Lead Crystal deep cycle batteries

[loanrangie]

Could be a real game changer -

Lead Crystal Deep Cycle Battery (by Betta Batteries) - GlobalSat (http://globalsat.com.au/product/lead-crystal-battery/)

[drivesafe]

Hi Loanragie, and yes they are a game changer.

I bought a number of them at the beginning of the year for testing and I am very impressed.

One of their biggest advantages is that they can be left in any state of charge indefinitely and with no detrimental effect on the battery.

They are actually delivered with a sticker on them indicating when the battery was last charged, and some of the batteries I bought were last charged nearly 12 months earlier.

This one feature alone makes Lead Crystal batteries ideal for RV use, particularly for use as house batteries in caravans and camper trailers, that are left unused for long periods of time, between trips.

They are also “UNDER-RATED”, meaning they are actually rated at a lower Ah than they can provide.

Lead Acid deep cycle batteries have their Ah rated by testing at C20 loads, where as a Lead Crystal battery's marked Ah is rated using C10 loads. When tested using C20 loads, they are much better than equivalent lead acid batteries.

Another big advantage is that they can be CONTINUALLY discharge to 0% SoC ( 10.5v ) many hundreds of times.

I have been cycling a number of these batteries down to 0% SoC and then charging them with different recharge voltages and they can be easily fully recharged with voltages as low as 13.6v. I have not bothered charging them with lower voltages as yet.

Here are some examples of Ah ratings.

6-CNFJ-100, their standard capacity 100Ah ( C10 rate ) battery has a C20 rating of 110Ah.
Recommended Retail price of $550

6-EVFJ-100, their HIGH capacity 100Ah ( C3 rate ) battery has a C20 rating of 124Ah.
Recommended Retail price of $695.

While these batteries can be used in many Land Rover applications, I now have a 65Ah Lead Crystal battery in my L322 RR, but there is no suitable sizes for under bonnet use in a D3 or D4.

BTW, I will soon be selling these batteries.

[Eevo]

looks good

[DiscoMick]

This paper is an interesting comparison, although I'm not sure I understand it all.

http://uksim.info/uksim2015/data/8713a444.pdf

[Wraithe]

I knew a guy in Perth, converting lead batteries to lead crystal, about 35 years ago...

He was not allowed to install them in cars or convert a battery to be used in a car..

Of course the end result was, he was put out of business...

Its about time someone is doing this commercial, some too lazy to do my own, can now buy them...

[workingonit]

Some interesting back and forth discussion in the solar power arena

Lead Crystal batteries? — northernarizona-windandsun (http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/22483/lead-crystal-batteries)

[Robmacca]

Hopefully over time the prices will slowly reduce to a level more affordable to the average person......

Any idea as to how long these batteries will last when used in an Automotive situation as the Main &/or Aux ??

[DiscoMick]

I see one of those posts suggests 1500 cycles, but I'm not sure if that is the same application.
I like the idea of the electrolyte crystallising, so spills are less possible. Lower weight is a plus in mobile operations.
Also good is the idea of the battery being able to recover from being deeply discharged to a level which would damage other batteries. This could be helpful for example during extended camping in overcast weather when a fridge pulls the voltage right down. It should then recover with solar.
Price is an issue course but mass production should fix that.
It's good to see new battery technologies coming through.

[Wraithe]

I see one of those posts suggests 1500 cycles, but I'm not sure if that is the same application.
I like the idea of the electrolyte crystallising, so spills are less possible. Lower weight is a plus in mobile operations.
Also good is the idea of the battery being able to recover from being deeply discharged to a level which would damage other batteries. This could be helpful for example during extended camping in overcast weather when a fridge pulls the voltage right down. It should then recover with solar.
Price is an issue course but mass production should fix that.
It's good to see new battery technologies coming through.

Mick, This may interest you... When I read through some information on these(and peoples comments), I came across this about cycling the batteries...

The guy compared a standard lead acid and a lead crystal battery...

Watch the video, its pretty good looking at the results and having an understanding of the failings of standard batteries, the lead crystal does perform well...

T4D #44 - Lead Crystal vs Lead Acid battery, final results. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O45eLd5YotM)

[drivesafe]

Hi Wrathe and sorry mate but that guy had no idea what he was talking about or what he can safely do with a conventional AGM.


First off he states that you should never discharge a battery below 50%, but many deep cycle battery manufacturers specifically state that their batteries, AGM or Wet Cell, can be SAFELY discharged down to 20% SoC.


Next, most lead acid battery should never be cycled below 20% SoC or 11.56v. Cycling them to 0% SoC or 10.5v will dramatically shorten the life span of most lead acid batteries.


AGMs were never designed to be discharged down to 0V and taking any lead acid battery to 0v is the quickest way to destroy them and to be completely candid, I am very surprised that he got as many cycles from that AGM before it was destroyed.


As for cycling the LEAD CRYSTAL battery down to 0v, well why would you need to do so. Nearly all 12v appliances and devices are rated to operate at no lower than 10.5v, the level of a flat lead acid battery.


Furthermore, I have been testing some lead crystal batteries for around 6 months now and I have been cycling them from fully charged to 0% SoC or 10.5v and I am getting far better results then he is.

So keeping the minimum discharge voltage to no lower than 10.5v appeared to be far better for lead crystal batteries than discharging them to 0V.

[Wraithe]

I was under the impression that he was seeing what it would take to destroy the battery...
As he pointed out, you wouldn't normally do this to a battery...

The idea of intentionally dropping a battery to 0v is the same as throwing it in the paddock and coming back 6 months later and expecting it to start the tractor...

I have killed a few batteries on electric fence units... ie set them up, a couple of months later, move the bulls and totally forget about turning unit off and worst of all, leaving it there til next year and wondering why a perfectly good, brand new battery is good for sinkers only...

[drivesafe]

Hi again Wrathe, what is the point of destroying a battery, particularly in the case of the AGM, where he was deliberately using the battery outside the manufacturer’s specified operating limits.


Again, the “experiment” was pointless as it actually proved nothing that could be of value in real life use of either battery.

[drivesafe]

Some interesting back and forth discussion in the solar power arena

Lead Crystal batteries? — northernarizona-windandsun (http://forum.solar-electric.com/discussion/22483/lead-crystal-batteries)
Hi Workingonit, I was sus about the derating of the cycle rates mentioned in the last post in that thread.


This is one of those cases of FAKE NEWS. I spoke to the owner of lead crystal batteries and BettaBatteries, and he informed me that there was no downgrading of any of the cycle rate info for any of their batteries.


Also, be careful of some of the “expert” info posted in that thread. Most of the “experts” are over night experts and have little real knowledge about automotive electrics or how DC circuits work.


An example is the test one the posters carried out, where measured both the voltage and current being draw by a DC/DC device and found that as the supply voltage dropped, the supply current increased, which is correct.


But then through a total lack of any form of real knowledge of how DC circuits actually work, he declares that because the input current draw of a DC/DC device rises as the input voltage drops, ALL DC DEVICES WILL CAUSE THEIR CURRENT DRAW TO INCREASE AS THE VOLTAGE DROPS.


This is the exact the reverse of how almost all other DC devices behave when voltages in a DC circuit drops. As the supply voltage in any DC circuit reduces, so does the current draw of most DC device connected to that supply voltage.


This is the primary reason behind why new vehicles have variable voltage alternator operations. When a motor is under load, like when accelerating, the alternator’s output voltage is reduced, and this voltage reduction will cause the current draw of any devices connect to the vehicle’s 12v system, to reduce.


A reduction of the current load being applied to the alternator means the alternator will require less energy from the motor, which then means the motor will use less fuel, which ultimately means the motor will produce less exhaust emissions.


There are two DC devices that respond in reverse to how most other DC devices react to dropping voltage, and these are 12v to 240vac inverters and 12v to 12v converters ( DC/DC devices ). Both of these types of devices work to maintain a constant voltage and current output and to do so when the input voltage drops, these device have to draw more current to compensate for the dropping voltage.


So while the poster was not intentionally trying to mislead, he still got it totally wrong and it is all to common instances like this that can make “expert” info sourced from the wrong places on the internet more useless than helpful.

[DiscoMick]

I see one of the criticisms of the $46 billion contract awarded to the French to build our next 12 submarines is they chose to go with conventional rather than lithium batteries, which could have saved weight and allowed deeper discharges and longer operating periods. Seems strange.
'Wildly ambitious' submarine plan could mean no fleet for two decades Navy may be without submarine fleet for two decades due to replacement plan, experts say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://ab.co/2wWcKfo) - via @abcnews

[Leo109]

They are also UNRATED, meaning they are actually rated at a lower Ah than they can provide.

Lead Acid deep cycle batteries have their Ah rated by testing at C20 loads, where as a Lead Crystal battery's marked Ah is rated using C10 loads. When tested using C20 loads, they are much better than equivalent lead acid batteries.
Hi drivesafe,

I presume you meant UNDERRATED rather than unrated? That is, they're rated at the C10 rather than the more common C20 Ah rating?

[drivesafe]

Thanks Ian, that is what it should have been.

[DiscoMick]

I see Lifestyle campers here in Brisbane are fitting lead crystal batteries to their vans. Adds to the cost, but seems a good move.

[drivesafe]

Yep, a number of caravan manufacturers are switching to Lead Crystal batteries.

Main reason seems to be for longevity!

[~Rich~]

So Tim, will your Isolators work with Lead Crystal batteries?

[drivesafe]

So Tim, will your Isolators work with Lead Crystal batteries?
Hi Rich and "NO".


Lead Crystal batteries can not be charged using any standard isolator, including mine.


They have to be charged with a DC/DC device that has a charge capacity of at least 30% of the battery’s capacity, and one that can charge at around 15.1v, or a Crystal Battery will not charge properly.


So if you are looking at say, a 100Ah Lead Crystal Battery, you need something like a Sterling BB1230 Battery to Battery ( DC/DC ) charger.


The BB1230 chargers are a 30 amp unit with a custom setting that can be programmed to charge Lead Cristal Batteries at their preferred charging voltage.


Failing to charge these batteries correctly dramatically shortens their operating lifespan.


I only sell them now as a complete system, with the batteries and correct AC charger and/or correct Battery to Battery charger.


When set up properly, Lead Crystal batteries are brilliant, but unfortunately, to many people have been given ( and are still being given ) the wrong charging info.

[Robmacca]

Hey Tim...

Just wondering if u have watched these Youtube clips on Lead-Crystal and if so, what's your take on it?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-M9zrXSv64&t=47s


I haven't yet watched this one as I've only just seen it pop up, but I assume its in relation the previous one.... so I would throw it up as well...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J--xiiDKEWw



Hi Rich and "NO".


Lead Crystal batteries can not be charged using any standard isolator, including mine.


They have to be charged with a DC/DC device that has a charge capacity of at least 30% of the battery’s capacity, and one that can charge at around 15.1v, or a Crystal Battery will not charge properly.


So if you are looking at say, a 100Ah Lead Crystal Battery, you need something like a Sterling BB1230 Battery to Battery ( DC/DC ) charger.


The BB1230 chargers are a 30 amp unit with a custom setting that can be programmed to charge Lead Cristal Batteries at their preferred charging voltage.


Failing to charge these batteries correctly dramatically shortens their operating lifespan.


I only sell them now as a complete system, with the batteries and correct AC charger and/or correct Battery to Battery charger.


When set up properly, Lead Crystal batteries are brilliant, but unfortunately, to many people have been given ( and are still being given ) the wrong charging info.

[drivesafe]

Hi Rob and that clown is one of the greatest con artist to ever make a video about anything to do with vehicle electrics.

He has no idea what he is talking about. In one of his videos, he taps his hand on the Air conditioner compressor and states that this is the alternator on his Toyota.

Please note, there is a very expensive court case happening right now, and until it reaches it’s conclusion, very little can be stated about Lead Crystal batteries. But ignore that creep and his misinformation.

[Robmacca]

Hi Rob and that clown is one of the greatest con artist to ever make a video about anything to do with vehicle electrics.

He has no idea what he is talking about. In one of his videos, he taps his hand on the Air conditioner compressor and states that this is the alternator on his Toyota.

Please note, there is a very expensive court case happening right now, and until it reaches it’s conclusion, very little can be stated about Lead Crystal batteries. But ignore that creep and his misinformation.

Yeah I understand that, but I was more interested in what the person he was speaking to was saying... whether what he was talking about was valid or not. Apparently he's high up on the food chain for Betta batteries...

[iPom]

Hi Rob and that clown is one of the greatest con artist to ever make a video about anything to do with vehicle electrics.

He has no idea what he is talking about. In one of his videos, he taps his hand on the Air conditioner compressor and states that this is the alternator on his Toyota.

Please note, there is a very expensive court case happening right now, and until it reaches it’s conclusion, very little can be stated about Lead Crystal batteries. But ignore that creep and his misinformation.

Yep, my thoughts exactly Tim ........

[cripesamighty]

I sent ASPW a link to this thread and some other lead-crystal battery links last year to see if he was aware of other, possibly better ways to set up the electrics on his Troopy. I got a long email back which poo-poo'd what I had sent him and was told that he had been doing 4WD electrics for a long time, had an expert working on his car, and that forums and their conflicting opinions were not useful to him at that stage.

Chickens...roosting....or some-such me now thinks. Good luck dude!

[drivesafe]

I got a long email back which poo-poo'd what I had sent him and was told that he had been doing 4WD electrics for a long time, had an expert working on his car, and that forums and their conflicting opinions were not useful to him at that stage.
And the reason "opinions" are not useful to him is because he is a legion in his own mind.

I communicate with Jason, from the first video, on a fairly regular basis and the info in that first video is next to useless as it is nothing more than a promo for a product, and it does NOT go into specific details of how the product needs to be handled to be able to get the best from that product.

[prelude]

Any chance we can know / find out what this court case is about?

Also, some information given by the interviewee in the video is quite useful like for example that lead crystal is NOT advised as a crank battery.

Lastly, I am most curious about the claims regarding lead crystal beeing a form of AGM. Allow me to be clear, what we call an AGM these days is NOT what a lead crystal battery is, but the concept of AGM is used, in a different way, to construct a lead crystal battery.

Thanks!

-P

[PhilipA]

I am now curious about the practical issues of Lead Crystal vs Lithium seeing you need a specific charger for LC.
now that lithium has decreased in price to mid 600s for 100 AH how does LC compete.?

Drivesafe have you tested any of the new entrants in Lithium that are selling for Mid 600s?

regards Philip A

[drivesafe]

Hi Philip and no, I have not tested any of these cheap Lithiums.

I was very interested when they first started selling here, but there are now a lot of complaints about the performance of these batteries and the lack of support from the suppliers, so I’m happy I did not touch them.

Do some googling about these “cheap” Lithiums.

The main complaint seems to be about their actual capacity.

One of the cheapos was marketed as a 120Ah, then all of a sudden it is now a 100Ah Battery.

The weights of these batteries also don’t match the “claimed” Ah. They are just way to light for the “claimed” Ah

[PhilipA]

I am a fan of lithium.
I bought a 22AH lithium for my wife's golf buggy as she was always complaining about the 14Kg weight of her Sonnenshein 24AH battery.
I have had it for about a year and it is performing well covering 27 holes.
It had a hiccup a month or so ago when it died at 18 holes.
I investigated and it turned out that my expensive NOCO battery charger( with Lithium setting) , which I used to replace the $5 charger it came with had died.
I bought some heat sink from Jaycar and attached it to the cheapo charger and it has been going great guns ever since. And it only weighs about 2.5 Kg so has stopped the weight complaints.
Regards Philip A

[drivesafe]

Hi Phillip, it is actually very commonplace for 230vac battery chargers to have a short life when using them to charge Lithium batteries, even when the charger has a Lithium setting.

Lithium batteries are proving to be very had on most makes of 230vac battery chargers.

[Eevo]

why is it hard on the charger?

[drivesafe]

why is it hard on the charger?
Hi Eevo, I don’t know and it is obvious many of the battery charger manufacturers don’t know.

I imagine that once they sort it out, they will up grade their chargers.

[Eevo]

Hi Eevo, I don’t know and it is obvious many of the battery charger manufacturers don’t know.

I imagine that once they sort it out, they will up grade their chargers.

well, some thoughts, lithium batteries can take a huge current, which the charger isnt designed for?

on the other hand, internal resistance is low, so the charger should have to work less hard.

[bee utey]

A battery's low internal resistance means that a charger puts out full current for longer as the terminal voltage doesn't quickly rise towards the regulated maximum voltage of the charger. If a charger had a temp sensor that either started a cooling fan or reduced current it would cope much better.

[prelude]

I agree; this is simply a design flaw. Most chargers / power supplies can not output full power for longer periods of time. Undersized cooling, regulators and transformers (though most employ switching power supplies these days) are 99% of the problems with any charger / supply.

Cheers,
-P

[drivesafe]

As I posted earlier, I have no idea why there is a problem, and, without naming brands, I have heard of some well known brands having problems charging lithium’s.

I have been working with and testing lithium batteries since 2012 and I have only used Sterling battery chargers, and to date, I have not had a single problem.

I know of quite a few people ( including two AULRO members ) who have had problems with other brands of battery chargers when trying to charge lithium batteries, and they have changed over to a Sterling charger and have not looked back.

[drivesafe]

There is a RV company that appears regularly on the AULRO Facebook page, and they changed over to Sterling some time ago and the Sterling Battery to Battery chargers improved their setups over what the were achieving with a well known brand they had been using.

[DiscoMick]

Could it be a case of the charger not having an effective fan to cool it for the higher charge required by lithiums?

[drivesafe]

Could it be a case of the charger not having an effective fan to cool it for the higher charge required by lithiums?
Optima and Odessey batteries draw current similar to lithium’s while charging, and yet they cause no problems.

I as posted earlier, I have no idea why there is a problem with charging lithium batteries, but there is with some some brands of chargers.

[Aussie Jeepster]

Unfortunately, the link does not go anywhere, but it appears the court case might be over.

151316

[Aussie Jeepster]

Any chance we can know / find out what this court case is about?

Also, some information given by the interviewee in the video is quite useful like for example that lead crystal is NOT advised as a crank battery.

Lastly, I am most curious about the claims regarding lead crystal beeing a form of AGM. Allow me to be clear, what we call an AGM these days is NOT what a lead crystal battery is, but the concept of AGM is used, in a different way, to construct a lead crystal battery.

Thanks!

-P
Looks like the case is over, but the link does not work and provides no additional info.
151317

[prelude]

So, I was wathcing ASPW live stream and someone put forth, rightly so, why he switched to lithium all of a sudden and not lead crystal anymore on his new build. His argument was weight, and I can see that, but he also mentioned something about lawyers and not being able to talk about it. I hate this kinda crap but I can understand he does not want to put his neck on the line. I could not let this one go though and I started doing some digging into the how's and what's about this lawsuit. I can't find ANY pertinent information so if anyone here has access down under to some sort of public records thingy I don't know about regarding this court case, I would welcome it :)

In any case, since betta batteries seems to be a dutch company, of all places, I can and did do some local digging. Where do I begin...

First of all, let me start of by saying that I do like lead crystal batteries and from what I have been able to find I am not the only one. Testing by various people have confirmed the tech does work quite well and it would be a shame that because of one problematic supplier we would be robbed of the chance of using this tech.

Anyway, betta batteries. I know next to nothing about the australian side of things so if anyone, like I mentioned, would care to do the same (public) digging, nice!

Let's go down the rabbit hole and try and find where these babies come from; spoiler alert: china.

When you visit the site bettabatteries.com.au you get redirected to www.leadcrystalbatteries.com.au. This domain no longer seems to exists but on it's parent site leadcrystalbatteries.com (http://leadcrystalbatteries.com) you will find that "green rhino" seems to be the company who actually produces the batteries or at least supplies them. Home - Green Rhino (https://greenrhino-energy.com/)
As we can see on this website under the news; they have acquired an exclusive global contract for crystal batteries. I did not check if "crystal" is indeed as they claim, registered. Digging around some more there is a nice PR post which can be found here Green Rhino Announces the Exclusive Global Contract for Lead Crystal Batteries (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/green-rhino-announces-the-exclusive-global-contract-for-lead-crystal-batteries-300921718.html) .
Reading this post we find that they have "Green Rhino Energy Solutions announced today that they entered into an exclusive global distribution contract and partnership for the Lead Crystal Batteries with EGE." Trying to find EGE was a bit more difficult but eventually I indeed found a chinese company who seems to actually build these batteries:
http://www.chinaege.com/copy_index_085724.html?chlang=&langid=2 (http://www.chinaege.com/copy_index_085724.html?chlang=&langid=2) they boast to own a number of patents, which is funny because china... but anyway! moving on. If you click around and select the energy-storage battery tape, lowe and behold http://www.chinaege.com/copy_2_128495_085724.html these battery types and images look pretty damn familiar!

There seems to be hope yet! The batteries are still being produced and shipped it seems as well, just a different company. Or is it?

The Dutch chamber of commerce information is freely available so let's see what they know about all this. If we take a look around there are two names/addresses that pop up a lot:
Apopka, FL 32703 United States and Boteyken 363, 3454 PD Utrecht, The Netherlands.
this link https://drimble.nl/bedrijf/de-meern/25862804/betta-batteries-europe-bv.html, which is in dutch but I am sure you can google translate it tells that:

the business was started on 2012-10-23
a company called honk invest was added as a board member
the capital of the limited liability company was changed to 10 euro's in 2014
and in september 2019 this honk was removed from the board members

when we scroll down we find 7 more companies registered on the same address. Green Rhino pops-up once again :) So let's see about that Honk then. A quick google found the (public) linkedin page of this man https://nl.linkedin.com/in/eric-van-honk-43a9116 and yes he was managing director of betta batteries and now is the CCO of green rhino. There is also the name Patrick Willemsen. If we dig around a bit we find this https://www.corporationwiki.com/Florida/Pensacola/patrick-c-willemsen-P1706512.aspx and it seems that indeed that follows back to apopka.

We can go into the individual sites, persons, etc. but let's keep it at this for now. The orlando consular corps website for instance is one big open dir and contains a lot of information shall we say.

I am not sure what to think of all this but the information thus far gathered, all public, nothing slanderous or anything, seems to indicate an interesting story. Btw, it took me longer to type this post than it took me to find this info.

I'll leave the conclusions to be made by the individual and will return to the original question/problem: what ever happened to betta and how can we keep access to the tech? Well, a quick search finds me a number of addresses locally that still sell the betta batteries but as I understand it, not so in australia. I reckon down here the brand betta will disappear as well as soon as stock is depleted. In australia I did find one company who still seems to carry the batteries: http://www.alphaenergy.com.au/Products/Lead-Crystal-Batteries they are not betta but simply sell the EGE branded batteries. I am not sure if they are part of the "betta problem" or will continue to carry the batteries, maybe someone local in .au can figure that one out for us?

Like I said before, I am not on some withchunt to figure out who is to blame, if this is a scam, a shady business or anything else, I just want us (myself included) to have access to this tech! I would not want to invest in a battery technology that is continuously plaged by copyright and patent trolling. I still have a bunch of free gel batteries at my disposal but soon (tm) I will have to replace them and choose a new tech. I do not like lithium as I said and of all the available battery types lead crystal seems to be the best option but if they are not readily available and remain so it would be a bit stupid to go that way :)

Cheers,
-P