Holden Conversion Clutch

[mick88]

Here are a few pics of the clutch from my series 3 88" which failed a few days ago.
The reason the clutch failed is due to a broken diaphragm in the pressure plate.
The main reason I have put up to show what clutch arrangement the Holden conversion has, which may be of help to others in the future..
Judging from the adaptor plate, I assume it is a Johnson Conversion.
It has a standard 9.5 inch Land Rover clutch and this pressure plate is a Borg & Beck which is bolted onto a flywheel which has been made specifically for the conversion.
The flywheel is identical to Holden red motor one with the exception of having a slightly larger diameter (about 10mm) on the face and only drilled to accept the Land Rover pressure plate.
It weighs (give or take a few grams) the same as the standard Holden Red motor flywheel which is 11kg.
The clutch friction plate is standard Land Rover 9.5 inch.

Cheers, Mick

[pk.hoarder]

Here are a few pics of the clutch from my series 3 88" which failed a few days ago.
The reason the clutch failed is due to a broken diaphragm in the pressure plate.
The main reason I have put up to show what clutch arrangement the Holden conversion has, which may be of help to others in the future..
Judging from the adaptor plate, I assume it is a Johnson Conversion.
It has a standard 9.5 inch Land Rover clutch and this pressure plate is a Borg & Beck which is bolted onto a flywheel which has been made specifically for the conversion.
The flywheel is identical to Holden red motor one with the exception of having a slightly larger diameter (about 10mm) on the face and only drilled to accept the Land Rover pressure plate.
It weighs (give or take a few grams) the same as the standard Holden Red motor flywheel which is 11kg.
The clutch friction plate is standard Land Rover 9.5 inch.

Cheers, Mick
Thanks for putting this up Mick, my 186 2A clutch is just starting to slip so it's time to figure out what's in there!

[grizzz]

I am fitting a 186 on to a series series 3 box.
What are the clutch options?
I expect to use a holden fly wheel redrilled to take a land rover clutch.
Of the 3 I have got to hand.
The one is completely new to me. It looks like the land rover adaptor has been redrilled and fitted the holden motor. It has a Lucas starter.
The flywheel has been drilled and has a machined spacer fitted behind it. The spacer has a bronze bush in it so Im thinking this is the spigot.
The other 2 are holden clutches. Is this a reasonable way to go?

[mick88]

I am fitting a 186 on to a series series 3 box.
What are the clutch options?
I expect to use a holden fly wheel redrilled to take a land rover clutch.
Of the 3 I have got to hand.
The one is completely new to me. It looks like the land rover adaptor has been redrilled and fitted the holden motor. It has a Lucas starter.
The flywheel has been drilled and has a machined spacer fitted behind it. The spacer has a bronze bush in it so Im thinking this is the spigot.
The other 2 are holden clutches. Is this a reasonable way to go?

The conversion you are talking about that utilises the Land Rover starter motor and a boss/adaptor between the flywheel and the Holden crankshaft is most likely a "Dellow" Conversion (I have one here), and it will most likely have an aluminium adaptor plate.
They are a very crude looking conversion, but as they utilise the 14.5 kg Land Rover flywheel they make the Holden motor very suitable for the purpose by adding plenty of low revs torque. This will also use a standard Land Rover clutch, which is 9.5" diaphragm type on a series 3.

The other conversion kits you have will most like have an 11kg flywheel which is the standard weight for a Holden red motor, however some kits had a purpose built flywheel, almost identical to a stock Holden one, but about 5-8mm larger in diameter across the face to accept the a slightly larger PCD of the Land Rover 9.5" diaphragm clutch pressure plate.
If you go down this path you will need to use the "cast iron" adaptor plate (but it may be a fabricated steel one) between the motor and gearbox, as I don't think the alloy Dellow one will work, the dimensions would be wrong given it uses a spacer (adaptor/boss) between the crank and flywheel.

Let me know if you want any pics or more info as I have both conversions kits here.

I have attached some pics of the flywheel adaptor. Does the one you have look the same as this?

Cheers, Mick.

[grizzz]

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These are the 3 major pieces I have for one clutch option.
I know nothing about who did it and how accurate the holes are.
The other uses the holden flywheel and clutch has a steel adaptor that looks professionally made

[mick88]

That is a Land Rover (2.25 or 2.6) flywheel that has been redrilled to bolt up to a Holden straight six crankshaft, and obviously as you say, the standard Land Rover alloy engine to gearbox adaptor has been redrilled. I wonder how accurate it was regarding run-out?

The conversion that uses the LR flywheel would be the choice (providing it all runs true) as the heavier weight (3.5kg more), will be very noticeable when driving the vehicle, especially taking off, and low rpm pulling etc. Plus with this flywheel the Land Rover 9.5 inch clutch will bolt up, which is a good thing.
If you also fit a Bosch HEI electronic distributor (from a later model blue motor) and a Bosch HEC716 coil, it will pull like the proverbial. ;)
A Crow Hi-Torque Cam (35613) or an EFI Cam (35678) will add further improvements.
Good pulling power on those NZ hills.
The Land Rover starter motor will do the job, just make sure it's in good nick, brushes, bushes, etc.
If you are not happy with the starter there are good quality reduction starter motors for series vehicles available from Rovers North (USA), but they are pricey. STARTER MOTOR 4 & 6 PETROL HI TORQUE, PLI029, RTC5225HD | Rovers North - Land Rover Parts and Accessories Since 1979 (https://www.roversnorth.com/productdesc.aspx?code=PLI029&type=0&eq=&key=it)


If you decide to go with the other conversion kit using the steel adaptor, Holden flywheel, etc, have a good look at drilling the flywheel to take the LR 9.5 inch clutch. It can be done, but the bolt holes end up very close to the edge of the flywheel.

Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

Here are some pics of three different adaptor plates.
The first three are of the alloy Dellow Conversion Kit adaptor plate.
The next is a fabricated steel adaptor plate. Possibly home made or local Garage/Mechanic.
The last two are cast as was used by the D.R. Johnston Conversion Kits.


Cheers, Mick.

[grizzz]

Thanks Mick.
I have reread the the pinned article on checking alignment.
Thats the next step if I can reasonably get the LR setup aligned then thats going to be the answer.
Second choice is trying to convince someone with a lathe to at least mark out the Holden flywheel for a LR clutch

[mick88]

Grizz,
can you please post up a couple more pics of that crank to flywheel adaptor, ie from the rear and a side view.
How much does it actually space the flywheel from the crankshaft.

Cheers, Mick.

[grizzz]

Mick, thanks for the interest and information.

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The bush is 1" thick overall, the recess for the crank is 3/8"
I have forgotten to measure how much has been turned out of the flywheel.
I will add this was fitted in my Land Rover but the motor had the oil light come on at a idle when it warmed up.
The vehicle is still getting back on the road so it has only had a few short drives on farm.
The clutch felt ok.
I see in the photos of the flywheel that there are oil/ grease tracks that look like cracks. They arent cracks.

[mick88]

Thanks Grizz,
very interesting.
So it seems the flywheel is moved rearward approximately 5/8".
I reckon the flywheel is standard LR, bar the extra holes for the Holden bolt pattern.

By the way, was the oil light flickering, or on full glow?
The Workshop Manual I have (for 161ci and 186ci engines) states it is "normal" for the oil light to flicker at idle.

Cheers, Mick.

[grizzz]

Thanks Grizz,
very interesting.
So it seems the flywheel is moved rearward approximately 5/8".
I reckon the flywheel is standard LR, bar the extra holes for the Holden bolt pattern.

By the way, was the oil light flickering, or on full glow?
The Workshop Manual I have (for 161ci and 186ci engines) states it is "normal" for the oil light to flicker at idle.

Cheers, Mick.

I have measured the recess in the back of the flywheel. it is 5/16"
Meaning the flywheel is moved 5/16" if my maths are right.
It is interesting to me that the machining appears to all imperial.

The oil light sort of varied between flickering and on. Only after I had pulled the engine did I realise the light was connected to a gauge sender unit.
I dont know if this would have made any difference. My instinct says it would have because I expect the internals to be quite different.

[mick88]

The measurements are most likely imperial, as both the Holden and Land Rover engines would have been built before the metric system was introduced in the 1970's. It took years to implement, caused a lot of confusion, and some bloody big stuff ups along the way. I worked for an engineering business during those years.
Cheers, Mick.

[mick88]

Out of interest here is another purpose built flywheel that has been part of a Holden conversion kit.
It is very similar to a Holden red motor flywheel but is just a few mm larger in diameter across
the face to allow for the PCD of a 9.5" Land Rover pressure plate.
The centre of the flywheel is more like the Land Rover flywheel and has been engineered to take
a Land Rover spigot bush.
This flywheel has been turned from a billet of steel, as opposed to cast iron, so most likely
it would be a bit harder on a clutch plate.
This one weighs 12kg.

Cheers, Mick.

[rangieman]

Out of interest here is another purpose built flywheel that has been part of a Holden conversion kit.
It is very similar to a Holden red motor flywheel but is just a few mm larger in diameter across
the face to allow for the PCD of a 9.5" Land Rover pressure plate.
The centre of the flywheel is more like the Land Rover flywheel and has been engineered to take
a Land Rover spigot bush.
This flywheel has been turned from a billet of steel, as opposed to cast iron, so most likely
it would be a bit harder on a clutch plate.

Cheers, Mick.
Many moons ago when i dabbled in the holden anchor series thing there was a guy in Scoresby that made these in which i did purchase one .

The theory was it was the equivalent weight to a landy fly wheel and also excepted the landy clutch ect.

One of the best advantages i found was with the heavier Flywheel you squeezed a bit of torque out of the red anchor .

[mick88]

Many moons ago when i dabbled in the holden anchor series thing there was a guy in Scoresby that made these in which i did purchase one .

The theory was it was the equivalent weight to a landy fly wheel and also excepted the landy clutch ect.

One of the best advantages i found was with the heavier Flywheel you squeezed a bit of torque out of the red anchor .

This one weighs 12kg, only one kilogram heavier than a standard Red Motor flywheel, and two and half kilograms short of a standard
2.25/2.6 Land Rover flywheel.


Cheers, Mick.

[rangieman]

This one weighs 12kg, only one kilogram heavier than a standard Red Motor flywheel, and two and half kilograms short of a standard
2.25/2.6 Land Rover flywheel.


Cheers, Mick.
Well i know the one i had was the equivalent weight to the Landy one so likely different to yours [wink11]

[grizzz]

I setup the LR adaptor to able to use the LR clutch.
The run out was about 1-1.2mm I noticed while checking this that one one locator pin hole was ovalled but I ran out of nerve before extending the oval enough to get rid of the
runout. (I got it to about 0.5-0.6 and the oval was massive)
Plan B to have the holden flywheel redrilled has hit a wall none of the engineers I asked and showed what I wanted were prepared to drill that close to the edge.
Plan B1 Have a slightly bigger flywheel made was discarded on the basis of price. (I have bought another motor for less).
Plan C is to use the Holden clutch.

I havent installed it yet and any other suggestions are welcome.
How difficult could or should it be to accurately setup a Land Rover adaptor? I dont have one but think they should be obtainable.

[mick88]

Grizz,
sounds like your running into a few obstacles with your project.
I assume by making up another LR adaptor you mean drilling one to suit the Holden engine bell housing pattern.
The accuracy is all in the marking out, and ensuring that you have the adaptor centered on the Holden crank when
you mark out for the holes. Similar in a way to aligning a clutch plate when mating a motor and gearbox.
Even an alignment tool/boss turned up from a piece of wood will do the job. It just needs to be a precise fit over the
end of the crank, and in the centre of the LR adaptor. Some short 7/16 UNC bolts with the heads cut off, then turned
to a point and screwed into the Holden block will give you centre points, for the location of the bolt holes.
Rather than pick up another LR adaptor you might be able to get your existing one welded up by a local aluminium
welder, so that the inaccurate holes are blanked off, and start afresh with it.
Hope you can follow what I am talking about.
If you weren't so far away I would give you a hand with it.

Cheers, Mick.