Just spoke to my indie and he says all the adjustments were done during the fitment... so he's going to take it out and inspect it.
Any runout should should be detected when setting backlash .You need a better mec

AM

[ian4002000]

I Had to buy a spacer ring for the rear diff centre when I fitted ATB's into my 2012 130.

Without the spacer I don't think it would have fitted.

Whoever assembled the diff should have been checking that everything was bolted tight and that no runout was occurring.

Ian
Bittern

[Vern]

I Had to buy a spacer ring for the rear diff centre when I fitted ATB's into my 2012 130.

Without the spacer I don't think it would have fitted.

Whoever assembled the diff should have been checking that everything was bolted tight and that no runout was occurring.

Ian
BitternThat would be because yours runs a p38 rear diff. Normally not needed

[DiscoMick]

I had a Detroit in the rear of our D1 and it was excellent. Don't put one in the front as it affects steering. You need a Tru Trac in the front.

[Ancient Mariner]

Tru Trac TBD are available as either front or rear.I have been running a rear in the front for nearly 4 years and it has been perfect with no adverse effects.It is a simple job to reconfigure the gears but can't imagine it being any better so won't bother

AM

[DiscoClax]

Trutrac front, detroit locker rear. Add the factory CDL and decent tyres and there's not much that'll stop it. Makes for very relaxing offroading. And pretty good road manners, too. I just need to be a bit judicuous with the loud pedal when cornering since the new motor and many more torques.:P

[dero]

What Clax said , works for me and has done so trouble free for a long time .

[Vern]

Same as above

[Bearman]

Ditto

[biggin]

I concur.

[mattg]

So what would you do first? Front or back? Mainly sand driving

[dero]

Put the locker in the rear first , it will give more advantage than the front .
The front is the iceing on the cake .

[DiscoMick]

I put it in the back because I figured it would assist in a wider range of situations than in the front, which would mainly be for steep climbing.
Also, a Detroit locker can affect the steering if in the front. You need a Tru Trac version for the front.

[101RRS]

Auto unlockers do not go in the front of constant FWD vehicles. You cannot steer because of the locked diff. Detroits etc in the rear only and a manual lockable diff or LSD type in the front.

Garry

[DiscoMick]

True, but Tru Tracs can go in the front.

[mattg]

I have test driven a disco with a true track in the front and steering was great

[biggin]

Better than without I reckon. Returns to centre much better.

[101RRS]

True, but Tru Tracs can go in the front.

Yes because they are not a diff lock but a type of LSD.

[donh54]

I have test driven a disco with a true track in the front and steering was great

I've been driving my D1 with a true track in front for years now - no problems whatsoever. It's duties run from daily driver to tourer to (mostly Japanese) recovery vehicle. With the Detroit in the back, it's damn near unstoppable.

[CraigE]

Yes because they are not a diff lock but a type of LSD.
Arent they torque bias diff as opposed to limited slip? My understanding is they work quite differently more like the ATBs.
I have just fitted an ATB to the front of mine and apart from a bit of a return to centre tendency no issues with steering.

[101RRS]

For sure but at the end of the day when traction gets lost it is only one wheel drive on the axle - might be a different wheel but still one wheel drive and is not locked. That is my point - it is still essentially an open diff that limits slip on on one of the wheels not both. It is still a LSD type diff - just with a different method of operation.

[tact]

Arent they torque bias diff as opposed to limited slip? My understanding is they work quite differently more like the ATBs.
I have just fitted an ATB to the front of mine and apart from a bit of a return to centre tendency no issues with steering.

Yep Garrycol was commenting on truetracs being "like an LSD, so they can go in the front"... And that is loosely true. They are actually torque biassing, like the Ashcroft ATB units. (Not exactly LSD's)

As opposed to detroit lockers, which are best defined as "unlockers" - which do not allow "differentiation" in the usual way differentiation is understood.

The normal understanding of "differentiation" means both wheels (half shafts) either side of a diff are actually constantly driven proportionally. e.g. in a straight line both half shafts are driven at the same speed... when cornering both half shafts are driven constantly but of course the half shaft attached to the outer wheel, in a turn, is revolving faster - but nevertheless both wheels/halfshafts are being driven all the time by the driveline.

With a detroit locker, an unlocker, both half shafts MAY be driven at the same speed in a straight line. When turning a corner, only the inner wheel is driven, the outer wheel is not driven (by engine/driveline), it is allowed to revolve faster than the inner wheel by an unlocking/ratcheting style mechanism - in essence the outer wheel is freewheeling, driven by the road surface to rotate at the speed it needs to.

Where I wrote "...both half shafts MAY be driven at the same speed in a straight line." - I mean that even when driving along in a straight line there may at times be only ONE half shaft/wheel actually driving the vehicle along the road. Arguably they may be small instants in time.... times where one half shaft started to overrun (perhaps a previous curve moment) but didnt click one full ratchet period forward. Thus that arguably freewheeling wheel/halfshaft may be matching the rotational speed of the driven halfshaft whilst not actually being driven - the ratchet mechanism partially disengaged.

This is where the occasionally-complained-about "bang! thud" happens when tramping on the throttle hard with a detroit fitted... the one driven wheel gets a sudden push forward by the driveline, then at the very point where it might have started to spin - the ratcheting mechanism catches up to the wheel that had been idling along previously. It then locks in and drive is now definitely on both half shafts.... as it is in any other situation where wheelspin may have started. It now behaves like a full locker - until traction is regained, wheelspin stops and one or the other halfshafts is driven by roadwheels a little faster. (i.e. curves or cornering).

Of course a Torsen or ATB (incl truetracs) never ever fully locks. Never drives just the inner wheel in a curve. Vastly different to the "unlocker" or detroit.

An ATB always drives both half shafts proportionally like an open diff in the "normal" understanding of differentiation.... and just like an open diff is useless whenever either side of the diff can freewheel (like a wheel in air situation)

[tact]

For sure but at the end of the day when traction gets lost it is only one wheel drive on the axle - might be a different wheel but still one wheel drive and is not locked. That is my point - it is still essentially an open diff that limits slip on on one of the wheels not both. It is still a LSD type diff - just with a different method of operation.

You are talking ATB? Not quite 100% correct... Yes an ATB, like an open diff, is utterly useless when either wheel on an axle gets airtime (or any other situation, like broken halfshaft - where freespinning on one side of the diff can happen). Of course things like TC or LFB can mitigate to a degree...

But ATBs still work fantastically where "traction gets lost" in any slippery/slidey situations that fall short of a total loss of traction on just one side....

Examples of what I mean are:
- dirt roads
- muddy trails
- ice (where wheels on both sides of the diff are on the ice, the baseline biassing of the diff will see both sides spin, not just one)
- water on the road

[101RRS]

Lets not get bogged down in minutia - with any of these diffs, if ultimately one wheel completely looses traction you dont have drive - up until that point not matter if it as a ATB, Torsen, LSD or some other version they provide various levels of traction to the wheels where a normal diff may not. They all have the function of limiting slip but using different means.

Garry

[Ancient Mariner]

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I

[trout1105]

The Wavetrac diffs Do look interesting.
Wavetrac® Differentials - Technical Information - © Autotech Corp. All rights reserved. (http://www.wavetrac.net/different/)

[Naks]

Just got an update from the workshop: they fitted a new crownwheel + pinion and the problem is gone, plus one of the bearings was not sitting properly (not too sure about the exact terms).


the original diff was replaced by LR after about a year of ownership, so not sure if that was not done properly, and after 9 years it finally went over when the ATB was installed?


my indie says now that the droning noise from the diff is gone, there's a 'squeaky' noise that's appeared, and he thinks there's a bearing in the gearbox that needs inspecting [bighmmm]

[tact]

[...]
the original diff was replaced by LR after about a year of ownership, so not sure if that was not done properly, and after 9 years it finally went over when the ATB was installed?

Well.....as mentioned in past posts - my own experience with the droning that started after installing the ATB, was to do with the crownwheel not seating properly flat when bolted up to the ATB (diff centre) casing.

Ashcroft built up a recon diff and fitted their ATB to it for me and shipped over to Kuala Lumpur. I had a local indie essentially swap out the old diffs (front and rear) for the new (with ATB). Which meant I had the two original open diffs as spares. When the droning became very apparent and was getting worst with every passing week, I got the diff pulled and checked and found the runout as measured at the crownwheel.

When I contacted Ashcroft with this info they advised that it is not uncommon, that there may be some casting irregularity causing the crownwheel to not sit flush as it should, and they apologised for not picking that up before shipping the goods (and kindly compensated me for my trouble somewhat).

So I would strongly suggest that if your droning only started after fitting the ATB, perhaps something similar happened... in the 9yrs after LR replaced the diff for you did it drone like that?

[tact]

Lets not get bogged down in minutia - with any of these diffs, if ultimately one wheel completely looses traction you dont have drive - up until that point not matter if it as a ATB, Torsen, LSD or some other version they provide various levels of traction to the wheels where a normal diff may not. They all have the function of limiting slip but using different means.

Garry

Absolutely. Its not a case of one type of locker shaming all other types. Each has specific characteristics and use cases. ATBs are often not well understood and so I wrote at length hoping to be clear on what the differences are - so people can decide which type of locker, if any, suits their use case.

For my personal case - I do use my Defender pretty hard when I get to go offroad, but don't go silly or try competition level obstacles! I know that apart from bush weekends my vehicle is also my daily driver.

In my own personal use case I prefer to sacrifice the full locking potential of selectable lockers or non-selectable unlockers for the full time, onroad and offroad surefootedness that the ATB delivers. That means that:
- there will be very occasional moments where I might wish I had a full locker. I can live with that and for the level of track difficulty I tackle - mostly my superior driving skill [bigrolf] , line selection, and occasional LF Braking will get me through.

[Naks]

... in the 9yrs after LR replaced the diff for you did it drone like that?

no, it didn't.

[Robmacca]

Absolutely. Its not a case of one type of locker shaming all other types. Each has specific characteristics and use cases. ATBs are often not well understood and so I wrote at length hoping to be clear on what the differences are - so people can decide which type of locker, if any, suits their use case.

For my personal case - I do use my Defender pretty hard when I get to go offroad, but don't go silly or try competition level obstacles! I know that apart from bush weekends my vehicle is also my daily driver.

In my own personal use case I prefer to sacrifice the full locking potential of selectable lockers or non-selectable unlockers for the full time, onroad and offroad surefootedness that the ATB delivers. That means that:
- there will be very occasional moments where I might wish I had a full locker. I can live with that and for the level of track difficulty I tackle - mostly my superior driving skill [bigrolf] , line selection, and occasional LF Braking will get me through.

Interesting to know that u prefer the ATB's.... Does your Defender have Traction Control?

I've thought I would go down this path as well until I found out that they don't make ATB's for the Rear Salisbury Diffs of the older Defenders.... or at least I can't find any info that u can get one, so I was thinking about a Detroit for the Rear and a ATB for the Front.... when or if the budget allowed that is :)

[CraigE]

The Wavetrac diffs Do look interesting.
Wavetrac® Differentials - Technical Information - © Autotech Corp. All rights reserved. (http://www.wavetrac.net/different/)

None for Land Rover though or any real 4x4 for that matter.

[CraigE]

Interesting to know that u prefer the ATB's.... Does your Defender have Traction Control?

I've thought I would go down this path as well until I found out that they don't make ATB's for the Rear Salisbury Diffs of the older Defenders.... or at least I can't find any info that u can get one, so I was thinking about a Detroit for the Rear and a ATB for the Front.... when or if the budget allowed that is :)
I am going to go True Trac in the rear.

[trout1105]

None for Land Rover though or any real 4x4 for that matter.

IF they are any good it won't take that long for them to "Migrate" over to the 4X4 scene [thumbsupbig]

[tact]

Interesting to know that u prefer the ATB's.... Does your Defender have Traction Control?


No it doesn’t. So I use a bit of left foot braking occasionally to control a wheel in the air (for example). Clearly TC is far more effective than LFB to compensate the ATB (or open diff) Achilles heel. (A wheel in the air)

LFB is much more effective when an ATB is present - as compared to LFB with just an open diff. When an ATB is present you only need a little braking on the wheel in the air for the torque biassing to be effective. You do need to feed in some extra throttle to compensate for the braking.




I've thought I would go down this path as well until I found out that they don't make ATB's for the Rear Salisbury Diffs of the older Defenders.... or at least I can't find any info that u can get one, so I was thinking about a Detroit for the Rear and a ATB for the Front.... when or if the budget allowed that is :)

i have had a Detroit equivalent in one of my vehicles many years ago. It was an “Aussie locker”. Absolutely just as effective as a selectable locker when locked. Awesome kit and so simple.

Just nowadays (with ATBs available) my own preference is for the ATB. It does give full differential action (driving both wheels proportionally whether straight line or turning) all the time.

[Ancient Mariner]

None for Land Rover though or any real 4x4 for that matter.
Real 4x4 diff:tease:

[Naks]

Real 4x4 diff:tease:


what the hell is that?

[Vern]

what the hell is that?Ford 9"

[Naks]

gents, another update on this ongoing saga:


after the new crownwheel + pinion were fitted, the droning noise was still there, so the indie took out the ATB and fitted the original diff, and claimed the noise(s) were gone.


Picked up the landy just after lunch and noticed that between 0-60kmh, there is a high-pitched whine coming from the rear, similar to the jet whine you can hear when a plan is about to land. Above 60kmh, the whine disappear, and once I get up to 80kmh+, there is still a loud droning noise + vibration coming from the rear.


I'm now at a loss regarding this issue (and I'm pretty sure so is my indie), so any recommendations on how to tackle this issue will be much appreciated.


thanks!

[AK83]

can't think of anything other than wheel bearings.
Maybe a hub carrier, or spindle or whatever it's called, could be worn.

The other possibility is that maybe it's the transfer case or something but sounds like it's coming from the rear?
(dunno, just trying to help with various possibilities).

Funny thing about my D1 at the moment is that I've now done well over 2K klms since I first noticed my 'diff drone' noise, and I'm sure it's coming from the rear.
But, it seems to have quietened down a bit compared to how I remember it when I first noticed it a few months back.
There is a remote possibility that I've now gotten used to my noise, as part of a suite of noises that a vehicle will produce(and noting that it's a 300 Tdi D1 .. not the most refined vehicle in terms of NVH!!)

But I'm thinking that maybe the tyres had worn to a specific point and made the noise I noticed, but now have worn past that point and make less noise.
mine sounded like mud tyre droning, but my tyres are Yokohama G012's which have a more road oriented pattern, and are (about) just over 50% tread depth.
They are loud tyres(for what they are), and have been loud from the day I got the car where they were about 5K klms new. Road surface type/condition made a massive difference to how noisy they are.

[Naks]

Yeah, this is why the indie is also stumped - UJs have been checked, prop is perfectly balanced, wheel bearings have been checked, new bearings in the different, etc.

I'm actually considering buying 4 new tyres to rule that out...

[Ancient Mariner]

Remove the 2 axles the tailshaft lock the diff and go for a drive

AM

[tact]

gents, another update on this ongoing saga:


after the new crownwheel + pinion were fitted, the droning noise was still there, so the indie took out the ATB and fitted the original diff, and claimed the noise(s) were gone.


Picked up the landy just after lunch and noticed that between 0-60kmh, there is a high-pitched whine coming from the rear, similar to the jet whine you can hear when a plan is about to land. Above 60kmh, the whine disappear, and once I get up to 80kmh+, there is still a loud droning noise + vibration coming from the rear.


I'm now at a loss regarding this issue (and I'm pretty sure so is my indie), so any recommendations on how to tackle this issue will be much appreciated.


thanks!

So far it seems clear that a specific droning noise is present then ATB centre is fitted, goes away when ATB centre is not fitted. (ignoring other noises for now).

As shared before: Ashcrofts did acknowledge to me that, on occasion, some part of some crown wheel castings can interfere with the ATB housing causing the crown wheel to not sit completely flat.

I just looked up the email I have on this from 2015, here is an excerpt: "...different crown wheel manufacturers use different chamfers on the ID so it doesn't always foul the ATB. [Dave Ashcroft]"

Am thinking that maybe you have struck a couple of crown wheels that maybe do foul the ATB housing, when bolted up the crown wheel doesn't sit perfectly. You get that specific droning noise.

I had the same experience with a droning noise only present with ATB fitted. Was able to actually measure the runout at the crown wheel. Swapped to a different crown wheel (one from my original diff) and no further issue, no droning noises. (must have been lucky this crown wheel didn't foul the ATB housing).

[Naks]

Thanks Neil, but the original diff is back in the vehicle now.

I just drove a 120km round-trip to go see the Ashcroft supplier, and the groaning noise + vibration is still there and getting worse by the km! It is especially loud at 60kmh/2000rpm, disappears a bit until 80-100kmh, at which point it feels like the rear prop will fall out, and then it disappears almost completely once I get up to 120-130kmh.

The Ashcroft supplier seems to think this is a bearing issue as the noise + vibration only appears at specific frequencies.

[101RRS]

It sounds wheel bearing or UJ to me - then other bearing in the system.

[Naks]

It sounds wheel bearing or UJ to me - then other bearing in the system.

wheel bearings were replaced last year, and were checked again now, they are fine.

UJs are also fine, rear prop is 100% balanced.

maybe the pinion bearing?

[Ancient Mariner]

If you did what I suggested it takes the tailshaft and the diff out of the equation and you can also check the wheel bearings and pinion spin smoothly with no play If the noise is still there you need to consider the TC. Also a tail shaft can be perfectly balanced with good universals and still vibrate if not corectly phased.

AM

[dero]

This has gone a bit off topic , but if you are still thinking of a Detroit in the rear , I would highly recommend it .
They are virtually unbreakable and bang for your buck they are un beatable .
For run of the mill 4wding [ on and off road ] there is no downside that I have found .