Landcruiser & Caravan Rollover - Badly loaded ??

[DeeJay]

What happened here??

Trailer overturns in terrifying highway moment (http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/trailer-overturns-in-terrifying-highway-moment/vi-AAoP1XS?ocid=spartandhp)

[rangieman]

What happened here??

Trailer overturns in terrifying highway moment (http://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/trailer-overturns-in-terrifying-highway-moment/vi-AAoP1XS?ocid=spartandhp)
Ah the old wag the tail , Not nice at all to happen to you due mainly to incorrectly loaded[bigwhistle]

[Eevo]

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/722.jpg

[Tins]

Ah the old wag the tail , Not nice at all to happen to you due mainly to incorrectly loaded[bigwhistle]

Just reinforces my belief that people who tow need an endorsement.

[pop058]

Just reinforces my belief that people who tow need an endorsement.

Yep, and if you cannot back it, don't tow it.

[Tins]

Yep, and if you cannot back it, don't tow it.

X2.

[1nando]

Best thing to do in that situation is to actually accelerate.

[rangieman]

Just reinforces my belief that people who tow need an endorsement.
Totally agree[thumbsupbig]
But it will never happen[bighmmm]

[Tins]

Best thing to do in that situation is to actually accelerate.

That's the prevailing opinion, certainly. I would prefer to have user operated trailer brakes to pull the thing back into line. Whichever, it's another reason to have training and endorsements. It's amazing how many people think attaching more than three tonnes of van or boat to the back of their car won't change it's driving characteristics, truly amazing.

[Tins]

Totally agree[thumbsupbig]
But it will never happen[bighmmm]

Probably not, Chris. I also think the things should go over weighbridges same as trucks. That won't happen either.

[1nando]

Everyone can hold a license but not everyone is capable of driving. Common sense aint so common

[1nando]

Ive had people in vehicles towing similar sized caravans pass me in my fully loaded 110 at more than 110kmph with their familes in the car and my family in my car and me thinking how negligent this is on behalf of the person driving. To put so many people at possible risk becuase of their stupidty. In saying that i dont feel for these people when they horrifically crash as a result of their stupidity

[weeds]

Ive had people in vehicles towing similar sized caravans pass me in my fully loaded 110 at more than 110kmph with their familes in the car and my family in my car and me thinking how negligent this is on behalf of the person driving. To put so many people at possible risk becuase of their stupidty. In saying that i dont feel for these people when they horrifically crash as a result of their stupidity

But if we don't travel at the speed limit everybody gets cranky......

Either way no reason why you cannot 100, 60t trucks are allowed.

[bemm52]

Probably not, Chris. I also think the things should go over weighbridges same as trucks. That won't happen either.

There was a blitz on the Princes Highway on our local bit with caravans being weighed and vehicle tow capacities matched not long ago.

According to the local rag it was more of an education thing this time, with quiet a few being warned their rigs were to heavy for tow vehicle or exceeding manufacturers load limits

Cheers Paul

[weeds]

Don't realize it was in America.....

Driver could have fell asleep, had a medical issue

[1nando]

Your missing the point or i wasnt being clear. If im sitting on 110kmph in the left lane doung the legal speed limit and im being passed by a pajero for example with a 2 ton plus caravan on the back then something is wrong. Its potentially putting me and my family in harms way as a result of their stupidity.
This is where a lot of problems arrise. They speed up, as they spped up they're changing lanes and as speed builds and they pass they then start pulling back into the left lane. Its at this point that everyone behind that vehicle is at risk. Depending on the drivers ability to merge gradually without backing off the accelerator. They need to keep their speed up and merge gradually amd once in a straight line then they can slowy reduce speed.

[weeds]

There was a blitz on the Princes Highway on our local bit with caravans being weighed and vehicle tow capacities matched not long ago.

According to the local rag it was more of an education thing this time, with quiet a few being warned their rigs were to heavy for tow vehicle or exceeding manufacturers load limits

Cheers Paul

Pretty sure I started a thread on the education that was organized by a policeman and industry experts.

I weigh my combination ls regularly...helps when you have a weigh bridge at work....touring in the hi-lux Struggled staying under rear axle weight and GVM for the lux, trailer was always within limits.

[weeds]

There was a blitz on the Princes Highway on our local bit with caravans being weighed and vehicle tow capacities matched not long ago.

According to the local rag it was more of an education thing this time, with quiet a few being warned their rigs were to heavy for tow vehicle or exceeding manufacturers load limits

Cheers Paul

Here is the thread https://www.aulro.com/afvb/trailers-vans-and-campers/245187-have-you-weighed-you-caravan-lately.html some useful info throughout the thread.

[Milton477]

For a minute there I thought I was in a caravan forum. Oh no! [bigwhistle]

[Mick_Marsh]

But if we don't travel at the speed limit everybody gets cranky......
When I'm not driving at the speed limit, I don't get cranky. I'm happy because I'm enjoying taking the Perentie for an outing.

[Tins]

60t trucks are allowed.

60t trucks are designed for it. They have no other purpose. Their drivers are tested and licenced for it. Far cry from some fella who drives to the station everyday, and then at Easter loads up his car and van with absolutely no idea of what's needed, and then hitting the highway at 120 km/h, simply because he can afford it.

[weeds]

60t trucks are designed for it. They have no other purpose. Their drivers are tested and licenced for it. Far cry from some fella who drives to the station everyday, and then at Easter loads up his car and van with absolutely no idea of what's needed, and then hitting the highway at 120 km/h, simply because he can afford it.

Cars are designed for it as well........pretty sure I have seen some average truck driving.

I don't think affordability has anything to do with it.

Not many places you can do 120km/hr legally.

I do a lot of miles for work and pass many caravans......the majority seem to get along just fine (excluding weights as it's impossible to tell when overtaking them), I don't think there is much wrong with the system apart from education.

[DiscoMick]

The driver seemed to go right and then swing back left.
I wonder if trailer anti-sway control would have helped.

[Tins]

Pretty sure I started a thread on the education that was organized by a policeman and industry experts.

I weigh my combination ls regularly...helps when you have a weigh bridge at work....touring in the hi-lux Struggled staying under rear axle weight and GVM for the lux, trailer was always within limits.

Trouble is, the axle groupings common to trailers and vans are close together. Harder to tell when a load is uneven. Overall weight, plus downward ( hopefully ) mass on the tow ball are the best you can do.

The greatest factor in all this, as I see it, is the totally compromised hitch setup created by fitting a tow bar at the very rear of the tow vehicle, and the very front of the vehicle being towed, coupled with the ignorance of some of the drivers ( I don't blame them, I blame the system). I know, we can't all have Dodge Rams with a fifth wheel setup, but that just makes it more important to set the thing up properly.

Just so that nobody thinks that I believe I'm perfect; I once put a car on a car trailer, and was towing it to a wrecker. It had no engine or gearbox, and was thus reasonably balanced. It also had no dampers in it. On the way, it developed a sway just like that in this vid, compounded by the bounce set up by the undamped springs. My stupidity put both cars, the trailer, my wife and me over an embankment. I was about 30 at the time. It was then that I learned that I didn't, in fact, know everything.

[Tins]

The driver seemed to go right and then swing back left.
I wonder if trailer anti-sway control would have helped.

Maybe, maybe not. There is now far too much reliance on tech, IMO.

[Tins]

Cars are designed for it as well........

No, they are not. Cars are compromised because they have to do EVERYTHING. Ever heard the expression, "Jack of all trades, master of none"? Whacking 3 or more tonne of van or boat on the back of a 2 tonne car via a tow ball, with nobody having a clue how to load or the consequences of that ignorance is a recipe for disaster.



pretty sure I have seen some average truck driving.

Strawman. Weak argument. Of course you have, but it is utterly irrelevant. Truck drivers are very heavily policed, for how they drive, and how they load.


I don't think affordability has anything to do with it.

Really? Check out the rig that rolled in that vid. I know for sure that I couldn't afford it. However, I'll concede you that one rather than dwell on it.


Not many places you can do 120km/hr legally.

I guessed you missed the comments re being overtaken when sitting on the speed limit that have been posted. Legality is irrelevant as well.


I I don't think there is much wrong with the system apart from education.

Which is precisely my point. Nobody educates a car driver about towing. You have a Licence. You are free to hook a bloody great boat or van up to your car and off you go. Glad we agree on that.

[weeds]

No, they are not. Cars are compromised because they have to do EVERYTHING. Ever heard the expression, "Jack of all trades, master of none"? Whacking 3 or more tonne of van or boat on the back of a 2 tonne car via a tow ball, with nobody having a clue how to load or the consequences of that ignorance is a recipe for disaster.




Strawman. Weak argument. Of course you have, but it is utterly irrelevant. Truck drivers are very heavily policed, for how they drive, and how they load.



Really? Check out the rig that rolled in that vid. I know for sure that I couldn't afford it. However, I'll concede you that one rather than dwell on it.



I guessed you missed the comments re being overtaken when sitting on the speed limit that have been posted. Legality is irrelevant as well.



Which is precisely my point. Nobody educates a car driver about towing. You have a Licence. You are free to hook a bloody great boat or van up to your car and off you go. Glad we agree on that.

Should I tell work i can no longer tow our trailers.....although it's only 2T with override brakes and I sit on the speed limit even the 110 zones. The next one will be bigger and heavier.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/723.jpg

[V8Ian]

A truck (prime mover) is designed to travel safely with 22.5 tonne at the rear and 6 tonne on the steer. Those weights don't change even if the gvm is 45 tonne or 120 tonne. The design is compromised when the truck is driven without a trailer(s), but still within the design limitations, driven with extra care. A truck driver is trained and qualified in increments.
A car, conversely, is compromised with a trailer attached. A car driver is handed a licence after performing a reverse park and hill start in a Toyota Echo, then legally allowed to hitch a four tonne van to a three tonne 4x4 and head off into the wild blue yonder.
I'm not anti 'van, like cyclists, 99% of them do the right thing to the best of their ability.

[V8Ian]

Should I tell work i can no longer tow our trailers.....although it's only 2T with override brakes and I sit on the speed limit even the 110 zones. The next one will be bigger and heavier.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/723.jpg
Probably a bit late, you're no doubt competent now. The point being made is that a newly licenced driver is legally entitled to tow a heavy outfit without further training.

[Hall]

This thread reminds me of my brother and brother in law. Both are a good deal older than I and are retired. Both have heavy vehicle experience. Brother in law has been towing vans for a long time before he retired. They where discussing there caravan set up re towing. Both have level rides. Both have had there caravans weighed empty and loaded to see where the weight should be to the last kilo. They where like two old fisher men discussing fishing. Discussing the finer points of weight distribution and how much weight should be biased to the to ball, how much the van should slightly lean to the front, where to put consumable weight like water so when it is used it wont up set the balance etc. Brother has only recently got his caravan and took it for test trip to see how it road handles and then make adjustments and check again. Just wish there was more people like this. There should be a road safety ad campaign with some thing like what they did. Show a average clueless couple and the potential results then show some blokes doing what my brother and brother in law where doing. My not make much difference, but if it made at least one person stop and take notice it would be a good thing.
Cheers Hall

[JDNSW]

I'm afraid that I have difficulty with the concept of requiring special education and licencing for every change in conditions. This one is for towing trailers. I do not know the statistics, but I rather doubt that accidents involving trailers (where the fact there was a trailer had anything to do with it) are a rather small fraction of total accidents. Partly simply because most incompetent trailer drivers just don't do much of it. And most trailer drivers do do an adequate job, as shown by the fact that these accidents are rare.

If you are going to require special licencing for towing, why not for many of the other circumstances where the conditions differ from the car and conditions you learnt in? Some rather higher than trailers on the list might include rural driving for city dwellers or city driving for rural dwellers, driving in remote areas, driving without ABS, driving with ABS, and of course, the old faithful one of a four wheel drive licence!

There are a number of reasons why none of these are ever likely to happen, including the limits they would place on youth employment, and the backlash from voters like myself - who has been towing trailers for over fifty years - and the only accident I have ever had involving a trailer was when an idiot (phone user I think) ran into the back of my trailer while I was stationary, waiting to turn right, and had been for some time.

And if education and licencing does not prevent new drivers from having accidents while drunk and way over the speed limit, when both zero alcohol and speed limits have been a major part of the education, why do you think it would work for trailers?

[DiscoMick]

I guess one easily managed towing rule would be to enforce the advice that a towball weight must be about 10 percent of the trailer weight. I know it's not a perfect guide, but it could be easily checked by a weighing station. Requiring trailer registration to include such a test could expose the worst cases and educate people.
Another easy test would be to use a level to ensure a towing vehicle is not down at the bum.
We have random breath testing so why not random trailer testing? It could be done using the truck testing stations on major highways, which seem to sit unused most of the time anyway.
Another measure could be to make anti-sway compulsory on caravans, as it is now on many new vehicles. Jayco already offers anti-sway.
What do you think?

[bee utey]

Best thing to do in that situation is to actually accelerate.

That would have to be most useless theory ever. If for some reason you get into trailer sway when travelling downhill towards an intersection, accelerating is certain tragedy.The only thing to do is stamp on the brake pedal repeatedly at the exact moments when the sway is just starting to return to centre. That technique washes speed off quickly while counteracting the sway as it's happening, but your timing had better be good. It's saved my bacon a couple of times on my poorly thought out youthful towing trips with over ride brakes.

[Tins]

Should I tell work i can no longer tow our trailers.....although it's only 2T with override brakes and I sit on the speed limit even the 110 zones. The next one will be bigger and heavier.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/723.jpg

Can't see the point of this post. Do you think you are capable of towing this trailer? Do you think the car/van/whatever is capable of towing it? Do you think we should accept your decision on these questions, when our lives depend on YOUR choice? Nobody accepts MY ability to drive something out of the ordinary, but I should accept yours?
I have always enjoyed your posts, weeds. I think that you are probably, based on what I've read, a smart operator who can do many things. This makes ME an idiot. Some bloke I met on a forum? How stupid is that??

[Tins]

And most trailer drivers do do an adequate job, as shown by the fact that these accidents are rare.


Rare? How much time do you spend on, say, the Newell? At school holiday time? It happens with monotonous regularity, John. People sometimes lose their lives. You and I grew up when you had to be able to cope with whatever it was. Road toll was bad then, too.



If you are going to require special licencing for towing, why not for many of the other circumstances where the conditions differ from the car and conditions you learnt in?



I'm on record here calling for exactly that. Had an exchange with you about it then as well. I don't mind having it again. Get a licence for what you want to do. If driving to the shops is what you want, fine, get a licence for that. Should be cheap. Want to drive from say Shepparton to Deniliquin, another licence endorsement. Want to drive from Shepparton to Melbourne, using the M80 Ring Road onto the Tulla freeway, onto the Monash Freeway through the tunnel, at least another endorsement. Every part of that last trip I described should make you think. When did you last do it? I know that you have been around, and that you could do it, but when did you? Would you be happy if you're newly licenced, in whatever part of rural NSW you live in, granddaughter set off to drive into Melbourne tomorrow? I have seen fully grown adults weeping because they couldn't cope. Getting a Licence in, say, Finley does not set you up to deal with the M80. Nor the M5/M7 for that matter. The days of heading out and seeing are long gone, unfortunately. You did it. I did it. But times have changed.

[Mick_Marsh]

Should I tell work i can no longer tow our trailers.....although it's only 2T with override brakes and I sit on the speed limit even the 110 zones. The next one will be bigger and heavier.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/723.jpg
Yep. Either that or trade in your Hyundai i30 for a bigger vehicle.

Interestingly, my Commodore, with the heavy duty tow kit, is only rated to tow about 1600kg. I think the Ford Territory is the same.
I find it surprising how little family cars are rated to tow nowdays. You need to get a small truck to tow anything descent.

[Tins]

That would have to be most useless theory ever. If for some reason you get into trailer sway when travelling downhill towards an intersection, accelerating is certain tragedy.The only thing to do is stamp on the brake pedal repeatedly at the exact moments when the sway is just starting to return to centre. That technique washes speed off quickly while counteracting the sway as it's happening, but your timing had better be good. It's saved my bacon a couple of times on my poorly thought out youthful towing trips with over ride brakes.

This theory is exactly why I wound up over the embankment. Control lost. Go faster. Control lost even more, only now going faster. Not sure if I would have had the balls to try your way, bee utey, but I never had the time, so I will never know. Makes sense, though.

[Tins]

You need to get a small truck to tow anything descent.

Might be a reason for that, MM.

[Tins]

I guess one easily managed towing rule would be to enforce the advice that a towball weight must be about 10 percent of the trailer weight. I know it's not a perfect guide, but it could be easily checked by a weighing station. Requiring trailer registration to include such a test could expose the worst cases and educate people.
Another easy test would be to use a level to ensure a towing vehicle is not down at the bum.
We have random breath testing so why not random trailer testing? It could be done using the truck testing stations on major highways, which seem to sit unused most of the time anyway.
Another measure could be to make anti-sway compulsory on caravans, as it is now on many new vehicles. Jayco already offers anti-sway.
What do you think?

Us truck drivers accept that we have to deal with the weighbridge stuff. After all, it is written into our Test. Imagine the outcry if the average punter had to comply as well. All the Current Affair sooks would be screaming about their rights, never mind the fact that they were screaming about the truck driver the show had set up the night before. Couldn't possibly be about them, could it?

Time for people to accept their responsibilities, IMO. Time to stop blaming everybody else. Time for user pays.

[pop058]

I guess one easily managed towing rule would be to enforce the advice that a towball weight must be about 10 percent of the trailer weight. I know it's not a perfect guide, but it could be easily checked by a weighing station. Requiring trailer registration to include such a test could expose the worst cases and educate people.
Another easy test would be to use a level to ensure a towing vehicle is not down at the bum.
We have random breath testing so why not random trailer testing? It could be done using the truck testing stations on major highways, which seem to sit unused most of the time anyway.
Another measure could be to make anti-sway compulsory on caravans, as it is now on many new vehicles. Jayco already offers anti-sway.
What do you think?

Not all advice is good and IMHO, the 10% rule is a one of the not so good ones. I only have and M.R. license so cannot comment on the big stuff but I have only ever had 150 (max) ball weight on a dual axle trailer. I have towed cars up and down the east coast, even Sydney - Darwin rtn a few times. Nan & I have a 20' van and I move a 2T scissor lift around on my car trailer nearly on a daily basis. Always loaded correctly and never had the tail wagging the dog, ever and, as stated earlier, if you cannot reverse the jigger (preferably with mirrors) then don't tow the bloody thing.

[Wraithe]

Heading for Perth, down Albany highway, between Bannister and top of Bedfordale hill, near the S bends where the old Coachstop ruins are... Caravan and 4wd upside down, mum and dad and 3 kids in back seat... All brand new, never towed before, loaded everything including kitchen sink, now upside down and spread over 100 metres down the centre of the highway... On ly good thing to happen, no one hurt...

Cars could get past but me and another 20 compardreys stuck for about 4 hours... Drank a few cups of tea waiting...

Seen quite a few trailer towing incidents whilst on the roads, not always a lack of experience, sometimes stupidity is the cause even with experienced nig nogs...

Somebody quoted tonnages on axles with trucks and GVM... WA rules without Extra Mass permit, 6.00 t with standard 22.5 tyres, 6.50 t with 295 and 6.70 t with super singles...
22.5 t for the prime mover take 6 leaves 16.5 t over drives...

Extra mass permit increases drive to 17.5 t and a fups bar increase .2 I think(never had one so not sure for FUPS)...

Our bogie dollies with Extra Mass is also 17.5...

Tri combo's are different again, standard 20 t, level 1 = 21.5, level 2 = 22.5 and level 3 = 23.5... Thus the truck pic I have for my Avatar is single steer and all tri groups... I could load to 53 tonne on the lead trailer and 47 tonne on the dog....

Going into Perth with that weight is fun with car drivers, a real pleasure having to avoid situations that shouldnt happen and cars trying to push me out of the way or abusing me because I needed most of the road to turn off welshpool road onto railway parade in Bentley(look on google earth, west on welshpool, left into railway parade while crossing railway line)...

Anyway, back to the vans... Truck drivers stage up with there licenses, ie car but no truck until no P plate, then LR, MR or HR(thats no trailer on any) then you can go for HC or even MC... ( I have issues with a HR licensed driver going for MC)...

That may sound like a complex way to get your license, but there is no requirement for you to show experience to get a higher class license, just waiting time and ability to drive... For a MC license, you need to be able to reverse a B-double 75 metres.. sounds hard for some but believe me, b-doubles are easy... What annoys the crap out of me is drivers get an MC then jump into roadtrains like an expert and start telling others how good they are...

Our licensing laws for truck drivers changed around 2000, they where meant to improve the industry and standardise it... All its done is shove out the old school drivers and bring more steering wheel attendants online... Drug usage is probably still the same(not a lot use but its there still)... As for improving the skill on the road, not much has changed, still a lot who cant reverse to save themselves and still a lot of experts with no experience...

Now if you want to change laws in regards to towing ie towing endorsement or the like, take note, it didnt improve truck drivers... I have seen drivers take off from roadtrain assembly areas and leave half of what was behind them, in the middle of the road(and thats happened within 500 metres of the assembly area)...


PS, I was turned down for working for a big company because I dont use the word Linehaul(its American for long distance) and I didnt have a resume... Funny because the bloke that put my name up, I taught truck driving to, over 20 years ago... Go figure hey...

There are lots of thoughts about stopping swaying, if it gets back under control, well done, but dont say you can control it by speeding up, stabbing brakes etc, if you have electric brakes then put them on, all the way if you have to and accelerate at the same time... at the end of the day, once it starts swaying your out of control! If you regain control, well done...

This is also the same way you can stop a jack knife situation with a semi, hit the trailer brakes then use the accelerator and it will straighten up... I have had these situations a few times over the last 30 years and it scares the bejesus out of me... Even slid a primemover and tipper side ways for about 200 metres(too much wet clay on a downhill slope and too much speed on my part)...

Are we all experts, NAH just more nuts behind the wheel hoping to get from A to B as safe and stupidly as we can... Anyway I'll climb back into my box now...

[1nando]

That would have to be most useless theory ever. If for some reason you get into trailer sway when travelling downhill towards an intersection, accelerating is certain tragedy.The only thing to do is stamp on the brake pedal repeatedly at the exact moments when the sway is just starting to return to centre. That technique washes speed off quickly while counteracting the sway as it's happening, but your timing had better be good. It's saved my bacon a couple of times on my poorly thought out youthful towing trips with over ride brakes.The example you use of a down hill slope and coming up to a intersection is a rare one as i as a professional driver would have washed off most of my speed before starting to descend.
The problem lays in what you just said, you dont have the knowledge or the set of skills required to be towing. Anyone of my tuck and dog drivers will tell you that if the dog trailer starts dancing accelerating IS ONE of the tools you can use to bring it back centre. The best tool of all is being alert amd stopping it before it happens.

Its probably why they do 12 hrs driving per day, 5 days per week, and we've never had an accident. They know how to drive but more importantly have the skillset required for what they do

[DiscoMick]

If it starts swaying I'd be more inclined to brake than accelerate. Going faster would just get you into trouble faster, wouldn't it?
Of course, I'm not a truck driver and only tow a camper.

[weeds]

Probably a bit late, you're no doubt competent now. The point being made is that a newly licenced driver is legally entitled to tow a heavy outfit without further training.

How do you know I'm competent?? Given some of the posters comments i would fal into the category of what's he doing on the road, I shouldn't be towing, not aware of weight and setup, just got his license, never towed a trailer before, has no idea,no experience, he only has a car license, can he reverse a trailer.


I don't see many 18yo (newly licensed) having the cash to buy a 3T caravan or boat, see younger ones with camper trailer and smaller boats.......I would say most caravan owners have been driving for quite some time.

Strangely our company doesn't do VOC on driving or towing.......although I try and advise who should and should tow these trailers but....anyway when somebody asked what to you mean by overrun brakes I figured I should spend some time with them giving them a heads up

[weeds]

Can't see the point of this post. Do you think you are capable of towing this trailer? Do you think the car/van/whatever is capable of towing it? Do you think we should accept your decision on these questions, when our lives depend on YOUR choice? Nobody accepts MY ability to drive something out of the ordinary, but I should accept yours?
I have always enjoyed your posts, weeds. I think that you are probably, based on what I've read, a smart operator who can do many things. This makes ME an idiot. Some bloke I met on a forum? How stupid is that??

I don't really see the point of your post either......just pointing out that you paint us all with the same brush.

If you don't accept my or other drivers decisions on towing than I'm unsure how we can get round that.

One of the most dangerous thing we all do is hop behind the wheel.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

That's the prevailing opinion, certainly. I would prefer to have user operated trailer brakes to pull the thing back into line. Whichever, it's another reason to have training and endorsements. It's amazing how many people think attaching more than three tonnes of van or boat to the back of their car won't change it's driving characteristics, truly amazing.

I'm not sure we have an option in Australia,, dont all brake controllers (in OZ) have a manual overide function?

I find it amazing people square off against caravan owners just because they see an accident involving one,, (from another country!!!) and AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME driver error,,

just plain old vanilla car drivers NEVER EVER **** up,,,

Dash Cam Owners Australia
- YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/DashCamOwnersAustral)

[PAT303]

I've been living and working in outback Oz for the last ten years, I've just come back from a month up North and nothing changes year from year,the roads are choked with grey nomads driving seriously overloaded vehicles doing 80,with a line of vehicles stuck behind them. In the last 4 weeks 6 retiree's were admitted with serious medical issue's requiring them to be flown back to Perth, these's are people who have spent the previous weeks behind the wheel of combinations that weigh over 6T, is that safe?. Talking to their wives most have only just bought their rigs, so they have gone from a 1400kg Camry to a 6.5T comination with zero experience, again are they competent to drive?. I also have an issue with GVM upgrades, if a 200 series can safely handle 3800kg why does it need an upgrade?, they cannot be sold in Europe because they do not meet the minimal safety standard in regards to braking but over here they can have their payload increased 500kg with no brake upgrade, one company is offering a 4000kg upgrade still from what I know without a brake upgrade, they cannot pass at standard wieght be we are making them heavier. If your look at the D4 it can pass everything, but it gets rubbished for having larger rims allowing the fitment of bigger brakes and has sway control from the factory but the wobblies won't buy it, instead they do GVM upgrades combined with WDH's. From my experience I feel that many people are against supplementary license's for the simple reason that they won't pass the test if required. Pat

[SBD4]

Don't realize it was in America.....

Driver could have fell asleep, had a medical issue
The wash from the overtaking "SUV" seems to have been the catalyst. You can see as it overtakes the van, the pressure seems to push the van away and then sucks it back as the pass is completed. From there the driver over corrects, exacerbating the sway.

I agree with John(JDNSW) that licensing for all this is not the answer. The administration of such as system would be expensive and bureaucratic. Proper policing of setups as per DMs suggestion is a more practical approach which seems to be on the cards anyway as per the post some time ago about a Vic copper running an "education program" for caravaners et al (you posted that didn't you Weeds?).

PS if they were towing with a D4 the event would likely have been avoided due to its "Trailer Stability Control" feature:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4vfcX_BrU

[V8Ian]

John, if an endorsement for towing ever got traction, it would not effect you.
Licences in Queensland used to be classed -
A_Car.
B_Motor Cycle.
C_Rigid Truck.
D_Any Omnibus.
E_Any Articulated Vehicle.
Other states had a numeric system but nationally the classes aligned.

Sometime in the eighties Queensland introduced E6, that became Road Train. Anybody who could provide evidence of experience was upgraded. My proof was the rego papers for my prime mover.
Existing licenced car drivers would be granted similar, if not automatic rights to tow a trailer.
I don't believe small, box trailers need an endorsement.

As an interesting aside, shortly after introducing the class E6, Queensland initiated an E4 for a B Double. At the time every class a driver was eligible to drive had to be listed in the licence.
Mine was thus-
A
B
C
D
E : E6

For three years QT refused to issue me with an E4 as I hadn't been trained to drive a B Double. I was qualified to drive a 50 metre long vehicle with five articulation points, weighing 90 tonnes but not an 18 metre long vehicle weighing 55 tonne with two articulation points.
Three years later licences were standardised, nationally. E4 and E6 were combined under the new classification Multi-combination (MC) with the only recognised training done at Mt, Cotton (Q) and Shepperton (V). That training was B Double focused yet graduates were qualified to drive triple Road Trains. Heaven only knows how many newbies got out in the back blocks and tipped the last trailer over due to inexperience.

[V8Ian]

Dash Cam Owners Australia
- YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/DashCamOwnersAustral)
They've already lost their caravans. [wink11]

[Eevo]

I agree with John(JDNSW) that licensing for all this is not the answer. The administration of such as system would be expensive and bureaucratic. Proper policing of setups as per DMs suggestion is a more practical approach which seems to be on the cards anyway as per the post some time ago about a Vic copper running an "education program" for caravaners et al (you posted that didn't you Weeds?).
[/video]

i dont agree.
education through licencing is more effective than education thought enforcement.

[V8Ian]

I'm not sure we have an option in Australia,, dont all brake controllers (in OZ) have a manual overide function?


They do, but they are useless. Trucks (real ones) have a foot long trailer brake lever ergonomically mounted on the steering column, allowing controlled, progressive trailer braking. Girly trucks have a dash mounted lever to serve the same purpose but lacking the finesse of the previous mentioned. Cars have a slide that operated over 1 1/2 - 2", mounted awkwardly under the dash, that is for all intents and purposes, on or off. When we got the A'Van I searched for a unit that could be operated with a reasonable degree of control, nothing came close.

[V8Ian]

i dont agree.
education through licencing is more effective than education thought enforcement.
Or incident.

[DiscoMick]

I think when first registering a caravan over a certain size which has been purchased the person should be required to do a one-day workshop and/or online course on basic towing safety (similar to the boating workshops required as part of getting a boat licence) or demonstrate they have prior experience (RPL) within a reasonable time period.
Issues such as the suitability of the towing vehicle, loading, backing and emergency control should be covered. For example, demonstrate you are competent to back that caravan into that space. Weigh that caravan and check the towball weight.
We have online courses for getting a licence, first aid and workplace health and safety, so why not for towing?
This would be basic education. I have seen a lot of vans being towed by vehicles which appear to be to be inadequate to do the job. For example, last weekend I saw a RAV4 towing a dual axle caravan. The owners probably thought they were OK. I thought it was dangerous, particularly since the Toyota's bum was way down near the road. I would have been cautious about towing the van because of its size, even though my Defender is an excellent tow vehicle and even has rear airbags, so a RAV4 was definitely not up to the job, I thought.

I also think there should be close study of whether anti-sway should be mandatory on caravans over a certain size.

[Wraithe]

Mick, in relation to sway bars, they should be mandatory... What you asked about braking when swaying, the answer no, accelerate takes the control from the trailer to the towing vehicle and will give you steerage...

One of the things that hasn't been pointed out, swaying is the effect of the trailer steering the towing vehicle.. once the trailer starts pushing it takes control thus it will steer the rear of the towing vehicle... Only way to stop it properly is to introduce drag on the trailer thus allowing the towing vehicle to regain control... Ian pointed out there is no brake controller out there that is close to what we have in trucks, thats true but electrics is probably the closest to the hand controller on a truck, but how many know how to use one properly...

Ian, one thing you didnt point out, most truck have the centre of the hitch forward of the drive axle centre, anywhere from 2 inch to 12 inch on bogies and more for tri- drives... The exception is car carriers or setups similar to them where the hitch is behind the drives, this also is driven differently to a standard setup prime mover as anyone who has carted cars with this arrangement will tell you, its different to drive... In relation to a prime mover, you would know that in paddock work where you need traction and no pushing of the prime mover by the trailers, you set the centre of the pin only 2 inch's forward of the drive, thus you have full control of steerage and max weight on drive... If you set it 9 inch forward you get good weight distribution but its a pig in soft ground and any weight pushing will steer the truck some and help you get stuck...

One point also missed is that caravans are larger than towing vehicles(unless your like some of the ex truckies I know that went caravaning, 3 to 5 tonne dodges and the likes, workshop on the tray and van to keep the miss's happy).. you have a big box, wider than the vehicle towing it, and huge sail area on either side, vehicle in front with soft suspension and no ability to stabilise such a large force behind and the hitch behind the axle... Good recipe for a problem... Chuck sway bars on, and if not set properly, a waste of money... Weight distribution is another problem and any trucky should know this as it applies to every load we cart... Single axle vans have a mind of there own and dual axle can be a greater issue if too much weight is off the hitch...

In reality, it dont matter what you tow, if you dont set it up properly, have a bit of experience and show a lot of caution, then someone is going to get hurt....education doesnt give you experience that only comes from doing the job you want achieve... So start with a smaller van and work your way up, nop license change, no courses, just a lot of time and caution will keep you safe... Pity we cant get everyone to be like that but start some where, even here will do...

[Wraithe]

They do, but they are useless. Trucks (real ones) have a foot long trailer brake lever ergonomically mounted on the steering column, allowing controlled, progressive trailer braking. Girly trucks have a dash mounted lever to serve the same purpose but lacking the finesse of the previous mentioned.

I have to agree, the volvo dash mounted trailer brakes are stupid, left hand side of steering... I drove one a few years back, couldnt wait to get out of the cab.. Was also my first and last auto truck I drove... Trip up took 5 hours in auto mode, while having a cuppa after swapping trailers, I read the manual(something I never do normally), drove home in manual mode, took under 3 hours, about the same amount of time the old freightliner does(old tin cab)... Now if we could get a system for cars that bolts to the steering column, just like a truck, then that would help a lot of people...

[DiscoMick]

Mick, in relation to sway bars, they should be mandatory... What you asked about braking when swaying, the answer no, accelerate takes the control from the trailer to the towing vehicle and will give you steerage...

One of the things that hasn't been pointed out, swaying is the effect of the trailer steering the towing vehicle.. once the trailer starts pushing it takes control thus it will steer the rear of the towing vehicle... Only way to stop it properly is to introduce drag on the trailer thus allowing the towing vehicle to regain control... Ian pointed out there is no brake controller out there that is close to what we have in trucks, thats true but electrics is probably the closest to the hand controller on a truck, but how many know how to use one properly...

Ian, one thing you didnt point out, most truck have the centre of the hitch forward of the drive axle centre, anywhere from 2 inch to 12 inch on bogies and more for tri- drives... The exception is car carriers or setups similar to them where the hitch is behind the drives, this also is driven differently to a standard setup prime mover as anyone who has carted cars with this arrangement will tell you, its different to drive... In relation to a prime mover, you would know that in paddock work where you need traction and no pushing of the prime mover by the trailers, you set the centre of the pin only 2 inch's forward of the drive, thus you have full control of steerage and max weight on drive... If you set it 9 inch forward you get good weight distribution but its a pig in soft ground and any weight pushing will steer the truck some and help you get stuck...

One point also missed is that caravans are larger than towing vehicles(unless your like some of the ex truckies I know that went caravaning, 3 to 5 tonne dodges and the likes, workshop on the tray and van to keep the miss's happy).. you have a big box, wider than the vehicle towing it, and huge sail area on either side, vehicle in front with soft suspension and no ability to stabilise such a large force behind and the hitch behind the axle... Good recipe for a problem... Chuck sway bars on, and if not set properly, a waste of money... Weight distribution is another problem and any trucky should know this as it applies to every load we cart... Single axle vans have a mind of there own and dual axle can be a greater issue if too much weight is off the hitch...

In reality, it dont matter what you tow, if you dont set it up properly, have a bit of experience and show a lot of caution, then someone is going to get hurt....education doesnt give you experience that only comes from doing the job you want achieve... So start with a smaller van and work your way up, nop license change, no courses, just a lot of time and caution will keep you safe... Pity we cant get everyone to be like that but start some where, even here will do...

Thanks for that. A non-trucker's question: If the caravan has brakes, then wouldn't braking the towing vehicle and also the caravan stabilise the caravan to reduce the swaying about?

[Wraithe]

Thanks for that. A non-trucker's question: If the caravan has brakes, then wouldn't braking the towing vehicle and also the caravan stabilise the caravan to reduce the swaying about?

Only if you have the electric brakes set to a point where it is producing more braking than the towing vehicle... You have to create pulling apart pressure on the hitch so the trailer is not pushing in any way.... Its this pushing action that allows the trailer to steer the towing vehicle...

PS override brakes only apply when braking pressure is applied to the hitch, thus the trailing braking is less than the vehicle towing... Pretty rare to get them to drag the towing vehicle to a halt, and if it does, then there is something wrong... I have that system on my horse float, its ok but then I rebuilt my float and set it up, only problem is if I needed to stop quickly, it wont...(helps to keep the horses standing rather than in the front with me...)

[DiscoMick]

Only if you have the electric brakes set to a point where it is producing more braking than the towing vehicle... You have to create pulling apart pressure on the hitch so the trailer is not pushing in any way.... Its this pushing action that allows the trailer to steer the towing vehicle...

My controller is set so the camper trailer and vehicle are braking about the same. So wouldn't braking mean they would both come to move at the same speed?
Actually, I should explain the Tekonsha P6 has a display which shows increasing braking effort from 1-5, so the harder I push it the harder the trailer brakes. If I bang the brakes really hard I can lock up the trailer wheels before the Defender. I assumed that steady braking, not over-reacting, would have settled the whole situation down, but I haven't experienced that situation in a truck.
Yes, I know a camper trailer is a lot lighter (about 1300 kg) than a caravan or big trailer. I also know a Defender is a lot more stable than many other vehicles.

[bblaze]

If you apply a light tough to you vehicle brakes it activates the van brakes prior to vehicle brakes because they activate off the brake light circuit.
Most people towing vans/heavy trailers get into trouble because of panic and over reacting.
cheers
blaze

[Wraithe]

My controller is set so the camper trailer and vehicle are braking about the same. So wouldn't braking mean they would both come to move at the same speed?
Yes, I know a camper trailer is a lot lighter (about 1300 kg) than a caravan or big trailer.

The idea of applying brakes to the trailer and not the towing vehicle, is to straighten the hitch point out and to do that you need the trailer dragging against the hitch...

Best description of this is when I had some goose wet a clay rump that I was using to enter a pit.... As there is a slight curve, my trailer decided to over take me and jack-knife... I applied full trailer brakes and full throttle at same time, this put me into a controlled slide as a single unit rather than a trailer just swinging behind trying to send me where-ever... I was able to steer and control that whole vehicle until I stopped, quite safely...(Mind you, I did get called Brockie for the rest of the day)... The point is, the hitch joint became a straight line between truck and trailer, thus my only concern after that, was pulling up safely....Ohh and lots of calming fluid required afterwards...

As I said before, swaying is the effect of the trailer having steerage control over towing vehicle... Its the trailer you need to sort out first to get control back to the towing vehicle...The towing vehicles job is to tow and steer the trailer not the other way around, thats called swaying... Thus brake trailer and you are now towing it again...


PS Ian just so you dont think I'm a rev head, The truck had an 8V71 in it... As you would know, two speeds, flat out or get out.. Loved the screaming demon but the ringing in the ears was a nightmare...

[DiscoMick]

Thanks.
OK so in my case I would bang the vehicle brakes hard enough to make the display on the Tekonsha P6 show the maximum braking effort on the 1-5 scale and the trailer brakes would go to maximum effort, more than on the Defender.
But that's a different situation of course to yours.

[V8Ian]

PS Ian just so you dont think I'm a rev head, The truck had an 8V71 in it... As you would know, two speeds, flat out or get out.. Loved the screaming demon but the ringing in the ears was a nightmare...
Go hard or go home, even if you only have 318 HP. [bigrolf]
A mate's just done a medical etc, to drive an agi on site, even it's got 350 HP. :tease:

[V8Ian]

Thanks.
OK so in my case I would bang the vehicle brakes hard enough to make the display on the Tekonsha P6 show the maximum braking effort on the 1-5 scale and the trailer brakes would go to maximum effort, more than on the Defender.
But that's a different situation of course to yours.
No Mick, that won't work because you'll have full braking effort on the Defender too. Slide the manual control without touching the brake pedal. Good luck with that for two reasons,
A- The controller is usually mounted in a relatively inaccessible position and
B- With only a couple of inches (if you're lucky) between off and maximum, it's difficult to operate with any degree of accuracy.
The mirrors will probably be filled with black tyre smoke, but if the tail's wagging the dog, a couple of tyres are cheap in comparison to a written off car and 'van, not to mention occupant safety.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

No Mick, that won't work because you'll have full braking effort on the Defender too. Slide the manual control without touching the brake pedal. Good luck with that for two reasons,
A- The controller is usually mounted in a relatively inaccessible position and
B- With only a couple of inches (if you're lucky) between off and maximum, it's difficult to operate with any degree of accuracy.
The mirrors will probably be filled with black tyre smoke, but if the tail's wagging the dog, a couple of tyres are cheap in comparison to a written off car and 'van, not to mention occupant safety.

A,= By law the manual control must be quickly accesable,, mines about 2 inches from my hand, and I practise, and its a good way to see how (if?) the van brakes are working,,
B,= accuracy?? if the tail decides to wag the dog as in the original video (remember that?)who cares? you actually WANT blue tyre smoke,,

but but but,, caravans are not supposed to be set up to produce lockup,,
(from the same people that brought you 10% ball weight)

[V8Ian]

A,= By law the manual control must be quickly accesable,, mines about 2 inches from my hand, and I practise, and its a good way to see how (if?) the van brakes are working,,
B,= accuracy?? if the tail decides to wag the dog as in the original video (remember that?)who cares? you actually WANT blue tyre smoke,,

but but but,, caravans are not supposed to be set up to produce lockup,,
(from the same people that brought you 10% ball weight)
The one professionally installed in the Paj is all but impossible to reach and see. I set the brakes high and read the road to avoid heavy braking.

[Fatso]

Said it before and say it again , towing anything heavier than the tug is a recipe for trouble . I can not understand why anyone would want to tow a 3500Kg behind a 2500Kg pasenger vehicle .
I tow 1700Kg Jayco behind my 2007 RRS 2.7 and it feels about right , you can feel its there and the vehicle is heavy enough to be in charge in times of a bad situation .
As for sticking 350Kg on the tow bar of a passenger vehicle , well thats another story .

[Wraithe]

Go hard or go home, even if you only have 318 HP. [bigrolf]
A mate's just done a medical etc, to drive an agi on site, even it's got 350 HP. :tease:

The days have changed a lot... I remember, with pride, doing the job with 400 gee gees, that you require a minimum of 500 + today...
Those that ran KT 19 at 450 where the power mongers, us 855's, 3406's and the V8's, running 400 where the majority of engines...

Last couple of jiggers had, 575, 550 and 650... Imagine what could have been done in the old days, with them...

But I have to admit one thing, those of old had to know how to run an engine, load, quote, fix everything and smooth over trouble on the job....

Today its, know the log books, get the paperwork right and know what forms to get the stereo or aircon fixed...

My last job was sweet, boss was more into old school workers and listened when I said something was going to break... Only complaint he had was, when I said something was worn out, I meant it... He asked me to get as much out of the clutch as possible, when we removed it, it fell to pieces, no cracks or breaks just completely worn away, springs in clutch plate fell out of holes completely worn away... Not bad for a truck pulling 88 tonne all day everyday for last 12 months with dicky clutch...

[V8Ian]

Good days Wraithe, I could tell some stories, but there's no statute of limitations in this country. [bigwhistle]

[Tins]

The idea of applying brakes to the trailer and not the towing vehicle, is to straighten the hitch point out and to do that you need the trailer dragging against the hitch...

Best description of this is when I had some goose wet a clay rump that I was using to enter a pit.... As there is a slight curve, my trailer decided to over take me and jack-knife... I applied full trailer brakes and full throttle at same time, this put me into a controlled slide as a single unit rather than a trailer just swinging behind trying to send me where-ever... I was able to steer and control that whole vehicle until I stopped, quite safely...(Mind you, I did get called Brockie for the rest of the day)... The point is, the hitch joint became a straight line between truck and trailer, thus my only concern after that, was pulling up safely....Ohh and lots of calming fluid required afterwards...

As I said before, swaying is the effect of the trailer having steerage control over towing vehicle... Its the trailer you need to sort out first to get control back to the towing vehicle...The towing vehicles job is to tow and steer the trailer not the other way around, thats called swaying... Thus brake trailer and you are now towing it again...


PS Ian just so you dont think I'm a rev head, The truck had an 8V71 in it... As you would know, two speeds, flat out or get out.. Loved the screaming demon but the ringing in the ears was a nightmare...

I once had a (single) trailer try to overtake me at around 90kmh near Ballarat. Black ice. A pull on the trailer brake brought the thing back into line. I still left the black top, but at least I did it without the trailer joining me in the cab.

[Tins]

just pointing out that you paint us all with the same brush.



Not me. It's the law that does that. Lowest common denominator and all that. It's hard, however, to see a better approach. Treat everybody as d*&%heads until they prove otherwise.

Nothing personal in this, weeds.

[DiscoMick]

No Mick, that won't work because you'll have full braking effort on the Defender too. Slide the manual control without touching the brake pedal. Good luck with that for two reasons,
A- The controller is usually mounted in a relatively inaccessible position and
B- With only a couple of inches (if you're lucky) between off and maximum, it's difficult to operate with any degree of accuracy.
The mirrors will probably be filled with black tyre smoke, but if the tail's wagging the dog, a couple of tyres are cheap in comparison to a written off car and 'van, not to mention occupant safety.
No I've actually done this and when the trailer brake controller is reading 5 the Defender hasn't locked up. Must be the way it was set up for me. The manual controller on the Tekonsha is only used to set up the display scale. After that it's done by brake pressure. This variable braking ability is the reason the Tekonsha is recommended for caravans and I chose it over others. Obviously different to a truck system.

[Tins]

John, if an endorsement for towing ever got traction, it would not effect you.

No, and neither it should. I don't have anything like your experience, Ian, but I do have some...


Sometime in the eighties Queensland introduced E6, that became Road Train. Anybody who could provide evidence of experience was upgraded. My proof was the rego papers for my prime mover.
Existing licenced car drivers would be granted similar, if not automatic rights to tow a trailer.
I don't believe small, box trailers need an endorsement.

In a sense, neither do I. A 6x4 box trailer is unlikely to take over the car. However, the same trailer can cause considerable harm if the person towing it is incapable of reversing it. And God knows, a 6x4 box trailer is about the most difficult thing in the world to reverse.



For three years QT refused to issue me with an E4 as I hadn't been trained to drive a B Double. I was qualified to drive a 50 metre long vehicle with five articulation points, weighing 90 tonnes but not an 18 metre long vehicle weighing 55 tonne with two articulation points.

That, of course, is ridiculous, but it serves to highlight the stupidity of the system in general. My licence is MC. I have driven a 'train' on two occasions, and both times I was very well aware of my inadequacies. I also know that, given a bit of time and a few thousand ks I would be able to manage. But my licence says that I can do it, and right now I know I can't.

None of the above takes away the fact that you and I have training. The bloke in the cruiser with the van in that vid clearly does not. If he did, he would have acted on the first sway. Not like he wouldn't have felt it.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I dunno , it seems to me theres a fair bit of pointing,,
and anyone that tows unprofessionally is fair game,,

of course,, thats just how it seems to me.

I could be wrong, after all I tow unprofessionally.. which seems to be the cutoff point in this arguement---

[Tins]

They do, but they are useless. Trucks (real ones) have a foot long trailer brake lever ergonomically mounted on the steering column, allowing controlled, progressive trailer braking.

They are all real trucks, Ian. It's just that some are modern European types, while others are Yank dinosaurs. I know which will win out in the end. The efficiencies of the Euros will prevail due to simple economics. I actually like both. Well, apart from SARs.

I agree wholeheartedly about the trailer brake controller though. The little lever on Volvos might as well be a switch. The late model Scanias don't have one at all. On the other hand, the brake pedal system in the Scania is a far more intelligent control interface than the treadle system found in the Yanks.

[Wraithe]

I once had a (single) trailer try to overtake me at around 90kmh near Ballarat. Black ice. A pull on the trailer brake brought the thing back into line. I still left the black top, but at least I did it without the trailer joining me in the cab.

Yeh its scary... Anyone who says it isnt, is a nut... Even the thrill seekers get a fright...

Only ever been on ice once, and it was not in the cold country... Thought I spun the drive hubs but truck behind me explained it was ice... Bit un-nerving loosing traction on bitumen with a triple...Place was south of Sand fire roadhouse, for those that dont know, thats between Port Hedland and Broome...

[Wraithe]

Good days Wraithe, I could tell some stories, but there's no statute of limitations in this country. [bigwhistle]

I think anyone who has done the miles we do, have seen a lot... Just about every trip is an adventure of some sorts...

[Wraithe]

They are all real trucks, Ian. It's just that some are modern European types, while others are Yank dinosaurs. I know which will win out in the end. The efficiencies of the Euros will prevail due to simple economics. I actually like both. Well, apart from SARs.

I agree wholeheartedly about the trailer brake controller though. The little lever on Volvos might as well be a switch. The late model Scanias don't have one at all. On the other hand, the brake pedal system in the Scania is a far more intelligent control interface than the treadle system found in the Yanks.

Got to disagree... Modern trucks, post 1990 are not real trucks...

The pre electrics where real, real hard work, real heavy, real tough and would really break your body in time...

My list starts with one I owned, other 2 out of respect and working with them...

Kenworth W model, til I owned one, thought they where cowboy trucks, I never looked back after that bus, could drive all day and still feel like I had only driven around the block...

Mack Superliner, tough and incredible off road, mind you that is a Mack trait back then... Those V8's cant be bargained with, they just pull all day and love it...

White Road boss, this one roads up the top 3, just another work horse like the other 2, only issue with them was they rattled too much...

Ford LTL tried to get into this group but I dont like them much...

The V8 shopping trolleys weren't too bad but they had issues I dont want in a truck...

[Wraithe]

Going back to the thread,

It dont matter if you have driven 10 million k's or 10 thousand, the mind of the driver is what counts and experience long term, only happens because the driver had the sense to be cautious even when he has done a lot of driving... You need to be cautious at all times and towing something that you never towed before requires you to be cautious and dont get over confident...

The most experienced and respected truck drivers on the road dont just get in the truck and drive off, he will check everything he can before moving...
Checking the load if loaded or even checking an empty trailer, couplings, lights etc etc...

Towing a trailer behind a vehicle requires the same effort for a box trailer as for a triple or quad roadtrain...

The skill set starts exactly the same, there is no one ever born with the skill to drive anything...

This discussion about towing trailers from box trailers to triple roadtrains brings about a lot of information that can be passed on and hopefully make towing a safer avenue when going down the road...

At the end of the day, we all want to be able to get home safely...[bigsmile1]

This old dumb ex truck driver is off to watch some tv...

[V8Ian]

No I've actually done this and when the trailer brake controller is reading 5 the Defender hasn't locked up. Must be the way it was set up for me. The manual controller on the Tekonsha is only used to set up the display scale. After that it's done by brake pressure. This variable braking ability is the reason the Tekonsha is recommended for caravans and I chose it over others. Obviously different to a truck system.
Mick, any brand of electric brake controller is merely a rheostat, adjustable by the driver. They also have a spring-loaded, manual over-ride switch to operate the trailer brakes independently.

[V8Ian]

No, and neither it should. I don't have anything like your experience, Ian, but I do have some...

Wrong John, my comments were directed at JD.

[V8Ian]

I dunno , it seems to me theres a fair bit of pointing,,
and anyone that tows unprofessionally is fair game,,

of course,, thats just how it seems to me.

I could be wrong, after all I tow unprofessionally.. which seems to be the cutoff point in this arguement---
Not at all Pedro, many can handle their trailers adequately but they've got there by either making mistakes or good luck. Would you be happy for truck drivers to gain their qualifications the same way?

[V8Ian]

I agree wholeheartedly about the trailer brake controller though. The little lever on Volvos might as well be a switch. The late model Scanias don't have one at all. On the other hand, the brake pedal system in the Scania is a far more intelligent control interface than the treadle system found in the Yanks.
How do you do a proper tug test?

[Wraithe]

How do you do a proper tug test?

Dont connect the trailer brakes...

Then of course, have a few trailers dragged down the road with there brakes locked up

[V8Ian]

Dont connect the trailer brakes...

Then of course, have a few trailers dragged down the road with there brakes locked up
That, in my opinion is not a proper test, it's possible to get a false positive. The show needs to be rolling when the brakes are applied.

[Wraithe]

That, in my opinion is not a proper test, it's possible to get a false positive. The show needs to be rolling when the brakes are applied.

But in a truck with no independent trailer brake... do you have a solution?

[V8Ian]

But in a truck with no independent trailer brake... do you have a solution?
Trade it on a Stratosphere. [wink11]

[Wraithe]

Trade it on a Stratosphere. [wink11]


[biggrin] Smart a%^&[happycry]

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Not at all Pedro, many can handle their trailers adequately but they've got there by either making mistakes or good luck.


wow,, just wow..