how often is too often (servicing) - some questions

[cruiseh]

Its a question i often ponder.. our Disco4 (2016) has just ticked over 33000 klms, and thats mainly commuting, with a couple of trips to melbourne thrown in.

thus far, ive changed the oil and filter 3 times i use genuine filters, and Nulon oil. Every 10K was a mantra i developed whilst playing with 400+ hp subarus, so i figured it would also be beneficial given the disco has dual turbos and the oil does serve to cool the turbos. LR aust service intervals of every 26k disturb me.

TBH, ive not had them service the car yet, ive relied on a friend who is a factory BMW trained mechanic, and he now manages a Kmart store. ive done my own servicing for 30 years, and am alot more competent than most apprentices ive seen at dealerships, but that will not convince them if theres ever a warranty claim.

if i show them the logbook ive kept for servicing, do you think they would enter that into their service data? Its a little unfair to have a service history only available within their own systems, and id think thats probably contrary to all the consumer laws in this country, am i missing something? Is there a way to have the service history updated online?

Ive decided i should do the fuel filter by 40K, (the service schedule recommends every second service or ~52Klm) but wondering if fuel filters should be maybe every 20-30k>? whats the consensus? ive got the entire service schedule from my mates repco program, and adhere to that, but Given the proclivity of bad fuels around?
I only use costco (Mobil) mainly because of the price but also because their canberra store is brand new and the tanks are all poly from my understanding, and no water issues should exist.

thanks for reading.

[LRD414]

I don't have the answers but agree with your logic. I've been following the "Arduous" schedule (13,000 intervals) but still getting it dealer serviced and generally I've been under the 13k in reality. I'm doing that as a form of insurance in the case of a major failure in say year 4, 5 or 6. This is based on feedback that LRA have come to the party in some cases with financial assistance on major out-of-warranty failures (eg engine replacement) where the owner has demonstrated dealer servicing history. Not fair or right for all the reasons you state but lots of things in life are not fair. One thought, what about dealer servicing at the official 26k interval and intermediate services by someone else? Either way, I have no idea if it's feasible to get non-dealer servicing onto the official on-line record.

You will get a range of opinions with the fuel filter too. I'm replacing it every 20-30,000 almost by default because it's replaced after outback trips. Having said that, so far I've had zero fuel issues. My view is you'd be unlucky to strike water contamination and the most important thing is to carry a spare fuel filter when remote.

Cheers,
Scott

[DiscoJeffster]

Hmmm. You can't over-service it, but you can be literally pouring good money away [emoji6]
Oil quality and machining tolerances have improved dramatically over the last 20 years to allow vehicles to run extended intervals to no detriment. Finer machining leads to less wear, as well as better surface treatment techniques. Overall, the vehicles will be fine if the service schedule is followed.

[trout1105]

The cost of changing your oil and filter every 10,000ks or even 5,000ks if mainly off road and dusty conditions is nothing compared to an engine failure.
Also when doing this service you normally have a real good look around your truck and you can usually spot a problem and fix it before it becomes a major drama.
As far as I am concerned preventative maintenance is a Fantastic idea and if it is a case of throwing out some half decent oil every now and then So be it [thumbsupbig]

[DiscoMick]

I'd recommend doing dealer services as recommended for the history if there is a problem. You can then also do extra yourself and have the best of both. I think filters should be changed as frequently as the fluids they are filtering.

[Tins]

Does your mate's KMart have an Auto store? If you get him to stamp the book I can't see there being a problem, warranty wise. Pretty much any accredited workshop can do book services, AFAIK. A few manufacturers have found this out, over the years.

[letherm]

Either way, I have no idea if it's feasible to get non-dealer servicing onto the official on-line record.

Cheers,
Scott
Hi.

I do mainly short, as in 6km, trips and have followed the Arduous Schedule scenario too. The dealer has done three 6 month safety checks which include oil and filter change at my request plus the regular three annual services. Mine are time based as I don't do enough kilometres (just passed 24k after 42 months) The dealer said that they cannot enter the 6 month checks into the system so I can't see them putting in a non dealer service. Now that mine's past the mandatory 3 year warranty, I am getting a well regarded LR Indy to do the 6 month safety check and the dealer will do the final 2 annual services until the extended warranty expires. The LR Indy said he could not update the LR online records. He did give me a service book though so I've got a record plus all the service invoices from LR and him.

Martin

[DazzaTD5]

Anyone that knows me, as one of my customers / friend /relative etc, know I tend to recommend almost parrot like fashion....
10,000km service intervals on any common rail turbo diesel engine, which includes engine oil, oil filter, air filter AND fuel filter.

*Service intervals are typically set by bean counters that work for large corporations, less waste oil/products from a model meet better environmental standards / credits etc.
*Yes modern engine oils are so far advanced from oils of old, thats all very nice. back in the real world its common place to pull down engines that have had "recommended servicing" to find them full of sludge.
*Modern engine machining tolerances are finer..... Well from an engineering point, machining may have got better, BUT a modern engine especially a diesel have far larger clearances than engines of old to reduce internal friction which is by far the biggest hurdle a internal combustion engine must overcome to be more efficient.
*The off set of the above is seen in "modern engines" consume more oil than grandpa's old Land Cruiser (or his old diesel series land Rover).
*Most manufacturers overcome this with increased oil capacity so they dont run out of oil between servicing or rather so oil consumption isnt noticed by owners.
*Oil consumption, in the content of the above isnt a bad thing.
*Cut open a fuel filter after that scary 40K recommended service interval, a fuel filter or numerous fuel filters are well cheaper than just about all parts on the fuel system.
*Fuel quality, regardless of all the safe guards put in place, filters, handling, procedures etc etc is always going to be a variable.... refinery, tanker (rail or otherwise), storage depot, tanker, local fuel station, finally ending up in your tank.

*As it was pointed out to me by someone the other day, the more vehicles that have only manufacturers recommended servicing during that oh so important first 100,000km, (typically 3 oil changes) once out of warranty should lead to more repair work later on.

One can only lead an owner to clean engine oil and filters, ya cant make them drink it.....

Regards
Daz

[LRD414]

The dealer said that they cannot enter the 6 month checks into the system so I can't see them putting in a non dealer service.
Martin, that sounds odd. I was sure that my interim ones completed by dealer are in the system but can't seem to figure out how to look this up in Topix.

Scott

[letherm]

Martin, that sounds odd. I was sure that my interim ones completed by dealer are in the system but can't seem to figure out how to look this up in Topix.

Scott

Yes, I thought it was strange too, but that's what they told me. Still, as I said, I've kept all of the invoices so any potential future buyer can see the service history. Probably not an issue for me as I tend to keep cars a long time and trade in to save the hassle of a private buy even though it would give me a better return.

Martin

[ATH]

I'm a great believer in halving the service schedules of the manufacturer. They're only there to satisfy some box ticking bureaucrat that the vehicle is economic to run and conforms to the EU/UNs idea of saving the planet from climate change/global warming.
Good oil and new filters are cheap insurance as far as I'm concerned.
AlanH.

[cruiseh]

Does your mate's KMart have an Auto store? If you get him to stamp the book I can't see there being a problem, warranty wise. Pretty much any accredited workshop can do book services, AFAIK. A few manufacturers have found this out, over the years.

Yep, i bought a book from UK of all places, and he stamps every service. hes very familiar with my work to and happy to look over and stamp that too...

thanks for the tips so far. ill be doing the fuel filter soon:)

[TB]

Just out of curiosity I pulled the dipstick on my Discovery Sport this morning. It had its first logbook service at the LR dealer not two months ago and the oil is already black. Is that normal?

This a 2.2L 4 cylinder diesel like the Freelanders had. The recommended service interval is 26,000km or 12 months. We reached about 23,000 in the almost 18 months we had it before the first service – known issue with the DS is the failure for the computer to let us know when a service is due. It's now just past 26,000 and admittedly the past couple of months have had a decent dose of mountains and rough tracks in them.

[PerthDisco]

I've serviced mine every 12000km in the 7 years I've owned my MY08. Now at 170,000km I pull the dipstick before a long trip but have never detected any change in level ever. Is always at full ( and black)

[trout1105]

Just out of curiosity I pulled the dipstick on my Discovery Sport this morning. It had its first logbook service at the LR dealer not two months ago and the oil is already black. Is that normal?

This a 2.2L 4 cylinder diesel like the Freelanders had. The recommended service interval is 26,000km or 12 months. We reached about 23,000 in the almost 18 months we had it before the first service – known issue with the DS is the failure for the computer to let us know when a service is due. It's now just past 26,000 and admittedly the past couple of months have had a decent dose of mountains and rough tracks in them.

It doesn't take very long at all for a diesel engine to blacken the oil, Dirty little Buggers[bigwhistle]
26,000k or 12 months seems like a long time between services [tonguewink]

[ATH]

I'd never ever allow an engine to go that long without changing the oil and filter. Talking to a fellow club member yesterday and as he said "Old habits die hard" and he had his new D4s oil/filter changed at 3K.
As he says that's what was done years ago on all new cars as using it removed all the crap from manufacturing caught up (hopefully) in the filter. Nothings changed now as the same stuff is liable to be floating around in your engine.
I change ALL oils at half LRs service schedules and feel that's the best way to go.
If you want longevity from your vehicle, change them. If you're a polly or bureuacrap it wont matter to you as the taxpayer will buy you another new car every couple of years anyway......
AlanH.

[trout1105]

As he says that's what was done years ago on all new cars as using it removed all the crap from manufacturing caught up (hopefully) in the filter.

That is or used to be standard practice with a new engine or after a rebuild, Many of us even do this to standing engines like lawnmowers and gensets.
Run them for a little bit then dump the oil just to be sure that there is no minute metal shavings left in there from where the rings have "Bed" themselves in, Pretty cheap insurance.

[DiscoJeffster]

I've serviced mine every 12000km in the 7 years I've owned my MY08. Now at 170,000km I pull the dipstick before a long trip but have never detected any change in level ever. Is always at full ( and black)

Mine was serviced by the previous owner at the standard 26,000km intervals until 200,000km. It's now at 234,000km and my level drops approximately 100ml over 13,000km. I don't feel the 26,000km intervals have hurt it any, but time will tell if I get to 400,000.
While I'll probably do 13,000km from now on, that's really only because I'll do it annually, not because I don't trust the interval.

[trout1105]

If I am doing a lot of dusty low speed work I will change the oil and filter out every 5,000k otherwise at 10,000k at the most.
Maybe the oils are better and the filters are better but I wouldn't think that a hundred bucks spent on some oil and a filter would be a waste of time and money, What price do you put on peace of mind?
To wait a year or 26,000k before an oil change is unthinkable to me, Maybe I am Old School But I have never had an engine seize on me [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Oil normally goes black pretty quickly because of residue in the engine.

[PerthDisco]

I think 12000km or close to was the recommended interval for the MY08.

[cruiseh]

ok, good consensus that more often is better for the engine. Heres another question;

is changing the oil more frequently likely to reduce the amount of gunk the EGR's create in the Y pipe? i imagine oil misting might be affected by the oils age?

[scarry]

All my D2's went for a service at 20000k or 12 months,whichever came up first,
The D4 goes at 24000k or 12months,whichever comes up first.

All the work vans(Toyotas) go at 10000k or six months as per manufacturers spec.
The few mitsubishi work vans that we still have, go at 15000k or 12 months,whatever comes up first,as per manufacturers spec.
Some of the vans have well over 300000k on them.

Never had an engine issue,ever.

IMHO,if the vehicle is serviced using the correct fluids as per manufacturers spec,and isn't driven in arduous conditions,then over servicing is a waste of time and money.

[shanegtr]

I tend to agree with the over servicing thing. I get my oils sampled regally - the engine I take a sample at 12,000km (service interval for D3) and not once has the oil pulled results thats remotely close to requiring changing. I usually change the engine oil at 15,000km, but with the oil sampling I'm going to see how much difference I get at 20,000km

[trout1105]

IMHO,if the vehicle is serviced using the correct fluids as per manufacturers spec,and isn't driven in arduous conditions,then over servicing is a waste of time and money.

Agreed But what IF you had a Great 4WD that actually was used Off road instead of picking up the kids from school, going shopping or simply "Poncing" about driving around "Showing Off", Then Maybe just Maybe a more vigorous maintenance schedule would be more applicable [bigwhistle]

[DiscoJeffster]

Agreed But what IF you had a Great 4WD that actually was used Off road instead of picking up the kids from school, going shopping or simply "Poncing" about driving around "Showing Off", Then Maybe just Maybe a more vigorous maintenance schedule would be more applicable [bigwhistle]

How about you have your oil sampled after your arduous 4WD usage and provide the evidence of it? That would be awesome, then we'd know it's actually required. I prefer evidence based decision making over ancient rituals. Yep, sure it's cheap insurance but so is a lotto ticket in this case and there's no evidence either way of a likely benefit.
Enough stirring, back to work. [emoji6]

[Tins]

Just out of curiosity I pulled the dipstick on my Discovery Sport this morning. It had its first logbook service at the LR dealer not two months ago and the oil is already black. Is that normal?



A very long tome ago, I was told "If the oil isn't dirty then it's not doing it's job". Old fashioned engines, old fashioned oils, but it still seems pretty sound to me. No IC engine burns so clean that there are no by products.

[trout1105]

How about you have your oil sampled after your arduous 4WD usage and provide the evidence of it?

I have never had my engine oil "Sampled" But I would imagine that this service is not supplied Free of charge.
By changing the oil and filter you know with absolute certainty that the oil is Good to go, So I would rather spend the money on an oil change than on some sampling fee.
Highway driving and off road low range work in dusty conditions will obviously affect the engine oil quite differently So if you are mainly using the 4WD on the hard top then you could probably get away with changing the oil less frequently.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be able to do an oil change and it is not that hard a job and it is a far cheaper option to do it yourself than forking out hundreds of dollars for some apprentice at a workshop to do the job which is very often the case.

Put it this way frequent oil changes will Not harm your engine at all, Dragging out the frequency of an oil change to the point where the oil and or the filter is buggered is an entirely different matter all together [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

I think you are both saying the same thing. Normal intervals are fine except for arduous usage. In my Defender 20,000 is fine as its currently being babied.

[veebs]

Would there really be such a difference between highway driving and 4WDing in relation to the engine oil? Dust in filters I can certainly see, but the oil? I've done relatively little offroading, however with the exception of soft sand driving, the engine tends to be pretty relaxed when I'm away from the bitumen. Rocky work usually results in little more than idle with the occasional 'push' for individual moments, sandy back tracks are also just a meandering engine load, mud much the same, etc. I'm almost always in low range for that though.

I can see there will be more engine revolutions per km, and thus, more fuel burned for the same distance. Driving around town, continuously bringing 2.7t up to 80km/hr then slowing to a stop again will work the engine pretty hard too, you simply get to spread it over more km.

I guess I'm saying the heavy-equipment (earthmoving etc) may have it better figured out, by way of servicing based on engine hours, rather than km or time. I wonder why that never caught on for passenger vehicles...?

[Ean Austral]

Would there really be such a difference between highway driving and 4WDing in relation to the engine oil? Dust in filters I can certainly see, but the oil? I've done relatively little offroading, however with the exception of soft sand driving, the engine tends to be pretty relaxed when I'm away from the bitumen. Rocky work usually results in little more than idle with the occasional 'push' for individual moments, sandy back tracks are also just a meandering engine load, mud much the same, etc. I'm almost always in low range for that though.

I can see there will be more engine revolutions per km, and thus, more fuel burned for the same distance. Driving around town, continuously bringing 2.7t up to 80km/hr then slowing to a stop again will work the engine pretty hard too, you simply get to spread it over more km.

I guess I'm saying the heavy-equipment (earthmoving etc) may have it better figured out, by way of servicing based on engine hours, rather than km or time. I wonder why that never caught on for passenger vehicles...?


Simple - $$ Cost.

Sorry I should re-phrase that - presumed costs - tell someone they only have to service every 12,000 or 24,000kms they think that's about 12 months or even more . Tell someone they have to service every 250 hours they straight away think Wow that's only 11 days. - so they assume they will be doing very short service intervals as they relate to time not KM's

Not a good marketing look for car companies


Cheers Ean

[DiscoMick]

Fixed servicing plans often include both distance and time numbers.

[veebs]

Simple - $$ Cost.

Sorry I should re-phrase that - presumed costs - tell someone they only have to service every 12,000 or 24,000kms they think that's about 12 months or even more . Tell someone they have to service every 250 hours they straight away think Wow that's only 11 days. - so they assume they will be doing very short service intervals as they relate to time not KM's

Not a good marketing look for car companies


Cheers Ean

Hmm, yes, I neglected to allow for the stupidity of the general population. Fair enough. :-)

Still, from an enthusiast perspective, my point stands - do these cars have an engine hour meter in them anywhere? Could actually make for an interesting additional metric when looking to purchase second hand?

[DiscoMick]

I assume harder-worked engines are more likely to get hotter than normal and accelerate oil breakdown. Is that right?

[veebs]

I assume harder-worked engines are more likely to get hotter than normal and accelerate oil breakdown. Is that right?

My understanding of these cars is that the cooling system is somewhat over engineered, so the engine temps are pretty well under control. If the temp still gets too hot the computer starts to take drastic measures like disabling cabin cooling, reducing engine performance, etc.

[ATH]

I've just brought a vac pump and will be doing the D4s first oil/filter change soon at around 11K plus a fuel filter change. Should make a change from the oil up my arms and/or over the floor of my previous Landies. [bigsmile]
AlanH.

[PerthDisco]

So why did the Service interval double from D3 to D4? Doubt a big jump in oil tech. More likely the Toyo v LR service cost discrepancy?

[shanegtr]

I assume harder-worked engines are more likely to get hotter than normal and accelerate oil breakdown. Is that right?
Absolutely, the harder you work it the more heat you dump into not only the cooling system but also the engine oil. With my camper in tow I can get upto an additional 20deg temp in the engine oil at times over the standard unloaded temps. The disco (mine at least) is a fairly hot running engine IMHO - which I suppose is to be expected somewhat with a small capacity engine pumping out as much grunt as they do

[trout1105]

So why did the Service interval double from D3 to D4? Doubt a big jump in oil tech. More likely the Toyo v LR service cost discrepancy?

I would imagine that advertising a vehicle that only needs to be serviced once a year or every 24,000ks makes it a Good selling point [bigwhistle]

[rar110]

Land Rover put the 3.6 tdv8 in 4 variations of Range Rover and according to Carsales prescribe 3 different service intervals:
- Sport L320 to 2009 12,000km;
- Sport L320 MY10 24,000km;
- Vogue L322 2006-2009 11,000km;
- Vogue L322 2009-2010 24,000km.

My 2008 model has had oil and filter change every 10,000km. Now on 265,000km, runs beautifully. Now where's that lump of wood. [emoji4]

[DiscoJeffster]

So it goes without saying, the money made on a vehicle is predominantly from servicing not the sale. I hear some saying what? Yes, by the time a car is designed, manufactured, distributed, margins paid along the way, profits are small percentages. Dealer serving is lucrative. Marked up parts, high labour rates etc. Servicing also supports the dealer network so there is actually somewhere to buy the car in the first place.

A manufacturer is balancing a lucrative servicing business that supports dealers while competing with the market, both competitors and expectations. After all, if you're servicing at 10k intervals but the competition is 20k, in comparison your vehicle is more expensive to maintain in product comparisons. This is compounded by emission controls, environmental expectations and the like.

The double of service intervals by LR will be a balance of all those factors that caught up with them. It is also supported by a capability of the oil product to support it.

Again, no one worries if you (the community) still want to service more frequently - but it's unfair to judge people with statements like 'oil can't possibly last that long' or 'that car's a lemon as they followed the factory interval of 26k'. As per the article below, oil is more than capable. I'm not saying anyone has, but general thought that's harping back to bygone era [emoji6]

About Oil Drain Intervals - oilspecifications.org (http://www.oilspecifications.org/articles/about-oil-drain-intervals.php)

"Oil drain intervals get longer though. The well known 5000 mile oil change interval is largely a thing of the past now. As oils get better and better the longer they can do their job. Modern additive packages ensure that oils last a long time and withstand the heat and contamination for longer than they used to several decades ago. Many car manufacturers allow extended oil change intervals and some cars even keep track of the oil's condition"

And finally, to contradict, is it in LR's interest for them to last forever? See, I can play both sides of the coin [emoji23]

[Melbourne Park]

I assume harder-worked engines are more likely to get hotter than normal and accelerate oil breakdown. Is that right?

Funny thing though - experts have typically claimed that you don't want to buy a diesel that has not been worked hard. Yet buyers of used Discos seem to want the shopping trolley cars - but they are the ones that have had lots of short runs. Perhaps the buying public do not know what they are doing?

I guess too - there are different styles of diesel motors. Many have come from car motors too - and IMO they share distillate, but resemble more petrol engine philosophies. VW Golf diesels were the first of those motors IMO.

Looking at Prados - the 3 litre turbo diesel was a slug and the D4D common rail 3 litre was a far better performing motor. But ... the earlier motor keeps on keeping on. The D4D explodes without warning, and your up for $10k or more, and Toyota don't care. Many report that towing contributes, as do tuning chips. Despite their constant oil changes,. The cure evidently is to change the injectors, and to test the injector function at every service. But Toyota typically don't test the injector function at service. I don't know whether LR test their injector function either.

Our motors are quite unusual IMO and evidently they are not cheap to make. Their block material is different to what was used before in car diesels. And perhaps, I suspect they might be over engineered due to the "first time" nature of their engine block metal.

Another issue though with diesel lubrication oil is that it gets soot in it. The LR unit is said to be cleaner than for instance Toyota diesels. But the black oil look which is smooth to the touch - evidently that is due to very fine soot. Evidently the soot is finer than oil filters and if it clumps up, it can gather in the sump and start blocking circulation. Sort of like cholesterol does in getting older man. But the older man has to change his life style and eat less and well and exercise much more. While with your LR diesel - all you have to do is give it an extra oil change.

[DiscoMick]

Or filter more.

[scarry]

I would imagine that advertising a vehicle that only needs to be serviced once a year or every 24,000ks makes it a Good selling point [bigwhistle]

Possibly,but then Toyota sell more vehicles in this country than any other vehicle manufacturer,by a huge margin,and most if not all of them,apart from a few Camry models have service intervals of 10000k or six months whatever comes first.

This is way more often than industry standard.

FRom my experience,and I run a fleet of Toyota vans,all serviced at the local stealer,they also don't charge the rediculous exorbitant servicing prices that some other manufacturers,such as LR charge.Just using LR as an example,many other European manufacturers also do the same.

Looking only at hourly rates,LR charge just under double the fleet rate we get at Toyota.

Some may say the Toyotas are serviced twice as often,true,but it is still cheaper as their fluids are way cheaper,and as said,so is labour rates.

[shanegtr]

Another issue though with diesel lubrication oil is that it gets soot in it. The LR unit is said to be cleaner than for instance Toyota diesels. But the black oil look which is smooth to the touch - evidently that is due to very fine soot. Evidently the soot is finer than oil filters and if it clumps up, it can gather in the sump and start blocking circulation. Sort of like cholesterol does in getting older man. But the older man has to change his life style and eat less and well and exercise much more. While with your LR diesel - all you have to do is give it an extra oil change.
Most modern diesels are far better at avoiding soot loading of the oil from the increased efficiency of the common rail injection system. So any soot in the oil will still turn it black as the oil does its job. You really cant tell how much soot is in oil by its colour - example my old 1HZ engine in my 80 series used to have around 2% soot in the oil after 10,000km (and a 10L oil sump too) where as the TDV6 in the disco is around .6 - .7% soot after 15,000km (and with half the oil capacity). In both engines the oil was black doesnt really look or feel any differently.
One of the jobs of the oil detergent is to prevent the soot particles from coagulating together and forming sludge. It does this by coating the soot particle so it doesn't stick to another soot particle and ensures that the contamination is removed during an oil change.

[Milton477]

I have just had my D4 serviced & according to my GAP tool, the next service will be in 25k km.
I had done 15k km since the previous service & the dash was already telling me that I needed a service.
My question is does the car calculate when the next service is due by taking into account loads, temperatures etc?

[DiscoMick]

Time or distance, which ever comes first, I expect.

[Melbourne Park]

...
Looking only at hourly rates,LR charge just under double the fleet rate we get at Toyota.

Some may say the Toyotas are serviced twice as often,true,but it is still cheaper as their fluids are way cheaper,and as said,so is labour rates.

Toyota also give fixed priced servicing for 3 years.

However, various dealerships will rip you off. I took a Camry Grande V6 2006 when it was 6 years old (and had just 4k on it) to Brighton Toyota in Nepean Highway, and I said fully service it. They rang and said "do everything that's needed" and said yes - they charged me $1,400!!! The same dealership charged me the fixed price charge for a Prado ($210 I think) and then they charged me over $100 for oil. I took the car to Werribee Toyota for a service (the Prado) and they changed all the lubricants, did the brake fluid, diffs, and they charged me $210 all up.

I guess it depends which dealership you go to. Obviously fleet gets a much better deal than a bunny like me does!!!

[Melbourne Park]

Most modern diesels are far better at avoiding soot loading of the oil from the increased efficiency of the common rail injection system. So any soot in the oil will still turn it black as the oil does its job. You really cant tell how much soot is in oil by its colour - example my old 1HZ engine in my 80 series used to have around 2% soot in the oil after 10,000km (and a 10L oil sump too) where as the TDV6 in the disco is around .6 - .7% soot after 15,000km (and with half the oil capacity). In both engines the oil was black doesnt really look or feel any differently. ...

Do you know how much distillate was in the lubrication oil in the TDV6 at 15k? I guess you must be changing the oil at 15k or was that 12 months and you change annually?

Also with changing the oil - if I take my Disco (still under LR warranty) to a third party LR specialist, can they record an oil change on LR's web based service records?

[Melbourne Park]

Talking of contaminants, how many here plan to block of their exhaust gas recirculation? Those things fill up the motor with crab ... I don't know if LR specialists regularly block those things off.

[shanegtr]

Do you know how much distillate was in the lubrication oil in the TDV6 at 15k? I guess you must be changing the oil at 15k or was that 12 months and you change annually?

Also with changing the oil - if I take my Disco (still under LR warranty) to a third party LR specialist, can they record an oil change on LR's web based service records?
I've been changing around the 15k mark - I dont wait until 12 months - done 2 oil changes this year already. Heres my last 5 engine oil samples for you - 1% fuel for the last 4 and less than 1% for the oldest in the list
126608

[Melbourne Park]

I've been changing around the 15k mark - I dont wait until 12 months - done 2 oil changes this year already. Heres my last 5 engine oil samples for you - 1% fuel for the last 4 and less than 1% for the oldest in the list
126608

That's fantastic, thanks.

How much does it cost to have the oil tested?

I am wondering too, with your 2.7 litre TDv6, do you get the injectors checked? Evidently their behaviour can predict bad behaviour - namely crankshaft failures (1.3% evidently in the 2.7). Don't want to scare you, but from what I'd read if I recall correctly, the injector performance / feedback indicated potential issues. I did not understand why and it was some considerable time ago when I was researching before buying a Disco myself. With Toyotas, their common rail diesel injectors need to be changed when their performance drops otherwise they'll likely have a catastrophe.

[shanegtr]

That's fantastic, thanks.

How much does it cost to have the oil tested?

I am wondering too, with your 2.7 litre TDv6, do you get the injectors checked? Evidently their behaviour can predict bad behaviour - namely crankshaft failures (1.3% evidently in the 2.7). Don't want to scare you, but from what I'd read if I recall correctly, the injector performance / feedback indicated potential issues. I did not understand why and it was some considerable time ago when I was researching before buying a Disco myself. With Toyotas, their common rail diesel injectors need to be changed when their performance drops otherwise they'll likely have a catastrophe.
No worries, Checking the injector figures regually with my IID tool is something I've been meaning to add to my list of things to do, however I keep forgetting to make some time to research what the figures mean and what I can gain from them, otherwise its just a bunch of meaniless numbers[bighmmm]

I pay around $28 per oil sample. I also check the diffs, transfer and auto trans

[scarry]

Toyota also give fixed priced servicing for 3 years.

However, various dealerships will rip you off. I took a Camry Grande V6 2006 when it was 6 years old (and had just 4k on it) to Brighton Toyota in Nepean Highway, and I said fully service it. They rang and said "do everything that's needed" and said yes - they charged me $1,400!!! The same dealership charged me the fixed price charge for a Prado ($210 I think) and then they charged me over $100 for oil. I took the car to Werribee Toyota for a service (the Prado) and they changed all the lubricants, did the brake fluid, diffs, and they charged me $210 all up.

I guess it depends which dealership you go to. Obviously fleet gets a much better deal than a bunny like me does!!!


Had a van done today(Saturday),at the dealer,big service,$392,engine oil and filter,coolant flush,brake fluid,diff oil,brake test on some machine,couple of other little things.

Not bad,now if that would have been the D4,i recon $1k at the stealers at least,probably actually more like $1.5K,but it may have also included two diffs and possibly a transfer case as well.My Indie would do the D4 for i am guessing around $790 to $990,and do a better job.

[Melbourne Park]

...

Not bad,now if that would have been the D4,i recon $1k at the stealers at least,probably actually more like $1.5K,but it may have also included two diffs and possibly a transfer case as well.My Indie would do the D4 for i am guessing around $790 to $990,and do a better job.

A Concern with Toyota (and other big) dealerships was whether when they said they changed the diff oil - that they really did!!

[DiscoJeffster]

A Concern with Toyota (and other big) dealerships was whether when they said they changed the diff oil - that they really did!!

LR is the same. I don't trust any dealerships personally. You only have to get one lazy guy on the tools and you can forget that diff oil change actually being done.

[scarry]

LR is the same. I don't trust any dealerships personally. You only have to get one lazy guy on the tools and you can forget that diff oil change actually being done.

Or they put the wrong type in which is what my indie did once.

If I hadn't picked it up on the invoice,no one would ever have known.

One of my brothers had the TC on his Plado filled with the wrong oil,by the mechanic he had been using for over 20yrs.The TC was destroyed and the mechanic paid for a new one.You would have thought the mechanic would have known,particularly as this happened in Darwin which is Toyota country.

Rotating tyres is another thing they seem to miss,or do it incorrectly.I have caught them out more than once on this one.

Pretty easy to check if oils have been changed,by checking not only the oil but seeing if both the filler and drain plugs have oil around them.Same for filter,a visual.

[rick130]

I've been changing around the 15k mark - I dont wait until 12 months - done 2 oil changes this year already. Heres my last 5 engine oil samples for you - 1% fuel for the last 4 and less than 1% for the oldest in the list
126608
Old hands on here will be sick of hearing me mention this, but fifteen years ago I was able to extend the service intervals to 20,000km on the ex's GU Patrol with the TD42T.
This was back in the 500ppm sulphur diesel days, we lived on a farm, constant dirt road use and constant towing horses.
She was doing about 7,500-10,000km/month, I was over doing 5,000km oil changes every two to three weeks with premium mineral oils.

Oil analysis showed the HD premium syn oil could've gone longer easily, but we are in front financially, and wear metal numbers were lower than what we were getting at 5-7000km with the other oils we'd been using.

What I do have to mention is that nearly all trips were quite long, most were around five hours. The shortest trip undertaken would've been around 25km km. Short trips of under 30-40km are probably the hardest thing on a diesel, it takes that long to get things up to temp properly and vaporise of any condensation IMO.
The hardest thing of all is stop/start short trip city driving.
Oil change intervals need to be pulled back dramatically.
I can go into acidity, TBN, (the oils reserve alkalinity) etc if anyone is interested.

When I last saw that car about two years ago it was still gong strong at over 500,000km without a spanner on it.
The only thing I noticed was some oil getting past the valve stem seals when cold.

I'll also state again, the air filter is more important than the oil filter.
Full flow oil filters aren't terribly efficient, real filtration (around 1 micron) is only performed wth by-pass filters (think TD5 rotor filter)
The best synthetic media full flow oil filters are around beta2=6, (6 micron nominal) range, most cellulose fibre filters are in the 20-30 micron nominal range.

Most people change the air filter too frequently, air filters become more efficient as the filter loads, the downside is pressure drop increases.
The other thing to be careful when changing too frequently is introducing contamination by not being careful and clean when swapping them out.
One of the reasons why industrial/off road machines have safety filters inside the main filter.

The most important thing is the sealing in the air box, panel filters are shockers for not sealing properly, and don't be tempted into installing a washable type filter if you want to keep your car forever.

[ATH]

"and don't be tempted into installing a washable type filter if you want to keep your car forever".
Not sure about the forever bit but I would second that about not using the "cleanable, re-usable" air filters.
Had one in our first Disco 300Tdi but after one trip I threw it away.
Now I carry a spare paper filter and knock it on the bull bar if we do any really dusty work.
AlanH.

[DiscoMick]

Old hands on here will be sick of hearing me mention this, but fifteen years ago I was able to extend the service intervals to 20,000km on the ex's GU Patrol with the TD42T.
This was back in the 500ppm sulphur diesel days, we lived on a farm, constant dirt road use and constant towing horses.
She was doing about 7,500-10,000km/month, I was over doing 5,000km oil changes every two to three weeks with premium mineral oils.

Oil analysis showed the HD premium syn oil could've gone longer easily, but we are in front financially, and wear metal numbers were lower than what we were getting at 5-7000km with the other oils we'd been using.

What I do have to mention is that nearly all trips were quite long, most were around five hours. The shortest trip undertaken would've been around 25km km. Short trips of under 30-40km are probably the hardest thing on a diesel, it takes that long to get things up to temp properly and vaporise of any condensation IMO.
The hardest thing of all is stop/start short trip city driving.
Oil change intervals need to be pulled back dramatically.
I can go into acidity, TBN, (the oils reserve alkalinity) etc if anyone is interested.

When I last saw that car about two years ago it was still gong strong at over 500,000km without a spanner on it.
The only thing I noticed was some oil getting past the valve stem seals when cold.

I'll also state again, the air filter is more important than the oil filter.
Full flow oil filters aren't terribly efficient, real filtration (around 1 micron) is only performed wth by-pass filters (think TD5 rotor filter)
The best synthetic media full flow oil filters are around beta2=6, (6 micron nominal) range, most cellulose fibre filters are in the 20-30 micron nominal range.

Most people change the air filter too frequently, air filters become more efficient as the filter loads, the downside is pressure drop increases.
The other thing to be careful when changing too frequently is introducing contamination by not being careful and clean when swapping them out.
One of the reasons why industrial/off road machines have safety filters inside the main filter.

The most important thing is the sealing in the air box, panel filters are shockers for not sealing properly, and don't be tempted into installing a washable type filter if you want to keep your car forever.
Interesting. Would you mind explaining the bit about air filters as I hadn't heard that argument before. Isn't a new clean filter more efficient than a used filter?

[rick130]

Interesting. Would you mind explaining the bit about air filters as I hadn't heard that argument before. Isn't a new clean filter more efficient than a used filter?
Mick I'll dig up some posts by Ben/isuzurover later (he's a filtration engineer) but yes, any air filter increases efficiency as it loads, ie. it traps a greater % of particles, the trade off is lower air flow.

[Melbourne Park]

Interesting. Would you mind explaining the bit about air filters as I hadn't heard that argument before. Isn't a new clean filter more efficient than a used filter?

I am just guessing, but IMO there is a large surplus of pressurised air available for combustion even when the filter is needing replacement. So efficiency from a combustion point of view would only be effected if the filter was becoming blocked.

Concerning the filter's efficiency itself i.e. how much dirt it lets through, I presume that contaminants in the filter would not decrease the filtering - hence when the filter is new, it would not filter better than when it had gathered contaminants.

I guess the fitment of the filter, and the longevity of such fitment, are keys to how well the filter works - which is also an efficiency issue I guess.

There must be a compromise between working life of the filter and the size of the contaminants that the filter lets through. i.e. the finer the filter, the less contaminants it lets through, but the shorter its working life must be. IMO of course ... I don't know anything about those issues ...

[veebs]

[snip] I pay around $28 per oil sample. I also check the diffs, transfer and auto trans

Is this something you simply ask for when servicing? Or, where do you get it done?

W

[eddy]

Could always give Westrac a call SOS Fluid Analysis - Oil Testing | WesTrac (http://forms.westrac.com.au/fluids/?keyword=oil%20analysis&creative=195510814788&gclid=CMHCufPkntUCFZIGKgodJAUPrg)

[trout1105]

Is this something you simply ask for when servicing? Or, where do you get it done?

W

I find that the finger, thumb, eyes and nose method works pretty well. [bigwhistle]
Anyway even if you only suspect that your engine oil is on its way out it isn't a huge expense nor is it a hugely technical issue to drop and replace the oil and filter yourself, Personally I would much prefer to throw away some reasonably good oil instead of running the risk of damage caused by bad oil.

[shanegtr]

Is this something you simply ask for when servicing? Or, where do you get it done?

W
I do all my own servicing so its pretty simple for me to do. I use ALS for my oil samples and you can either by the samples individual or in boxes of 10.

[rick130]

I find that the finger, thumb, eyes and nose method works pretty well. [bigwhistle]
[snip]

Good enough to judge the difference between 1% and 3% soot loading ? [bigwhistle]

All stirring aside, a white piece of cardboard with a drop of oil on it, ie. a business card is pretty effective at evaluating a few things like fuel dilution. ;)

[scarry]

Good enough to judge the difference between 1% and 3% soot loading ? [bigwhistle]

All stirring aside, a white piece of cardboard with a drop of oil on it, ie. a business card is pretty effective at evaluating a few things like fuel dilution. ;)

Ok,drop of oil on white piece of cardboard,then what[wink11]

Please explain she said....[bighmmm]

[trout1105]

Good enough to judge the difference between 1% and 3% soot loading ? [bigwhistle]

All stirring aside, a white piece of cardboard with a drop of oil on it, ie. a business card is pretty effective at evaluating a few things like fuel dilution. ;)

When I pull the dipstick out and run it between my fingers to check the texture, smell the oil and look at the colour I can pretty much tell if the oil needs changing.
Next time you check your oil use one hand to check the oil in the engine and put some new oil on the other hand to see, smell and feel the difference [thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

When I pull the dipstick out and run it between my fingers to check the texture, smell the oil and look at the colour I can pretty much tell if the oil needs changing.
Next time you check your oil use one hand to check the oil in the engine and put some new oil on the other hand to see, smell and feel the difference [thumbsupbig]

Thats the official way Toyota know when the power steering oil or the manual gearbox oil in our vans needs changing.

I showed the service manager the power steering oil in one of them that had the consistency and colour of treacle,and the smell of burnt auto trans oil,and he had no answer for me.

[rick130]

When I pull the dipstick out and run it between my fingers to check the texture, smell the oil and look at the colour I can pretty much tell if the oil needs changing.
Next time you check your oil use one hand to check the oil in the engine and put some new oil on the other hand to see, smell and feel the difference [thumbsupbig]

Umm, no.
That's the sort of thing blokes did when I was a kid, (early seventies) and I still remember Dad's 'greaseologist' (that's what it said on his wall) telling him "that Shell oil was no good as it went black really quickly"
No, what that colour change meant was it had better detergency and dispersancy than the Castrol GTX we put in our Jeep and Holden's, it was doing it's job and cleaning and suspending stuff.

Colour with diesel oil for the most part means absolutely nothing, it generally goes black pretty quickly, even with the TD5, and as for texture, I was joking re soot %'s, but I'm damned if anyone can feel the difference between 0.5% (ok) and 4% (well past most peoples condemnation limit) and either is as black as night.
Yes, we can all smell diesel, but if it's at the point you can smell it in engine oil it's waaaay past the point it's doing potential damage.
No oil, regardless of cost nor pedigree nor additive level nor base oils can cope with fuel dilution (or coolant for that matter, glycol is an oil killer too)

A business card and a drop of oil will give you a quick and dirty visual reference.
If it spreads fairly quickly and gives a lighter outer ring like a 'halo' that's probably an indicator of fuel.
This is a great one for when you suspect but aren't sure (and you're waiting for the lab results)
Soot levels can be indicated in the outer ring, I'll try and dig up an example, there used to be an excellent Cummins reference I've posted before.

Old school GP's could tell a lot by grabbing your wrist, looking in your eyes and looking at your tongue, but looking at and feeling engine oil I don't think you can pick up too much.

[shanegtr]

Ok,drop of oil on white piece of cardboard,then what[wink11]

Please explain she said....[bighmmm]
Google Fuel dilution blotter test, you'll find heaps of info


Umm, no.
That's the sort of thing blokes did when I was a kid, (early seventies) and I still remember Dad's 'greaseologist' (that's what it said on his wall) telling him "that Shell oil was no good as it went black really quickly"
No, what that colour change meant was it had better detergency and dispersancy than the Castrol GTX we put in our Jeep and Holden's, it was doing it's job and cleaning and suspending stuff.

Colour with diesel oil for the most part means absolutely nothing, it generally goes black pretty quickly, even with the TD5, and as for texture, I was joking re soot %'s, but I'm damned if anyone can feel the difference between 0.5% (ok) and 4% (well past most peoples condemnation limit) and either is as black as night.
Yes, we can all smell diesel, but if it's at the point you can smell it in engine oil it's waaaay past the point it's doing potential damage.
No oil, regardless of cost nor pedigree nor additive level nor base oils can cope with fuel dilution (or coolant for that matter, glycol is an oil killer too)

A business card and a drop of oil will give you a quick and dirty visual reference.
If it spreads fairly quickly and gives a lighter outer ring like a 'halo' that's probably an indicator of fuel.
This is a great one for when you suspect but aren't sure (and you're waiting for the lab results)
Soot levels can be indicated in the outer ring, I'll try and dig up an example, there used to be an excellent Cummins reference I've posted before.

Old school GP's could tell a lot by grabbing your wrist, looking in your eyes and looking at your tongue, but looking at and feeling engine oil I don't think you can pick up too much.
Totally agree with your comments there Rick.

[veebs]

When I pull the dipstick out and run it between my fingers to check the texture, smell the oil and look at the colour I can pretty much tell if the oil needs changing.
Next time you check your oil use one hand to check the oil in the engine and put some new oil on the other hand to see, smell and feel the difference [thumbsupbig]

I check my oil by pressing a few buttons on the steering wheel - from that perspective the oil always looks pretty sweet :)

I assumed the oil analysis would give early indications of the wear on various components in the engine - the same way it does for a caterpillar haul truck, for example.
I had the romantic notion that you could, for example, know that some widget in the back of the block needed changing long before you found out the hard way, after a catastrophic failure half way along the canning stock route...

[trout1105]

I check my oil by pressing a few buttons on the steering wheel - from that perspective the oil always looks pretty sweet :)

My Disco didn't come fitted with that option in 2004, all I have got is a dipstick to check the oil [bigsad]

[veebs]

My Disco didn't come fitted with that option in 2004, all I have got is a dipstick to check the oil [bigsad]

Be glad - I would prefer that. In order to check the oil you need to have the engine warmed up, but turned off for ~ 10min. Sounds simple, but it makes checking oil a long process. And if you miss the checking window of opportunity, you need to start again.

[trout1105]

Be glad - I would prefer that. In order to check the oil you need to have the engine warmed up, but turned off for ~ 10min. Sounds simple, but it makes checking oil a long process. And if you miss the checking window of opportunity, you need to start again.

Doesn't the D4 have a dipstick?

[letherm]

Be glad - I would prefer that. In order to check the oil you need to have the engine warmed up, but turned off for ~ 10min. Sounds simple, but it makes checking oil a long process. And if you miss the checking window of opportunity, you need to start again.

There was a previous thread about this. Pop the bonnet and you can check it straight away.

Martin

[scarry]

My Disco didn't come fitted with that option in 2004, all I have got is a dipstick to check the oil [bigsad]

Dipstick any day for me,nice and easy,and shouldn't fail🙂

[rar110]

My L322 is the last RR diesel with a dipstick, which is also my preferred way of checking the oil.

[ATH]

I check mine while the Cooks on one of her shopping expeditions so I have plenty of time to wait. I presume the 10 minute bit is to allow the oil to drain down into the sump.
Even with a dipstick or when doing an oil change I've always waited before checking oil levels.
AlanH.

[trout1105]

Starting an engine up to warm it before doing a Pre start pretty much defeats the purpose doesn't it?

[rick130]

I check my oil by pressing a few buttons on the steering wheel - from that perspective the oil always looks pretty sweet :)

I assumed the oil analysis would give early indications of the wear on various components in the engine - the same way it does for a caterpillar haul truck, for example.
I had the romantic notion that you could, for example, know that some widget in the back of the block needed changing long before you found out the hard way, after a catastrophic failure half way along the canning stock route...

The best thing oil analysis does is catch fuel, glycol and dust problems before they become a problem.
It's less and less these days about "what's the best oil"

Unfortunately oil analysis doesn't catch catastrophic failures.
Parts can just fail, and it's crap when they do, but it will tell you if, for example a bearing is on the way out.
Which one it is, eg. cam, big end, little end, rocker bush or main is another question.....

[rick130]

I do all my own servicing so its pretty simple for me to do. I use ALS for my oil samples and you can either by the samples individual or in boxes of 10.

Shane, was it your D3 that had the highish Fe diff oil levels ?

Cheers.

[RHS58]

Dipstick any day for me,nice and easy,and shouldn't fail🙂

Dipstick?
Disgusting things drip oil all over the nice clean engine bay and on your clothes and shoes.
We cant have that on our soccer run.

[rick130]

Dipstick?
Disgusting things drip oil all over the nice clean engine bay and on your clothes and shoes.
We cant have that on our soccer run.
Oh come on, that client base wouldn't know how to open the bonnet! 😃

[RHS58]

Oh come on, that client base wouldn't know how to open the bonnet! 😃

Open the bonnet?
They'd be troubled finding the latch, which LR has hidden on the passenger side just for them.

[shanegtr]

Shane, was it your D3 that had the highish Fe diff oil levels ?

Cheers.

Yep that me