SERIES 3, 1973 with HOLDEN 186 MOTOR

[Garry Treen]

We've recently joined and started posting about "Bev" in the Series 2A section, however, we have put the Series 2A on the backburner for the moment because we just bought this Series 3, 1973 model so thought we'd better post here. We've christened him "Forrest".

For those of you familiar with 186 Holden motor conversions we would love your comments on the process of conversion and what jumps out at you from our photos. We know that it's quite common for this to have been done but that's about all we know. The plan for this project is to strip down completely and restore from the ground up so if you have any suggestions, recommendations please feel free to jump in and comment. We have some books and a cd arriving and also have Land Rover Workshop Manuals parts 1 & 2 but for Series 2A.

We realize there is a lot on the forum to search through and have been reading various threads and watching videos and learnt bits and pieces but need to work out a plan of attack for our project.

cheers
Garry and Veronica

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/17.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/18.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/19.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/20.jpg

[rangieman]

Dont know if it is the picture playing tricks but that motor appears to be crooked towards the drivers side[wink11]

[Lionelgee]

Hello Gary,

That is a nice looking rig you have got for yourself there!

You might want to ask a convenor to shift your thread as there is a dedicated Holden powered group located not far below the Series III page.

[bigsmile]

Mine is 202 cubic inch Holden motor.

There is a "Sticky Note" about alignment issues with the gearbox and Holden engine interface. It is well worth a read - available from the Holden page Both links accessed August 2, 2017 are: https://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers and the Sticky Note BEFORE FITTING A HOLDEN ENGINE CHECK ALIGMENT FIRST (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/133415-before-fitting-holden-engine-check-aligment-first.html)

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Garry Treen]

Thanks very much for the links Lionel, I will take a look at them. We are keeping in mind both Series 3 restoration and Holden motor posts so have been searching and doing lots of reading. May be pertinent to post in both areas to start with as you never know whose attention we may grab. All responses are greatly appreciated at this early stage of things for us as we are learning.

We were quite pleased with our Landy find and hope to have it running around on the road again. (We have a Series 2A lurking in the background too)[smilebigeye]

I think I've come across the sticky on alignment issues so am looking into that further. The conversion on ours has been done by someone and it looks like it has been mucked about a bit with regards to extra fuel tank and water supply in the back, possibly for camping or long range trips.

Thanks very much for your comment.

Cheers
Garry




Hello Gary,

That is a nice looking rig you have got for yourself there!

You might want to ask a convenor to shift your thread as there is a dedicated Holden powered group located not far below the Series III page.

[bigsmile]

Mine is 202 cubic inch Holden motor.

There is a "Sticky Note" about alignment issues with the gearbox and Holden engine interface. It is well worth a read - available from the Holden page Both links accessed August 2, 2017 are: https://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers and the Sticky Note BEFORE FITTING A HOLDEN ENGINE CHECK ALIGMENT FIRST (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/133415-before-fitting-holden-engine-check-aligment-first.html)

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Dark61]

Looks nice and tidy. Is it a runner?
cheers,
d

[Garry Treen]

Thanks for picking that up Chris, will be taking a closer look.


Dont know if it is the picture playing tricks but that motor appears to be crooked towards the drivers side[wink11]

[Garry Treen]

Not at this stage. Been out of action since 2006. Pretty dodgy wiring and fuel lines I think. Everything else is looking good though so far.

o
Looks nice and tidy. Is it a runner?
cheers,
d

[Dark61]

All good. I keep threatening to fire up my 179 - not far off now but there is always something getting in the way of it

[Garry Treen]

The only part removed from "Forrest" so far was the front grille.

It was time to start stripping down for real. Here are some progress shots. The Tropical Roof still attached with what looks to be the original white nylon spacers.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/223.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/224.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/225.jpg

The windscreen has a unique method of attachment.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/226.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/227.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/228.jpg

Seats and front windscreen removed.

[Garry Treen]

Right now in our 88" we have a Holden 186 motor with what looks to be a poorly done conversion. The motor turns but don't know if it runs. As you will see by our previous photos we are in early strip down/assessment mode and working out what we really want to do with the III.

We also have "Bev" a Series IIA 2.25 petrol, chassis D, negative ground, so we have the option of moving it's motor over to the Series III chassis A if this is possible. From what I've been able to find, info tells me that this is the same motor that was in the early Series III. The previous owner tells me the IIA motor was running prior to being parked up about 7 yrs ago.

My intention is to get the Series III restored, running and over the pits. Veronica wants to keep "Bev's" exterior charm but isn't fussed about her being registered, maybe just be used on the farm.

Apart from the obvious differences between the two motors would love some comments or advice on the advantages or disadvantages of swapping the motors between vehicles and any pitfalls that may be encountered other than some of those I've been reading about on this site. Lots of modification work has been done on the III chassis to accommodate the 186 and radiator so even if it stays there is still going to be restorative work to be done.

cheers
Garryhttps://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/17.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/18.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/276.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/07/746.jpg

[Lionelgee]

Hello Gary,

Thanks for taking a photograph of the engine bay and posting it up.

Could you please take some close up photographs of the accelerator linkages from the passenger's side fire wall to the carburettor and post them up for me. Your system looks like it used more of the original arrangement then my Holden conversion does. I highlighted the area with a red rectangle in the attached photograph.

I noticed that you have mechanical linkages - rods going all the way up to the carburettor. I have a half wheel Dellorto that fits on the throttle shaft and links to a accelerator cable. The cable then cross over the tappet cover and joins to the accelerator linkage just near the driver's foot well.

It is your vehicle so whether you want to stay with the Holden or take it back to an original Land Rover engine is up to you. Either way you will have a really sweet ride when you are finished.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[Dinty]

Lionel, the linkages are std Holden items, I used them myself way back in the mid 70's, they unbolt from the firewall with 2 screws, that system is a lot easier to set up than using std L/R stuff.
As for the apparent ?? engine misalignment, maybe I would be thinking it could have home made engine mounts thus causing the engine to be facing to the right side, just my thoughts cheers Dennis[smilebigeye]

[Garry Treen]

Hi Lionel,

I will take some photos and post for you to look at.

Thanks for your comment.

cheers
Garry


Hello Gary,

Thanks for taking a photograph of the engine bay and posting it up.

Could you please take some close up photographs of the accelerator linkages from the passenger's side fire wall to the carburettor and post them up for me. Your system looks like it used more of the original arrangement then my Holden conversion does. I highlighted the area with a red rectangle in the attached photograph.

I noticed that you have mechanical linkages - rods going all the way up to the carburettor. I have a half wheel Dellorto that fits on the throttle shaft and links to a accelerator cable. The cable then cross over the tappet cover and joins to the accelerator linkage just near the driver's foot well.

It is your vehicle so whether you want to stay with the Holden or take it back to an original Land Rover engine is up to you. Either way you will have a really sweet ride when you are finished.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Lionel, the linkages are std Holden items, I used them myself way back in the mid 70's, they unbolt from the firewall with 2 screws, that system is a lot easier to set up than using std L/R stuff.
As for the apparent ?? engine misalignment, maybe I would be thinking it could have home made engine mounts thus causing the engine to be facing to the right side, just my thoughts cheers Dennis[smilebigeye]

Hello Dennis,

Thanks for the information - much appreciated. I wrote some more about it over in my Rebus is Alive thread. Don't want to hijack Gary's thread too much. [bigwhistle]

Kind Regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hi Lionel,

I will take some photos and post for you to look at.

Thanks for your comment.

cheers
Garry

Hello Garry,

Thank you for the reply. Feel free to post the photographs over on my Rebus is Alive thread instead of my interests diverting your thread.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[Garry Treen]

Ok, will do.


Hello Garry,

Thank you for the reply. Feel free to post the photographs over on my Rebus is Alive thread instead of my interests diverting your thread.


Kind Regards
Lionel

[rangieman]

Ditch the red POS boat anchor[thumbsupbig]

[Garry Treen]

Today we went over to the shed for a tidy up. Before we knew it we were stripping off the front panels and getting a better look at the front of the chassis. Apart from the rust, we exposed some of the modifications carried out when the Holden motor and radiator was fitted. We have parts of the heater setup but no matrix. We have the snail blower and it's quite rusty and we're sure more rust will be inside. We have a shock absorber fitted across the front steering? as well as a solid lump of steel maybe to protect the shock absorber and have to source a new front bumper as our was missing.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/300.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/301.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/302.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/303.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/304.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/305.jpg
Can anyone tell me what the studs on the bulkhead are for?
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/306.jpg

[JDNSW]

The studs on the bulkhead are probably to attach some sort of matting for insulation.

It seems that there are going to be significant chassis and bulkhead repairs needed - and I can't see that cutout in the chassis for the Holden radiator ever passing muster, which suggests that restoring to original condition and fitting a Rover engine might be the best option.

The steering damper is a factory option, that was fitted to most, if not all, Australian built Series 3. Not absolutely necessary.

The radiator support panel the best option is probably to find another one. Probably best to do that with the bulkhead as well, although this will be more expensive/harder.

[vnx205]

When I bought my 1973 Series III, I didn't realise that it had a Series II engine until I measured the crankshaft in preparation for fitting rings and bearings.

I later fitted a Series III engine. I didn't have to modify anything, so I think that means that they are the same as far as mountings and connections go.

[JDNSW]

The engine originated as the 2.0 diesel in 1956 (or 1955 for testing), but a petrol version was planned all along.

The petrol version, which had pistons running in the block instead of wet sleeves, and was 2.25l, appeared with the Series 2 in 1958.

With the Series 2a in 1961, the diesel increased in capacity to 2.25, and ditched the sleeves. In fact, there were a lot more changes, and a lot of these also affected the petrol engine, as the two engines now shared as many parts as possible. This sharing includes the block, which meant the crankshaft dimensions (if not metallurgy and finish) of the two had to be the same.

The engines were subject to ongoing continuous development throughout the rest of Series 2a and 3 production, with the major change being the introduction of five main bearings in late Series 3 production (not many of these, if any, were sold here - Australian production seems to have had a lot of three bearing engines to use up).

The engines are completely interchangeable, and so are many of the parts, although not all; for example, the five bearing engines went metric.

So any four cylinder engine from Series 2 to the end of Series 3 is a bolt in replacement (except for early 1958 88 Series 2, that used the Series 1 motor).

With a legal disclaimer! From the late 1960s, increasingly strict emissions controls mandated by ADRs meant that there were various modifications to the engine accessories. It is unlikely that you would be picked up on any of these, however, but it is wise to be aware of what the vehicle should have. And avoid having a mixture of accessories - for example, the first change was positive crankcase ventilation - if you have partly this equipment and partly open crankcase ventilation, you are likely to end up eith no ventilation, which is likely to shorten engine life and may cause seal failure.

[mick88]

Good looking project you have there to play with and it should keep you busy for a good spell.
There is nothing wrong with having a Holden motor in your Landy, and a 186 in good nick is one of the best, but a pair of 3.54 diff centres
from a Range Rover will make a big improvement. By the look of it you have a Johnson conversion kit, as the engine mounts look identical
to the ones I have on a couple of vehicles here.
Johnson conversions are one of the best and didn't appear to have any alignment issues, so don't be too fussed about that. Just make sure a
all the mating surfaces are clean and even. If there are any burrs or lumps from being knocked or damaged just file them off. I have done
thousands of kilometers with them and not had any gearbox issues.
At the top of the Holden Powered Series Land Rovers page there is a link to an information booklet that was supplied with a Johnson Conversion.
The adaptor plate should be a cast iron one like the one fitted to the engine I posted a pic of, and the flywheel should be a purpose made
item almost identical to a standard Holden red motor flywheel (weight 11kg), but about 8mm larger in diameter, and drilled to accept the standard Land
Rover 9.5 inch diaphragm clutch, as used on the Series 3's.
The only mod I would do is get a mate with a lathe, or local engineering shop to turn you up a bush to fit in the centre of the flywheel to take
the spigot bush. This way the whole length of the end of the gearbox main shaft runs in the bush, rather than just a 5-6 mm of it, as when the
bush is fitted into the rear of the crankshaft. The first two pics I have posted is of a flywheel with the modification to accept the spigot bush in the flywheel.
While you have the flywheel out I would remove the ring gear and replace it in the reverse, and in a different position (rotate it 60 degrees).
Ring gear can be easily removed and refitted with a gas BBQ/oven.
The flywheel may need surfacing too if it's done a lot of work.


Cheers, Mick.

[Garry Treen]

Thank you John and Mick for your comments regarding the Holden motor and conversion information which I've taken on board. Madly researching conversions and identifying what has been done to "Forrest" and thoughts of just exactly what I want to do with him. Although my father's Series 2 Landy had a 186 and I am aware that conversions were carried out, I was not involved in the research and purchase due to crippling health issues I experienced in the early 1980's, my older brother handled that one. There are certain things I remember but by the time I was well again there were more important things to be getting on with other. At the end of the day there was no time to stuff around with perfecting the Landy because there was a shed and shortly after a house to be built, I'm a builder by trade.

I know there are many things that will come to light as I continue to strip "Forrest" down and I am enjoying the process so far.

Yesterday, after degreasing and cleaning "Forrest" at the yard, we managed to pick up some parts that we feel will be useful in our restoration project.

Before and after the cleanup process.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/429.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/430.jpg

Our box of spare parts.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/431.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/432.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/433.jpg

Oh and we managed to get ourselves a front bumper.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/434.jpg

Also blogging about our experience if you want to take a look. Started out with "Bev" the series 2 and now have "Forrest" the series 3. "Bev" is waiting up the farm patiently but will be coming to the city soon.


"Bev" the Series2A Landy (A farmgirl goes to the city): PICKING PARTS - A GOOD SCORE (https://bevtheseries2landy.blogspot.com.au/2017/08/picking-parts-good-score.html)

[Garry Treen]

Yesterday we removed the tub and today I removed the clutch, brake and steering column followed by the bulkhead. My brother and nephew came over for a look and helped me remove the engine. Veronica found the chassis number stamped into the rear left hand spring hanger

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/584.jpg


We also managed to source some more parts which we're pretty happy about.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/585.jpg

Progress photos.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/586.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/587.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/588.jpg

[Garry Treen]

I've always been a lover of books, can't imagine life without them. Never expected to have these in my collection though.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/632.jpg

Arrived this morning. Looking forward to reading it.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/630.jpg


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/631.jpg

cheers
Veronica

[Garry Treen]

Just about finished stripping the chassis and having a go at my steering relay. Thanks to TimNZ I have been able to make up a Steering Relay Remover thingy with some old bits of steel I had laying around. I know there is a reason I keep this crap so it's good when it finally gets used. Fingers crossed it works for me too.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/111.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/112.jpg

With the assistance of my brother and a CAD program, I've had some new pieces fabricated for repairs to the chassis.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/143.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/113.jpg

I've also invested in an early birthday present to myself.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/114.jpg

Gearbox mounts are stuffed.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/115.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/116.jpg

[Garry Treen]

As I mentioned in the previous post, Garry had obtained information from TimNZ's posts showing how he removed his steering relay with his handy creation.


Garry located some pieces of 75 x 75 x 6 steel angle and some 12mm x 600mm threaded rod and proceeded to construct a steering relay removal thingy. Over the last week the offending part has been liberally treated/doused with CRC and Penetrene.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/138.jpg


It seems the 2 tonne jack was not capable of doing the job. He could hire a 4 tonne jack from Kennards Hire or buy one at Supercheap Auto on sale for $34.00. No prizes for guessing we now own a 4 tonne jack.

What a contraption, packed and clamped and ready for the 4 tonne jack to slide on under.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/139.jpg

Ever so slowly it started to move. You can just see it starting to rise up and get higher and higher.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/140.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/141.jpg

Finally, out it comes and you can see just how dirty and rusty it is.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/142.jpg



To say that Garry is stoked is an understatement. Our collection of tools and implements is growing and all will come in handy, along with the knowledge gained from the AULRO forum when it's time to strip down "Bev".
Thanks and credit for the steering relay remover thingy must go to TimNZ. Two for two. YAY!

[Garry Treen]

I've been thinking about whether to remove and replace the badly rusted pieces of the chassis before I send it away for sandblasting and today I made the decision to go ahead and do just that.


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/173.jpg
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/174.jpg

Slowly cut back the rusted bits until I reached solid steel.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/175.jpg

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/176.jpg

All the waste bits.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/09/177.jpg

[mick88]

I like your work.
Following this thread with interest.

Cheers, Mick.

[HowZedBra]

Hi. I just purchased a 72 109 Series 3 which is in need of chassis repair from the front brace forward. It would be of great help to me to have the CAD drawing your brother did for these sections. Did he do drawings for the front spring hangars as well?