Puma Engine broken and bleeding with missfire and choofing

[ozrob]

Hi all,
It has finally happened, my MY13 155,000km 110 engine has broken, I suspect a holed piston as is is misfiring, front crankshaft oil seal is ejecting lots of oil and the crank case is being pressurized[bigsad]
Being a mechanic I know that the engine is terminal, I will push LR to repair or replace under Australian consumer Law as you should expect that a modern diesel engine should last more than 155,000 km.
The vehicle is due to be delivered on the back of a tilt tray to the dealer tomorrow, and i will have a chat with them, they know I am a mechanic and have had no issues in getting warranty work and good will work done with no issues.
Wife not happy...she suggested i should have bought a Hilux, Ranger and even a Jeep[bawl]
Dozer if you are out there.....what was wrong with your engine when it failed and I recall that the dealer was quite good in assisting in getting the repairs done under good will, but I cant recall the details....

[1nando]

Wow. That's terrible news mate. Were there any signs of it being on the way out?

[Colmoore]

Yowsers that's no good mate! 2.4 or 2.2?
I'm a bit concerned - my 2.4 is about to tick over 145k atm
Hopefully LR come good.
Just show your wife this
Instagram (https://instagram.com/p/BWuvv6fHMZx/) [emoji51]

[DFNDR90]

2.4 or 2.2?

MY13 so must be 2.2.

Hope all goes well with the dealer ozrob!!

ps - any 'symptoms' before it went?

[ozrob]

MY13 so must be 2.2.

Hope all goes well with the dealer ozrob!!

ps - any 'symptoms' before it went?

Hi all, the motor is a 2.2, no symptoms at all before the loss of power.
I spoke to the dealer this morning and advised that LR Australia should consider repairing the engine as it only has 155,000Km on it and the engine is used in other commercial vehicles with no issues, the mechanic agreed with me, and they will have to diagnose the issue and then bring it up with LRA.
Wife still not happy.......as we also have a 2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara with 315,000 km with no issues.

[komaterpillar]

Trade the wife in and engine swap the landy? LS3 or cyote?

[1nando]

Mine is a 2013 2.2 110. Mine had the oil pump recall done as it fell in a particular vin number range. Did yours?

[ozrob]

Mine is a 2013 2.2 110. Mine had the oil pump recall done as it fell in a particular vin number range. Did yours?
Yes mine had the oil pump recall done too last year.

[jimr1]

When I read your post I'm thinking that no good poor bugger. I can understand the bit about your wife as well . I hope LRA come to the party and sort out our motor , or even better replace it . Please let us know how you get on , Good luck Jim .

[1nando]

Any update?

[grinna1965]

How did you go with your engine mate,if you need an engine I have a 2.2 with 20000km on it

[ozrob]

How did you go with your engine mate,if you need an engine I have a 2.2 with 20000km on it

The dealer has put a claim to LR Australia to replace the engine...that was last week so we will see what the verdict is soon I hope.

[cuppabillytea]

Mine's almost halfway to those Ks. I'll be interested do see what caused the failure.

[1nando]

There are literally 100s of thousands of these engines running around world wide.
Considering the numbers of them out there these cases seem to be rare. I hope LR comes to the party mate, i really do.

[cuppabillytea]

There are literally 100s of thousands of these engines running around world wide.
Considering the numbers of them out there these cases seem to be rare. I hope LR comes to the party mate, i really do.

My sentiments exactly.

[ozrob]

I got a call from the service manager at the dealer today, he went on explaining that an injector failed which then caused the compression loss in No4 cylinder...then advised that they need to replace the engine, fuel system high pressure pump and injectors, and filter. As well as assorted gaskets...he then advised that the cost will be $29,000.00[bawl]
As you perhaps could have guessed there was a moment of silence as i calculated in my mind the cost......I then mentioned what about the claim to LR Australia....he was unaware that there was even a claim in....so he advised that he will call me back....two hours later I called the dealer and he advised that there was a case submitted to LRA and I will be updated tomorrow as the case manager was away today.
How can a engine cost 3/4 the cost of a new vehicle...seriously????
I will not be forking out $29K for a new engine when as a consumer I expect a diesel engine to last more than 155,000 km, even if the injector failed due to water contamination, then the LR fuel filter/separator is not fit for purpose due to the fact that if the engine fuel system is so sensitive to fuel contamination then where is the warning system to alert the driver that there could be water in the fuel....my 1986 Hilux has such a warning light from the factory.
If the injector failed prematurely then as a result destroyed the engine, then why is that the fault of the consumer?
Serious....if the fuel system and engine is so sensitive to premature failure then I would not have bought the vehicle in the first place, was I warned by the selling dealer that there is potential for your engine to fail with low kilometers on it every three years....If I had say a million K's on it i would understand, but with all this modern technology gone are the days of a engine rebuild every 200,000km.
I will be pushing the issue that the fuel systems on the Puma motor and LR engineering for the fuel filter are not fit for purpose, it is a bloody 4x4 that is meant for worldwide expeditions where you can get various different qualities of fuel, so the fuel system should be able to cope, the system should not have a major failure just driving up a small hill in the city on the way home from work....sorry...rant over.....but very unhappy.:bat:

[cuppabillytea]

Too bloody right LR should replace the engine and I'll bet, in the end, they do.

[Marty90]

I was trying to find another thread of engine failure but couldn't remember why their engine failed until you pointed out the injector fault. Theirs was also an injector that caused the damage. Don't recall it having been contaminated though,thougt it was more related to a common rail issue. So,in your case a water separator (that actually works) might have avoided this problem?

[MLD]

You give me $20,000 (mates rates discount) and I'll give you a new engine, injectors and anything else that needs replacing.[bighmmm] I was quoted $6,000 for a long block (a 2.4) from Transit Auto on the outskirts of Melb. They offered a $7,000 roll in drive out engine replacement (that was 12 months ago). I was quoted $400 an injector. Even allowing for gold plated terminals there is a bit of fat in your quote. Like i said, I'll give you mates rates to sort it on your behalf.

If you go down the litigation route on the ACL, PM me, I might be able to offer some assistance or at least a sounding board (my bread and butter).

[ozrob]

Hi all,
I have had a response from LRA.....their response was that all things considered they will not replace the engine.
As the vehicle is out of warranty and not serviced at a Land Rover Dealer.
I did advise that in the owners manual it does state that the vehicle should be serviced by a "qualified mechanic", I have been a licensed mechanic for 30 years, made no difference to their decision.
I advised that the injector failed which I as a consumer have no control over which then caused a major component failure, which is covered under the Consumer Law ACT, again they were not interested.
The dealer could not tell me why the injector failed...it just did.
Now it is up to me to pay for the diagnostics performed by the dealer and have the vehicle towed 100 km's back to my home.
I am bloody devastated that LRA can treat a customer this way.
I will be going down the path of ACL to seek advise in getting the matter resolved.
Even if I did spend the $20K in getting a new engine what's to say it won't happen again?
I love my Defender...but now I am guttered, if the vehicle is this unreliable then I have wasted $50K on a three and a half year old vehicle.

So kids be very cautious when it comes to dealing with LRA.

[djam1]

Mate I am deeply sorry for your situation and pray that you will be able to find an alternative source for an engine.
I found an interesting site in the UK there seems to be some animosity toward them in both Transit and Land Rover circles
They claim that the failure is not due to injector failure??

Ford Duratorq- 2.2l TDCI (http://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053/)


Hi all,
I have had a response from LRA.....their response was that all things considered they will not replace the engine.
As the vehicle is out of warranty and not serviced at a Land Rover Dealer.
I did advise that in the owners manual it does state that the vehicle should be serviced by a "qualified mechanic", I have been a licensed mechanic for 30 years, made no difference to their decision.
I advised that the injector failed which I as a consumer have no control over which then caused a major component failure, which is covered under the Consumer Law ACT, again they were not interested.
The dealer could not tell me why the injector failed...it just did.
Now it is up to me to pay for the diagnostics performed by the dealer and have the vehicle towed 100 km's back to my home.
I am bloody devastated that LRA can treat a customer this way.
I will be going down the path of ACL to seek advise in getting the matter resolved.
Even if I did spend the $20K in getting a new engine what's to say it won't happen again?
I love my Defender...but now I am guttered, if the vehicle is this unreliable then I have wasted $50K on a three and a half year old vehicle.

So kids be very cautious when it comes to dealing with LRA.

[1nando]

Mate i feel for you, i really do.
As MLD said im sure you can get a new engine supllied and installed for a lot less.

Im willing to chip in $100 towards helping you if we can get others do the same it will help soften the burden on you.

[cuppabillytea]

Mate i feel for you, i really do.
As MLD said im sure you can get a new engine supllied and installed for a lot less.

Im willing to chip in $100 towards helping you if we can get others do the same it will help soften the burden on you.

If that is the last resort, yes I'd help too but I think it should be taken to the absolute limit with LR first.

[ozrob]

If that is the last resort, yes I'd help too but I think it should be taken to the absolute limit with LR first.
Thanks All,
Much appreciated in your offer to assist, however; I will gracefully decline, as it is not the money that is the issue it is the principle.
I have been able to source a new Ford 2.2 motor from Transit automotive, for $4500 +GST, however; they are not 100% sure if the ford 2.2 is the same as the Defender 2.2.
They are certain that the 2.4 is OK.
Can anyone one confirm if the Ford 2.2 is the same as the LR 2.2?

[1nando]

The defender 2.2 has a different oiling system to acomadate offroads angles that could potentially starve the engine

[MLD]

The defender 2.2 has a different oiling system to acomadate offroads angles that could potentially starve the engine

The duratorq 2.2 is also found in the Ranger 4x4. With no actual knowledge, I would be surprised that Land Rover would go to the effort to order a 2.2 with different engine design to that in the Ranger 2.2 and the Transit. Economics would dictate that the Land Rover engine would fall into line with the larger production run.

The comment above is correct in principle and true for the duratorq 2.4 up to 2004 production. Post 2004 duratorq 2.4's were the same engine design in the Transit and Defender. It was in 2004 that the oiling system was modified. Keeping in mind the primary difference between the 2.2 and 2.4 engine is stroke, ignoring all the improved bits that bolt onto the block, i assume the oiling modification carried over into the 2.2. For the reasons above, i would be very surprised that Land Rover 2.2 has an improved oiling design over the Ranger 2.2 and Transit, particularly when that modification was implemented in 2004 in the 2.4's.

OzRob - the engine code will confirm whether its the same. If Transit Auto say it's fine for the Ranger 4x4 I'd take comfort in that. Still an expense that no one wants. The silver lining: its only $4,500 + GST. Cheaper than a long block 2.4 and far cheaper than LR dealership quote.

[djam1]

There at least 1 common engine code between the Transit and the Land Rover if you used this engine surely it would be ok???

[filcar]

As a new donk is going in have you thought about the 3.2 motor?

[PhilipA]

When car manufacturers talk of a "different oiling system" they usually mean a deeper or baffled sump.
it bus hard for me to imagine that Ford would change any internal components of the engine for what is a tiny volume customer.
Examples that come to mind are theD3 v6 petrol and the 2.7 diesel.

regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

This could be wrong, but I vaguely remember reading a reference to Land Rover fitting a bigger sump. I don't know if that is true of the Ranger engine.

[MLD]

This could be wrong, but I vaguely remember reading a reference to Land Rover fitting a bigger sump. I don't know if that is true of the Ranger engine.

If that's the difference between the 2 blocks one would assume the sump off the old engine could be swapped over. I wish all automotive problems were that easy to resolve.

[PAT303]

So Denso wasn't happy destroying Toybota engines,they have to do Land Rovers as well.It's **** poor that LR owners are suffering alternator, regulator and now injector failure because of shoddy parts. Pat

[rar110]

At 155,000 km Land Rover should pay 1/2 the cost of a new bare motor. It would be reasonable to expect a motor to last twice that.

The catch is you could spent $10k on lawyers to achieve your desired result, and not recover your legal costs. And that's more than if you just found your own solution.

[Pierre]

The ACCC chairman had a few things to say about the automotive industry's delivery of service, particularly repairs, today. IIRC, he indicated that Oz consumer law protected us (end users) against this exact thing - washing hands because of, say, lack of dealer servicing. I can understand that such a circumstance could affect the quantum of GOODWILL that a dealer in the network may be prepared to put in, but the regional organization, Land Rover Australia in this case, is still responsible for the delivery of fit for purpose repair work to your vehicle. He agreed that an item, like Defender, is designed for a purpose and should perform in accordance with that purpose.

Your vehicle has not travelled an immense distance in the time since new. You have an established relationship with your local dealer.

My tip - spend some time biting LRA on the leg. Start at the lowest and work your way up. Use the same principles as you did in the organization where you did your apprenticeship [wink11]

In the event that you really don't need such a hassle, particularly if local government objects, your alternative pursuit of a replacement long engine is entirely satisfactory. Just try to get the responsible people to pay for your hardware and installation.

Good luck.

Pete

[Shoogs]

We run Rangers with the 2.2 at my current location, out of 8, 7 are down with injector/turbo issues with all less than 45,000kms... apart from constant gearbox, CV's etc... arguably more interesting conditions, though its interesting to note of the previous models we have some with excess of 300,000kms...

Warranty claims don't exist here.

Hence moving back to Yotas with the 1HZ...

[ozrob]

The ACCC chairman had a few things to say about the automotive industry's delivery of service, particularly repairs, today. IIRC, he indicated that Oz consumer law protected us (end users) against this exact thing - washing hands because of, say, lack of dealer servicing. I can understand that such a circumstance could affect the quantum of GOODWILL that a dealer in the network may be prepared to put in, but the regional organization, Land Rover Australia in this case, is still responsible for the delivery of fit for purpose repair work to your vehicle. He agreed that an item, like Defender, is designed for a purpose and should perform in accordance with that purpose.

Your vehicle has not travelled an immense distance in the time since new. You have an established relationship with your local dealer.

My tip - spend some time biting LRA on the leg. Start at the lowest and work your way up. Use the same principles as you did in the organization where you did your apprenticeship [wink11]

In the event that you really don't need such a hassle, particularly if local government objects, your alternative pursuit of a replacement long engine is entirely satisfactory. Just try to get the responsible people to pay for your hardware and installation.

Good luck.

Pete

I sent this to LRA tonight,
Dear CRC,
Thank you for the attached letter,
Can you please advise why my claim was rejected on the basis of not having the vehicle serviced by a Land Rover dealer even though and the vehicle being out of warranty?
Under Australian Consumer Law, I do not have to have the vehicle serviced by a Land Rover Dealer.

Under Australian Consumer Law, I am also protected outside of the statutory warranty period for major failures for components within a reasonable time, as I stated previously.
Page 12 of the online service history and warranty benefits booklet supplied with my vehicle, it states that:
“Our goods come with guarantees that cannot be excluded under Australian Consumer Law, You are entitled to a replacement or refund for major failure and for compensation for any other reasonably foreseeable loss or damage.
Australian Consumer Law covers the consumer outside of the warranty period.
I would request again that my claim, be re-examined due to the Australian Consumer Law ACT and not so called “Good Will”

I have estimated that it will cost me $10K to get the motor replaced in Melbourne by Trans automotive, who will fit a new 2.2 Transit motor overseas import, R&R the sump, new injectors, and R & R the motor.
The problem with LRA...they just don't give a stuff when you have a major failure when the vehicle is out of warranty.

[LR V8]

Good luck with all this.... I hope it's a good outcome.

You may want check out the sump on that transit 2.2 .... I believe the Defender version is different to allow clearance from the front prop shaft.

Cheers.

[1nando]

Ford Duratorq- 2.2l TDCI (http://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053/)

They say that the over fueling issue in the 2.2 is not due to a faulty injector but rather the ecu programing.
I think all the cases of a blown 2.2 engine have been standard engines on standard tunes. I wonder if having a remap resolves this potential issue?
I would also argue that as the engine gets older in its life that the egr would more than likely start to affect sensors (making them dirty) like the air flow sensor etc and throw the computer programing out and leed to these over fueling situations, just a thought.

[rick130]

I met a Facilities manager for a large hotel group in Canberra recently that burnt a hole in a piston in his 3.2 BT50 from an injector overfueling a cylinder.

Mazda refused warranty as he'd serviced it, he got Fair Trading involved along with supplying his trade qualifications (he's a registered motor mechanic)
After some shenanications (offered half the cost, etc) Mazda finally came to the party.

[DiscoMick]

Ford Duratorq- 2.2l TDCI (http://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053/)

They say that the over fueling issue in the 2.2 is not due to a faulty injector but rather the ecu programing.
I think all the cases of a blown 2.2 engine have been standard engines on standard tunes. I wonder if having a remap resolves this potential issue?
I would also argue that as the engine gets older in its life that the egr would more than likely start to affect sensors (making them dirty) like the air flow sensor etc and throw the computer programing out and leed to these over fueling situations, just a thought.
Wouldn't a remap increase the overfuelling, or am I misunderstanding the effects of a remap?

[TimNZ]

I would say that would largely depend on the remap Mick, a "proper" remap from the likes of Alive or BAS is worlds apart from the plug in units in terms of safety for your engine.

Cheers,

[Dorian]

Ford Duratorq- 2.2l TDCI (http://engineengineering.co.uk/start/reconditioned-engines-rebuilt:298/ford-reconditioned-engines:330/ford-duratorq-22l-tdci:1053/)

They say that the over fueling issue in the 2.2 is not due to a faulty injector but rather the ecu programing.
I think all the cases of a blown 2.2 engine have been standard engines on standard tunes. I wonder if having a remap resolves this potential issue?
I would also argue that as the engine gets older in its life that the egr would more than likely start to affect sensors (making them dirty) like the air flow sensor etc and throw the computer programing out and leed to these over fueling situations, just a thought.

When I had damage to the fuel system (injectors and pump) from water, the fuel usage went from 10ish l/100 to 14ish l/100, this usage agreed with the fact that the pump couldn't pump enough fuel to keep the fuel pressure high enough. Based on my experience it was a faulty injector / injectors. I think what saved me from a similar fate was the fact that all of the injectors went, thus I got an engine fault. Although this doesn't disprove the ECU theory.

BTW the injectors / pump in the 2.2 are Seimens rather than Denso. Well at least mine are.

If I were looking at pushing LRA / ACCC, I'd be talking about the lack of sufficient filter / water trap / water alarm in the fuel system that leads to injector failure, that leads to ....

[1nando]

I would say that would largely depend on the remap Mick, a "proper" remap from the likes of Alive or BAS is worlds apart from the plug in units in terms of safety for your engine.

Cheers,I've real life egt results to back this up. I reckon my egts would be less than a standard tune puma whilst making more power not to mention better economy also.

[ozrob]

This is the response I got back from LRA, it appears now that they believe that any 3rd party who services your vehicle does or not or can not prove thart the vehicle has been serviced with LR requirements.
Beware that this is a cop out for LRA.

"Due to the nature of your comments, we have taken the opportunity to look into your case and do some research with Lennock Land Rover. The decision was taken on the fact despite the warranty was out, no service history was found though our network retailer which makes it hard to accede to Goodwill request.

Unfortunately we cannot confirm that all the services and repairs performed by a third party is conformed with Jaguar Land Rover requirements. With this lack of information, Jaguar Land Rover cannot take responsi bility even under warranty when major failure occurs as it is recommended to have the vehicle serviced by our approved retailer."

So basically if you get a 3rd party to service your vehicle and somthing goes wrong, it is up to you to prove that it has been serviced in accordance to LR specifications.

[rangieman]

That is very sad to hear mate.
Take on Rick130`s advice[wink11]
Best of luck dont give up and fight to the bitter end , What have you got to lose :soapbox:.

[cuppabillytea]

This is the response I got back from LRA, it appears now that they believe that any 3rd party who services your vehicle does or not or can not prove thart the vehicle has been serviced with LR requirements.
Beware that this is a cop out for LRA.

"Due to the nature of your comments, we have taken the opportunity to look into your case and do some research with Lennock Land Rover. The decision was taken on the fact despite the warranty was out, no service history was found though our network retailer which makes it hard to accede to Goodwill request.

Unfortunately we cannot confirm that all the services and repairs performed by a third party is conformed with Jaguar Land Rover requirements. With this lack of information, Jaguar Land Rover cannot take responsi bility even under warranty when major failure occurs as it is recommended to have the vehicle serviced by our approved retailer."

So basically if you get a 3rd party to service your vehicle and somthing goes wrong, it is up to you to prove that it has been serviced in accordance to LR specifications.

You need to consult a lawyer now. That is a cop out. If the servicing was done by a qualified licensed mechanic, they still have an obligation to stand by their product.
In my opinion they only use this cop out to keep independents out of the market.

[Marty90]

I agree with Billy. Of course they're going to deny responsibility. I would too. You need to consult a lawyer who specialises in consumer law and have him draft a letter of demand.

[ozrob]

LRA have taken no consideration that:

I have been a qualified mechanic for 30 years
Qualifed Land Rover Mechanic with the Army for 25 years
Have been a licenced mechanic which enables me to work in industry for 15 years

So i have some idea on what is required to service a bloody Defender......Cop out indeed....

[Pierre]

"...despite the warranty was out..." wtf?
JLR has to prove that whoever serviced the vehicle did not do it in light of JLR requirements - they are not the consumer. It's a no-brainer that your qualifications probably exceed the spanner twirlers in LR dealerships.
No relationship between you and the dealer? I think there is...warranty repairs and recalls have been done by dealer, not third party. And the dealer will have had something to say if there was any issue with the quality of maintenance.
JLR, btw, is not acceding to a goodwill request and fair enough. And nor have you asked for goodwill. That's not your beef.. an injector has failed and it should not have. None of the others have failed. It's a failure of the article to reasonably perform to an acceptable consumer standard, pure and simple.

JLR - FAIL

Grrrr..

Pete