Lithium Start Battery

[Witchdoctor]

I hope there are some smart members that can set me right.

Can i swap out my lead acid start battery for an equivalent voltage, CCA & charge rate Lithium?
Looking to save some weight in my little truck.

Cheers
Dave

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave, correct me here if I have this wrong, but from memory ( and my memory is not that good ) you have a DC/DC charger charging your Lithium batteries in the tray.

If this is correct, then the DC/DC device MUST BE ignition switched, not voltage level switched.

Other than that, all should be fine.

[weeds]

I hope there are some smart members that can set me right.

Can i swap out my lead acid start battery for an equivalent voltage, CCA & charge rate Lithium?
Looking to save some weight in my little truck.

Cheers
Dave

Be interested in your selection

[Witchdoctor]

drivesafe,

I do have a DC2DC charger to charge my AGM duel battery.
As the DC2Dc charger can also charge Lithium I'm looking to start replacing all my batteries to Lithium starting with the start battery then the duel.
Im hoping the Lithium starter can be a direct drop in replacement for the lead acid starter without any issues.

Since posting i have found a company that can supply me a Lithium starter that they say is a drop in no issues.
Battery weighs 3.4Kg & about half the size of the lead acid starter.
I have also sourced a Lithium duel that is 120Ah with the same footprint as a 120Ah Fullriver, it weighs 10Kg.

Cheers
Dave

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave, you will still need to have the DC/DC device Ignition switched.


The reason is that a lithium battery has a settled voltage of 13+ volts and it will maintain that voltage over most of it’s discharge cycle.


It will only begin to drop in voltage as the battery nears 20% SoC.


Because the automatic cut-out ( turn off ) voltage level of most DC/DC devices is 12.7v, the settled voltage level of a lithium is too high and if the DC/DC is set to voltage monitoring instead of Ignition, the DC/DC will remain on, flattening your cranking battery.

Again, other than that, it should still be a straight changeover for the cranking battery.

[Witchdoctor]

Thanks safedrive,

Im yet to run the ignition switch wire on the DC2DC charger but it has now gone to top of the list.
You have made me feel loads better about stepping up to Lithium batteries.

Cheers
Dave

[DiscoMick]

So does that mean if you don't have a DC-DC then a lithium starting battery should just drop straight in?
If it's half the size that should save a fair bit of space.
Are there any venting or cooling issues with using lithium?
Can I also ask about the price comparison?

[Witchdoctor]

DiscoMick,

Your on track.
The only issue is the cost. The Lithium starter I'm looking at is around $650.
The pick up is all around the weight, it weighs 3.4Kg compared to 27Kg's for my current starter.
Then I'm running a 33Kg AGM duel, by changing this to Lithium that weighs 10.2Kg's.

There are other +'s when converting to Lithium but the cost is by far the biggest negative to get past.

Cheers
Dave

[drivesafe]

HI Dave, do you have specs for the lithium batteries you are considering buying?


The reason I ask is that there is a lot of misinformation about what size lithium battery can replace what size lead acid battery.


For instance, a considerably smaller lithium battery can be used as a starting battery, because you only require a large current supply for a very short time, and this is something the correct type of lithium battery is ideal for.


Whereas, if you need a 120Ah lead acid battery to meet your camping needs, you need the exact same size lithium battery, to be able to meet the same needs.


There is a lot B/S being used to market lithium batteries, particularly when relating to the size replacement required.


A 100Ah AGM battery will give you roughly 80Ah of usable capacity, and a 100Ah lithium battery will also give you no more than 80Ah of usable battery capacity.

[Witchdoctor]

safedrive

850CCA with 1000CCA pulse discharge for 3sec
60Ah lead-acid equivalent
125x165x170mm
Onboard BMS

These guys have been involved in the battery for 17 years

Hows that sound?

Cheers
Dave

[DiscoMick]

850 CCA sounds good.

[drivesafe]

safedrive

850CCA with 1000CCA pulse discharge for 3sec
60Ah lead-acid equivalent
125x165x170mm
Onboard BMS

These guys have been involved in the battery for 17 years

Hows that sound?

Cheers
Dave
That info is fine for a cranking battery replacement, but do you have specs for your intended auxiliary battery replacement.

Also not sure what the 17 years is about. Lithium batteries have only been used in RV situations for about 6 years.

[Skiboy]

A sort of thread hijack - drivesafe are you saying that the Li batteries are a good replacement for cranking but probably not worth the $ for aux battery?

I have just killed a second set of Optima blue tops in my 4x4. RRC running after market injection with large warn winch and bits hanging of the Aux that is solenoid ign linked to the main battery (looking at getting one of your USI-160 units).

So will your USI 160 work well with Li cranking battery and a AGM aux battery?

My worry is that Li good for starting but might not be much help when doing long winches.

Skiboy

[Witchdoctor]

drivesafe,

How do these numbers look for a duel battery?

Enerdrive are happy with the partnership between the DC2DC charger & this battery.

Specifications 12V-120Ah
Voltage 12.8 V
Nominal Capacity (C/5, 23°C) 120 Ah
Weight (approximate) 15.8kg
Dimension incl. Terminals(LxWxH) 260 x 172 x 225 mm
Terminals, Female-Threaded M8 x 1.0
Standard Discharge
@ 27°C
Cont. Current
Rate 40-50A
Max. Cont
Current Rate 80-100A
Peak current
Rate 200-250A (<1s)
Cut-off Voltage 9-10V
Standard Charge
Charge Voltage 14.6-14.8 V
Recommended 20-40A

Skidboy, the only reason I'm going to Lithium is the great weight savings rather than anything else as i have said. Under the passengers seat is 60Kg of lead, by changing to Lithium that will be 19.2Kg's thats an extra 50Lt's of fuel or water or recovery gear.

Lithium is not for everyone just need to do your own homework to see if its for you & your application.

Cheers
Dave

[drivesafe]

Hi Skiboy, first off, your winch and anything else that is only used while the motor is running, should be connected to the cranking battery, and reason for this is that it gives you a shorter cable distance from the alternator, which means you will have a higher voltage at the device.


A higher voltage on any DC appliance means the appliance does not have to work as had to do the job it was designed for.


Next, personally I would use two Yellowtop batteries, not Bluetops.


In your case, I would not change to lithiums because you can stuff them just as easily and they are far dearer to replace.


And you must have a problem somewhere, either in your system or how you operate it and not having a go at you, but you would be better trying to resolve your existing problem first, regardless of what you replace your existing batteries with.


Sorry mate, not much help!

[drivesafe]

Hi again Dave and those specs sound fine.

[Skiboy]

Hi Skiboy, first off, your winch and anything else that is only used while the motor is running, should be connected to the cranking battery, and reason for this is that it gives you a shorter cable distance from the alternator, which means you will have a higher voltage at the device.

A higher voltage on any DC appliance means the appliance does not have to work as had to do the job it was designed for.

Next, personally I would use two Yellowtop batteries, not Bluetops.

In your case, I would not change to lithiums because you can stuff them just as easily and they are far dearer to replace.

And you must have a problem somewhere, either in your system or how you operate it and not having a go at you, but you would be better trying to resolve your existing problem first, regardless of what you replace your existing batteries with.

Sorry mate, not much help!
Drivesafe - very useful. And agree need to fix underlying problems which is part of why looking at your USI60 module but also considering the Li option mentioned here.

Dave - I have the same weight issue as the truck is a Stage One (defender) body so 2x batteries under the seat drivers side.
Also re winch - as side by side only difference is 6inches of wire larger than the alt wire between the two for Winch connection.

I had them on solar charge as this is an infrequent use vehicle but the solar controller buggered up while OS for a few months and by the time I realized it was not switching on battery had been drained enough for some time that not holding a full charge now.

I have a digital monitor attached to both batteries - main was 12.9 after driving half hour this morning - charge rate 13.5 to 14 odd. The main starter battery will prob only be 12.2-12.3V by time I go home tonight and drops to just over 10v while cranking to start. As a result the after market computer give up until the ignition key let go then it will get enough to turn on and fire the engine (if still spinning slightly). This is the problem I am trying to solve.

Why do you say yellow Optimas? The red is for cranking, blue marine and yellow is aux. So why would you go two yellows? My understating was the Blue were more robust and hence good for serious 4x4.

I do take the point about replacement cost - I have a generic AGM under my D2 which costs less and lasted 7 years as AUX - make me wonder if I should go cheap and suffer the weight for cost benefit.

Skiboy

[PhilipA]

If you had a D2 V8 , your batteries would be worth more than the car!
So keep mum about them as someone may start a new career stealing batteries.
Regards Philip A

[Skiboy]

If you had a D2 V8 , your batteries would be worth more than the car!
So keep mum about them as someone may start a new career stealing batteries.
Regards Philip A
Too true and yes I also have a D2 V8 Philip A so I know what you mean

[Witchdoctor]

Ok

The dead has been done, the Lithium Starter has been ordered & on its way from NSW, I'm hoping for delivery this week.
I just need to run the ignition wire to the DC2DC charger & install new starter.

Should be easy!

May have some info to share over the weekend.

Cheers
Dave

[DiscoMick]

How was the cost - double?

[Witchdoctor]

How was the cost - double?

New Lithium starter was $700 delivered from a place in Sydney.

[robert42]

New Lithium starter was $700 delivered from a place in Sydney.

The reason I ask is Lithiums dont like to be charged over 13.6 ,And dont like under bonet heat . If charged with a standed Alt.@ 14.2 +, 2 years is all you may get from it. Ive have Lithium batterys and have had for the last 7 + years 2, 40 amph and 2, 200 amph for the van. When home I use the 200s in a 24 volt system on the grany flat as off grid use . Ive started a V8 tojo that had a dead flat battery with the little 40 amph one and it did it easy as. Picked the 40s up on ebay second hand 5-6 years back 50$ each,big smile , use the 40 on the 20hp 4 stroke Honda outboard ,I can switch the charge off on that as its not reg. ... Dont belive all that battery seller tell you about Lithium batterys... Its like fish stories..

Bob...

[Witchdoctor]

Thanks Bob,

You are missing the point for me. I can afford the coin for the battery, what i cannot afford is the weight of the lead acid starter of the lump of lead for a duel.
Now there are smarter battery people on this forum than me, can of worms moment.

The manufacturer or reseller gives his product a 2 year warranty & as a buyer i will listen to the information he has supplied, making an informed choice from that.

Company words (Verbatim) Do not charge your X brand Lithium battery over 14.8V or drain it below 8V as this will void the warranty.

Now my DC2DC charger is telling me that the start battery is only receiving 14.6V, sounds safe to me.

As i have said on any multiple times i need to reduce the weight in my 90 & happy to purchase Lithium.
The other thing i have said, Lithium is not for everyone, get informed & buy for your purpose.

Now i just r-checked your post, battery under the bonnet & Heaven for bid HEAT. Now i have no idea what page your on, but this post was posted on the Defenders page. Now just incase some people have not taken the time to see where their battery is located in their Defender. It is under the SEAT! No engine heat!

Enjoy your weekend

Dave

[Witchdoctor]

A few images of this little Lithium starter battery.

The shackle is a 4.74T for size comparison
Battery size 125mm x 165mm x 170mm

Cheers

Dave

[DiscoMick]

That would certainly save a huge amount of space and weight under the seat.

[Witchdoctor]

Installed & happy with the results.

Cheers
Dave

[Witchdoctor]

Just an update for those that are interested.

Ive had the Lithium starter in the 90 for a week now and all is going to plan, no issues and starting every day wether i leave i leave it in the yard (we have had some very cool nights this week) or in the warm shed.

Very happy with my purchase. Bring on the deep cycle Lithium real soon.

Cheers
Dave

[karlz]

... all is going to plan, ...(we have had some very cool nights this week) or in the warm shed....
...
Cheers
Dave

I have a KTM 500 with a lithium battery.
On cold mornings its not an instant start (< 15C), the manual advises to "warm up the battery" by a series of 5 second bursts, wait 30 seconds & repeat.

This video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLS6iut15TA) explains it.

[PhilipA]

very interesting!
Regards Philip A

[Janke]

Hey Witchdoctor. Who did you buy the battery from? Cheers

[Witchdoctor]

Hi Janki,

Contact Vic regarding these Lithium batteries.

02 80114776

http://www.lithiumax.com.au

Cheers
Dave