Re-fitting Defender front radius arms. Help!

[travelrover]

Hi all

I am trying to refit the radius arms to my 300Tdi Defender having replaced all the bushes. According to the Land Rover tool box video on the subject the ‘easiest’ way is to insert the chassis end first with the new bushes and lightly tighten these. Then manoeuvre the front of the radius arm so as to be able to insert the rear bolt (on each side) first and then the front bolt aligning the holes by jacking the axel ….

The Haynes manual says to insert the front bolts first…. Both sound easy… all the Land Rover workshop manual says is refit! very helpful.

Following the Land Rover tool box video method I have managed to get the left hand side (chassis bolt on loosely) aligned enough to get a smaller bolt through the rear bush but no way can I get this aligned to get the proper bolt through. I have jacked up and lowered the axle and also tried jacking the radius arm up and down and using a pry bar to get things aligned all to no avail! On the driver’s side I have not managed to get the holes aligned at all yet after many frustrating hours. I have now removed the nuts and rear push on bushes on the chassis end of the radius arms to allow for some forward/backward movement.

While having a cuppa I decided to start again using the Haynes manual approach but now I can’t get the driver’s side arm off and can’t see where it is hung up… Too dark to continue for today.

So I am seeking guidance and was hoping there may be some pearls of wisdom amongst those educated in such things as to how to get these correctly aligned and bolts in?

[fitzy]

Depending on how your car/ chassis is supported,
You could fit the radius arms to the axle housing and then roll them toward the rear of the vehicle and into their mounting holes.

[travelrover]

Depending on how your car/ chassis is supported,
You could fit the radius arms to the axle housing and then roll them toward the rear of the vehicle and into their mounting holes.Arrr, hadnt thought of that. The vehicle is sitting on jacks under the chassis rails so it might be an option.. i have the front axle supported on a floor jack. Problem is it is outside as it has a 3inch lift and a roof rack so way too highto fit in my shed.

Thanks fitzy

Cheers, Simon

[jboot51]

If you have both radius arms out, you may need to undo the panhard rod as the diff will now be pushed to one side slightly and not allowing the radius arms to be square to the chassis.
Once you get a bolt through the bush, you will need to rotate the diff housing.
Using a jack to apply pressure near the pinion will work.
I would insert chassis end first, then rear bolt, rotate diff to get the front bolt in.

[DiscoClax]

IIRC when I did mine I 'tapped' the arm up into the diff housing until close to position then used a pry bar to wiggle it around until I could get one bolt through (fiddly) while making sure the diff nose was pointing down a bit more than usual. Once the first bolt was in I then put a jack under the diff pinion and lifted it until the diff rotated enough to line up the other one. The did similar on the other side but without the ability to really rotate the diff (obviously). It was a bit fiddly and used various pry bars and hammers to get things lined up. Leave all bolts quite loose until they are all in place and then tighten fully. Good luck with it, you'll get there.

[travelrover]

Thanks boost51 and DiscoClax

After around 2 1/2 hours this afternoon and much fiddling, jacking prying with pry bars and tyre levers and whacking with hammers I have managed to get the rear bolts on each side located and nuts in loosely. Attempted to get the front ones in but they dont line up square at all. The mozzies were starting to get too bad and the sun was dropping behind the hills so time to pull the pin for another day. At least two bolts closer to completion now so gotta be happy with that I guess.

Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement, I hope I dont need to this again in a hurry. I have the rear bushes and A frame ball joint to do next. [biggrin].

[jboot51]

I reckon you are fighting the panhard rod.

With the rear a frame bushes, it may be easier to undo the 3 bolts on each side that hold the brackets to the chassis.
Also there are 4 bolts that hold the lower bracket on the balljoint to the diff housing. If you undo these and remove it all from the vehicle it will probably be save a lot of frustration.

With the 2x 1/2 inch UNF bolts that bolt the A frame arms to the ball joint housing, The manuals are incorrect on the torque value.
They state 176 Nm which will strip the bolt.
95/100 Nm is what I do them up to.

[travelrover]

Thanks jboot51

Ill wip the panhard rod off for my next session and see it that gives me some more flexibility. Thanks for the heads up on the a frame ball joint. I was thinking my big challenge there would be pressing out the old one and getting tbe new one in!

[jboot51]

With the ball joint you need to cut through the old mounting plate of the balljoint, near the bolt holes and remove the "ears" to mount it in the press.
My first balljoint removal required a 20T press.
I have since done it several times with my 6T press successfully.
When pressing the new ball joint in, I would recommend using some short guide bolts to get it lined up, as you really only get 1 shot at it.

[travelrover]

Yes i heard the ears needed to be cut off. I only have a 12 ton press so will see how we go but need to get tbe front end sorted first :-)

[PhilipA]

Its a bit late now but IMHO the secret is to do them one at a time. LOL

I have popped a ball joint using a bit of old railway line and the back of an axe.

Regards Philip A

[travelrover]

Ok i have now managed to get all radius arm bolts in a torqued up after removing the panhard rod. I was unable to get the panhard rod back on as one of the bushes got mangled in my earlier efforts. Fortunately I have new bushes. I am also unable to get the tie rod back on as the right side ball joint thread is a tight in a spot so the whole shaft is rotating. Will have a go with a wire brush and a small diamond or flat file. There is no torque value for the tie rod ends in the Land Rover manual.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Sounds like a job for the "ultimate tool"
https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2017/08/204.jpg
Shifter/hammer/podger bar combo

[jboot51]

40Nm for the tie rods. + what ever it needs to get the split pin in.

The panhard rod will go in easier if you put the wheels back on and drop the vehicle back on the ground.

[travelrover]

Thanks all for your insight and advice.

Job done now and all good. I did put the wheels back on and lower it, I guess it made it easier but still was an effort requiring quite a bit of leveraging with a tyre lever and 500 mm length of gal pipe to move everything about an inch to the left so the bolt/hole would line up [bigsmile]. I am not overly tall and could just reach the left side bolt while pulling on the lever mechanism like an oarsman with my bum sliding on the grass.

Might enjoy driving it for a while before attacking the A frame ball join and the rear bushes as they aren't too bad yet.

[travelrover]

A bit of an update, took it for a drive yesterday and again this morning. All seemed fine, in fact a little tighter than before replacing all the bushes which i guess this is the idea.

However this afternoon went for another drive around the same roads, mixture of gravel and sealed has now developed the death wobbles at around 85-90.

Checked everything when i got home and all seems fine. Any clues?

[fitzy]

If it just started, maybe panhard rod bushes, check with pry bar.
Could be swivel preloads, wheel balance.

[travelrover]

If it just started, maybe panhard rod bushes, check with pry bar.
Could be swivel preloads, wheel balance.Hi Fitzy

Yeah just started, new bushes in panhard rod, and radius arms, all torqued per manual. Wheels not rotated, nothing else changed.

[jboot51]

Take the wheels back off and then refit them. Could be a bit something that is not allowing them seat.


Could be the swivel bearing preload. May have been masked by worn bushes.
Leaky swivel ball seals is a telltale sign of poor preload.
With the steering arms disconnected, there should be resistance when turning the swivels by hand.
If they flopped back by themselves then preload needs doing.

[fitzy]

Swivels need doing every 20 years IMO, they take a fair bit of time to do correctly.
Double check everything else before doing swivels.
I once thought it was swivels but luckily only tyre balance

[travelrover]

Thanks guys

There is no leaking from the swivels. I'll have another check tomorrow and refit the wheels as suggested.

[bee utey]

Two things I've noticed on RRC front ends, basically the same animal as yours:

1. The Panhard rod bolt at the diff end needs to be seriously tight if there's any difference at all between the bush ID and the bolt diameter. Get someone to rock the steering wheel while you put your hand on the Panhard rod bushes, feel for movement. Maybe get a new bolt and nut and lube it before tightening.

2. Taking a thin shim off each side swivel top bearing is a pretty quick job if the preload is a tad loose, just support the swivel housing to reduce the oil loss while you do this.

[AK83]

Hi Fitzy

Yeah just started, new bushes in panhard rod, and radius arms, all torqued per manual. Wheels not rotated, nothing else changed.

You mentioned tie rods( I assume for track rod).
Did you also replace the tie rods with new ones, or just remove and replace(old tie rods ends)?

If new, ignore my next comment.
If removed and replaced(old tie rod end), I'd dare say tie rod ends.

I recently chased up some front end stuff chasing down my death wobbles(D1), and it turned out to be drag link tie rod ends.
They felt fine for the first 3/4 of their movement(tight and smooth), then they'd slip past that point.

To stop spinning tie rods when doing up the nut:
I use a large piece of wood as leverage for the 'top one', and for bottom mounted tie rod ends, I use the bottle jack on them with a small amount of pressure .. just enough to stop them spinning in their tapered collar, but not so much to bend the rod.

[travelrover]

You mentioned tie rods( I assume for track rod).
Did you also replace the tie rods with new ones, or just remove and replace(old tie rods ends)?

If new, ignore my next comment.
If removed and replaced(old tie rod end), I'd dare say tie rod ends.

I recently chased up some front end stuff chasing down my death wobbles(D1), and it turned out to be drag link tie rod ends.
They felt fine for the first 3/4 of their movement(tight and smooth), then they'd slip past that point.

To stop spinning tie rods when doing up the nut:
I use a large piece of wood as leverage for the 'top one', and for bottom mounted tie rod ends, I use the bottle jack on them with a small amount of pressure .. just enough to stop them spinning in their tapered collar, but not so much to bend the rod.Hi Ak83

Track rod yes, i didnt replace (or remove from the rod) removed as a unit and just cleaned up the thread on the rhs one which was being difficult but a couple of mins with a wire wheel sorted that out. The wobbles didnt appear on my first two runs, only the third run.

[AK83]

Death wobbles on my D1 recently drove me totally bonkers. One moment they nearly broke my wrist, the next moment on the same bit of road they wouldn't surface.
In some instances it was so bad, it literally felt like all the front wheel nuts were loose. Would usually start at 80 and I'd have to drop to 60 for them to dissipate and then totally disappear.

I was under the front and had to grab the drag link to empty out my oil leak(another story), and noticed the tight feeling tie rod ends which suddenly went loose as I dropped down and the tie rod ends kind'a then went slip-loose as they twisted.

After I released my oil catch, I went for a drive on a known bumpy road where no traffic would bother me(actually I'd bother them!!)
Got under the front of the car and made sure that I had the drag link 'straight', where the toe rod ends were aligned vertically and drove the bumpy road. No death wobbles up to about 85-90k/h(just above the sped limit and didn't want to push my luck).
Went back to the same spot, under car, and twisted the drag link so that the tie rod ends were both now at a 45-ish degree angle(where they felt like that slipped).
Got to about 60-ish and it started wobbling, and even tho I now knew what the problem was pushed to about 75-ish and wobbled enough for me to head straight to shop to get me some tie rod ends.
Got all 4(track rod too) but only fitted the two for the drag link first up.
Drove my normal route to work up and down about 4 times, and definitely no wobbles and more importantly zero kick when I hit the steel lateral joints in the freeway .. where the steering always kicked back a fair amount.

it wasn't the death wobbles I hated, it was their intermittency... would appear suddenly out of nowhere even on a smooth road ... just minding my own business, being a good motoring citizen driving just under the posted speed limit.
Hitting a bump or join in the road, I'd expect to get the wobbles, and it generally complied.

My thinking was that, because the tie rod ends need such a strong force to remove, maybe they've just been damaged enough to give you the same intermittent issue I was getting.

I checked them early on trying to locate the wobble issue I was getting, and they felt tight. Started looking at panhard rod, changed bushes(to polys)+ bolts, then changed bolts(again) and tightened up just a bit more.
It helped a bit, but the wobbles still came intermittently.
Then they got worse and I bought new radius bush bolts, and was planning to get the bushes soon too. Then I had to get under the car(when I noticed the slack when the ends were extended near their extremities).
Even after I removed them, they still felt tight to move, had to use a bar to get them to near 45° angle then I felt how they went loose.

[travelrover]

Death wobbles on my D1 recently drove me totally bonkers. One moment they nearly broke my wrist, the next moment on the same bit of road they wouldn't surface.
In some instances it was so bad, it literally felt like all the front wheel nuts were loose. Would usually start at 80 and I'd have to drop to 60 for them to dissipate and then totally disappear.

I was under the front and had to grab the drag link to empty out my oil leak(another story), and noticed the tight feeling tie rod ends which suddenly went loose as I dropped down and the tie rod ends kind'a then went slip-loose as they twisted.

After I released my oil catch, I went for a drive on a known bumpy road where no traffic would bother me(actually I'd bother them!!)
Got under the front of the car and made sure that I had the drag link 'straight', where the toe rod ends were aligned vertically and drove the bumpy road. No death wobbles up to about 85-90k/h(just above the sped limit and didn't want to push my luck).
Went back to the same spot, under car, and twisted the drag link so that the tie rod ends were both now at a 45-ish degree angle(where they felt like that slipped).
Got to about 60-ish and it started wobbling, and even tho I now knew what the problem was pushed to about 75-ish and wobbled enough for me to head straight to shop to get me some tie rod ends.
Got all 4(track rod too) but only fitted the two for the drag link first up.
Drove my normal route to work up and down about 4 times, and definitely no wobbles and more importantly zero kick when I hit the steel lateral joints in the freeway .. where the steering always kicked back a fair amount.

it wasn't the death wobbles I hated, it was their intermittency... would appear suddenly out of nowhere even on a smooth road ... just minding my own business, being a good motoring citizen driving just under the posted speed limit.
Hitting a bump or join in the road, I'd expect to get the wobbles, and it generally complied.

My thinking was that, because the tie rod ends need such a strong force to remove, maybe they've just been damaged enough to give you the same intermittent issue I was getting.

I checked them early on trying to locate the wobble issue I was getting, and they felt tight. Started looking at panhard rod, changed bushes(to polys)+ bolts, then changed bolts(again) and tightened up just a bit more.
It helped a bit, but the wobbles still came intermittently.
Then they got worse and I bought new radius bush bolts, and was planning to get the bushes soon too. Then I had to get under the car(when I noticed the slack when the ends were extended near their extremities).
Even after I removed them, they still felt tight to move, had to use a bar to get them to near 45° angle then I felt how they went loose.

Yup, that description pretty much covers what I was experiencing, but I only needed to slow to 75 kph (indicated, am sure is was going slower than that) for the wobbles to dissipate. What I cant work out is why it didn't present itself on the first two runs over the same roads or were they just working themselves a little loose? Are these the part numbers for what you replaced RTC5870 (lh thread) and RTC5869 (rh thread)?

I noticed that the local Supercheap sell replacement ball joints and was wondering if they would be a suitable replacement as they are in stock according to their website but they seem more expensive than OEM and I have never heard of any of the brands?

Cheers - Simon

[Disco-tastic]

Sounds like a job for the "ultimate tool"...

I thought you were about to offer your services mitch... [emoji13]

[AK83]

I haven't done my trackrod yet .. only the drag link.
D1 may or may not be different to Defer, so can't help re part types or numbers.
But on the D1, the drag link uses one normal thread and one LH thread.

I remember reading that the defender still used the balljoint on the drop arm for the drag link(same as early RRC used), whereas the D1 uses tie rod ends at both ends of the drag link.

But just having a look at an online parts list, it does seem that you need one normal threaded type and one LH threaded type(RTC5870).
Never makes sense to me why LR bother to make them different to the D1 after all they are basically the same vehicle in that sense.
The normal thread ball joint (RTC5869) is the same one used on the D1 at both ends of the track rod. And the LH thread one(RTC5870) is the one used on the drag link on the D1.

Only reason I haven't fitted mine yet is that the drag like ends turned out to be the problem
.. and I'm going to leave it till I get the chance to get a wheel alignment booked and get wheel alignment chap to fit them.
ie. just do it once, and do it the easy way ... someone else can stuff around with it! :p

[jboot51]

I have looked at supercheap autos website and have never heardof thoses brands.
Best to stick with lemforder or trw.

[donh54]

I have looked at supercheap autos website and have never heardof thoses brands.
Best to stick with lemforder or trw.

Order them from Mario (Roverlord), you'll get good ones, and they'll probably arrive quicker than you can drive to Supercheap, anyway! [bigsmile]

[travelrover]

I finally got some time to look under the vehicle and particularly at the panhard rod and the right hand side seemed to have a little movement in it when i stuck the crow bar in the space above the bush (even though it was to the correct torque).

Everything else seemed to have no movement. So I removed the wheel and tightened it up some more. It has certainly made a difference though I am still getting the speed wobbles at around 85-90 but not as bad as previously.

I was concerned that I may over-tighten the panhard rod nut/bolt if i kept going. Is this possible or should I just keep tightening until it wont move or I cant move it?

[PhilipA]

I was concerned that I may over-tighten the panhard rod nut/bolt if i kept going. Is this possible or should I just keep tightening until it wont move or I cant move it?

It should be VERY tight so that the inner sleeve will not move at all and the bush take up the movement in shear.
If the inner sleeve is worn then this may mean the arms of the bracket will be bent inwards and the rod will be difficult to remove when the time comes so check out the clearance. Best to then fit new bushes and new bolts and nuts.
Obviously it should be tightened with the vehicle on it wheels and in normal driving height.

Regards Philip A

[travelrover]

It should be VERY tight so that the inner sleeve will not move at all and the bush take up the movement in shear.
If the inner sleeve is worn then this may mean the arms of the bracket will be bent inwards and the rod will be difficult to remove when the time comes so check out the clearance. Best to then fit new bushes and new bolts and nuts.
Obviously it should be tightened with the vehicle on it wheels and in normal driving height.

Regards Philip AThanks Philip

They are new bushes, so i guess i need to to tighten more.

Cheers Simon

[travelrover]

I finally had some time on the weekend to get under the Tdi300 with the wheels on the ground and tighten everything best i could with the limited clearance/leverage. There was some more scope for tightening the panhard rod on the drivers side. This has certainly made a difference and while there is a barley discernible wobble still around 85-90 you wouldn't notice it unless you were looking for it. I will try and get it on a hoist where there will be more leverage/clearance at a local mechanic and get things even tighter if I get a chance.

As part of my ongoing 'maintenance' and while I had a willing assistant for a change (and after two disastrous attempts with one man bleed kits) I bleed the brakes after having recently replaced the rear rotors and pads. There was a lot of crud in the system, but the pedal pressure was better but still not brilliant. By comparison my Td5 pedal is rock solid and the Tdi300 is still a little spongy.

128998

Sorry about the orientation.. (wasted too much time trying to rotate it through 90)

There are no leaks from anywhere in the system that i can see and the fluid level has never moved since i bought it, but how do i get the pedal pressure more like the Td5? It was actually better before the new rotors/pads went on. Do I need to bleed the entire system again? I followed the workshop manual which said to do the left front first, then right front before left rear and right rear.

Any thoughts?

[PhilipA]

I hope you have lots more fluid from the brakes than that.

You should do a full flush if your fluid looks like that so that you get nice clear green fluid.

Your Master cylinder is probably on the way out with fluid like that so that may explain the sponginess.

I am not familiar with the pedal feel of a Defender but D2 calipers are a completely different design. I can attest that a RRC classic has a less sensitive feel than a D2 although I think Defender front calipers are different.

[travelrover]

I hope you have lots more fluid from the brakes than that.

You should do a full flush if your fluid looks like that so that you get nice clear green fluid.

Your Master cylinder is probably on the way out with fluid like that so that may explain the sponginess.

I am not familiar with the pedal feel of a Defender but D2 calipers are a completely different design. I can attest that a RRC classic has a less sensitive feel than a D2 although I think Defender front calipers are different.


Hi PhilipA, I just bleed until there was clean fluid and no bubbles coming through. I will do a complete flush when I have some more time which unfortunately will not be for a few weeks now.